The premise that a company has no control over its employees, divisions and projects just because they have already spent some money is flawed.  You act like NCSoft was powerless to stop RG from making drastic changes to the game that nullified millions of dollars and years of work.

I don't care what the press covered to be honest.  It is not their job nor expectation to make sure TR is a succesful product.  That is a point you seem to not understand is the responsibility of NCSoft.  Garriot was acting like a circus clown and they covered the stories.  That is how american media works.  Do you think NCSoft was relying on the media of another nation to manage their project, because that is what you seem to be presenting.

Any company can fire their game designers, for changes on the direction of the game, scrap a project or start a new one.  They are ultimately the final decision makers.  If NCSoft gave tons of money to someone who was not working at all AND ruined years/millions of their investment it is absurd to think they retained his services further.  Let alone offer to give him millions on top of that for a publicity stunt. 

Again, nothing you have said makes sense when combined. For what you claim to be true NCSoft would have to just throw money time and time again at the Garriots despite watching him ruin the project and all things logical. 

 We are arguing at cross-purposes.  The simple fact: NcSoft trusted too much to the Brand Name and provided  too little oversight from Seoul.   

 Once they invested, they had the choice of firing the executives and losing all the original investment, or proceeding with the hope that it would work out.  

Trust is a powerful thing in the business world.  I read a lot of financial news, and misplaced trust can bring down a lot of smart and powerful  businessmen.    

While it is not the mission of business media to manage business, they are supposed to be providing facts for the investing public.  A press that fawns over a "star" is one that never asks pertinent questions.  

Alright guys, after hours of brainstorming, I have finnaly figured it all out. Richard Garriot must've been reincarnated from a Bumble Bee. You see, sometimes, they bring honey back to the hive. And sometimes, they just don't. Probably becuase they decided to search for honey elsewhere for awhile. Richard Garriot was able to make some great games, but once he decided to try something different, he wasn't able to deilver. So if he goes back to doing what he originally did, which is what seems to be the case currently, then he will deliver gaming goodness once again.

Richard garriott was a pioneer in the mmo industry, one of the best.

Look at the guys that created the diable hit also created the trash hellgate london (ex-diablo devs)

He could still come out with a gem in the end, be interesting to wait and see.

Originally posted by sancher36

Richard garriott was a pioneer in the mmo industry, one of the best first.

Fixed that for you.
 

Originally posted by Death1942

the guy is a tool.  I have 0 respect for anyone who sticks their name on a product that took a TEAM years to develope.  Its like at the end of a long season of sport and you win the grand final only you Captain keeps the trophy and any mentions/photos in the paper are of him and no one else.

 

anyway it would be nice if he looked at himself in the mirror and see that he is no longer a decent developer

wow thats pretty harsh.

btw i thought he went to space? how he gonn make another game?

Originally posted by coldfreedom

Originally posted by Death1942

the guy is a tool.  I have 0 respect for anyone who sticks their name on a product that took a TEAM years to develope.  Its like at the end of a long season of sport and you win the grand final only you Captain keeps the trophy and any mentions/photos in the paper are of him and no one else.

 

anyway it would be nice if he looked at himself in the mirror and see that he is no longer a decent developer

 

wow thats pretty harsh.

btw i thought he went to space? how he gonn make another game?

Space trips are not usually one way. He had a round trip ticket and came home.
 

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Originally posted by Wolfdor
I guess Garriott wants to take a trip down to the Titanic or something and needs more cash from some sucker company to make it happen.
I wish some company would give Raph Koster that money instead. :)

---

Richard Garriott belongs in the trash like the rest of those knob heads at Failcom

Originally posted by kinglee

 We are arguing at cross-purposes.  The simple fact: NcSoft trusted too much to the Brand Name and provided  too little oversight from Seoul.   

 Once they invested, they had the choice of firing the executives and losing all the original investment, or proceeding with the hope that it would work out.  

Trust is a powerful thing in the business world.  I read a lot of financial news, and misplaced trust can bring down a lot of smart and powerful  businessmen.    

While it is not the mission of business media to manage business, they are supposed to be providing facts for the investing public.  A press that fawns over a "star" is one that never asks pertinent questions.  

Why would NCSoft lose anything if they fired either Garriot?  It isn't like they would walk away with tabula rasa as if they own it.  NCSoft could replace either of them with another employee and continue the project in whatever direction they chose.  It isn't like they lost their other titles when Lee left the company is it?

