Originally posted by Blodpls

 Seriously this is retarded, if you went into a shop and said "I want to buy the xgadget 2000 when it launches in 3 weeks time, how much will it cost" and the guy said "I don't know" that is disreputable business??

That's what computers are for. Most businesses can look up the SKU number for an item and find out how much something will cost. If I go to Gamestop and pre-order a game weeks before it comes out, I'll know just how much it will cost me.

For example, I've already pre-ordered The Sims 3. I know the collector's edition will run me $69.95 plus sales tax. I know what will come with it. I know the system specs for it already (they were released back in December) and that my computer can easily run it, and where and when to buy it. The game doesn't come out until late February, yet I have all of that information now, almost a month and a half before it is released.

Likewise, when I pre-ordered both my XBox 360 and Wii systems, I knew exactly how much they were going to cost me, extra controllers and accessories included, months in advance. I even had them completely paid off by the time the consoles came out just due to the shortages they had in the beginning, enabling me to get them that much faster because I was already paid up and ready to go.

Honestly, if I walked into a store and asked about an item and the clerk told me that, and didn't bother to do anything else to try and find out for me, I'd just go to another store. That's just laziness on that clerk's part in this day and age.

All though it does pain me deeply as so much of my own personal validation and motivation was based purely on that once high level of personal regard Mcpoopypantz held for me I will endeavor to continue on some how, some way without it.

Sad and yes funny thing is my version of events is probably a lot closer to the truth then some people would like to admit, hence the nasty hurtful comments that make me sad and cry a little.

Originally posted by Ashrik

Let us continue to compare the computer games industries to other industries that do things in a different manner for different reasons, in order to continue this parade of stupidity!

Hey man- it'd be fine if CVS didn't know the price for the new twizzler strawberries 17 days before they got released! So it's fine for me here.

There's a million and one excuses we can make for Aventurine not releasing information as the "release date" slips closer and closer. heh, but I've yet to hear one as dumb as "well I personally am okay with not having the info, so they have no reason to give it to anyone". It's a new height. Or perhaps a new low.

I liked it, Polarization. In your time of despair, for losing the respect of one mcpoopypantz, I'd like to offer you my deepest condolences. The nights ahead will be cold and loney after this aburpt change, but I'm sure you will have the strength to carry on.

LOL!

Come on people that was darn funny stuff right there.  I'd bet even mcpoopy smiled on that one. 

A little banter and some light sarcasm are a good way to end the work day.  Hopefully people haven't lost their sense of humor on these forums.  It is just a silly video game in the end, but forums are forever. 

Originally posted by Lidane 

That's what computers are for. Most businesses can look up the SKU number for an item and find out how much something will cost. If I go to Gamestop and pre-order a game weeks before it comes out, I'll know just how much it will cost me.

For example, I've already pre-ordered The Sims 3. I know the collector's edition will run me $69.95 plus sales tax. I know what will come with it. I know the system specs for it already (they were released back in December) and that my computer can easily run it, and where and when to buy it. The game doesn't come out until late February, yet I have all of that information now, almost a month and a half before it is released.

Likewise, when I pre-ordered both my XBox 360 and Wii systems, I knew exactly how much they were going to cost me, extra controllers and accessories included, months in advance. I even had them completely paid off by the time the consoles came out just due to the shortages they had in the beginning, enabling me to get them that much faster because I was already paid up and ready to go.

Honestly, if I walked into a store and asked about an item and the clerk told me that, and didn't bother to do anything else to try and find out for me, I'd just go to another store. That's just laziness on that clerk's part in this day and age.

The highlighted words show the obvious differences between this situation and ones you are describing.

Originally posted by Blodpls

The highlighted words show the obvious differences between this situation and ones you are describing.

So only games that have pre-orders are obligated to tell their customers how much a game will cost in advance, or how much they will have to spend on monthly fees, what the system specs are, or even how and where to buy the game in the first place?

You can't possibly be serious.

Originally posted by Lidane 

So only games that have pre-orders are obligated to tell their customers how much a game will cost in advance, or how much they will have to spend on monthly fees, or even how and where to buy the game in the first place?

