Originally posted by Bakoryo

Originally posted by Meridion

Originally posted by musicman2000

Sovrath my entire kinship is made up of married professionals who spare such time =P.   It's just that not a lot of us watch tv we choose to do this.   Many of us are couples that play together and this is how we spend time together.   If married couples can't spend 3 hours a day together then what's the point honestly?   I find your statement very much extreme -- people spend their time different ways -- 3 hours a day isn't that much.

 

when do you follow your sport? Cook? Help the kids with the homework? Clean? Go to the supermarket?

sure, if I had a wife that does the household during the day and kids that play alone for hours, let's go, but as things stand, if my partner comes home at 5-6pm, we still have to do housework, cook, buy stuff to eat/live, sometimes clean, you wanna go for a jog to prevent getting fat because of your MMORPG hobby that binds you in front of a PC-screen...

At least in my world I get some complete free time at 9pm. And as I have to get up at 6 I won't play till 3 am...

So if - on a regular day - I spend all my free time (which I don't because I like to play the guitar and read, but to each his own) in front of a PC I have 2 hours (normally from 9 to 11)... And I don't even have kids.

M

 

You should read what he said one more time..  Not everyone does grocery runs, cleans nor tend a sport every day. I know that i don't. Only weird people that are cleanfreaks cleans their house everyday <.<

 

And oh. On topic.

 

It's pretty casual, when i play it i feel no rush to do the things like in other games.

I read it many more times than just "one" more time.

And I am not putting any value judgement on how he and his wife spend his time. Since when I sit down and play I can easily spend 3 hours.

But again, all the married couples I know have really busy lives and I have never seen them have three hours per day to spend together in this fashion.

And no, when you have young children you do need to clean every day (er... cough... from my friends who have children that is... I DON'T clean every day).

edit; we are arguing semantics becasue it came up. It's not a bad question because what is considered casual? I think different people have different ideas about that. However, given the other games that are out there, LOTRO can be considered casual in my opinion.

Any game can be casual if the player wants it to be, but here's why I consider LOTRO to be *casual* whereas WoW, for example, is not. My brother plays WoW regularly (I used to play with him), and is currently in a raiding guild. In order to be eligible to participate in a given raid, he has to meet gear, spec and consumables requirements that required him to invest quite a bit of time on a regular basis. In addition, his performance in a raid is closely monitored, and if he screws up at all he can be dropped from the rotation. In LOTRO there is almost nothing like this. The only real gearing requirements are for The Watcher raid, which requires running a number of end-game instances to get 'Radiance' gear. But other than being level 60, there are no strict requirements for running these instances other than being a competent player. As a casual player, I can get into these end-game instances without too much trouble, but I could *never* put out the effort required for the end-game raiding in WoW. Some people enjoy these massive time sinks, and who am I to tell if they shouldn't? But I sure don't!

Originally posted by GaryM

Any game can be casual if the player wants it to be, but here's why I consider LOTRO to be *casual* whereas WoW, for example, is not. My brother plays WoW regularly (I used to play with him), and is currently in a raiding guild. In order to be eligible to participate in a given raid, he has to meet gear, spec and consumables requirements that required him to invest quite a bit of time on a regular basis. In addition, his performance in a raid is closely monitored, and if he screws up at all he can be dropped from the rotation. In LOTRO there is almost nothing like this. The only real gearing requirements are for The Watcher raid, which requires running a number of end-game instances to get 'Radiance' gear. But other than being level 60, there are no strict requirements for running these instances other than being a competent player. As a casual player, I can get into these end-game instances without too much trouble, but I could *never* put out the effort required for the end-game raiding in WoW. Some people enjoy these massive time sinks, and who am I to tell if they shouldn't? But I sure don't!

Actually I think your first assertion sort of conflicts with the assertion that WoW is not casual. Everyone who I know who plays an online game plays WoW (well, all but one come to think of it... he plays LOTRO).

None of them are hardcore players, nor do they bother with raiding. They play WoW with friends and family and that suffices.

Now, for me, I play WoW VERY casually. I have only one character made at the day of launch (though to be honest I fooled around with some others but only got them to about lvl 12) and that character is about lvl 35 or so.

The time I play Wow is sporadic at best (as a matter of fact I'm patching it up again now for a short jaunt) but I very much enjoy the time I do spend. However it's not quite epic enough to my tastes to play it for more than a bit here and there.

So I completely agree with you, any game can be casual, you just have to choose what you are going to have to go without.

Your brother doesn't have to be part of a raiding guild, I bet there are hundreds of guilds that are very casual that probably don't even raid.

