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Levels are a system that was invented to ease character progression in pen & paper RPGs. You would only need to calculate and update your new stats when you reached the next level.
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This is a very good point, imo. One of the things I really liked about EVE was that even if you joined the game six months after your friends; you could still hook up with them and do something mutually beneficial, whereas with games like WoW you're nothing but a hindrance to your high-level friends 'til you catch up .. which can be a long time and very disheartening/dull. The other thing I liked about it was that you could play a few hours a week and still be as developed as people who played 40+. I just wish some company would make an avatar-based EVE in the fantasy genre, I'd play it like a shot. I couldn't agree more. Why has this game not been created? Not to mention that it has the best PvP system around. Someone needs to rip off the EVE system and stick it in a avatar/fantasy setting. |
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So far they are working finely on some of the current games that use them, so no, levels aren't a broken concept. Levels are a way of dosifying content, and for that, they make a good job, devs don't want their players to see everything there is as soon as they log in, devs want players to discover stuff as they progress through their levels. Would people run if there wasn't a white line to cross? Probably some with a true passion for running would, but most of the people need to know there is a white line to cross near to feel accomplished once they get there.
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Broken? No not necessarily. Boring? Yes most definitely.
I always compare games to SWG for the simple reason that it was better than any level based MMO will ever be. It offered me millions of choices that werent hampered by level or class restrictions. I could do or be whatever I wanted and use any equipment with my one dynamic character. I was able to dial in variable degrees of proficiency in a variety of skills without being married to them for the duration of the game.
Virtual worlds need that kind of open character development in order to thrive. It was the only time I ever encountered unique characters built around peoples individual play styles. It was the closest thing to pen and paper RPGs ever made and had it not been for the money grubbing companies that ran it I believe it would be a thriving successful game still.
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no it isn't. It's just unfortunate levels have such a rubbish implementation in mmos having to do an abundance of shit quests. |
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Are levels a broken concept? If personal character achievement is your idea of an MMO, then no, levels work quite well. If an interactive social world is your idea of an MMO, then personal character achievement in the form of levels just gets in the way. |
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Levels are needed in MMOGs but not in the way applied as lvl 132 beats lvl 70 (exemple WoW,not bashing ,using as the most common exemple). For exemple a rank that could show a player's skill or dedication without offering a huge bonus for obtaining it except some better looking stuff or slighty powerfuller skills. The concept of linear lvls is the most broken aspect of a MMOG,it makes games boring and bland after the first play threw (for me atleast),wich results more in a single player game with other people in your game world... like freelancer MP (except lvls in freelancer means nothing except the nr of creds u have and ships you killed and it's a fun free game) Tbh I wish all skill systems where like EVE,why ? because it caters to both casual and hardcore (ofcourse the flaw is the age old mith ,YOU WONT CATCH UP WAAAH) ... but couple this system with a aditional lvling system that involves direct skills like after you fought countless enemys and either defeated them or survived you get some insight on them and gain more combat effectivness. |
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Originally posted by Gishgeron
It goes deeper than that. The core system for D&D allowed for options against difficult odds. A kolbold could still land a crit against a level 20 player and deal damage. A level 1 player could, through diplomacy, tact, strategy, and probable use of precured magical items, still overcome a CR20 challenge. The very game itself was designed with options in mind. MMO gaming is, simply put, not. Without the wide array (and I mean &*^%ing wide array, I dare most of you to chew through the 15 some-odd possible books worth of base game options) of options...levels no longer serve to relate the player to his surroundings....they serve to limit the player to his surroundings, and above that, limit the surroundings to whatever controlled environment the designer chooses for them. When you hear players complaining about "lack of options" THIS is where that problem stems from. Its not just class options they are talking about (though many still refer to that due to lack of proper game experience) its the very foundation of what enables a player to do ANYTHING. D&D had a roll table for anything you could imagine. Hell, they even had a roll table to "create" a random dungeon...complete with cracks in the wall, puddles of feces, and sculptures. MMO gaming has no options at all to back up their "massive worlds". Levels are a good thing, but only when used in the context for which they were created.
You guys pretty much covered it. The MMO level system is really just a half-assed, bastardized version of what we had in PnP. And, when you think about it, this might be the best example of a pre-existing feature/design that just doesn't translate well to MMOs. In PnP, leveling was never "center stage". Players were into leveling and xp, but it was always secondary to the actual game. If we're being honest here, we have to admit that the level system in MMOs is really just a cheap form of content. In the old days, they could just drop in a bunch of mobs and watch the players grind their way through them for 6+ months. I can't imagine any thing cheaper or easier than that. Of course, these games are all quest based now, so I guess you can't say the level system is still in as cheap content. The only reason I can see for the level system now is motivation. The quests are all static and meaningless, so maybe you need levels/xp to encourage the players to actually keep grinding through the content.
