Originally posted by Consensus

this is the problem with darkfall fanbois they don't know what trolling is.

those quotes are NOT trolling they are expressing an opinion. the DF fanboi definition of trolling is "somebody epressing an opinion contradictory how tasos paints darkfall".

Those are not really opinions, they are statements of facts the way he formulated them. However the difference between a troll and someone who give his opinion is that the troll post one line. He who gives and opinion explains. Also anyone contradicting tasos is a troll, I mean he is the ONLY sources of information and the person contradicting him can not have proof :P.

Back on the thread. I really doubt that there is anyone who is not a bit skeptical about the game and even the 22nd release. They have failed to deliver for years now and it would hardly supprise anyone if they do not release it on the 22nd. I sure they hope do and the game is what they say, but not waiting for it really. WIll see the 22nd what we will get. It either will be a supprising day, disapointing day or just an other regular day.  

---

Originally posted by asdar
There's a difference between being a skeptic and being a troll. Most here fall into the second category. They don't care if the game does come out, they just want to give other people a hard time.
When it does come out, they'll complain endlessly about one thing or another. The graphics will be poor or there's a bug somewhere in the world. Here's some quotes I know you will use.
"This game is unplayable.."
"The graphics are a joke.."
"Unfair.."
"They shouldn't release a game that's still in Beta..."
There's trolls in every new game. You all are the trolls in this one.
I am a skeptic, I don't assume that I'm going to jump in and love this game and that everything that I think is in the game will be there. The difference is that I don't feel the need to act superior, as if I know everything and that anyone that doesn't agree with me is stupid.
You all do, or at least most of you do.

---

You are my new hero. Everyone here needs to chill out.

" We are very sad to announce that Darkball will be delayed due to the Israeli invasion of Gaza, as the game won't be released until Israel pulls out of Gaza. Have a nice day"

I think the launch will be delayed from the 22nd because they haven't turned all the features on (or maybe even coded all of them).

I also believe that while the game might have a EU launch, unless it really delivers on its promises, there will never be a separate NA launch.

Originally posted by Kyleran

I think the launch will be delayed from the 22nd because they haven't turned all the features on (or maybe even coded all of them).

I also believe that while the game might have a EU launch, unless it really delivers on its promises, there will never be a separate NA launch.

Hello???

They haven't turned on all the Features with 15 days : 06 hrs : 46 mins : 58 secs to go before Release because they are doing targeted testing! 

Sheesh... you'd think a person would know that by now. 

Originally posted by xzyax

Originally posted by Kyleran

I think the launch will be delayed from the 22nd because they haven't turned all the features on (or maybe even coded all of them).

I also believe that while the game might have a EU launch, unless it really delivers on its promises, there will never be a separate NA launch.

Hello???

 

They haven't turned on all the Features with 15 days : 06 hrs : 46 mins : 58 secs to go before Release because they are doing targeted testing! 

 

Sheesh... you'd think a person would know that by now. 

You are correct! How could I overlook such a standard industry practice like this? 

open beta? 14 days left, there you have your free to pay to play open beta.

Only thing im sceptic about is if on 22nd i can buy me a boxed version i realy wanta darkfall boxed game in my collection.

Btw i blindly buy and play the game, but im hardcore pvp full loot fan and not have played mmo's for while becouse i cant find any that i wanne play anymore.

Last i realy played was darktide years ago:(

I play for last several years mostly solo games lol so Darkfall is my last hope hehe:)

Originally posted by fakes

open beta? 14 days left, there you have your free to pay to play open beta.

Devs never confirmed EVER a open beta so you can not be sceptic about that:P

Originally posted by Kyleran

Originally posted by xzyax

Originally posted by Kyleran

I think the launch will be delayed from the 22nd because they haven't turned all the features on (or maybe even coded all of them).

I also believe that while the game might have a EU launch, unless it really delivers on its promises, there will never be a separate NA launch.

Hello???

 

They haven't turned on all the Features with 15 days : 06 hrs : 46 mins : 58 secs to go before Release because they are doing targeted testing! 

 

Sheesh... you'd think a person would know that by now. 

 

You are correct! How could I overlook such a standard industry practice like this? 

 

 

Seems to be an industry practice for adventurine for several years now! LOL Hope the game launches on time or the treads on this forum will explode!