Honestly any game can be played casually, just expect results vary.

What I've always found to be true is "casual" gamers play 0-2 hours a day, "core" gamers play 2-5 and "hardcore" play 6+. To that end it is completely legitimate to play successfully any game "casually" but just know the vast majority of gamers fall under the "core" group which has become the new market developers are now targeting.

The first time I ever hear the term "core" gamer was nearly 2 years ago in a dev blog with Paul Barnett. The title has seemed to stick with both Square and Blizzard devs using it most recently describe who they balance their content around. 

I would describe Lotro (and WoW) as a "core" game, one that can be completed at all levels of gameplay (endgame included) with around 2-5 hours a day on average within a decent amount of time.

Originally posted by Sovrath

Originally posted by GaryM

Any game can be casual if the player wants it to be, but here's why I consider LOTRO to be *casual* whereas WoW, for example, is not. My brother plays WoW regularly (I used to play with him), and is currently in a raiding guild. In order to be eligible to participate in a given raid, he has to meet gear, spec and consumables requirements that required him to invest quite a bit of time on a regular basis. In addition, his performance in a raid is closely monitored, and if he screws up at all he can be dropped from the rotation. In LOTRO there is almost nothing like this. The only real gearing requirements are for The Watcher raid, which requires running a number of end-game instances to get 'Radiance' gear. But other than being level 60, there are no strict requirements for running these instances other than being a competent player. As a casual player, I can get into these end-game instances without too much trouble, but I could *never* put out the effort required for the end-game raiding in WoW. Some people enjoy these massive time sinks, and who am I to tell if they shouldn't? But I sure don't!

 

Actually I think your first assertion sort of conflicts with the assertion that WoW is not casual. Everyone who I know who plays an online game plays WoW (well, all but one come to think of it... he plays LOTRO).

Oops, you're right, my choice of words was poor. What i meant was that WoW *can* be intense at the raiding level, whereas that aspect of play doesn't really exist much in LOTRO. WoW of course can be played casually, it's up to the individual. There are, however, many people who play WoW with a level of dedication that you will not find in LOTRO other than a few rare cases.

Originally posted by Meridion

3 hours per day is NOT casual - that's core gaming (3-6 hours/day), if you have a regular job and a family 3 hours per day is far from realistic, unless you sleep for 3 hours per night.

30 minutes per day average (like 3 hours once in 6 days) is casual...

M

 

EDIT: Oh, concerning the question. If in your mind 3 hours/day are casual you can bet your head that LotRO is a casual's game. You can do whatever comes your way (except the old raids) in a 3 hour block.

8 hour job + 8 hours of sleep = 8 more hours to do whatever. So how do you figure a family person cannot manage 3 of those 8 hours playing a game per day. I manage that and more at times just fine. You seem to forget that after a while family members prefer to spend time alone doing whatever it is they do.

Originally posted by Coloader

Originally posted by Meridion

3 hours per day is NOT casual - that's core gaming (3-6 hours/day), if you have a regular job and a family 3 hours per day is far from realistic, unless you sleep for 3 hours per night.

30 minutes per day average (like 3 hours once in 6 days) is casual...

M

 

EDIT: Oh, concerning the question. If in your mind 3 hours/day are casual you can bet your head that LotRO is a casual's game. You can do whatever comes your way (except the old raids) in a 3 hour block.

 

I think two/three hours a day is casual compared to other games like WoW.

WoW is 2-3 hours too. In fact, I spend 4-6 hours a week playing WoW now that I'm lvl 80 and only raid. You have 6 days to complete a raid before it resets. Naxx, the longest raid at lvl 80 takes 4-6 hours on average, 2-3 if you have it on farm. Remember, you can split that 4-6 hours up over 7 days. So again, how is WoW not casual friendly?

Originally posted by musicman2000

The game is what you make of it -- up to this point the game has focuss'd far more on casual details that allowed for a great RP system etc.  Housing, cosmetic clothing etc.    Although as the story line progresses I'm sure there will be more things that are considered *hardcore*

2 to 3 hours a day is plenty for this game.    The top end raids have all had a lock system that means you can go in clear up to a certain part in one night and come back and start where you left off the next night so that makes it easier.

I'd echo that 3 or 4 hours a day isn't hardcore imho -- I am married, have 2 jobs and children and that's about how much I play.   Then again -- I don't watch much tv if at all.    You'll generally find the average north american watches 2 to 4 hours of tv a day -- I play games for that time.  It's all the same hehe -- how you spend your leisure time.

