Originally posted by Yamota

Originally posted by srsh12345

I can't believe this is the same company that made DAOC. I was really wished that they would remake DAOC with the WAR IP.  I just don't understand why they decided to WOW-enize their game so much when they had a succesful track record with DAOC.

--You can't copy WOW and expect to pull the WOW players unless you do the WOW experience better than Blizzard.
--You can't copy EVE and expect to get the EVE players unless you do the EVE experience better than CCP.
Same with any established game/business.

I really feel that they underestimated how low burned out WOW-players have set their bar when seeking their next MMO.

I still feel that WAR has the potential to turn things around and I am hoping they can. However, I am not going to be paying them while I feel there’s so much that needs to be improved.

  

 

I so much agree with this statement. It seems like the MMORPG industry is in crisis because almost all devs look at WoWs subscription numbers and think if they copy WoWs features and add their own twist then they will get similar subscription numbers.

But as you say you wont do that unless you do the WOW experience better than Blizzard and that is a very hard thing to do. For one Blizzard is an excellent company that always hold a very high standard of their games and second they know the Warcraft IP better than anyone else so trying to make a better WoW copy us very hard if not impossible.

Hopefully after the many semi-failures such as AoC and WAR the devs realise this and try to be innovative instead of copying other companies product.  Not saying that WAR is a complete copy of WoW but it has many elements, the very linear progression and lenient death penalties for one thing, that is very similar to WoW and when people see this they probably think. Hey this is like WoW then why dont I play WoW instead which has ten times the number of people and many times the content than this game?

Devs wake up!

Agreed 100%.

WoW is great and all, but I believe its time to raise a bar a little bit.

Originally posted by Daffid011

 

The only thing that plays different is that you can level by doing open PvP.  Everything else about this game plays just like WoW.  Sure some of the mechanics might differ here and there, but this is a straight up Diku/EQ/WoW clone, cut straight from the same cloth.  Most of the efforts where not even dressed up as something different and are straight out system clones.  Tell me you didn't have a firm grasp of how to play this game within ten minutes after logging on. 

Just because the game rewards people for running around in a pvp playpen with some experience doesn't somehow change the nature of what the game is.

 

You ignore the points of the person you criticize.  Sure you can level by running around in the RvR lakes and take keeps, but overall there is no driving passion to do so.  The whole RvR system is rather meaningless for 3/4 of the game and can be ignored without consequences. 

PvP just for the sake of fighting other players can be found in any game.  Mythic cloned a keep a hald dozen times and their best plan was "here fight over these".  Yet at the end of the day there is almost no reason to do so when that activity is scrutinized.  Why fight over the keeps?  The whole RvR system is a messy nightmare that doesn't stimulate people enough to play it for the sake of enjoyment, pride or victory.  The only way they could get people to engage each other was to slather gear rewards and reputation grinds into it.

 

Yamota is being realistic when he made his comments.  The problem isn't that people play this game like WoW, the problem is the game itself. 

The propblem is the game itself???!? I usually don't comment on peoples exact comments but HONESTLY? Making a game that some people are enjoying is a problem? I understand that you believe it's a WoW clone and this is fine even though I don't agree. But honestly how can anyone say that it's a problem having a game people enjoy playing. I see you point KINDA being that it sucks for YOU that games arn't comming out that YOU enjoy because companies are trying to follow a succsesfull model to a degree. But the GAME isn't the problem. It's just not for you.

Originally posted by Everith

Originally posted by Daffid011

 

The only thing that plays different is that you can level by doing open PvP.  Everything else about this game plays just like WoW.  Sure some of the mechanics might differ here and there, but this is a straight up Diku/EQ/WoW clone, cut straight from the same cloth.  Most of the efforts where not even dressed up as something different and are straight out system clones.  Tell me you didn't have a firm grasp of how to play this game within ten minutes after logging on. 

Just because the game rewards people for running around in a pvp playpen with some experience doesn't somehow change the nature of what the game is.