You can't possibly be serious.

Yes they are obligated to tell them this information when the service becomes available to purchase as it was in the case of your pre-orders.  If you asked before pre-orders started to be taken they might not have been able to give you a price.

Originally posted by Blodpls

Yes they are obligated to tell them when the service is available to purchase.

LOL! Ok...now I know you're not serious, and you're just being contrary for the sake of being contrary.

No reasonable consumer is fine with just being told how much something costs, or if they can even run it in the first place at the moment they're buying a product. That's just stupidity in action, especially for an MMO.

Originally posted by Lidane 

LOL! Ok...now I know you're not serious, and you're just being contrary for the sake of being contrary.

No reasonable consumer is fine with just being told how much something costs, or if they can even run it in the first place at the moment they're buying a product. That's just stupidity in action, especially for an MMO.

Yes I am being deliberately contrary, it is obvious that it would be in Aventurine's and the consumers best interest to make this info available as far in advance as possible, and it does make you wonder wtf they are doing to not make this publically available 2 weeks before launch. 

However I don't agree that it necessary to provide it beforehand or that the consumer needs it or that it is disreputable not to provide it.  Really it just spoon feeding the customer, which everyone likes if your buying something.  Assuming that this is sign of them being dodgy really is being prejudgemental even if all the evidence does point that way, I just think it's unfair for people to call them out on this before the game actually launches, it's all speculation but people dress it up as fact.  I personally will remain open minded to this until a product is available, then you can make real judgements instead of just speculation.

Also I don't care about them not releasing it because it's obvious that it will be £25-35 for the client and a £10 for subs or the euro equivalent like every other mmo is

@sanders01

"USD is worth more or is equal to the Euro now.. so it depends."

1 Euro = 1.3617 U.S. dollars,

lol?

They aren't obligated to you because you aren't a customer until you purchase the game. However, if they lose sales over it its their loss and a bad move but it's their choice. When it comes to how taxes will be charged as a consumer it's your responsibility to know tax laws. Now if EU's/greece's tax laws are similar to the Unitd states 1. you pay sales tax at the point of purchase. 2. you don't pay sales tax on intangibles goods, so if you download the game there is no sales tax.

Originally posted by Blodpls

Originally posted by Lidane 

So only games that have pre-orders are obligated to tell their customers how much a game will cost in advance, or how much they will have to spend on monthly fees, or even how and where to buy the game in the first place?

You can't possibly be serious.

 

Yes they are obligated to tell them this information when the service becomes available to purchase as it was in the case of your pre-orders.  If you asked before pre-orders started to be taken they might not have been able to give you a price.

So if Aventurine isn't offering us a service... what are they doing?

Some might even go so far as to say that if they don't have a service they are trying to offer... then the service might not even exist? 

Now for myself I do believe that Aventurine does have some sort of service they will eventually offer.  They are just very inept in their way of managing that service.  Hopefully their inexperience and mismanagement won't deal DarkFall a fatal blow before it's even been given a chace to survive... but it's been done before... so not beyond the realm of possibility. 

By them waiting until the last possible moment to reveal what the terms of their service will be; does nothing to enhance the service whatsoever. 

For some products, yes... waiting until the last possible moment and then surprising your customers can be enjoyable.  An MMO is NOT one of those products. 

Originally posted by xzyax 

So if Aventurine isn't offering us a service... what are they doing?

Show me where I can sign up for this service and I will agree that they are offering one.

I really have found the new low in the lack of business sense in this thread.

Some people are a bit slow and some are down right ignorant (won't name names). If anyone thinks that this is commont business practice  then they need to head back to their nursery school class.

Hell the Granddaddy of scams DnL even released information far in advance of the non-delivery delivery of their non-product.

If these devs are this clueless about business this company is going to be very short lived.

Originally posted by Blodpls

However I don't agree that it necessary to provide it beforehand or that the consumer needs it or that it is disreputable not to provide it.  Really it just spoon feeding the customer, which everyone likes if your buying something. 