IMO hardcore would be 6 to 8 hours a day -- and the devs have made it so this level of playing isn't necessary to progress through all content between updates.    FOrtunately there is a ton of replay value to the content imho but at 6 to 8 hours or more a day I think you'll find that you'll be repeating so much of the content on such a regular basis that you may need to find other ways of spending your time.  PvMP, crafting, RPing or another game to fill in the gaps.    There still are is a good chunk of the community that plays that much, but I'd say the bulk of the LOTRO community plays 3 or 4 hours a day.

I completely agree with you. In 2002, when I started playing, it was the general concensus that 6+ hours a day was hardcore and 3 and less was casual. 4-5 was about average back then.

Originally posted by Sovrath

Originally posted by Coloader

Originally posted by Meridion

3 hours per day is NOT casual - that's core gaming (3-6 hours/day), if you have a regular job and a family 3 hours per day is far from realistic, unless you sleep for 3 hours per night.

30 minutes per day average (like 3 hours once in 6 days) is casual...

M

 

EDIT: Oh, concerning the question. If in your mind 3 hours/day are casual you can bet your head that LotRO is a casual's game. You can do whatever comes your way (except the old raids) in a 3 hour block.

 

I think two/three hours a day is casual compared to other games like WoW.

 

That may or may not be true but 3 hours per day is not casual. No married person with children or professional person that I know could spare such time.

No offense to your friends, but they have poor time management skills. 3 hours a day is easy to manage with a career and a family. I don't know any family that spends 5 hours together doing something every day. I think a family that does would get sick of each other before the week is over with.

Originally posted by Meridion

Originally posted by musicman2000

Sovrath my entire kinship is made up of married professionals who spare such time =P.   It's just that not a lot of us watch tv we choose to do this.   Many of us are couples that play together and this is how we spend time together.   If married couples can't spend 3 hours a day together then what's the point honestly?   I find your statement very much extreme -- people spend their time different ways -- 3 hours a day isn't that much.

 

when do you follow your sport? Cook? Help the kids with the homework? Clean? Go to the supermarket?

sure, if I had a wife that does the household during the day and kids that play alone for hours, let's go, but as things stand, if my partner comes home at 5-6pm, we still have to do housework, cook, buy stuff to eat/live, sometimes clean, you wanna go for a jog to prevent getting fat because of your MMORPG hobby that binds you in front of a PC-screen...

At least in my world I get some complete free time at 9pm. And as I have to get up at 6 I won't play till 3 am...

So if - on a regular day - I spend all my free time (which I don't because I like to play the guitar and read, but to each his own) in front of a PC I have 2 hours (normally from 9 to 11)... And I don't even have kids.

M

To put it another way, what are you doing while everyone else in the house is watching sitcoms and playing by themselves for several hours everyday?

Originally posted by GaryM

Any game can be casual if the player wants it to be, but here's why I consider LOTRO to be *casual* whereas WoW, for example, is not. My brother plays WoW regularly (I used to play with him), and is currently in a raiding guild. In order to be eligible to participate in a given raid, he has to meet gear, spec and consumables requirements that required him to invest quite a bit of time on a regular basis. In addition, his performance in a raid is closely monitored, and if he screws up at all he can be dropped from the rotation. In LOTRO there is almost nothing like this. The only real gearing requirements are for The Watcher raid, which requires running a number of end-game instances to get 'Radiance' gear. But other than being level 60, there are no strict requirements for running these instances other than being a competent player. As a casual player, I can get into these end-game instances without too much trouble, but I could *never* put out the effort required for the end-game raiding in WoW. Some people enjoy these massive time sinks, and who am I to tell if they shouldn't? But I sure don't!

Your friend should join a new server/guild. I raid and don't have to put up with that at all. You get good enough gear as you do regular dungeons runs and heroics. What you described is a maximizing things to be the best in  a raid. I'm sure you can maximize the same way in LoTRO if the community chose to do so.

But the people I raid with every Satruday don't have any requirements. Obviously you should know your role and be compitent. Obviously you should have done the instances and heroics that take no more than 1.5 hours to do each once you become 80 and why wouldn't you? All of those instances and Heroics in WoW are content that's available to do, so why not do them?

I play both WoW and LoTRO and both are games that cater to the casual player, EVEN the raiding! Things you describe is a fault of the community, not the game.

Generally if I find my self watching TV I ask, "could I be doing something more productive like leveling in FFXI and Lotro, running a heroic with my fiancee in WoW, or blowing the hell out of Gallente scum in EvE?".

