"Unless shelling out 50 dollars a month + a subscription ..."

What game are you playing?

Just curious...

By the way, here we go again...thread, meet the dead horse, horse, meet yet ANOTHER played out thread...

I am also still wondering where it says you are forced to use the cash store...if any of you could point that out to me, that might make me take off my anti-SOE tin foil hat...then again I still wish SOE would bring back my baby...blaming those dingos....

Really can't see what all the fuss is about.

It's just a business model; it'll succeed or fail depending on the customer.

If you don't like item-shops in games then don't buy things from them; if everyone has the same attitude then the item-shop model will fail and be abandoned in favour of a business model that is more profitable.

If that doesn't happen and the item-shop flourishes as the community accepts them, then you will have to accept that you're a minority and look for a niche title that better suits your needs.

MMO's can't please everyone; the big budget ones target the mainstream majority, but there will always be niche games that cater specifically to different attitudes and playstyles. It's unreasonable to expect a huge-budgeted AAA title for a niche market; it just doesn't make sense for them to do that from a business standpoint.

Originally posted by Cik_Asalin

Whats laughable is that anyone would be surprised by microtransations since they've been prevalent in mmos over that past 20+ years, particularly in the form of gold sellers.

I think I mentioned this the last time you said this, so I will try again, just in another way. You continue to use the 20+ years with mmo's, so...

What mmo's were out there in 1989 and what mmo's are even older than that?

What kind of internet do you think we had back in 1989? (Hint, I told you in the last thread).

Do you know how old the whole system of microtransactions is?

HTTP was only invented in 1989.

MMO's in 1989 were me and my mates down the arcade playing the same game on different arcade machines and seeing who could get the furthest before ‘GAME OVER’. 
 

Originally posted by vesavius

Originally posted by JMadisonIV

any game that uses Microtransactions should not also use a Subscription fee. and I'd argue that they should not charge for the game itself either.

but the way I see it, F2P with Cash Shop  is going to slowly become the norm. it's been the norm for years in Asia, and it will gradually catch on in the West.  especially once some company finally manages to strike the correct balance between desirable cash shop items and not letting the cash shop unbalance the game.

It's gonna become the norm because of the laziness of users will buy into the Pay to Exist model. It's for the gamer's, not the users as MT defines, but the gamers to stop this. If the gamers are seduced by the proganda and spin then they will have a clear path to full MT.

While I like a lot of what comes out of the Far East culturally, there is a lot about their gaming that I do not want here. MT is one of them. Just because it has happened in the East, it does NOT mean it's inevitable here. I honestly do not understand why so many think that.

All it takes is for real gamers, and by that I mean people who enjoy games and play to achieve as opposed to users who are happy/ brain dead enough to pay to exist, to say no.

I for one will never support a game that has any form of MT.

Take a look at PS3 Home if you want to see where corps want to see mmo spaces ending up.

Commercial virtual environments spondored by advertising and funded by MT that are full of mini games that exist only to drag you into a product and take more money off you.

This is mmo designed by accountants, not by gamers.

also, for the people who are so vigorously against Microtransactions, I hope none of you own a Wi/PS3/XBox 360.  because when you get your Map Packs, XBLA/PSN games WiiWare, Virtual Console games and Downloadable Content...it's really no different from a Cash Shop.  You are paying real money for virtual currency in order to buy items from a virtual shop.  same idea, different product. and you pay 50 dollars a year for XBox Live on top of that.

What has that got to do with mmorpgs on the PC?

It seems that you are trying to muddy the waters of the debate by talking about how another platform works... Well, I say 'who cares'?

Let the consoles do what they wanna do, there is plenty that happens gamewise on them that I do not want to see come over to PCs and mmorpgs. MT is one of them.

You seem to be a very, 'well, it's happened there, so it must happen here' kinda guy... I hope soon you realise that this isnt true, and honest, open, clear billing for the games we play is a thing to be valued and fought for.

I will say again, MT destroys the very thing that makes games games. If you are any kind of achievement gamer, and by that I mean a person who enjoys challenge and learning then beating a game by your own knowledge and skill, this should matter to you.