Originally posted by xzyax

Originally posted by Printscreen

50 internet dollars says DF isn't going to make its Jan 22, 09 deadline for whatever reason.

 

Ahh... come on.

To at least make the bet fun, you've got to predict the reason for the delay. 

To say "for whatever reason"  that's a bit too easy... so you'd have to give me 4 to 1 odds. 

If Darkfall doesn't release on the 22nd as promised, I expect Tasos to post on the forum and blame it on turkey.

The poultry or the country. Or what will happen to the Darkfall film once Uwe Boll has signed on. Doesn't really matter which.

Im just sceptic..

If it will release, it will have some sort of problem, or it will be pure bad..

But I'm thinking it will not even release in time..

Or in the best case it releases in time and all, but it's a completely souless game..

Let's fase it the big companys has spoiled us in some ways atleast, giving us voice overs, nice graphics etc, sure these games were not Darkfalls skillbased and full PvP ..
But they had something else wich I think Darkfall will miss, they felt like new computer games..I have a feeling Darkfall will feel old if it ever will get released..

/Junker

Originally posted by thark

Im just sceptic..

If it will release, it will have some sort of problem, or it will be pure bad..

But I'm thinking it will not even release in time..

Or in the best case it releases in time and all, but it's a completely souless game..

Let's fase it the big companys has spoiled us in some ways atleast, giving us voice overs, nice graphics etc, sure these games were not Darkfalls skillbased and full PvP ..
But they had something else wich I think Darkfall will miss, they felt like new computer games..I have a feeling Darkfall will feel old if it ever will get released..

/Junker

I don't particularly care if it looks old.  I'd be very satisfied with 2003-style graphics; at least I'd know my antique can run it.  What matters is the mechanics and interface -- and this is where I'm worried.

Originally posted by Vetarnias

Originally posted by thark

Im just sceptic..

If it will release, it will have some sort of problem, or it will be pure bad..

But I'm thinking it will not even release in time..

Or in the best case it releases in time and all, but it's a completely souless game..

Let's fase it the big companys has spoiled us in some ways atleast, giving us voice overs, nice graphics etc, sure these games were not Darkfalls skillbased and full PvP ..
But they had something else wich I think Darkfall will miss, they felt like new computer games..I have a feeling Darkfall will feel old if it ever will get released..

/Junker

I don't particularly care if it looks old.  I'd be very satisfied with 2003-style graphics; at least I'd know my antique can run it.  What matters is the mechanics and interface -- and this is where I'm worried.

Reports by beta leakers is that the UI is that it functional, but nothing great. Pretty much like all standard UIs.

First of all, if you're posting a new thread on this forum, any one with any opinion can post in your thread as long as they follow the mmorpg.com forum rules, and do not have to oblige to your own set of rules.

Go report me or anyone else all you want, if I'm banned or my post is deleted, it's not because you've asked for it or that I haven't followed your guidelines, but it would be  because I haven't followed the mmorpg.com forum guidelines.

Second; I'm skeptical, but I'm also hopeful. Please consider me as a non-skeptical in your classification and feel free to report, since, from what I've understood from your original post is that what you really mean by "skeptical" in your thread topic addresses anyone who is skeptical and not hopeful. I choose to disagree with you and will point my opinions in that direction to make my case contradicting to your set of rules.

It's silly to think opposite, all the fans waiting for this game have doubts and concerns (therefore skeptic); Aventurine surely followed an unconventional method of PR.

However, I, for one, think that they've also gave us enough information about the game (be it pictures, videos, interviews, updates et cetera) to settle my concerns. There are many other factors that flourish my hopes about this game that Aventurine did not directly had any effect.

When I look at the whole list of features, I don't see a big deal at all. I've been thinking about a game of this kind since I've first started to play UO and CS 10 years ago, an FPS MMORPG FFA game. Why so incredible now, it's a little too late if you ask me; 10 years.

Aventurine's odd PR methods have been a big concern for me as well, as I've pointed out already. But then, I've never thought that they're making a mistake by keeping game details from us. Who claims what's right and wrong about PR? We've seen many conventional methods for some certain games; it's not the PR that sells the game, it's the quality of the released game at the end that succeeds. A good PR helps out that inital bump, but is it mendatory? Just because you are very curious about the game, developers have no reason to supply you with the information you're seeking, and just because you've waited for this game since the beginning, they're not required to release the game a little early. You're all too spoiled, if you ask me; when did this sector start catering games for 12 year old kids who can't wait until christmas morning to open up their presents? In this case, the presents are easily spoiled when they're opened early.