You'd be suprised how much an average person watches TV a day  (non-sports that is since football/basketball/baseball I consider productve time).

I never understood the whole 'You play games SO  HARDCORE YOU ARE LOOOOOOOOSER LOL!!" arguement that some people make, especially when they themselves tend to have equally time-intensive hobbies (sports fans come to mind, lots of people watch TV for at least that much time every day, Facebook, etc)

Doesn't seem so bad for the younger folk but I'm 30 and I don't tell a soul I play MMOs in my spare time, it's so stigmatized.  Doesn't hurt my work performance and my house stays clean though, so they stay clueless since I'm not fat, dress reasonably well, and don't have cheetoh dust all over everything.  Quite depressing, really.

Originally posted by Thradar

 2-3 hours a day (14-21 hours a week) is far from casual.  Good grief, someone has really raised the bar if they think spending 20 hours a week playing a game is casual.  What't hardcore these days?  60+ hours a week? 

So someone who watches 1 movie a day of the week is a hardcore movie fan ? Don't think so :P

So why a 2h/day gamer is considered hardcore? :S

For me hardcore is when you play daily and 4+ hrs/day... Close to become a part time job :D

 Any life activity can be as hardcore or casual as you make it.  There are sports fans that MUST have season tickets, tailgate parties, tape the other games, etc., Same goes for gamers - some feel the NEED to be in a top raiding guild and spend oodles of time raiding/gearing/raiding/gearing.  That is their deal!

I've found any MMO that I've tried is what you make it.  As I tell people in-game, we all pay to be here so how you choose to play is up to you, same as how I choose to is up to me!  I consider myself hardcore/casual in that I would LIKE to play daily for 4-5 hours at a time, but can't!  I honor my life commitments (family/work, etc.) first and gaming fits in around that.  I do not watch TV or rarely and that is what works for me.

LoTRO, WoW, etc., if you feel the cumpulsion to power level and can not enjoy the game until you are level capped well that is your way.  I don't care if or how fast I level as I like seeing the game content and the wonderful worlds the devs have made for our entertainment.

Bottom-line MMO's and gaming are just an alternative form of entertainment and shouldn't be confused for a life, or a job - not IMHO at least!

Originally posted by JK-Kanosi

Originally posted by Sovrath

Originally posted by Coloader

Originally posted by Meridion

3 hours per day is NOT casual - that's core gaming (3-6 hours/day), if you have a regular job and a family 3 hours per day is far from realistic, unless you sleep for 3 hours per night.

30 minutes per day average (like 3 hours once in 6 days) is casual...

M

 

EDIT: Oh, concerning the question. If in your mind 3 hours/day are casual you can bet your head that LotRO is a casual's game. You can do whatever comes your way (except the old raids) in a 3 hour block.

 

I think two/three hours a day is casual compared to other games like WoW.

 

That may or may not be true but 3 hours per day is not casual. No married person with children or professional person that I know could spare such time.

 

No offense to your friends, but they have poor time management skills. 3 hours a day is easy to manage with a career and a family. I don't know any family that spends 5 hours together doing something every day. I think a family that does would get sick of each other before the week is over with.

no offense taken, though I think it is a matter of "what is important".

People don't get out of their jobs until about 5:00 to 6:30 (sometimes 7:00).

They then have to make it home and the commute can be from 30 minutes to an hour.

so we are talking about 5:30 to 7:30 minimum though that is a large gap of 2 hours.

I think about 6:30 will be average. So if you were to start gaming as you came home you are talking about gaming until 9:30. But there is dinner, helping kids with homework, picking them up from an activity perhaps, finishing up work from your job if your job is inclined to have that type of thing, etc.

So sure, one can game 3 hours per day but it seems that you would have to go later in the evening if you were to actually do this.

And we are not talking about 1 on 1 with the spouse as I assume that people are going to want some of that too.

Unless you are staying up late regardless of how early you need to get up, I don't see how 3 hours is going to fit into anyone's life unless they have nothing at all going on in their lives.

Most people I know practice, take classes, have heavier jobs that require working at home, they actually are involved with their kid's homework and projects and taking them to and fro, making dinner, catching up with the day with their spouse, possibly some alone time with the spouse, etc.

If they are to get home at 7:00 and start gaming that takes you right until 10:00. That's pretty late for many married people with children who have things to do.

So I don't think it has anything to do with time management but what you have going on in your life.

It's not my place to start evaluating how much time a person needs with his/her spouse or children as that is personal. But 3 hours of just gaming seems like a lot given all that a couple has to do. Maybe on the weekends but every night?