 

You ignore the points of the person you criticize.  Sure you can level by running around in the RvR lakes and take keeps, but overall there is no driving passion to do so.  The whole RvR system is rather meaningless for 3/4 of the game and can be ignored without consequences. 

PvP just for the sake of fighting other players can be found in any game.  Mythic cloned a keep a hald dozen times and their best plan was "here fight over these".  Yet at the end of the day there is almost no reason to do so when that activity is scrutinized.  Why fight over the keeps?  The whole RvR system is a messy nightmare that doesn't stimulate people enough to play it for the sake of enjoyment, pride or victory.  The only way they could get people to engage each other was to slather gear rewards and reputation grinds into it.

 

Yamota is being realistic when he made his comments.  The problem isn't that people play this game like WoW, the problem is the game itself. 

 

The propblem is the game itself???!? I usually don't comment on peoples exact comments but HONESTLY? Making a game that some people are enjoying is a problem? I understand that you believe it's a WoW clone and this is fine even though I don't agree. But honestly how can anyone say that it's a problem having a game people enjoy playing. I see you point KINDA being that it sucks for YOU that games arn't comming out that YOU enjoy because companies are trying to follow a succsesfull model to a degree. But the GAME isn't the problem. It's just not for you.

Yes the problem is the game itself which is why there are so many cancelllations. Although there are people who do enjoy the game, and I myself, enjoy some elements of it, the bigger picture and the only one that really matters is :  Are enough people enjoying it that EA is satisfied?

As for having a problem with a game people enjoy playing you're way off with your criticism of previous posters viewpoints. The problem for me, and many other like me, is Mythic did not deliver an RvR game superior to DaoC, which was what was advertised. Instead the gave us a game with updated graphics but with a completely inferior pvp/rvr experience. How many times did we read from Mark, "We've learned a few things from DaoC"

Or the entire marketing campaign: War is Everywhere! which it is definitely not.

Mythic hyped up their daoc fanbase and people who were burnt out on WoW to the Warhammer ideas. Then delivered a buggy mess that with no real cause to keep you excited about the game. For every one thing good about the game, I can probably name two bad things. That's not a winning percentage.

Sorry if I was not clear in my point.  Let me try again.

When someone says that people are playing a game "wrong" and that the fault lies with them and not the design of the game I find that incorrect.

It was not my intention to say that Warhammer in unenjoyable.  However I do think it is clear that the games problems drove many players away.  It wasn't somehow the fault of players doing something wrong, but the fault of the game as it was released.  Even Mythic admits this in their patch notes and webcasts, etc.

For the most part this game did flop.  Those failures can be tied to what the game is and not how people play it incorrectly (if that is even a possibility). 

If you take out the RvR then this game really doesn't offer anything worth subscribing for that can not be found much better in a number of other games.  This isn't saying people might not enjoy it, but pound for pound the non RvR aspects of this game are very bland in comparison to most other games.  I do believe this game would be down to 5 or less servers if it didn't have RvR combat.

The RvR is fun if you just want to run around the open world and fight other players.  Beyond that most of the systems fail.  There is little understanding of how the war "effort" works.  There is little incentive to fight over keeps.  There is little attachment to do the RvR theme of the game. 

RvR is doing ok for 2 reasons.  First is people like PvP for the sake of fighting other players.  How long that will last as a motivator I don't know.  Second is because Mythic put gear rewards into the RvR.  A short term fix unless they keep upping the ante of rewards.  At the end of the day if people were not engaging in RvR when those rewards were not there, they logic dictates they will stop soon after they get those rewards which just brings the problem back again.

The motivation to do RvR still isn't for victory, pride, destroying your enemy or any of the other reasons MJ/PB hyped this game about.  The game just never really clicked on what it set out to do.  It is much closer now than it was a few months ago.  Things are heading in the right direction, so don't take this as just hateraid.  However the majority of people left this game due to the mechanics of the game not delivering.  I think it is unfair to place the blame for the condition of the game on players who somehow play the game wrong.