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Originally posted by Kelathos Exactly. MMORPGs are based on computer RPGs and thus have character development at their core - they need not be level based though, but it's the model that people are most familiar with and thus grasp easily. Other types of MMOGs (MMOFPS, MMORTS, MMOwhatever) can skip or heavily tone down the leveling part of the game. --- |
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Originally posted by Kelathos
I would think that given the name "MMORPG" that it should have both, at least in theory. "I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me." |
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Lvls are not needed - and they are not good in many ways... But they are the easiest way for developers to build up the game - and the easiest way to get ppl hooked on the easy content and not much time needed to play into the harder content and more time consuming. Thus... Lvls are perfect... FOR DEVELOPERS. And many MMO players know this lvling concept by now... but it doesn't make good system... In fact it has been turning more and more into less about the actual content and more and more about just getting xp from some quests.... And... at the lvl cap you start to do daily quests... OVER and OVER again while 90% of the actual quests was done in few days. This is sad and Developers should really try to change this or find new ways of spreading quests out - Giving quests more meaning on how your character gets developed over longer time. My dream of a MMO would not have any lvls... It would be a game where you make choises and you will have to live by the choises you make with your character - not change it few days later. One way to do this is by building a game the classic good, evil and neutral. But... you deside it and based on this you will get certain skills and abilites to play with. THus you dont start good or bad .. (like horde or ally or destro and order). You start out as neutral and your action make you what you are in the game. Key part of this kinda gameplay would be reputation. Just like in games like WOW you can build up your reputation to gain certain things - but at the same time you would also destroy reputation with another faction. OFC there can be alot of factions on diffrent lvls of good and evil. But this is just my dream MMO =) But I agree with the guy that BUILDING A PVP ORIENTED GAME ON LVLS is HUGE FAILURE. In fact any Developer that does that should be rewarded as the most stupid in the buisness... Sadly... there are now 1000s of these ppl around.... allowing endless ganking based on LVLS rather than skills and true abilites. |
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Levels are not broken, they are a definition of the power of a character, monster or object. Leveling is what is broken. In DnD you created a character of sufficient level for the task at hand, rarely did you level from 1 to 20 through the course of a campaign.  |
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Nicoli
 Advanced Member
Joined: 8/14/06
Nicoli Voldkif |
Originally posted by bobfish
I never did what you said in Green, Okay a few times testing out modules for a guy who wrote them but besides that we always leveled our characters up from lvl 1 that way we have experiencing how our character started. A lot of stuff wrong with MMOs today come from the modules as raids mentality. You do a module and your done it something to be beaten. Nobody today wants to participate in a story they just want to be a module. |
Originally posted by bobfish
Go to a NPC and you get a quest for your "lvl". Note - then Im not talking about real lvls - Im talking about a sum of diffrent factors - including previous quests, reputation, Current items and spells you have picked up on your way... Lets think this as "real life". Your a knight and you go to your king and want to serve him. His advisors (NPC) takes one look at you and your equipments and realise that your not worth doing more than sweeping the floors atm... But while your sweeping the floors you find an intresting key on the floor... to a door .... And so on and so on... And you know what... this would work even BETTER for groups and raids in many ways. You group up with ppl from top ppl to beginners. The sum of your "lvls" gives you a quest (in a dungeon based on simualre to normal/heroic in WOW. The normal lvl 1 could then join up with a lvl 80 RL mate ... and both could benefit from it. Its very much possible. LVLs dont have to be a make or break of anything. Devs just look at it as easy way to build up the game.... After all thats the only thing they know on how to build up MMO games... |
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Originally posted by Frobner
Go to a NPC and you get a quest for your "lvl". Note - then Im not talking about real lvls - Im talking about a sum of diffrent factors - including previous quests, reputation, Current items and spells you have picked up on your way... Lets think this as "real life". Your a knight and you go to your king and want to serve him. His advisors (NPC) takes one look at you and your equipments and realise that your not worth doing more than sweeping the floors atm... But while your sweeping the floors you find an intresting key on the floor... to a door .... And so on and so on... And you know what... this would work even BETTER for groups and raids in many ways. You group up with ppl from top ppl to beginners. The sum of your "lvls" gives you a quest (in a dungeon based on simualre to normal/heroic in WOW. The normal lvl 1 could then join up with a lvl 80 RL mate ... and both could benefit from it. Its very much possible. LVLs dont have to be a make or break of anything. Devs just look at it as easy way to build up the game.... After all thats the only thing they know on how to build up MMO games...
