Are we dragging Blizzard into this now? As far as I know they do not do MT?

Once one of the big companies starts doing this I will be concerned about it, till then a few rain drops won’t hurt. I would certainly post my oposition on my games forums mind you. If a game I play does MT’s in a way I find unacceptable, then it’s out with the umbrella and off to a new game.

This topic is a bit like talking about the weather, it never ends.

Originally posted by Scot

Are we dragging Blizzard into this now? As far as I know they do not do MT?

Once one of the big companies starts doing this I will be concerned about it, till then a few rain drops won’t hurt. I would certainly post my oposition on my games forums mind you. If a game I play does MT’s in a way I find unacceptable, then it’s out with the umbrella and off to a new game.

This topic is a bit like talking about the weather, it never ends.

People may hate them, but SOE ARE one of the big MMORPG companies. Anyhow, rain drops are the first sign of a downpour, why would you ignore them and stay outside? If you wait, you are gonna just get soaked right?

Blizzard are currently testing the waters with their playerbase by offering a comestic character redesign for $, something that other games such as CoH have given to their player base for free as part of the game's content. There is no reason to charge for this function at all, yet they charge. I would imagine if this dosent gnerate too much of a stink then they will be going down this road as well.

The time to stop them, by posting that you care about honest billing and Play to Achieve gaming in the proper places, is now. By the time they have it coded and in it will too late.

Your basic philosophy on this matter seems to be 'let them screw up my game, I will move', but what are you gonna do when there is nowhere to move, because you didnt care enough to make a stand now?

The amount of people out there that don't care about anything until it bites them on the butt is amazing.

Originally posted by vesavius

Blizzard are currently testing the waters with their playerbase by offering a comestic character redesign for $, something that other games such as CoH have given to their player base for free as part of the game's content. There is no reason to charge for this function at all, yet they charge. I would imagine if this dosent gnerate too much of a stink then they will be going down this road as well.

Ehh, COH does charge for some cosmetic changes as well, for about $10 USD (30 day jet pack, wedding and other stuff) plus they are one of the first big name MMO companies to roll out a cash shop in the form of NcCoin, before SOE even.

Plus, Turbine just announced they are hiring a position for their microtransaction setup they are working on.

Flat rate Pay to Play MMO's are on their way out. The announcements by these big name companies over the last few months just sped the process up some.

 So don't play any SOE games=fixed

Originally posted by BaronJuJu

Originally posted by vesavius

Blizzard are currently testing the waters with their playerbase by offering a comestic character redesign for $, something that other games such as CoH have given to their player base for free as part of the game's content. There is no reason to charge for this function at all, yet they charge. I would imagine if this dosent gnerate too much of a stink then they will be going down this road as well.

 

Ehh, COH does charge for some cosmetic changes as well, for about $10 USD (30 day jet pack, wedding and other stuff) plus they are one of the first big name MMO companies to roll out a cash shop in the form of NcCoin, before SOE even.

Plus, Turbine just announced they are hiring a position for their microtransaction setup they are working on.

Flat rate Pay to Play MMO's are on their way out. The announcements by these big name companies over the last few months just sped the process up some.

Ehh, i didnt say they didnt.

I was just talking about a specific game feature, cosmetic character adjustments, that CoH has given for free for a while that WoW is now chosen to charge for. Other games have had barbers in as well for a while, but thats not the point. It was just an example that it is financially realistic to include this content as part of the game and still make a profit from the sub model.

I'm not defending CoH in any way here. This isnt about CoH vs WoW vs EQ2 vs whatever. This about the damage that MT does to gaming.  

I want to underline here, though not directed at you Baron, what MT actually means. This isnt about the genre having to adopt MT or die, thats an obvious fact, the Sub model is perfectly sustainable.

It is about replacing an already proven and profitable revenue model (subs) with a more profitable revenue model. That extra proft can only come from one place. Out of your pocket.

Want to know what a 'MMORPG' will look like in 5 years time? Look at PS3 Home; Pay to exist commercial environments that exist only to promote product via sponsored mini games that are designed to drag you into the relevant product and bleed money off you in small enough dribbles that you don't notice until it's too late.