            Ok see now I agree with you. You're right besides the PvP it really doesn't have anything too crazy innovative. But i'm a pve guy and when I did play I did LOVE the pq's as boring as some people say they are. I've never really made it to high end raid level in any game other than L2 and eq2 so i've alway felt left out of things like that so pq's for me kinda felt like lower lvl raids that were easy to enjoy. The RVR is hit or miss when i was playing... they didn't have ORVR exp so it was kinda up to the people you were playing with to make it. Sometimes I had really fun times of teamwork and running objectives and other times it was just like running around unorginized mayhem that wasn't much fun.

I do agree that the game didn't live up to some peoples hype but i didn't feel let down by what i was expecting. I'm not subscribed now because i can't afford any more monthly subs but I may try another month soon. I still don't think the game flopped and sometimes but not always it's peoples fault for getting themselves hyyped up unjustly. But no one can say if they didn't have a game they wouldn't talk about it to prospective buyers as "The best thing ever"

Originally posted by Daffid011

The motivation to do RvR still isn't for victory, pride, destroying your enemy or any of the other reasons MJ/PB hyped this game about.  The game just never really clicked on what it set out to do.  It is much closer now than it was a few months ago.  Things are heading in the right direction, so don't take this as just hateraid.  However the majority of people left this game due to the mechanics of the game not delivering.  I think it is unfair to place the blame for the condition of the game on players who somehow play the game wrong.

 

 

 

 

Well offcourse the main goal of Orvr is to raids the enemies capital city. This however I believe only happend once on the euro servers, Mainly becouse poeple do not have the gear to take on the lords in the fortress, with is wierd becouse I recall that they said once that this game would not resolve around gear to much. So at the end it is about victory, pride and destroying you enemy. The problem however lies in the individual zones. I know they will make somewhere a guild can hold a keep and upgrade it.

This would already go a long way of giving poeple a reason to defend the keep, especialy the guild upgrading it, but then you get the problem about how easy it will be to take a keep and that in most server destro would just go take the keep in later hours (They might easily get a party to take a keep at around 1:00).

I am still loving the game and hardly any MMO kept me interested for this long, but I fear the joy in Orvr might fade soon...especialy if Darkfall delivers what they promise.

Originally posted by Yamota

Originally posted by xbellx777

Originally posted by Guillermo197

Originally posted by Miklosan

Originally posted by xbellx777

you can tell this thread is a failure just by looking at the name. Why did WAR flopped?? are you kidding me? go back to school kid

 

Well, my english may not be perfect. I'm from a non-english speaking country so sorry! Don't need to flame people just because of bad grammar tho!?

 

Dont bother reacting at that troll Miklosan. Just have a look at that persons own name (xbellx777). Seems he hasn't been to school much himself.

  i make up some random name for a site that has no credibility, then i say my piece in a flame bait of a topic that is titled "why did war flopped?"  and i get labeled a troll? sweet this sites great.

ps you shouldnt be talking about names since yours is just as lame as mine

 

 

The problem is that "your piece" is an ignorant and presumptious statement. Internet is global and many, many (like me) do not have english as their first or even second language so they are doing their best to try and communicate and I dont think anyone doesnt understand what he is saying even though they may not agree with it.

And if this site has no credibility then why are you here? You like hurting yourself?

well if you are going to produce something so ignorant like why war flopped (when all it did was not live up to expectations) you might want to get your grammar straight. because the op looks like even more of a troll thread in the warhammer section, and we just need so many more of those (sarcasm)

Agree! I should learn to get my grammar straight!  I'm learning little by little everyday but ofcourse I still got a long way to go till perfection.  Should that, my grammar, stop me from making posts on forums you mean?? I don't think so, this is one way of learning in my opinion.

However; I'm defenetaly not a "troll" againts WAR!  I followed the game since late :07.  I followed the beta closely and wathed almost every podcasts from Mythic! I kind of becamed a person who claimed all critizism by other people to be nothing but "trolling". I think I can admit that I almost becamed a so called "fan boy".    But that's not the issue here!