I don't consider it spoon feeding. I consider it a case of a reputable business wanting to give potential customers as much information as possible about their product before it's released. That's what most businesses do when they have a product they want to sell people, and when they're proud of the work they've done.

For a pay-to-play MMO in particular, this is a big deal. People should know 2+ weeks before launch what the system specs are. They should know about pricing, monthly fees, taxes, billing, and where and how to purchase the game at all. Expecting people to go in blindly just because they've been waiting for Darkfall for all these years is stupid. If Aventurine is seriously wanting to release this game, they need to level with their potential customers, particularly because the purported release date is 17 days away.

Assuming that this is sign of them being dodgy really is being prejudgemental even if all the evidence does point that way, I just think it's fair for people to call them out on this before the game actually launches, it's all speculation but people dress it up as fact.

It's speculation because for damn near every other MMO that's released in the last several years, by now (2+ weeks to release) people generally have a lot more information to go on.

I mean, come on-- there's not even any info on where  to buy the game when it comes out, much less anything more substantive, like cost, monthly fees, billing, and system specs. The whole situation reeks of a dodgy company trying to make a fast buck off of folks who genuinely want to play the game they believe in so strongly, and that's wrong. Aventurine needs to stop dancing around the questions that people are asking and finally put up or shut up. Enough is enough, IMO, especially so close to release.

We'll know in 17 days, but right now it just doesn't pass the smell test.

so let me get this straight... we download this on 22nd, play on a trial period, the decide if we want p2p?

I love how the OP was trying to be witty and nobody got it >_<.  He is saying that Europe is a chance for north americans to test the game, like a beta, not an actual beta.   The question was, are the north americans eager enough to buy the game twice.

I have been avidly watching for more news on this game, but am slowly coming to beleive this person's point of view. 16 days out from a supposed launch...and no news? No pricing, no pre-order, no details at all.....

Reality is that communication, of any sort is good. There has not been enough from the developers of this game. It has made people mistrustful, and downright derisive. I don't blame them....

Originally posted by Polarization

Ok, I can see there's some confusion and misapprehension about Darkfalls launch on the 22nd so ill clear things up for all you guys.

I can personally assure all of you that Darkfalls release will be handled in a highly professional and competent manner.

On or before the 22nd Tasos will post a link for a bit torrent on the news section for the open beta client so we will all be ready to participate in the open beta after it has finished.

Alternatively after the 22nd you can contact him by email requesting a copy of the release client which he will burn personally for you on a blank CD using his laptop with the words DF Client V 1.0 written on the front with a black marker pen which you will receive in the post sometime "soon" along with a 5 page photocopied game guide in Greek language only.

Tasos mum, girl friend and other assorted members of his family and friends will be manning the phones at his house 24/7 and will be willing and available to handle the billing and any customer and technical support enquires you may have.

All that will be required is that you have the necessary funds in your pay pall account ready or a check book, envelope and a postage stamp so you can receive your account key.

Aventurine believe that any answers to your questions about the system requirements, the cost of the client and the subscription fee or any other questions surrounding open beta and release or even exactly what features will be implemented for release would only ruin the surprise for us.

Originally posted by Xiliaro

I love how the OP was trying to be witty and nobody got it >_<.  He is saying that Europe is a chance for north americans to test the game, like a beta, not an actual beta.   The question was, are the north americans eager enough to buy the game twice.

shamefully... i would... as I'm waiting on the relaunch of Hellgate in the states by Hanabitsoft... i would do the same for DF... looks good so far, and i'm hungry for something that could replace RFonlines pvp gankfest of 200+ player wars every 4 hours.

Originally posted by Gnomad

I really have found the new low in the lack of business sense in this thread.

Some people are a bit slow and some are down right ignorant (won't name names). If anyone thinks that this is commont business practice  then they need to head back to their nursery school class.

Hell the Granddaddy of scams DnL even released information far in advance of the non-delivery delivery of their non-product.

If these devs are this clueless about business this company is going to be very short lived.