SOE and the others have a plan, and the start of that plan is too change your spending habits and the way you approach gaming slowly. Slowly enough so you don't even notice. Station cash in EQ2 is the first step to this, the Agency and Free Realms are the second, the third?

http://www.massively.com/2009/01/11/soe-expects-the-ps3-to-be-half-their-business/

y'know, as a side note, Gamers are the only comsumers that i have seen that actively argue to be ripped off. I saw the same thing when the consoles started pushing 6hr games on us, and I see it now. Consumers willing to swallow the lies, propaganda, and spin of corperations who just want more money off them.

Originally posted by vesavius

Originally posted by BaronJuJu

Originally posted by vesavius

Blizzard are currently testing the waters with their playerbase by offering a comestic character redesign for $, something that other games such as CoH have given to their player base for free as part of the game's content. There is no reason to charge for this function at all, yet they charge. I would imagine if this dosent gnerate too much of a stink then they will be going down this road as well.

 

Ehh, COH does charge for some cosmetic changes as well, for about $10 USD (30 day jet pack, wedding and other stuff) plus they are one of the first big name MMO companies to roll out a cash shop in the form of NcCoin, before SOE even.

Plus, Turbine just announced they are hiring a position for their microtransaction setup they are working on.

Flat rate Pay to Play MMO's are on their way out. The announcements by these big name companies over the last few months just sped the process up some.

 

Ehh, i didnt say they didnt.

I was just talking about a specific game feature, cosmetic character adjustments, that CoH has given for free for a while that WoW is now chosen to charge for. Other games have had barbers in as well for a while, but thats not the point. It was just an example that it is financially realistic to include this content as part of the game and still make a profit from the sub model.

I'm not defending CoH in any way here. This isnt about CoH vs WoW vs EQ2 vs whatever. This about the damage that MT does to gaming.  

I want to underline here, though not directed at you Baron, what MT actually means. This isnt about the genre having to adopt MT or die, thats an obvious fact, the Sub model is perfectly sustainable.

It is about replacing an already proven and profitable revenue model (subs) with a more profitable revenue model. That extra proft can only come from one place. Out of your pocket.

Want to know what a 'MMORPG' will look like in 5 years time? Look at PS3 Home; Pay to exist commercial environments that exist only to promote product via sponsored mini games that are designed to drag you into the relevant product and bleed money off you in small enough dribbles that you don't notice until it's too late.

SOE and the others have a plan, and the start of that plan is too change your spending habits and the way you approach gaming slowly. Slowly enough so you don't even notice. Station cash in EQ2 is the first step to this, the Agency and Free Realms are the second, the third?

http://www.massively.com/2009/01/11/soe-expects-the-ps3-to-be-half-their-business/

y'know, as a side note, Gamers are the only comsumers that i have seen that actively argue to be ripped off. I saw the same thing when the consoles started pushing 6hr games on us, and I see it now. Consumers willing to swallow the lies, propaganda, and spin of corperations who just want more money off them.

 

Ah, I see what you mean now about COH. I misinterpreted what you meant, sorry about that.

I understand your concern about RMT, and that the plans of the company are to essentially bleed us dry. i will argue though that they probably believed they could bleed us out on a flat rate $15 plan. I believe when they see that we were wiling to pay that and even more (2-4+ accounts for individuals) and were happy doing so they redeveloped it into RMT. However I do not think there will ever be a loud, unified voice to tell the gaming developers that enough is enough. We all may be gamers, but we are the only group I know of that disagrees with each other about damn near every aspect of the hobby we love.

Originally posted by BaronJuJu

 I believe when they see that we were wiling to pay that and even more (2-4+ accounts for individuals) and were happy doing so they redeveloped it into RMT. However I do not think there will ever be a loud, unified voice to tell the gaming developers that enough is enough. We all may be gamers, but we are the only group I know of that disagrees with each other about damn near every aspect of the hobby we love.

I also agree with this rationale

some seasoned players may leave mmos altogether in disgust

but there will always be other players that don't mind being nickel and dimed

especially players new to MMO gaming

Originally posted by BaronJuJu

Originally posted by vesavius

Originally posted by BaronJuJu

Originally posted by vesavius

Blizzard are currently testing the waters with their playerbase by offering a comestic character redesign for $, something that other games such as CoH have given to their player base for free as part of the game's content. There is no reason to charge for this function at all, yet they charge. I would imagine if this dosent gnerate too much of a stink then they will be going down this road as well.