 Reason for my thread "Why did WAR flopped??"  is just a question to folks why they think it flopped.  Ofcourse many peoples think it didn't flopped, guess it depends how you see it.

However, for you xbellsx777:  Sorry for my lack of the english language and especially the grammar! I'm learning slowly.

Theres to much aggresion from wow players to WAR players, lots of war bashing. The game is not a failure it just doesn't have the insane player base wow has got. WAR is always an alternative to wow because the pvp system is way better.

my OPINION on why it flopped:  It bacame so much about running scenarios that the ORVR became useless/pointless.  Had they thrown out scenario's, added some more dungeons, and fleshed out the game a little with the time they wasted making scenarios and they would have had a hit.  People wanted a mmorpg with heavy RVR influence with meaning, not a wow-type game with lots more BG action!

Originally posted by Martie

Originally posted by george99

my OPINION on why it flopped:  It bacame so much about running scenarios that the ORVR became useless/pointless.  Had they thrown out scenario's, added some more dungeons, and fleshed out the game a little with the time they wasted making scenarios and they would have had a hit.  People wanted a mmorpg with heavy RVR influence with meaning, not a wow-type game with lots more BG action!

 

ORVR, was never the focus of the game.  In beta Scenarios were the main focus, they only put keeps in the opne world because there was huge whining in the beta.  The fact is the whole game was designed around scenraios.  The game design decisions  of warhammer are trully bizzare imo.  If they were just going to do a reskinned daoc, but a crapper job, they should have just spent the years making a true daoc2, or improving the existing game.  ORVR was never the foucs of warhammer end of.  Anyone that disagress this, was never actually in beta.

Yes I have seen multiple long time Beta people say this.  Although it seems wierd to me because Paul was always talking up RvR.   I think Mythic was basically using RvR to mean anything they wanted though rather than the open field PvP people assumed it meant.

Either way WARs main problem right fomr the start has been very poorly fleshed out ideas that were never made comprehensively solid.

Things like the basically insane VP.  The interaction of scenarios with other parts of the game.  The way RvR lakes were setup, the lack of any real strategy in the RVR setup (ie. the BFO cap merry go round).

All of these seem ok on their face when looked at in a quick manner and in isolation.  But when examined in detail or put into context with the rest of the game.  They are either extremely weak or just plain bizarre or in some cases flat out counter productive.

Basically they threw crap together and didn't really know what they were doing in an overall general sense.  They were just walking through a dark cave with a box of matches.  And the testing they did was a sort of self-fulfilling prophecy because it was all in isolation as well.

The game is not a game.  Its a bunch of parts shoved together.  And it was never tested as a game.  It was just tested as parts.  The whole is less than the sum of its parts.  It should be greater than the sum of its parts to be good.  Or at the very least equivalent.

Anyone following the game from early beta it should have been clear as day that the term "RvR" for WAR was never just PvP but a mix of PvP and PvP just as the "WAR is everywhere" never meant that you could PvP everywhere, just that the whole world revolved around the war, both PvE(like quests aimed at attacking the other side etc etc) and PvP. 

The statement that this game was also focused almost entirely around scenario's till they closed down the beta instead of released back over a year ago is very true. There had been 0 mention nor sight in beta of keeps till that point and when release time came around the outcry started that ORvR was seriously lacking with meaningless keepless objectives out in the field that switched hands when someone farted because they were out in the open.

It's only after that that they started adding keeps etc, so in that sense the ORvR with keeps you see now is again, sadly a "tacked on" feature rather than the main dish.

That's probably why they had so many population vulnerablities in their design without real solutions because basically in their original design that would have been a non issue with Scenario's keeping the balance.

Originally posted by Pheace

Anyone following the game from early beta it should have been clear as day that the term "RvR" for WAR was never just PvP but a mix of PvP and PvP just as the "WAR is everywhere" never meant that you could PvP everywhere, just that the whole world revolved around the war, both PvE(like quests aimed at attacking the other side etc etc) and PvP. 