The lack of PR does bring up a lot of questions, but they've also promised an open Beta, and a free trial period. Isn't that much much better than its PR spending a lot of money to get an undeserved attention to the game, give false hopes, and try to sell pre-orders?

Fact is, they're a small company with limited financial resources, and they're saving a lot of money by not spending it on ads. It's a realistic scenario that if the game succeeds to realize its promise; the game will receive the attention it deserves in every single media anyway; for free.

So why wouldn't they give any interviews, release a very detailed video, update their websites, release more detail about the features and how the dynamics (combat, melee, siege, housing) of the game works? Well, who blames them? Why would you worry about all that in the first place?

When was the last time you watched a good movie or read an interesting book that you knew what was gonna happen at the end (for the case of LoTR trilogy or SW 2 trilogies, take the example of the books - I for one read the first two LoTR books, and had no idea about its ending when I watched the last episode of the trilogy - I must say, it was quite an uplifting surprise, since I've always thought that at least 2-3 of the good characters would perish). You'll be given the cast, the director, and a 2 minute preview. What Aventurine doing is, giving us just enough information to keep us knowledgeable about the game, the features, and a gameplay video due to the pressure of many long waiting fans.

I rather like to explore everything in a game while playing it. This genre is based up on this, that you're not allowed to cheat your way up to the end; you're competing and interacting with other thousands of players. That's why, the more I'm not allowed to know about the game mechanics from the get go, the more realistic it gets. Eventually, there will be guides in stratics.com or thottbot.com; I am going to feel lucky to be among those who skilled-up and explored the map without the help of anyother guide. Now that's the challenge and excitement I like, and the reasoning behind Aventurine's secrecy is very much appreciated by me.

You may look for some conspiracies behind all these things, since these are all irregularities, and we're not used to being kept away from details about a game. But hey, there are some reliable leaks; and they're positive in my opinion. The game release and perhaps the open Beta may as well not meet the 22'nd; from what I've figured - there is no reason why it may not be possible, it sounds like everything goes with the plan. The game is said to be unusually stable for an MMORPG at its stage and rarely crashes (if ever), the contents are being unlocked and players are allowed to skill higher gradually. Please take in to attention that sandbox games testing works a little different than theme-park games. I'll give a little credit to the developers when they say their system of Beta testing is a little different then other main-stream theme-park games. In my opinion, there are no "rights" or "wrongs" in a Beta testing stage, there are delays or early releases which however cause fan dissatisfaction.

If I'm given two options, a delay in release, or an early incomplete release; I'd go for the delay. I'm just willing to be extra patient for a game that will realize a lot of my favorite features. I wouldn't mind a delay, but I'm hopeful that even a delay  won't happen.

For the concerns of how long this game took, they're a small company who set their goals high. They've promised a beta a few times, and failed to meet their deadlines; however, they've never promised a game release deadline before - now they have that for the first time. That alone casts a lot of shadows away.

Many of you dis-believers have this misconception;

If a small developer company producing an ambitious game that has a long list of features takes too long, then it must be a vaporware.

Doesn't that sound silly?

Patience my friends; go read the leaks, check the images, post on these forums. I believe all of you reading this thread are dreaming about a game like what Darkfall promisses. Let's all just hope they can realize; with a healthy doze of skepticism.

 double post..

i bet my balls this game isnt released on the 22nd.

---

Originally posted by lornj
i bet my balls this game isnt released on the 22nd.

---

never bet anything unless is sure win :D:D:D:D

but who knows there are 50%/50%

Originally posted by cosy

 

---

Originally posted by lornj
i bet my balls this game isnt released on the 22nd.

---

 

never bet anything unless is sure win :D:D:D:D

but who knows there are 50%/50%

That would be what is commonly referred to as a Hitler Bet.

Originally posted by Galaturc

First of all, if you're posting a new thread on this forum, any one with any opinion can post in your thread as long as they follow the mmorpg.com forum rules, and do not have to oblige to your own set of rules.