 

I definitely care and truly dislike MT, but I am afraid....very afraid that it will become a more common thing then we  "Gamers "would like it  to be, you see what people expect from games these day's, on forums countless of topics explain just how inpatients today's generation is, I see the gold sites flourishing all over the INTERNET, many if not most exist due to demand, the demand seems to be high, I am even highly surprised to have seen several people on forums like this one who I've thought to be true  "gamers" to also get into that MT type of game, where they will find all sorts of excuses, mostly related to time, it's as if they not playing a game but more working on a job.

Like another poster said that on console it's common practice to buy items/quest/updates/whatevers with extra cash and knowing we are going to get into a era where the MMORPG scene will slightly be on consoles, though I am not expecting to see the best of MMORPG on consoles with this generation, but feel that the next gen. consoles (Xbox720,PS4) might provide the beginning of the true next gen MMORPG and since it's almost common practice that most online-console players know they might need to pay a extra dime MT might already be common practice

So overall I truly fear it will become a bigger reality then we want it to be.

I don't want to pay for extra items in game that is if I am paying a monthly subfee, I don't like MT so I choose to simply not play F2P games that have any form of MT. I am glad there are games made for with MT in it so that those who want to play them have the choice to do so, but like I said I am afraid that it might be, and if not be then might become more common across all type of games not only MMORPG, but any game that is connected to the internet, and we all see that not only MMO's or Multiplayer games require a online connection, we get more and more single player games that require you to be online or login in to a account (online), We already have lots of single player games that offered different armor/weapons/items/quests that you had to buy online (Oblivion comes to mind as probably the most common but also and many more), I don't feel it will take long before some form of MT happening in even more games, even in single player games.

I am not a achiever as in someone that wants to achieve something ingame in a limited amount of time but I do want to achieve certain goals like anyone else, but I choose to do so in my own time, while my time is very limited I already know that when I find a MMORPG that suites me it is going to take me a very long time to ever even reach max lvl, but thats the thing I use to like with MMORPG, there was no rush, of course there was from many players, but it was more balanced, in my opinion, the rush type of players out number the patient type of players these day's there for MT might become a bigger reality then we "GAMERS" want to to be.

Oh I don't think it will be gamers that will stop MT.  I've only been around in MMO's since Kunark EQ.  Gamers are the ones that were demanding MT.  Gamers have always looked for hacks, exploits, cheats, ways to take advantage of the system in MMO"s and single player gamess alike.

They have always been there, now because there are users as you define them, there are just more people looking to take advantage.

Venge Sunsoar

Originally posted by lightning-rd

No, SWG now is:  Few subscriptions+MACROTRANSCAM via the TCG a harcore (lol) bunch of NGE fanbois who will spend hundreds of dollars on TCG "decks" to get the ever increasing in outrageousness in game items.

The NGE is now THE MOST expensive MMORPG ever released to play in terms of $$$ the publisher expects of you to experience everything. 

Sadly, I might have been willing to pay $30/mo to play a fully developed Pre-CU...  Not a broken WOW clone with lightsabers, sorry.  I'll stick with EVE which is sanbox, which has no levels, which is skills based, which has NO LIMIT to the skills you can earn, which gets an expansion every 4-6 months and it costs me nothing but my regular sub fee to get all of it.

That is why CCP is now by far a larger industry player than SOE.  There are three top names in MMORPGs today, anyone else is largely irrelevant...  Blizzard...  Turbine....  CCP.

Eh, actually Arenanet  should also be mentioned, Guildwars and Eve has been competing  hard on X-fire recently, and GW do have sold a lot.

And CCP will really show it's worth when the next game releases ("World of darkness online", hopefully in 2010), that game can actually be huge.

But, yes... I think SOE is slipping more and more, they either need a great game soon or that the porting of MMOs for PS3 will be a succes, or they can as well close down. The subs of EQ 1 & 2 + SWG can't keep them afloat forever. Maybe they should really consider of going F2P instead.

I am really anything else but a SOE fan, but maybe you really LOOK at the reality before starting mindless flamewars.