That person doesn't get the idea of it, he's too busy with facts. And that's not how the world works.

To Xiliaro, I got it a few pages ago. Even asked the OP

Originally posted by Joliust

They aren't obligated to you because you aren't a customer until you purchase the game. However, if they lose sales over it its their loss and a bad move but it's their choice. When it comes to how taxes will be charged as a consumer it's your responsibility to know tax laws. Now if EU's/greece's tax laws are similar to the Unitd states 1. you pay sales tax at the point of purchase. 2. you don't pay sales tax on intangibles goods, so if you download the game there is no sales tax.

Someone from the EU would be better than I at explaining the VAT.  It's not the same as a sales tax. 

For most MMOs those from NA haven't had to worry about the VAT because there has been a NA publisher and/or billing agent involved.  So, those in the NA were basically isolated from any VAT transactions.

Since those of us in NA will be having to download, purchase, and suscribe without any NA publisher and/or billing agent involved; that won't necessarily be the case for us this time. 

I am unsure how it will work with Aventurine, as I've never used a service from the EU without going through some sort of NA intermediate company that took care of that for me.

Does our CC company take care of the VAT if we are indeed subject to it?

Are we supposed to mail in our VAT to the appropriate Greece VAT collection agency?

I really have no idea.  I just know that for other services that I've used that involve a company originating in the EU... they go through quite a bit of work to make sure it all works according to the EU's VAT laws.  A company from the EU can get into quite a bit of trouble if they don't collect and pay the appropriate amount for each person.

I was told by some reliable sources that the game will launch on the 1st of april.

Originally posted by Blodpls

Originally posted by xzyax 

So if Aventurine isn't offering us a service... what are they doing?

Show me where I can sign up for this service and I will agree that they are offering one.

Heh... you didn't answer the second part.   Then what are they doing?

Originally posted by mrdoublerr

I was told by some reliable sources that the game will launch on the 1st of april.

WTB Midnight mile-long queue lines on March 31st. OH wait, they don't sell boxes, it's only download! Doh!

Originally posted by hidden1

so let me get this straight... we download this on 22nd, play on a trial period, the decide if we want p2p?

Yep... but until then... NO INFO FOR YOU!  

Oh, and by the way... before you get to play the "trial period" you will need to put in your CC # information... purely for "identification purposes only". 

Originally posted by xzyax

Originally posted by Joliust

They aren't obligated to you because you aren't a customer until you purchase the game. However, if they lose sales over it its their loss and a bad move but it's their choice. When it comes to how taxes will be charged as a consumer it's your responsibility to know tax laws. Now if EU's/greece's tax laws are similar to the Unitd states 1. you pay sales tax at the point of purchase. 2. you don't pay sales tax on intangibles goods, so if you download the game there is no sales tax.

Someone from the EU would be better than I at explaining the VAT.  It's not the same as a sales tax. 

 

For most MMOs those from NA haven't had to worry about the VAT because there has been a NA publisher and/or billing agent involved.  So, those in the NA were basically isolated from any VAT transactions.

 

Since those of us in NA will be having to download, purchase, and suscribe without any NA publisher and/or billing agent involved; that won't necessarily be the case for us this time. 

I am unsure how it will work with Aventurine, as I've never used a service from the EU without going through some sort of NA intermediate company that took care of that for me.

 

Does our CC company take care of the VAT if we are indeed subject to it?

Are we supposed to mail in our VAT to the appropriate Greece VAT collection agency?

 

I really have no idea.  I just know that for other services that I've used that involve a company originating in the EU... they go through quite a bit of work to make sure it all works according to the EU's VAT laws.  A company from the EU can get into quite a bit of trouble if they don't collect and pay the appropriate amount for each person.

 

i want to play this bad, but ... i would like to purchase and subscribe through a NA distributer/publisher... if i subscibe through greece, and get my pc and account hacked, i can't really do anything about it.. but at least through an NA publisher it can get reported and something could be done, at least to protect your account i would think... but hell i'll probably subscribe or not in the first few hours or play i'm sure