Go report me or anyone else all you want, if I'm banned or my post is deleted, it's not because you've asked for it or that I haven't followed your guidelines, but it would be  because I haven't followed the mmorpg.com forum guidelines.

Second; I'm skeptical, but I'm also hopeful. Please consider me as a non-skeptical in your classification and feel free to report, since, from what I've understood from your original post is that what you really mean by "skeptical" in your thread topic addresses anyone who is skeptical and not hopeful. I choose to disagree with you and will point my opinions in that direction to make my case contradicting to your set of rules.

It's silly to think opposite, all the fans waiting for this game have doubts and concerns (therefore skeptic); Aventurine surely followed an unconventional method of PR.

However, I, for one, think that they've also gave us enough information about the game (be it pictures, videos, interviews, updates et cetera) to settle my concerns. There are many other factors that flourish my hopes about this game that Aventurine did not directly had any effect.

When I look at the whole list of features, I don't see a big deal at all. I've been thinking about a game of this kind since I've first started to play UO and CS 10 years ago, an FPS MMORPG FFA game. Why so incredible now, it's a little too late if you ask me; 10 years.

Aventurine's odd PR methods have been a big concern for me as well, as I've pointed out already. But then, I've never thought that they're making a mistake by keeping game details from us. Who claims what's right and wrong about PR? We've seen many conventional methods for some certain games; it's not the PR that sells the game, it's the quality of the released game at the end that succeeds. A good PR helps out that inital bump, but is it mendatory? Just because you are very curious about the game, developers have no reason to supply you with the information you're seeking, and just because you've waited for this game since the beginning, they're not required to release the game a little early. You're all too spoiled, if you ask me; when did this sector start catering games for 12 year old kids who can't wait until christmas morning to open up their presents? In this case, the presents are easily spoiled when they're opened early.

The lack of PR does bring up a lot of questions, but they've also promised an open Beta, and a free trial period. Isn't that much much better than its PR spending a lot of money to get an undeserved attention to the game, give false hopes, and try to sell pre-orders?

Fact is, they're a small company with limited financial resources, and they're saving a lot of money by not spending it on ads. It's a realistic scenario that if the game succeeds to realize its promise; the game will receive the attention it deserves in every single media anyway; for free.

So why wouldn't they give any interviews, release a very detailed video, update their websites, release more detail about the features and how the dynamics (combat, melee, siege, housing) of the game works? Well, who blames them? Why would you worry about all that in the first place?

When was the last time you watched a good movie or read an interesting book that you knew what was gonna happen at the end (for the case of LoTR trilogy or SW 2 trilogies, take the example of the books - I for one read the first two LoTR books, and had no idea about its ending when I watched the last episode of the trilogy - I must say, it was quite an uplifting surprise, since I've always thought that at least 2-3 of the good characters would perish). You'll be given the cast, the director, and a 2 minute preview. What Aventurine doing is, giving us just enough information to keep us knowledgeable about the game, the features, and a gameplay video due to the pressure of many long waiting fans.

I rather like to explore everything in a game while playing it. This genre is based up on this, that you're not allowed to cheat your way up to the end; you're competing and interacting with other thousands of players. That's why, the more I'm not allowed to know about the game mechanics from the get go, the more realistic it gets. Eventually, there will be guides in stratics.com or thottbot.com; I am going to feel lucky to be among those who skilled-up and explored the map without the help of anyother guide. Now that's the challenge and excitement I like, and the reasoning behind Aventurine's secrecy is very much appreciated by me.

You may look for some conspiracies behind all these things, since these are all irregularities, and we're not used to being kept away from details about a game. But hey, there are some reliable leaks; and they're positive in my opinion. The game release and perhaps the open Beta may as well not meet the 22'nd; from what I've figured - there is no reason why it may not be possible, it sounds like everything goes with the plan. The game is said to be unusually stable for an MMORPG at its stage and rarely crashes (if ever), the contents are being unlocked and players are allowed to skill higher gradually. Please take in to attention that sandbox games testing works a little different than theme-park games. I'll give a little credit to the developers when they say their system of Beta testing is a little different then other main-stream theme-park games. In my opinion, there are no "rights" or "wrongs" in a Beta testing stage, there are delays or early releases which however cause fan dissatisfaction.