First, we all know RMT is coming, its not genuinely SOE's evil.

Second, if you look at what you can really get for dollars: its 3 cosmetical armor sets, and potions for XP buff and thats basically all. At least for EQ2. At least in my opinion EQ1 is so old, it doesnt really count what they do there, but its not much more. So there really isnt any dramatic change.

You are making a fuzz over so litte.

Originally posted by Scot

HTTP was only invented in 1989.

MMO's in 1989 were me and my mates down the arcade playing the same game on different arcade machines and seeing who could get the furthest before ‘GAME OVER’. 
 

Yeah :) I think you and I know that, but I somehow begin to doubt Cik-Asalin is aware of it. That's why I asked what mmo's he thinks were around in 1989..he keeps mentioning that microtransactions have been in 20+ years in mmo's

I should probably just let it rest now. But it amuses me to see someone actually think there was a working internet in 1989 with massive multiplaying games. I mean, there wasn't anything massive about the internet back in 1989 :P

Originally posted by Liljna

Originally posted by Scot

HTTP was only invented in 1989.

MMO's in 1989 were me and my mates down the arcade playing the same game on different arcade machines and seeing who could get the furthest before ‘GAME OVER’. 
 

 

Yeah :) I think you and I know that, but I somehow begin to doubt Cik-Asalin is aware of it. That's why I asked what mmo's he thinks were around in 1989..he keeps mentioning that microtransactions have been in 20+ years in mmo's

I should probably just let it rest now. But it amuses me to see someone actually think there was a working internet in 1989 with massive multiplaying games. I mean, there wasn't anything massive about the internet back in 1989 :P

 

Hi All

Just to clarify some points, the first consumer release of the HTTP protocol was in 1991.

The first real MMO was a game called Air Warrior and it was going strong in 1987, although you had to be with that specific provider to play it, so 20 +  years is about right for MMO's

Originally posted by 1druid1

Originally posted by Liljna

Originally posted by Scot

HTTP was only invented in 1989.

MMO's in 1989 were me and my mates down the arcade playing the same game on different arcade machines and seeing who could get the furthest before ‘GAME OVER’. 
 

 

Yeah :) I think you and I know that, but I somehow begin to doubt Cik-Asalin is aware of it. That's why I asked what mmo's he thinks were around in 1989..he keeps mentioning that microtransactions have been in 20+ years in mmo's

I should probably just let it rest now. But it amuses me to see someone actually think there was a working internet in 1989 with massive multiplaying games. I mean, there wasn't anything massive about the internet back in 1989 :P

 

 

Hi All

Just to clarify some points, the first consumer release of the HTTP protocol was in 1991.

The first real MMO was a game called Air Warrior and it was going strong in 1987, although you had to be with that specific provider to play it, so 20 +  years is about right for MMO's

So was there any gold sellers in Air Warrior? The claim is there were gold sellers in those mmo's 20 years ago.

How many could play at the same time in Air Warrior? I have seen people mention 50 players or 60-70 players. I don't see that as massive, although definitely quite a feat to pull off at the time.

Is a game with 50 players really an mmo? If yes, then I guess we define Massive quite differently, and that can of course be the reason why I don't think there were any in 1989 and others think there were :)

Besides, is it wrong to assume that when people on this site write mmo, they are in fact thinking of mmorpgs and not fly simulators and fps games? I must admit I thought of MMORPG's when Cik said there were mmo's 20+ years ago. Especially because he also mentions goldsellers. I haven't heard of goldsellers in fly simulator games, but I could be wrong there.

I have always thought of Neverwinter Nights (not the Bioware version) as the first MMORPG with graphics and that is from 1991, if my memory servers.

Last question, with provider, do you then mean GEnie?

edit: and grats on your first post btw :)

Originally posted by Slampig

"Unless shelling out 50 dollars a month + a subscription ..."

What game are you playing?

 

Just curious...

 

By the way, here we go again...thread, meet the dead horse, horse, meet yet ANOTHER played out thread...

 

I am also still wondering where it says you are forced to use the cash store...if any of you could point that out to me, that might make me take off my anti-SOE tin foil hat...then again I still wish SOE would bring back my baby...blaming those dingos....