Heres the issue with your idea, your situation would pretty much mean that players could access all the content of the game right away. So...once completed...whats keeping them in the game. Community can only go so far to keeping you in a game. Level grinds are there to keep people subscribed and paying, MMO's are business's not charities unfortunately. |
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Originally posted by ianicus
Heres the issue with your idea, your situation would pretty much mean that players could access all the content of the game right away. So...once completed...whats keeping them in the game. Community can only go so far to keeping you in a game. Level grinds are there to keep people subscribed and paying, MMO's are business's not charities unfortunately.
If content of a game is ONLY based on lvls then you would be right. But... content is not just the things you can explore you know... Sadly games like WOW have put that thought into all mmo gamers... Secondly - Reputation is the key.. NOT lvls... You have to build up reputation to get new quests.. go to new places and get new items and spells. And you know what - this makes OLD content reusable. You create new quests on "old" NPCs and simply increase the reputation lvl to go to new dungeons or new areas to do these quests. Why on earth do ppl think that "content" in MMOS is something you do in 1 week every 2 years like in WOW expansions? And then do daily quests for next 2 years... Yes... ppl pay sub for that... |
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Originally posted by Frobner
Heres the issue with your idea, your situation would pretty much mean that players could access all the content of the game right away. So...once completed...whats keeping them in the game. Community can only go so far to keeping you in a game. Level grinds are there to keep people subscribed and paying, MMO's are business's not charities unfortunately.
If content of a game is ONLY based on lvls then you would be right. But... content is not just the things you can explore you know... Sadly games like WOW have put that thought into all mmo gamers... Secondly - Reputation is the key.. NOT lvls... You have to build up reputation to get new quests.. go to new places and get new items and spells. And you know what - this makes OLD content reusable. You create new quests on "old" NPCs and simply increase the reputation lvl to go to new dungeons or new areas to do these quests. Why on earth do ppl think that "content" in MMOS is something you do in 1 week every 2 years like in WOW expansions? And then do daily quests for next 2 years... Yes... ppl pay sub for that...
Very good point. That's why I'd love to see an MMO with "zero progression" or "lateral progression". Find some thing other than levels to use as a content gate. This way, all characters are within a similar power range, but not all have access to the same content. You'd have to think that at some point, some one is going to do some thing like this. When they do, it's going to completely change the way we think about these games. |
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FPS have already done it. Take sniper rifle, shoot head...opponent DEAD!! It doesn't matter how long you've been playing or the other guy. The ONLY difference is actually hitting said player in the head. You know what? Most players don't play one FPS hours every night for month at a time. To be honest, its quite draining to do so. Once MMOs play like FPSs or a brawler like Virtua Fighter, where all numbers mean very little, you've just gotten what you wanted. However, enjoy getting your a$$ handed to you by every 14 yr oild, because THEY're going to be better than you no matter how much you play. Also,throw REAL progression out the window. Once you remove levels, you'll reach your max ability quite quickly. Probably a few weeks. After that, your personal ability can only take you so far. You'll need levels to take you farther...but you don't want that do you? MMOs, skills and level progression is the great equalizer. Anyone can compete for the most part. Of course personal skill, ability and knowledge play a part, but the numbers insure general balance. |
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Originally posted by Josher
Good post, I agree.