If I'm given two options, a delay in release, or an early incomplete release; I'd go for the delay. I'm just willing to be extra patient for a game that will realize a lot of my favorite features. I wouldn't mind a delay, but I'm hopeful that even a delay  won't happen.

For the concerns of how long this game took, they're a small company who set their goals high. They've promised a beta a few times, and failed to meet their deadlines; however, they've never promised a game release deadline before - now they have that for the first time. That alone casts a lot of shadows away.

Many of you dis-believers have this misconception;

If a small developer company producing an ambitious game that has a long list of features takes too long, then it must be a vaporware.

Doesn't that sound silly?

Patience my friends; go read the leaks, check the images, post on these forums. I believe all of you reading this thread are dreaming about a game like what Darkfall promisses. Let's all just hope they can realize; with a healthy doze of skepticism.

Heh...  you better not visit this thread then. 

www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/218217

Of course i am skeptic, i think everyone on this forum is a bit skeptic, even the ones frothing at the mouth about Darkfall.

Darkfall has a HUGE list of stuff that is supposed to be in game, granted not much of it is stuff that hasnt been in a game before but still a Huge list. Makes me wonder if they can produce it all.

Darkfall does not have a great record of meeting timelines. Im fine with that, they can take as long as they want, but it makes me think that the 22nd is probably not going to happen.

I am not a die hard PVP fan so i dont even know if i will like the game.

And lastly and most importantly, it is a game that i have yet to play, and since i have not really liked a just released game since DAOC came out and i have really disliked a number of them im not getting my hopes up.

Originally posted by safwd

Of course i am skeptic, i think everyone on this forum is a bit skeptic, even the ones frothing at the mouth about Darkfall.

Darkfall has a HUGE list of stuff that is supposed to be in game, granted not much of it is stuff that hasnt been in a game before but still a Huge list. Makes me wonder if they can produce it all.

Darkfall does not have a great record of meeting timelines. Im fine with that, they can take as long as they want, but it makes me think that the 22nd is probably not going to happen.

I am not a die hard PVP fan so i dont even know if i will like the game.

And lastly and most importantly, it is a game that i have yet to play, and since i have not really liked a just released game since DAOC came out and i have really disliked a number of them im not getting my hopes up.

Sounds like you're on the right track.

It's those that hype up a game to impossible expectations that later cause them to founder in forum chaos.

We'll just have to wait and see what the 22nd brings... 16 days and counting.

Originally posted by Galaturc

First of all, if you're posting a new thread on this forum, any one with any opinion can post in your thread as long as they follow the mmorpg.com forum rules, and do not have to oblige to your own set of rules.

Go report me or anyone else all you want, if I'm banned or my post is deleted, it's not because you've asked for it or that I haven't followed your guidelines, but it would be  because I haven't followed the mmorpg.com forum guidelines.

Second; I'm skeptical, but I'm also hopeful. Please consider me as a non-skeptical in your classification and feel free to report, since, from what I've understood from your original post is that what you really mean by "skeptical" in your thread topic addresses anyone who is skeptical and not hopeful. I choose to disagree with you and will point my opinions in that direction to make my case contradicting to your set of rules.

It's silly to think opposite, all the fans waiting for this game have doubts and concerns (therefore skeptic); Aventurine surely followed an unconventional method of PR.

However, I, for one, think that they've also gave us enough information about the game (be it pictures, videos, interviews, updates et cetera) to settle my concerns. There are many other factors that flourish my hopes about this game that Aventurine did not directly had any effect.

When I look at the whole list of features, I don't see a big deal at all. I've been thinking about a game of this kind since I've first started to play UO and CS 10 years ago, an FPS MMORPG FFA game. Why so incredible now, it's a little too late if you ask me; 10 years.

Aventurine's odd PR methods have been a big concern for me as well, as I've pointed out already. But then, I've never thought that they're making a mistake by keeping game details from us. Who claims what's right and wrong about PR? We've seen many conventional methods for some certain games; it's not the PR that sells the game, it's the quality of the released game at the end that succeeds. A good PR helps out that inital bump, but is it mendatory? Just because you are very curious about the game, developers have no reason to supply you with the information you're seeking, and just because you've waited for this game since the beginning, they're not required to release the game a little early. You're all too spoiled, if you ask me; when did this sector start catering games for 12 year old kids who can't wait until christmas morning to open up their presents? In this case, the presents are easily spoiled when they're opened early.