Or maybe I just know people who are far busier and just don't have the time for such things. All I know is that I'm a 41 year old man who lives a bit of a different life from other people my age. When I talk about my evenings and weekends I get anything from "where did you find the time to see one movie let alone see it again right after with the commentary" to gentle scoffing because my life plays out more like the life of a college kid.

Meanwhile I see these people living very busy and seemingly full lives juggling kids and career and their relationships.

So I don't see how 3 hours per day would be anything other than an inconvenience.

Good post Sovrath, it really helped bring things in to perspective of what it's like later on in life. I've got a while to go before any of that might become reality XD.

Originally posted by leinad312

Good post Sovrath, it really helped bring things in to perspective of what it's like later on in life. I've got a while to go before any of that might become reality XD.

Well thank you very much.

Though I do have to repeat that your life is what you make of it. I don't have these issues as I've dedicated my life to writing, writing music, and essentially enjoying myself while mitigating stress. There are no children upcoming in my life unless it's "Uncle Sovrath is coming and he's so quirky" type of stuff.

But the "average" (and that's a hard one to get around as there is a lot that goes into that) person just has a lot of stuff going on.

Just comes down to what you want to put your time into.

if you want to sit and play computer games all day, do so. if you want to play sport and play computer games now and again, do that.

if you want to eat Mcdonalds, do so. if you want to cook and eat well prepared and healthy food, do that.

if you want to stick your kids infront of a tv, do so. if you want to nurture and guide their up bringing, do that.

if you want to spend the time with your wife communicating through computers, do so. if you want to talk and communicate and get down the old fashioned way, do that.

if your fat, easily fatigued, have socially retarded kids with a similar phisique to yourself and havent got your leg over since your youngest was conceived, you chose "do so" to many times! but then again, if thats what you were aiming for, congratz.

I'm afraid all the man points go to the other guy, you could have been.

Originally posted by Sovrath

 

no offense taken, though I think it is a matter of "what is important".

People don't get out of their jobs until about 5:00 to 6:30 (sometimes 7:00).

They then have to make it home and the commute can be from 30 minutes to an hour.

so we are talking about 5:30 to 7:30 minimum though that is a large gap of 2 hours.

I think about 6:30 will be average. So if you were to start gaming as you came home you are talking about gaming until 9:30. But there is dinner, helping kids with homework, picking them up from an activity perhaps, finishing up work from your job if your job is inclined to have that type of thing, etc.

So sure, one can game 3 hours per day but it seems that you would have to go later in the evening if you were to actually do this.

And we are not talking about 1 on 1 with the spouse as I assume that people are going to want some of that too.

Unless you are staying up late regardless of how early you need to get up, I don't see how 3 hours is going to fit into anyone's life unless they have nothing at all going on in their lives.

Most people I know practice, take classes, have heavier jobs that require working at home, they actually are involved with their kid's homework and projects and taking them to and fro, making dinner, catching up with the day with their spouse, possibly some alone time with the spouse, etc.

If they are to get home at 7:00 and start gaming that takes you right until 10:00. That's pretty late for many married people with children who have things to do.

So I don't think it has anything to do with time management but what you have going on in your life.

It's not my place to start evaluating how much time a person needs with his/her spouse or children as that is personal. But 3 hours of just gaming seems like a lot given all that a couple has to do. Maybe on the weekends but every night?

Or maybe I just know people who are far busier and just don't have the time for such things. All I know is that I'm a 41 year old man who lives a bit of a different life from other people my age. When I talk about my evenings and weekends I get anything from "where did you find the time to see one movie let alone see it again right after with the commentary" to gentle scoffing because my life plays out more like the life of a college kid.

Meanwhile I see these people living very busy and seemingly full lives juggling kids and career and their relationships.

So I don't see how 3 hours per day would be anything other than an inconvenience.

You're 41 years old with friends probably around that age too. While I do have some friends around that age that play MMORPG's (online friends), I think most people that play MMORPG's aren't that age.

I for one am 28 years old. My son is 6. He doesn't have homework, activities, or anything like that. We're also a military family, so my wife gets out of work around 4pm. I'm a college man, for now, so like I said before, I have plenty of time myself.

There's plenty of adult parents with lives as peculiar as mine I guess, that we are able to afford 3 hours a day quite easily for gaming. However, if I look into the future when I become an accountant in 2 years, I probably won't have that kind of time anymore for games, and maybe no time at all.

Your friends are in a different stage of life than most adult parent gamers, so it's easy to see why we are getting confused here. I also only have one child, that plays a part as well.