 

The statement that this game was also focused almost entirely around scenario's till they closed down the beta instead of released back over a year ago is very true. There had been 0 mention nor sight in beta of keeps till that point and when release time came around the outcry started that ORvR was seriously lacking with meaningless keepless objectives out in the field that switched hands when someone farted because they were out in the open.

 

It's only after that that they started adding keeps etc, so in that sense the ORvR with keeps you see now is again, sadly a "tacked on" feature rather than the main dish.

 

That's probably why they had so many population vulnerablities in their design without real solutions because basically in their original design that would have been a non issue with Scenario's keeping the balance.

 

WAR is a pvp game.  Play on one of the ORVR servers and you will see WAR is everywhere.  Not sure what people like you want and expect.  This is a pvp centered MMO and it delivers just that.  Simply put, it is why I play.  Play what you like and stop worrying so much about WAR, a game you dont even play.
 

Originally posted by Kieth75

Theres to much aggresion from wow players to WAR players, lots of war bashing. The game is not a failure it just doesn't have the insane player base wow has got. WAR is always an alternative to wow because the pvp system is way better.

Dont always blame all the hate thread in forums on WoW players can?

The main problem to me is, Mythic forget about the importantance of leveling from  1 to  40. Its just so monotone and boring, some players just grind it thru and hope things changes for the better when they hit 40, but didnt. But the rest, like me just couldnt stand it and quit in early 20s...

On my server (which happens to be Sylvania which is a higher population server) ORvR is hugely active with a lot of fighting. Zones are regularly in contention and are being pushed along with Keeps defended. Order largely tends to outnumber Destruction unless Destruction comes out of their dungeons and coordinates. I'd say semi equal on the weekends however.

We did a lot of Fortress assaults before the last changes, and I can see them being done even more now with the reported success on the servers that had fortress assaults the night after it was implemented.

I love this game, and having a blast, and some of the stuff they previewed last month were great.

A lot is happening on my server though.

The main reason I didn't get into it is because it felt too much like a console game.  I think the reason for this is the characters were high polygon and the world was low polygon.  Yeah, stupid reason, but there it is.

The real question should be, "Did WAR flop?" because it is not entirely obvious to me that it did yet. We'll see how they manage to keep the player base happy while they fix OPvP and add new content.

The question though, "Why did WAR not meet my expectations?" is a little more resonable. For me it was two fold.

A) The mmo is a game, not a world yet which although the developers stated that fact many times before release, for what ever reason I refused to believe it until I saw how linear the gameplay was.

B) WAR has a metric TON of GREAT ideas in it that just did not mesh well.

I love the classes, I love leveling through pvp, I love the idea of zone based influence rewards, I love the idea of large scale zone wide public quests and I love open world old school castle seiges - it's just fo me none of the things I just mentioned were implemented in a way that could keep my shaman interested past level 33.

I do think WAR is in the right direction and this time next year you will see a thriving game with a great leveling system, great pvp/opvp and a top notch endgame, until then we'll see how the incrimental patches work out. =)

Originally posted by dominia

The real question should be, "Did WAR flop?" because it is not entirely obvious to me that it did yet. We'll see how they manage to keep the player base happy while they fix OPvP and add new content.

The question though, "Why did WAR not meet my expectations?" is a little more resonable. For me it was two fold.

A) The mmo is a game, not a world yet which although the developers stated that fact many times before release, for what ever reason I refused to believe it until I saw how linear the gameplay was.

B) WAR has a metric TON of GREAT ideas in it that just did not mesh well.

I love the classes, I love leveling through pvp, I love the idea of zone based influence rewards, I love the idea of large scale zone wide public quests and I love open world old school castle seiges - it's just fo me none of the things I just mentioned were implemented in a way that could keep my shaman interested past level 33.

I do think WAR is in the right direction and this time next year you will see a thriving game with a great leveling system, great pvp/opvp and a top notch endgame, until then we'll see how the incrimental patches work out. =)

I wouldn't say that WAR flopped, well maybe compared to the expectations of MJ and Barnett but not compared to most games.