 

Do you not understand that a cashstore makes the game Pay to Exist.  Once they start rolling in the gear for cash you aren't going to compete with anyone or be invited to a group unless you are shelling out the money.  Pull head out of anus

As yet though no serious items are being offered as cash only? Even if they were this would only effect the paranoid Raid crowd who think you need +6 toothpaste to go to the ball.

Even if it eventually did only effect who is picked for Raiding then its wrong. But  thats not happened yet whch is why I think this thread is high on drama and low on good advice.

Originally posted by Scot

As yet though no serious items are being offered as cash only? Even if they were this would only effect the paranoid Raid crowd who think you need +6 toothpaste to go to the ball.

Even if it eventually did only effect who is picked for Raiding then its wrong. But  thats not happened yet whch is why I think this thread is high on drama and low on good advice.

But you're failing to see the slippery slope.  You're right that it hasn't happen, but what makes you certain it won't? 

Just because you're only feeling a few rain drops doesn't mean the storm isn't on it's way.

Originally posted by Scot

As yet though no serious items are being offered as cash only? Even if they were this would only effect the paranoid Raid crowd who think you need +6 toothpaste to go to the ball.

Even if it eventually did only effect who is picked for Raiding then its wrong. But  thats not happened yet whch is why I think this thread is high on drama and low on good advice.

Im curious what you think the chances are that SOE or who-ever will start offering real (meaningfull) items for cash?  unlikely? impossible?

I'd agree with most people that it would be just a matter of time.  If not SOE than some other company.  Take Blizzard for example, I think they are up to Teir 10 or something with the armor sets, so maybe they sell Teir sets 1-9 in microtransactions.  They'd claim that everyone should have the oportunity to get the next highest Teir, and they need the good equipment below it to try.

I say start now and boycott anything that has MT, including console games.  They suck noodles anyway.

Originally posted by jayanti

 Sorry to inject a small amount of realism into your obviously well researched post, but SOE is only asking for a subscription. But, if you want to level an alt quicker with an hour XP boost, or have a some fluff hat with no stats, you can buy it for a couple of cents. Or don't. Theres no "YOU HAVE TO DO THIS OMFGARGHHH!!!one!!".

This gives you zero advantage over anyone else, and has been used by other games to good effect. Hell, Ultima Online have been selling high level boosted characters for years!!! All SOE is doing is selling some xp boosts, which, for people who dont play 24 hours a day due to a little thing called work, is actually quite helpful as you can keep up with friends. 

 

The reality isn't how powerful the items for sale are.  That is a random factor that can and most likely will change when SOE is ready to offer more powerful items.

The reality is this and this is all that matters.  SOE has removed content that would have otherwise been a free addition under the normal subscription fee and placed a secondary market price tag on it.  So now the players are no longer getting the full efforts of the same exact developers they were paying last month.  Now they are only getting a percentage of their efforts and anything beyond that they have to pay an additional charge for.

I cannot think of one rational reason how this is a benefit to the playerbase.  Paying the same for less return or increasing costs for the same amount of returns. 

P.S. People seemed to do just fine for the last 4 years without xp potions in EQ2 and other games.  Not sure why they are so needed now, let alone at a premium fee.  Stop rationalizing.

Originally posted by vesavius

Originally posted by jayanti

 Sorry to inject a small amount of realism into your obviously well researched post, but SOE is only asking for a subscription. But, if you want to level an alt quicker with an hour XP boost, or have a some fluff hat with no stats, you can buy it for a couple of cents. Or don't. Theres no "YOU HAVE TO DO THIS OMFGARGHHH!!!one!!".

This gives you zero advantage over anyone else, and has been used by other games to good effect. Hell, Ultima Online have been selling high level boosted characters for years!!! All SOE is doing is selling some xp boosts, which, for people who dont play 24 hours a day due to a little thing called work, is actually quite helpful as you can keep up with friends. 

 

 

God, here we go again.