 

Ehh, COH does charge for some cosmetic changes as well, for about $10 USD (30 day jet pack, wedding and other stuff) plus they are one of the first big name MMO companies to roll out a cash shop in the form of NcCoin, before SOE even.

Plus, Turbine just announced they are hiring a position for their microtransaction setup they are working on.

Flat rate Pay to Play MMO's are on their way out. The announcements by these big name companies over the last few months just sped the process up some.

 

Ehh, i didnt say they didnt.

I was just talking about a specific game feature, cosmetic character adjustments, that CoH has given for free for a while that WoW is now chosen to charge for. Other games have had barbers in as well for a while, but thats not the point. It was just an example that it is financially realistic to include this content as part of the game and still make a profit from the sub model.

I'm not defending CoH in any way here. This isnt about CoH vs WoW vs EQ2 vs whatever. This about the damage that MT does to gaming.  

I want to underline here, though not directed at you Baron, what MT actually means. This isnt about the genre having to adopt MT or die, thats an obvious fact, the Sub model is perfectly sustainable.

It is about replacing an already proven and profitable revenue model (subs) with a more profitable revenue model. That extra proft can only come from one place. Out of your pocket.

Want to know what a 'MMORPG' will look like in 5 years time? Look at PS3 Home; Pay to exist commercial environments that exist only to promote product via sponsored mini games that are designed to drag you into the relevant product and bleed money off you in small enough dribbles that you don't notice until it's too late.

SOE and the others have a plan, and the start of that plan is too change your spending habits and the way you approach gaming slowly. Slowly enough so you don't even notice. Station cash in EQ2 is the first step to this, the Agency and Free Realms are the second, the third?

http://www.massively.com/2009/01/11/soe-expects-the-ps3-to-be-half-their-business/

y'know, as a side note, Gamers are the only comsumers that i have seen that actively argue to be ripped off. I saw the same thing when the consoles started pushing 6hr games on us, and I see it now. Consumers willing to swallow the lies, propaganda, and spin of corperations who just want more money off them.

 

 

Ah, I see what you mean now about COH. I misinterpreted what you meant, sorry about that.

I understand your concern about RMT, and that the plans of the company are to essentially bleed us dry. i will argue though that they probably believed they could bleed us out on a flat rate $15 plan. I believe when they see that we were wiling to pay that and even more (2-4+ accounts for individuals) and were happy doing so they redeveloped it into RMT. However I do not think there will ever be a loud, unified voice to tell the gaming developers that enough is enough. We all may be gamers, but we are the only group I know of that disagrees with each other about damn near every aspect of the hobby we love.

heh yeah, you are very right, and thats what makes us an easy rip off :(

There are three problems with RMT:

1. You buy your way up to the top with RL money and thus you eliminate that illusion of being something different IG than what you are out of game.   So, in general and if you ever played a RMT game you'll know this to be true, you'll get the elitist + rich kid who becomes a god player purchasing his way to the strongest position in a matter of weeks (when it normally takes months).

2. Cookie-cutter, Diabloesque, shallow MMOs designed to be 'bandwidth efficient' and low customer support required.  See, there is a misconception here, and this is why EQ and EQ2 hasn't gone FTP.  They cannot.  The hardware, maintenance, customer service and bandwidth are to high and RMTs don't make any money unless those costs are way down.   So, you design your game to be very basic (also lesser dev time/cost) and you churn out a templated MMO style (checkout how similar all asian based RMTs are). 

3. They only make profits because they  have slim to no content updates, invest most profit into advertisement and ultimately depend on player churning rather than player retention.  In order to do this you have to have a cheap, quick, MMO template and code base that allows little change. 

The problem that Turbine, SOE and Bioware or whatever big mmo developer will have is thinking they can tack on the asian style RMT into a subscription/retail $49.95 game and make that much more profits.  DIdn't SOE learn with their $4.95 episode packs or whatever they called them?  At least those had some lasting value.