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Nicoli
Advanced Member
Joined: 8/14/06
Nicoli Voldkif |
Originally posted by Ihmotepp
Good post, I agree. There is a difference between having no levels the making a game purely player based skills. I play RPGs because I can't stand FPSs(Been there done that got the T-shirt in RL), I like letting my characters skills and stats decide what he can do. But I don't like being arbitrarily told Sorry this area isn't for you because you don't have XX number beside your name... EVe has shown that you can create a game where there is no arbitrary lvl restrictions that you can accomplish everything in a short time period, and you can play with anyone regardless of how old they are. Character abilities based on skills is the great equilizer in games... Levels are the great de-equilizer because it just forces everyone to be at max level or be left behind. Skill based games have to watch out and make sure that like eve there is lots of breadth but not much Depth in the skill chart other wise you still have levels just not called as such |
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To Josher and Imhoo. Skills and abilites dont have to be based on lvls tho. Now... Im talking in terms of PVE atm but ppl talking about MMOs as PVP and relying on lvls is just plain wrong.... IF ppl want to pvp it should be based on Equal abilites - ALWAYS. Not based on if your 14 year old or if you can play 5 hours per day to gain 10 more lvls to kill ppl that are lower lvls. LVLS and PVP are the LAST thing that should go together. Go play FPS shooter if you want to fight on skills. Until then hiding behind lvls and talking about 14 year old beeting you if not is kinda pathetic. WOW has done the worst thing possible that could happen to MMOs. It has created a gaming enviroment that is more about focusing on what others are doing than what your actually doing yourself. IMO MMOs should always be based on character progression - YOUR character progression... NOT other ppls character progression. BALANCE is a big word in MMOs... Thing is ... there is no perfect balance so why try to create it ? The job of the Devs should NOT be about getting ppl to lvl 80 and THEN create balance like is happening in WOW. Then the real journey... through many 5 mans content that some ppl will ONLY be playing is not balanced anyway ... I think MMOs need to turn away from the WOW thinking of MMOs. And PVP in MMOS should stay even further away. Imagine this MMO world for a sec.... 7 Kindoms. "Good to evil" based on whatever YOU think is good and evil. You start out as blank book. No predefined "hunter" or "warrior". You create that on your own journey. Tanking? Spanking? Healing? Buffing? Or all of this ? (for example you get the abilty to wear cloth and then "buy" (doing quest) the ability to wear mail when you could have bought the ability to do some magic dmg in cloth). And so on. Hard to balance ? Hmmm really ? balance what ? PPL playing PVE ? Its the Journey that matters. NOT the end product. The job of the devs is to create the journey - NOT the balance at the end of it. But why are Devs not doing it this way ? The simple answer is extra money.... It makes more money to be able to advertise a "Expansion" that gives this and this and this in 10 days than to gratually add it into a Supscribtion game... 7 Kindoms - you choose your path. You choose if you want to serve one (maybe becoming enemy to another) or to become a hired hand staying more neutral and grabing opertunities when possible. This is your choise. Another example. Think of LOTRO. Those characters were not all same "lvl"... But they all took on a certain task using their strengths on diffrent part of the journey. NOw... Not all journeys in MMOs need to be about saving the world... But they can still feel dam important. And like one of the hobbits said "Who would have belived that we - peacefull Hobbits would be ending up in an advenure like this one... Think about that for a beginner coming into a mmo game with real life friends and going on an adventure into a dungeon or to slay a Dragon. Think about that person 1 year later when he is bored to death ingame and desides to take another beginner on an adventure.. and actually gain something from it - cause yes... this way you actually COULD create content where long term players and beginners can go on a journey (the character that is carrying certain item needs to be "pure" but needs alot of protection). And BOTH could benefit from it. They would not HAVE to do it... Its just one more option you would have. LVLS are one way of thinking RPG. .... Oh wait... LVLs have actually NOTHING to do with RPG... When you start to think about it. RPG should be about something totally diffrent ... Totally. But again - this is my opinion ofc =) |
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Originally posted by Nicoli There is a difference between having no levels the making a game purely player based skills. I play RPGs because I can't stand FPSs(Been there done that got the T-shirt in RL), I like letting my characters skills and stats decide what he can do. But I don't like being arbitrarily told Sorry this area isn't for you because you don't have XX number beside your name... EVe has shown that you can create a game where there is no arbitrary lvl restrictions that you can accomplish everything in a short time period, and you can play with anyone regardless of how old they are. Character abilities based on skills is the great equilizer in games... Levels are the great de-equilizer because it just forces everyone to be at max level or be left behind. Skill based games have to watch out and make sure that like eve there is lots of breadth but not much Depth in the skill chart other wise you still have levels just not called as such
How do you take the system of EVE and turn that into a medieval game with Elves and Knights in armor, with bows and arrows and lightning spells? Especially the territory control. In EVE it's all about gear, which is spaceships. Would a fantasy game done like EVE be all about Armor?
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Originally posted by Ihmotepp There is a difference between having no levels the making a game purely player based skills. I play RPGs because I can't stand FPSs(Been there done that got the T-shirt in RL), I like letting my characters skills and stats decide what he can do. But I don't like being arbitrarily told Sorry this area isn't for you because you don't have XX number beside your name... EVe has shown that you can create a game where there is no arbitrary lvl restrictions that you can accomplish everything in a short time period, and you can play with anyone regardless of how old they are. Character abilities based on skills is the great equilizer in games... Levels are the great de-equilizer because it just forces everyone to be at max level or be left behind. Skill based games have to watch out and make sure that like eve there is lots of breadth but not much Depth in the skill chart other wise you still have levels just not called as such
How do you take the system of EVE and turn that into a medieval game with Elves and Knights in armor, with bows and arrows and lightning spells? Especially the territory control. In EVE it's all about gear, which is spaceships. Would a fantasy game done like EVE be all about Armor?