As for trust, sure all companies need to operate at certain levels of trust and delegation.  However, for what you claim to have happened would require NCSoft to have almost zero oversight or involvement with the Garriots.  What company of this size would hand over the majority of their capital and have no direction on how it is spent, invested or operated?  If anything it suggests they were very much in touch with the goings on.  So much that it makes sense NCSoft pulled the trigger on the design changes behind the original TR to the space shooter it is now.

Does it make any sense at all for NCSoft to hand over so much money and just sit back while the Garriots make such detrimental changes to the game?  There is no way possible that happened without NCSoft being involved. 

I have yet to hear one compelling reason how the Garriots could possibly be responsible for the direction shift in the game.  Furthermore I have yet to hear one compelling reaons why they would want to do that.

I've seen other companies screw over their developers who are making games and the end result being a train wreck.  I've seen games change direction when faced with the current market all based on what some analyists, focus groups and marketing people tell the executives.  I have never seen a game designer change the entire focus of a project without the approval and direction of the company CEOs. 

Could a can engineer who works for Ford one day change his minivan project to motorcycles for whatever reason he might have?  As if Ford would have no choice but to allow the person to continue with motorcycles, because they have spent so much money already?

Like I have said, nothing you say makes sense when examined. Someone forced major changes on this game and odds are very good it wasn't either of the Garriots.  

Again with the media.  They have no bearing on what happened and can be easily blacked out if a company so wishes.

Why would NCSoft lose anything if they fired either Garriot? It isn't like they would walk away with tabula rasa as if they own it. NCSoft could replace either of them with another employee and continue the project in whatever direction they chose. It isn't like they lost their other titles when Lee left the company is it?

You would have to go back to 2001 and see how the investments started.  The brothers had started Destination Games on a shoestring, a very small outfit for a mmorpg.  NcSoft came in and offered to buy their studio and a game with the proviso that the Garriotts provide their KNOW-HOW.  This word is used specifically in the early financials and tax disclosures.  This sum, cash and options, could be as much as eighty million dollars.  This is before a single cent was spent on game development, salaries, building, etc.  

Are you familiar with the expression..."in too deep" ?  How about "point of no return"?  These phrases in Western English are about the situation one finds oneself in when committed to something so deeply that to quit would be costlier than to keep going.  You go on a hike, it starts getting dark...do you try to go back or do you have to make camp?   I don't know how many ways I can say it to help you understand the position NcSoft got itself into.

If they fired the Garriotts early, they would have to give up their "knowhow" and the brand name.  Plus the company would have had to put up with all the fans howling and squawking that once again the great genius artist was not allowed the freedom to implement his legendary visionary creative signature legend.  Remember when EA got disgusted and canned him?  All the whining and caterwauling of the gamers that their precious Lord had been dissed?  

Now, you can criticize NcSoft for being naive.   I think that early on there should have been some Korean managers in Austin who displayed no sense of humor at Richard's antics.

But when you extend trust, the person holding that trust has some certain moral obligations.  In a better word, it's called "honor."  It means when you're paid for your best effort, you ought to give that best effort and not spend all day playing.  At least, that is the point of view of this possibly old-fashioned poster.   You see the word in the papers these days with all the failing banks..."Due Diligence."

So I hold the Garriotts more responsible than NcSoft.  The Seoul CEO got lost in Never Land, but Peter pan let him down.

If you don't think they owed their investors anything--I guess I don't understand that point of view.

And, worse, turned around and insulted his former investor with this article in the BBC.

As I said early in this thread, it is more than obnoxious after Garriott lets down his game, his fans, and his company...that he should get on the phone with this interviewer and make nauseating praise of Blizzard!  Blizzard  didn't give the Garriotts the gigantic opportunity that NcSoft di.  Not in seven years has Richard has as kind of words as he has given to Blizzard.  If I was the CEO Seoul, this would be the final straw.

What a suck-up!!  He's trying to attract their attention with this interview.  

Originally posted by kinglee

Are you familiar with the expression..."in too deep" ?  How about "point of no return"?  These phrases in Western English are about the situation one finds oneself in when committed to something so deeply that to quit would be costlier than to keep going.  You go on a hike, it starts getting dark...do you try to go back or do you have to make camp?   I don't know how many ways I can say it to help you understand the position NcSoft got itself into.