Still, they have a great world and many nice ideas, the game should really have been better. I think the problem is that they made the game to similar to all the rest of the games instead of doing as they done before and make their own thing. A beefed up version of DaoC in the Warhammer world would probably worked better too.

That we have buggs, imbalances and misses content doesn't help but I don't think that are really the reason to why so many of it's players quited so fast.

They do work in the right direction but a lot of the problem is in the core game. They do try to compete with Wow on Wows terms and that is not the best move, Mythic knows how to make good games.

Like the 2 faction system, why don't they have 3 instead? It would actually fit the lore a lot better with Order, Chaos and greenskin instead of what we have now.

My hope is that they implement a lot more of the lore because that is WARs big strenght, that is what makes the game unique. I don't really see the horror/dark humor theme that made "Warhammer fantasy RPG" so great, if they start to implement that more WAR could turn into the unique gaming experience it should be.

WAR could of course be a thriving game in a year but it can also go straight in the other direction, it is all in Mythics hands. But I don't think that bugg fixing, balancing and more content (similar to the old content) is enough. Mythic must make the game further away from the other MMOs so WAR doesn't feel like one of many. I really hope they make it, I am a big fan of the IP.

I wouldn't go so far as to say the game flopped..yet..In the general context of the word. I can only speak for myself and possibly echo some thoughts of other players as to why it is not as successful as projected.

Simply put, it was not what was advertised. It was supposed to be an RVR game, much like DAoC. Never once did I see Paul Barnett on one of his tangents say, "It's Epic struggles between mortal enemies! The Posh High Elves against the ultra cool Dark Elves! The Reatrded dwarves aginst the mighty Greenskins! And the gay Humans vs the PwN Factory hordes of Chaos!!" ( he might as well though)" They are in everlasting conflict! stuggling for supremacy! In a bitter struugle for their very lives!!!! It' Such an epic struggle in fact.....they play capture the flag games over and over again."I just dont see how scenarios have any place in an RVR game. Is it because folks need a place to PVP???

Ok, you gotta be kidding me.

I remember pod casts and interviews saying how its not gonna be a grind..really? Where ISN'T it a grind?

Collison? Great!  where is it usable as a tactic? in RVR lakes its 9000 acres of open terain. Due to the way keeps trade off its not really useable in keeps.

Leveing guilds? How about LvLing chat channels...Again another great feature on paper. What a great way to create a sense of unit cohesion and community within guilds. A feature that encourages guilds to work together for a common goal. not true .. as long as people are getting xp the guild gets xp. So folks can go on soloing. How rediculous is that? A team based game people!

what they created was an individuals on this side vs individuals on this other side game. (Thank you WoW)

The concepts look great on paper but just do not work in application.

PQs..Ok reward based on contribution. Really? why does running through a zone net me a 1st place loot bag then?

The game can't handle what it is supposed to be about in essence without servers or zones crashing.

I know for me it just seemed very cardboard and too singleplayer. An RVR game thats all about personal gain and the fact you are better off soloing, dosen't make a whole lot of sense. The reason its not a Wow killer in my opinion is because Wow exists. The players are invested in the play style Wow has made the norm through its poularity, in instant gratification silver platter super easy mode solo friendly aproach.

Why was DAoC more of a success at this point in its life then, and with the new tech available and new ideas Warhammer has at its disposal not? Again Wow wasn't out when DAoC was. I hope warhammer does overcome its growingpains and obstacles, because I would go back , but the question is how long will people hold on and keep the faith that the game will turn into what was presented on paper?  As I see it now this just smacks of SWG, so I quit while I was ahead.

Only way this game flopped was because of Mythic and fanboi's way over the top expectations this game will never break the million sub mark. I fully expect the game to settle somewhere just behind LOTRO sub wise and if Mythic shallowed there pride and merged or closed two thirds of the servers the game would do just fine, as the game stands now I can see the game struggling to attract new players as the newness fades and new games are released.