EVE is not all about ships only ... You can train your abilites to be able to use things that improve your ship (and so on) And it has nothing to do with how much you actually play. You can come online once a week and still progress your character. Not that Im suggesting this in Fantasy based game. But the options are endless. LVLs are based on Experience you gain. Why does that mean that when you hit X amount of exp that you will gain something ? Why not base it on Reputation? Or something totally diffrent. EVE has also pretty powerfull PVE questing system IF ppl are intrested in trying it. That system is build more up around my thinking of progression rather than to think "hooo IM lvl 10 and can now do this !!!!" ATM the fantasy MMOs iare just one big WOW world and noone seems to be thinking about how to take the genre forward. These things will not happen in next few months but eventually MMOs will be going more in this direction... When ppl realise that WOW clones is just anohter WOW lvl progress... |
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Nicoli
Advanced Member
Joined: 8/14/06
Nicoli Voldkif |
Originally posted by Ihmotepp
Well you have different skills for different weapons, shots, armor... Your character can eventually learn them all and use them but to do such you need to have equiped the right equipment... Cant use that frost spell with out a wand, and while you can wear heavy armor its going to cause trouble with you casting all the time. Territory contol is the easiest thing to convert... You have spots where keeps have been built before. Your group needs to go out claim the area and start getting resources to rebuild the keep. Of course things like Iron bronze are very plentiful all around the world including in the areas where the NPC realms are(the safer area). But if you want your miners to gather the stuff to make more rare metal swords and items you need to mine the resources out where the old ruin keeps are. Once your group rebuilds the keep you can start to build a city around it(hopefully something whith the customizability like Stronghold) where you can even begin to get NPC labors to do some of the work but you must make sure you can feed them and pay them. Then the entire game resolves around capturing these keeps. Sure you still have NPC to kill and you damn better make sure you watch out for your crafters because everything when you dies drops in either a Destroyed or damaged state so they are the only ones that can keep you constantly fitted out. Sure that isn't fluffed out but its not that hard to do. |
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Forcan
 Apprentice Member
Joined: 1/08/07
Nov. 15th 2005 |
Is the idea of Levels broken? Not necessary, but the way it is used in MMO right now is.
Think of it this way: You want to have personal character progression, that's fine. But it should not be the factor that separate players. Many time, in most MMO, I've seen friends that joined on separate time will never play together due to level differences. Levels as personal character progression is good, but it is bad for character power indicator (especially when level is a major factor in both PvE and PvP). Some of the ways to make sure you keep the personal progression in while leaving the character power indicator out is to make it voluntary, and design in a way that you gain titles and rewards instead of power over the levels.
What I mean is this: you can use level as character ranks. Let's say there is a game designed with 10 major rank, with 3 minor ranks in between each major one (except the first one, which is amateur/novice/beginner). That's still 27 ranks caps. Then you set up tests for PvE and PvP, and let the players to gain ranks by completing the tests. But this offers titles, rewards, reputation instead of it being a power indicator. This will first, create a system that will allow individuals to improve their characters with personal progression. Then for those who doesn't care for the rank, they are not "weaker" than those who are higher rank (normally), but just didn't do the tests.
This system, along with the skill-tree type system where each box will contain different power skills (no rank X skills, but just skills that you earned in whatever trees you choose), and then you can also incorporate the system where the players controls the stats (that is, as you gain skills, you also gain points to put into stats...) I would also suggest no stats modifier on weapons/armors, but just effects, and on higher rank weapons/armors, unique skills. This would better balance the playing field.
That's the design I'm working on, and I think this would be a better system than level 1 ~ level x with buying skills. Waiting: Star Wars: The Old Republic, FFXIV, Xenjo Journeys Online (Chinese MMO), Hero's Journey, Stargate Worlds, LEGO Universe, Earthrise, Warhammer 40k Online Current MMO: Aion, Champions Online Past MMO: SWG, Lineage 2, VCO, 9Dragon, SoF, Hero Online, RFO, PotBS, Perfect World, AoA, Cabal Online, Mabinogi, CoH/CoV, WAR, WoW, FFXI, Florensia Online, , TCoS, Dynasty Warrior Online (Chinese version), ESO, Shin Megami Tensei: Imagine (Eng and Chinese) |