They're not looking at this from a gamer perspective they are looking at this from a business perspective and it'll bite them in the ass.  Their management/creative people have been so far away from actual gaming now they no longer realize that 'games are about the game' and a game either lives or dies based upon the 'gaming it provides' to the player not some money making scheme.

The reason why they cannot, or won't ever, compete with Blizzard in the MMO subscription field is because Blizzard worries about making a game first no matter the delay.  Turbine and SOE simply dump all their money into graphics, hype and theories from people who are not actual gamers.

There is nothing wrong with microtransactions or virtual good sales.

The problem is when they are combined with subscriptions. Burning the candle from both ends is just double dipping (how's that for a mixed metaphor?).

RMT is a trend, a fad, nothing more.  It'll become more hybrid or transparent ( "char transfer, name change, class change") without the item mall as it is today.  Devs have it about right, right now.   The developers who jump head first into the pool will be the ones who end up losing bigtime, probably leaving MMOs all together, after they knock themselves out with their own greed and stupidity.

Originally posted by Glamis

There is nothing wrong with microtransactions or virtual good sales.

 

The problem is when they are combined with subscriptions. Burning the candle from both ends is just double dipping (how's that for a mixed metaphor?).

 

yes there is, but tbh I can't be bothered to answer you any deeper then that as to why there is because you havent bothered to explain why you think there isnt.

But, anyhow, you are wrong.

So basically the path to attaining items and levels is so boring and unfulfilling  that SOE thinks players would rather pay for that stuff than play for it.  Pathetic!

If SOE would not touch their games so much they would be better. The Star Wars Galaxies and Vanguard games were better off without SOE, maybe if they would say ok make this game but we will not bother you ann so your game will not be so bad, but instead they Help too much and game does not turn out so good anymore.

Originally posted by Kieth75

If SOE would not touch their games so much they would be better. The Star Wars Galaxies and Vanguard games were better off without SOE, maybe if they would say ok make this game but we will not bother you ann so your game will not be so bad, but instead they Help too much and game does not turn out so good anymore.

Um what... Vanguard?  I'll jump on your bandwagon for SWG but Vanguard?

Vanguard was so bad that the changes SOE did make = a better game.

So that one kinda escapes my ability to zerg on!

Personally the issue I see is that people are put into positions they are not qualified for... don't have the experience or personality for... and screw things up, alienate the player base and aren't dealt with (aka fired).

Aeralik on the EQ2 team is a prime example of someone with absolutely no clue on any level to be in game development or to even post on a forum with a "red name".  The best thing they could do for EQ2 at this point is to at least revoke his posting ability on forums and I would suggest sending him to a special corner office to work on a project that will never be seen by human kind.

Chris Cao would be another prime example... take part in the screw up that was the NGE then go over to DC Universe.. so that SOE can wonder why that fails.  suggestion same as Aeralik.  He also has an extreme ability to piss off people with comments even less intellegent than Aeralik.

I would go so far as to say 90% of the people on mmorpg.com could do a better job than either of these guys... and if you think about it.. that really is saying something.

I can understand that talented people don't want to work for them...

But you couldn't do much worse than those two and its not that hard to find quite a few more but those two come to mind right off.

This is why the games are changed for the worst.. the people changing them have no friggin clue what they are doing.  Change doesn't have to be bad.. but in this case it mostly works out that way and for obvious reasons.

Reading Aeralik's post about class changes in EQ2 over the last year or so has been one of the most entertaining / head shaking events of my life.

Originally posted by vesavius

Originally posted by jayanti

 Sorry to inject a small amount of realism into your obviously well researched post, but SOE is only asking for a subscription. But, if you want to level an alt quicker with an hour XP boost, or have a some fluff hat with no stats, you can buy it for a couple of cents. Or don't. Theres no "YOU HAVE TO DO THIS OMFGARGHHH!!!one!!".

This gives you zero advantage over anyone else, and has been used by other games to good effect. Hell, Ultima Online have been selling high level boosted characters for years!!! All SOE is doing is selling some xp boosts, which, for people who dont play 24 hours a day due to a little thing called work, is actually quite helpful as you can keep up with friends. 