 

Just read that paragraph right there.  In any instance of this example WHO gets to make that decision about how to salvage the game IF it needs salvaging.  Who gets to call the shots?

Your position is that NCSoft was somehow powerless or incapable of stopping the Garriots when you string together a series of unrelated events and situations. 

My ONLY points are:

• That I doubt the Garriots made the decision to make the drastic change to tabula rasa
• This drastic change to the game that caused its downfall.
• Due to the nature of these chanes we cannot determine if RG is awesome or terrible since we will never see what he wanted to design.

You on the other hand want to use any instance of whatever to somehow jump to the conclusion that the Garriot brothers had complete unbridled control over the largest, most expensive project that could cripples NCSofts future.  I am not the one who is painting NCSoft as niave in this situation, that would be you. 

Everything you point out says that RG was lazy, didn't work, was busy playing millonaire playboy and it was well documented by the media for everyone to see... except NCSoft it would seem.  Your final conclusion is that NCSoft was in to deep financially to actually take any actions?  Strangely enough that is exactly the type of thing a company would do when they completely scrap a project and redesign it. 

As for you Electronic Arts example.  That is exactly the type of thing EA does.  They buy up software companies and grind them into shit.  Again RG might have been past his prime, but who knows for sure since there is a long history of EA ruining companies they buy. 

In the end tabula rasa was just another shallow boring game just like most of NCSofts games.  In this case I have to go with the trends and say tabula rasa is in line with an game from NCSoft and there are many examples of executives ruining their mmos, despite having past big name talent.

Can you explain why you think RG COULD and WOULD make the drastic changes to the design of the game?  There seems to be little opportunity or motive for them to do so.

Heres a link that might help your understanding of the redesign.

Gamasutra - Redesigning T.R

That article reads to me as though
- Too many high level talents
- Designed for both Eastern & Western markets that failed to please either
- R.G pushed on hoping it would come together but it didnt.

The game was cancelled and restarted in 2004. T.R is what you get when you spend 3.5 years on a AAA title instead of 5.

I read an article saying the Garriott brothers had put 2 million into starting up Destination Games. Hardly chump change. When EA released most of the origins staff to industry (Fired) they hired them, then needed a backer to provide the funding - enter NCSoft stage right.

---

Inking Garriott was certainly a bold investment for NCsoft, which spent 43 billion won to acquire the American's company, Destination Games, in 2001 and allocating 2.06 million shares in stock options to him, his brother Robert, and other Destination employees.

By adding Garriott, the company hoped to enhance its profile among Western gamers as it looked to further expand to the lucrative markets of North America and Europe.

---

 http://www.zachtheatre.org/stages/extreme_voyage.html

 allocating 2.06 million shares in stock options to him, his brother Robert, and other Destination employees.

You rather rushed past the stock options.  Today's stock price is about $57.  

2,06,000  X $57 + ??     $117,000,000

 However, the stock has been as much as $90, and hit a low this fall 2008.

I really don't think RG has done anything truly oustanding since UO in 1997, but I wouldn't label the guy a failure; he's worked on some decent stuff since.

But yeah, Tabula Rasa. I loved the concept, enjoyed what little of the game there was, but if I was going to hang my name on a project, I'd make damn sure that it was an outstanding one, and TR just wasn't.

The real question is what those shares were worth in 2001. I have no idea how to check that.

I did see a interview when i was hunting where RG said they were undervalued in 2001 so they and employees bought shares.

 Stock options are tricky for average people (like me) to understand.  There's an explanation by wiki which is not very helpful.

But when I read of executive compensation, salary is meaningless compared to what an executive walks away with in stock options.  This is where the real money is.  It's also a great tax break!  A salary is taxed at full, but options are sold like a capital gain, 15%.  You must hold the stock for a certain time, depending on the contract.

There was a big selloff October 30, 2007 when TR was released.  It's likely that was agreed to--being allowed to sell the stock on the date of release of the game.   It makes sense that NcSoft might have made a selloff contingent on the game's release. That was also the same time the space trip was in the news.  It could be that Richard needed the money to pay the Russians, so that may have pushed up the date of the release of the game so he could exercise his options.

I keep reading here that NcSoft may have forced a premature release of the game.  However, the timing of the selloff and the news of the space trip provide an indication that it was RG who may have been the most interested in getting the game released when it was.