The lack of PR does bring up a lot of questions, but they've also promised an open Beta, and a free trial period. Isn't that much much better than its PR spending a lot of money to get an undeserved attention to the game, give false hopes, and try to sell pre-orders?

Fact is, they're a small company with limited financial resources, and they're saving a lot of money by not spending it on ads. It's a realistic scenario that if the game succeeds to realize its promise; the game will receive the attention it deserves in every single media anyway; for free.

So why wouldn't they give any interviews, release a very detailed video, update their websites, release more detail about the features and how the dynamics (combat, melee, siege, housing) of the game works? Well, who blames them? Why would you worry about all that in the first place?

When was the last time you watched a good movie or read an interesting book that you knew what was gonna happen at the end (for the case of LoTR trilogy or SW 2 trilogies, take the example of the books - I for one read the first two LoTR books, and had no idea about its ending when I watched the last episode of the trilogy - I must say, it was quite an uplifting surprise, since I've always thought that at least 2-3 of the good characters would perish). You'll be given the cast, the director, and a 2 minute preview. What Aventurine doing is, giving us just enough information to keep us knowledgeable about the game, the features, and a gameplay video due to the pressure of many long waiting fans.

I rather like to explore everything in a game while playing it. This genre is based up on this, that you're not allowed to cheat your way up to the end; you're competing and interacting with other thousands of players. That's why, the more I'm not allowed to know about the game mechanics from the get go, the more realistic it gets. Eventually, there will be guides in stratics.com or thottbot.com; I am going to feel lucky to be among those who skilled-up and explored the map without the help of anyother guide. Now that's the challenge and excitement I like, and the reasoning behind Aventurine's secrecy is very much appreciated by me.

You may look for some conspiracies behind all these things, since these are all irregularities, and we're not used to being kept away from details about a game. But hey, there are some reliable leaks; and they're positive in my opinion. The game release and perhaps the open Beta may as well not meet the 22'nd; from what I've figured - there is no reason why it may not be possible, it sounds like everything goes with the plan. The game is said to be unusually stable for an MMORPG at its stage and rarely crashes (if ever), the contents are being unlocked and players are allowed to skill higher gradually. Please take in to attention that sandbox games testing works a little different than theme-park games. I'll give a little credit to the developers when they say their system of Beta testing is a little different then other main-stream theme-park games. In my opinion, there are no "rights" or "wrongs" in a Beta testing stage, there are delays or early releases which however cause fan dissatisfaction.

If I'm given two options, a delay in release, or an early incomplete release; I'd go for the delay. I'm just willing to be extra patient for a game that will realize a lot of my favorite features. I wouldn't mind a delay, but I'm hopeful that even a delay  won't happen.

For the concerns of how long this game took, they're a small company who set their goals high. They've promised a beta a few times, and failed to meet their deadlines; however, they've never promised a game release deadline before - now they have that for the first time. That alone casts a lot of shadows away.

Many of you dis-believers have this misconception;

If a small developer company producing an ambitious game that has a long list of features takes too long, then it must be a vaporware.

Doesn't that sound silly?

Patience my friends; go read the leaks, check the images, post on these forums. I believe all of you reading this thread are dreaming about a game like what Darkfall promisses. Let's all just hope they can realize; with a healthy doze of skepticism.

Nice wall of text

But this is a thread in response to www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/218217 so I wouldn't stress to much about this thread lol.

OT: I'm skeptical because they have about 1k beta testers with less then 3 wks remaining. The NDA is still strong and all leaks are suspect. 

So far Darkfall has many reasons for large amounts for skepticism.  And little reason to be encouraged.   

I really do dread if Darkfall does succeed,  because it will have shown developers they can treat the community like garbage and get away with it. 

I highly doubt it's done because I haven't seen a MMO in a long time that was "done" before launch. Hell I haven't seen any PC game that didn't require a patch since 94 when patches just started. I remember when Maximum the video gaming magazine bitched about patching back in 95 when patches were only a meg at most

 Hell a 1 meg patch using compuserve @ a blistering 14k baud took forever..especially when compuserve constantly crashed during the DL

The premise of the game looks good but so have so many others recently.. and look how they turned out

Just hope they release it when it's done instead of the AOC/Vanguard/D&L/SWG crap that is the norm now.