 

 

God, here we go again.

• SOE is asking for a sub (essential), game/ expansion purchase (essential), Station Players extras (fluff, but should be part of a basic service), LoN purchases (fluff), and MT (a mixture). This is a lot of player 'investment' in a game that could be profitable on the original EQ model.
• SOE's MT sells xp/ mana potions to aid faster levelling and armour packages that are solid gear. These are not fluff and effect the core progression systems in these games. A player paying to use xp potions has a BIG advantage over a player choosing not to.
• If my guild usues these potions, as an example, then I will have to as well to keep with them. This removes the illusion of 'choice' that mst pro-MT people have. Once MT is in a game in truth all real choice vanishes, as demonstrated by your 'to keep up with friends' statement.
• The fact that you are paying now to level as a way of 'keeping up with friends' is EXACTLY how MT companies make money off you. In a game with alts and mentoring, these should never be required, but they know how easy a gaming addiciton is to exploit, and exploit it they will.
• Plenty of people that succeed honestly in these games work. They just succeed over a longer period of time then the hardcore levellers.
• MT is sold on the greed of the casual gamer, who wants the same as some others around him NOW, rather then waiting to put in the effort and gain the knowledge to win it in game.
• MT destroys the very core elements that makes games games. It turns MMORPG into a just a commercial virtual environment, the same as Sony's PS3 Home is. In turn, lazy instant gratification gamers are enabling them to do this, and so are themselves killing games.
• Despite the spin and propaganda given out by the big dev corps, MT benefits noone but them. Not the games, and not the gamer. They are more profitable then (the already profitable) sub model and, therefore, cost you as a player more. Those extra profits can only come from YOU. Think about that. They rely on your gaming addiciton to slowly bleed your money from your wallet in small enoug drops so you don't notice anything until it's too late.

Enough realism for you?

Pay to Exist vs Play to Achieve. I want to Play to Achieve.

Soild armor .... what are you talking about all the armor (in EQ2) has "0" stats... its all looks. The potions they have giving out for free for sometime now ( depending on how old your account is) i know i have at least 12 exp and 12 TS bottles collecting dust in my bank.

On the bright side, perhaps the few people who were hanging onto the hope of Sony redemption might move on to more respectable games.

Originally posted by vesavius

Originally posted by Glamis

There is nothing wrong with microtransactions or virtual good sales.

 

The problem is when they are combined with subscriptions. Burning the candle from both ends is just double dipping (how's that for a mixed metaphor?).

 

 

yes there is, but tbh I can't be bothered to answer you any deeper then that as to why there is because you havent bothered to explain why you think there isnt.

But, anyhow, you are wrong.

I'm sure Glamis doesn't have a good line of reasoning.  I think hes just trying to be a dick, like walking into a cancer ward and going "I like cancer, there's nothing wrong with it.  Now having cancer AND aids, that would suck."

Maybe Glamis can share another one of his hobbies with us, so we can all go out and campaign for it to cost alot more while simultaniously ruining whatever made it fun in the first place.

Originally posted by Proserpine

I'm sure Glamis doesn't have a good line of reasoning.  I think hes just trying to be a dick, like walking into a cancer ward and going "I like cancer, there's nothing wrong with it.  Now having cancer AND aids, that would suck.

Yah, comparing microtransactions with cancer; that's entirely relevant and not at all silly.

Originally posted by Ilvaldyr

Originally posted by Proserpine

I'm sure Glamis doesn't have a good line of reasoning.  I think hes just trying to be a dick, like walking into a cancer ward and going "I like cancer, there's nothing wrong with it.  Now having cancer AND aids, that would suck.

Yah, comparing microtransactions with cancer; that's entirely relevant and not at all silly.

Comparison is the action , not the content.

some of ya people are way to "political correct" and thin skinned.

Heck, I was accused and flamed for bringing the holocaust into a discussion cuz I used a rewritten poem written by a holocaust victim as part of a post....

Heck, with people like "you", I shouldnt dare to mention my grampa and what he'd do or call the spade, cuz he was in a work camp during the war... Cuz ya know, I would be comparing slave labour to "games" if I used my grandpa as example then