• SOE is asking for a sub (essential), game/ expansion purchase (essential), Station Players extras (fluff, but should be part of a basic service), LoN purchases (fluff), and MT (a mixture). This is a lot of player 'investment' in a game that could be profitable on the original EQ model.
• SOE's MT sells xp/ mana potions to aid faster levelling and armour packages that are solid gear. These are not fluff and effect the core progression systems in these games. A player paying to use xp potions has a BIG advantage over a player choosing not to.
• If my guild usues these potions, as an example, then I will have to as well to keep with them. This removes the illusion of 'choice' that mst pro-MT people have. Once MT is in a game in truth all real choice vanishes, as demonstrated by your 'to keep up with friends' statement.
• The fact that you are paying now to level as a way of 'keeping up with friends' is EXACTLY how MT companies make money off you. In a game with alts and mentoring, these should never be required, but they know how easy a gaming addiciton is to exploit, and exploit it they will.
• Plenty of people that succeed honestly in these games work. They just succeed over a longer period of time then the hardcore levellers.
• MT is sold on the greed of the casual gamer, who wants the same as some others around him NOW, rather then waiting to put in the effort and gain the knowledge to win it in game.
• MT destroys the very core elements that makes games games. It turns MMORPG into a just a commercial virtual environment, the same as Sony's PS3 Home is. In turn, lazy instant gratification gamers are enabling them to do this, and so are themselves killing games.
• Despite the spin and propaganda given out by the big dev corps, MT benefits noone but them. Not the games, and not the gamer. They are more profitable then (the already profitable) sub model and, therefore, cost you as a player more. Those extra profits can only come from YOU. Think about that. They rely on your gaming addiciton to slowly bleed your money from your wallet in small enoug drops so you don't notice anything until it's too late.

Enough realism for you?

Pay to Exist vs Play to Achieve. I want to Play to Achieve.

  Nice response Vesavius, and to inject some more realism into the blind SOE fanbois .. Every single piece of gear ,Weapons ,Armor Jewelry,charms etc etc... are already coded for RMT this has been SOEs plan for years.Its just a matter of them releasing  (item ) for purchase...

I am a huge fan of microtransaction/virtual currency business models, but I think combining them with subscriptions is trying to burn the candle at both ends.

City of Heroes is doing this now as well, and it really ticks me off.

Originally posted by Glamis

I am a huge fan of microtransaction/virtual currency business models, but I think combining them with subscriptions is trying to burn the candle at both ends.

 

City of Heroes is doing this now as well, and it really ticks me off.

 

Holy #$%!

I never thought I'd see this on a forum for PC games.  I thought the only fans of MTs were kids with their parents credit cards and their xbox360 christmas present. 

Even if you had microtransactions without a subscription, why would you enjoy that? you just completely took away the game.  Wasnt the idea of almost all mmo's that you had to play for quite some time, either pvp or pve before you could get the good gear that would make you stand out?  Isnt that a part of the central idea behind mmorpgs, to continously improve yourself by playing smart and/or by playing for a long time?

But you are in favor of having the new guy who just bought the game (and lets say the game has been out for several years) buy all the good gear right off the bat?

Originally posted by Proserpine

Originally posted by Glamis

I am a huge fan of microtransaction/virtual currency business models, but I think combining them with subscriptions is trying to burn the candle at both ends.

 

City of Heroes is doing this now as well, and it really ticks me off.

 

 

Holy #$%!

I never thought I'd see this on a forum for PC games.  I thought the only fans of MTs were kids with their parents credit cards and their xbox360 christmas present. 

Even if you had microtransactions without a subscription, why would you enjoy that? you just completely took away the game.  Wasnt the idea of almost all mmo's that you had to play for quite some time, either pvp or pve before you could get the good gear that would make you stand out?  Isnt that a part of the central idea behind mmorpgs, to continously improve yourself by playing smart and/or by playing for a long time?

But you are in favor of having the new guy who just bought the game (and lets say the game has been out for several years) buy all the good gear right off the bat?

/agreed.  i understand some people in free to play games might enjoy this, but for a lot of us the whole reason we pay the subscription is to avoid that garbage and get a quality game.