At last I checked on NcSoft.net, Robert Garriott still holds 350,000 shares of stock.  The stock's price has  gone up quite a bit since Richard quit.

in a sense, it's a black sheep in the game. with it, you only get  involved in the trouble. dispell it.  it may  also fail the game. woops.

Originally posted by trickyjoker

in a sense, it's a black sheep in the game. with it, you only get  involved in the trouble. dispell it.  it may  also fail the game. woops.

What?

Originally posted by Roosevelt

This is Tabula Rasa as of 2004 www.youtube.com/watch

 

Now just try and imagine that they had to scrap everything they had combat and animation wise and work from the start again. The older version of TR looked much better to me and much more unique. There was also player housing from the start (You can see RG talking about it in a another video) and they had plans for a deep crafting system. Trust me the blame should be on NCsoft no RG.

I remember thinking the original TR looked very cool. Had this cool "ethereal-fantasy" feel to it and seeing that video really brought that back.

Then I learned they'd scrapped the original design and went with what was eventually released. I never could get to like the new version.

Really makes me wonder what TR would have been like if they stuck with the original design.

Why do you guys incessantly bash a guy who has done so much for the gaming community... He worked on one of the greatest RPG franchises in history and paved the way for MMORPG's to be what they are today. Ultima Online was great and I'm glad he's getting back to his roots. I'd personally like to see a new fanatsy MMO that wasn't easymode and more of a sandbox style game. Hopefully he steers down that path again. He was associated with one bad game... big deal. If he leaves a trail of fail then yeah go ahead and bash him all you want.

And tell me if you had the chance to go to space that you wouldn't do it? I'd love to at some point in my life. Who can blame the guy for doing something he has always wanted to do? I'm sure you all have dreams...

Originally posted by Chasentail

Why do you guys incessantly bash a guy who has done so much for the gaming community... He worked on one of the greatest RPG franchises in history and paved the way for MMORPG's to be what they are today. Ultima Online was great and I'm glad he's getting back to his roots. I'd personally like to see a new fanatsy MMO that wasn't easymode and more of a sandbox style game. Hopefully he steers down that path again. He was associated with one bad game... big deal. If he leaves a trail of fail then yeah go ahead and bash him all you want.

And tell me if you had the chance to go to space that you wouldn't do it? I'd love to at some point in my life. Who can blame the guy for doing something he has always wanted to do? I'm sure you all have dreams...

While I agree bashing him for one failure is silly, his decision to go to space and spend a good chunk of the first and only year of TR getting ready for his space trip was poor form. His game failed while he was getting ready for something else.

Originally posted by Rokurgepta

Originally posted by Chasentail

Why do you guys incessantly bash a guy who has done so much for the gaming community... He worked on one of the greatest RPG franchises in history and paved the way for MMORPG's to be what they are today. Ultima Online was great and I'm glad he's getting back to his roots. I'd personally like to see a new fanatsy MMO that wasn't easymode and more of a sandbox style game. Hopefully he steers down that path again. He was associated with one bad game... big deal. If he leaves a trail of fail then yeah go ahead and bash him all you want.

And tell me if you had the chance to go to space that you wouldn't do it? I'd love to at some point in my life. Who can blame the guy for doing something he has always wanted to do? I'm sure you all have dreams...

 

While I agree bashing him for one failure is silly, his decision to go to space and spend a good chunk of the first and only year of TR getting ready for his space trip was poor form. His game failed while he was getting ready for something else.

Poor form, yeah. No argument there, he just had his heart set on something else and it was obvious. Hopefully he puts his heart into the next game and at least some of us can enjoy it. If not I'm sure WoW will be around for many more years =/

 Who can blame the guy for doing something he has always wanted to do? I'm sure you all have dreams...

Sometimes I have to wonder, do any of you work for a living, or are you all still kids living at home with your parents?   Do any of you know what it's like to run a business, and risk your own time and money in investing?  

Can you afford an expensive luxury like the "dreams" of a selfish, lazy  and infantile fifty-year old man?

Do you read the news?  Do you see banks tumbling down, the taxpayers being put into years of debt to try to shore up failing businesses, and executives walking away with hundreds of millions of dollars in return for driving a business into bankruptcy?

Real people took a big chance on Richard Garriott because people like you said you wanted a game.  Now that they've lost their investment, you want to praise a guy who had a dream...only the dream wasn't to make a great game.