Originally posted by Blodpls

Originally posted by Lidane 

So only games that have pre-orders are obligated to tell their customers how much a game will cost in advance, or how much they will have to spend on monthly fees, or even how and where to buy the game in the first place?

You can't possibly be serious.

 

Yes they are obligated to tell them this information when the service becomes available to purchase as it was in the case of your pre-orders.  If you asked before pre-orders started to be taken they might not have been able to give you a price.

So if Aventurine isn't offering us a service... what are they doing?

Some might even go so far as to say that if they don't have a service they are trying to offer... then the service might not even exist? 

Now for myself I do believe that Aventurine does have some sort of service they will eventually offer.  They are just very inept in their way of managing that service.  Hopefully their inexperience and mismanagement won't deal DarkFall a fatal blow before it's even been given a chace to survive... but it's been done before... so not beyond the realm of possibility. 

By them waiting until the last possible moment to reveal what the terms of their service will be; does nothing to enhance the service whatsoever. 

For some products, yes... waiting until the last possible moment and then surprising your customers can be enjoyable.  An MMO is NOT one of those products. 

Originally posted by xzyax 

So if Aventurine isn't offering us a service... what are they doing?

Show me where I can sign up for this service and I will agree that they are offering one.

I really have found the new low in the lack of business sense in this thread.

Some people are a bit slow and some are down right ignorant (won't name names). If anyone thinks that this is commont business practice  then they need to head back to their nursery school class.

Hell the Granddaddy of scams DnL even released information far in advance of the non-delivery delivery of their non-product.

If these devs are this clueless about business this company is going to be very short lived.

Originally posted by Blodpls

However I don't agree that it necessary to provide it beforehand or that the consumer needs it or that it is disreputable not to provide it.  Really it just spoon feeding the customer, which everyone likes if your buying something. 

I don't consider it spoon feeding. I consider it a case of a reputable business wanting to give potential customers as much information as possible about their product before it's released. That's what most businesses do when they have a product they want to sell people, and when they're proud of the work they've done.

For a pay-to-play MMO in particular, this is a big deal. People should know 2+ weeks before launch what the system specs are. They should know about pricing, monthly fees, taxes, billing, and where and how to purchase the game at all. Expecting people to go in blindly just because they've been waiting for Darkfall for all these years is stupid. If Aventurine is seriously wanting to release this game, they need to level with their potential customers, particularly because the purported release date is 17 days away.

Assuming that this is sign of them being dodgy really is being prejudgemental even if all the evidence does point that way, I just think it's fair for people to call them out on this before the game actually launches, it's all speculation but people dress it up as fact.

It's speculation because for damn near every other MMO that's released in the last several years, by now (2+ weeks to release) people generally have a lot more information to go on.

I mean, come on-- there's not even any info on where  to buy the game when it comes out, much less anything more substantive, like cost, monthly fees, billing, and system specs. The whole situation reeks of a dodgy company trying to make a fast buck off of folks who genuinely want to play the game they believe in so strongly, and that's wrong. Aventurine needs to stop dancing around the questions that people are asking and finally put up or shut up. Enough is enough, IMO, especially so close to release.

We'll know in 17 days, but right now it just doesn't pass the smell test.

so let me get this straight... we download this on 22nd, play on a trial period, the decide if we want p2p?

I love how the OP was trying to be witty and nobody got it >_<.  He is saying that Europe is a chance for north americans to test the game, like a beta, not an actual beta.   The question was, are the north americans eager enough to buy the game twice.

I have been avidly watching for more news on this game, but am slowly coming to beleive this person's point of view. 16 days out from a supposed launch...and no news? No pricing, no pre-order, no details at all.....

Reality is that communication, of any sort is good. There has not been enough from the developers of this game. It has made people mistrustful, and downright derisive. I don't blame them....

Originally posted by Polarization

Ok, I can see there's some confusion and misapprehension about Darkfalls launch on the 22nd so ill clear things up for all you guys.

I can personally assure all of you that Darkfalls release will be handled in a highly professional and competent manner.

On or before the 22nd Tasos will post a link for a bit torrent on the news section for the open beta client so we will all be ready to participate in the open beta after it has finished.

Alternatively after the 22nd you can contact him by email requesting a copy of the release client which he will burn personally for you on a blank CD using his laptop with the words DF Client V 1.0 written on the front with a black marker pen which you will receive in the post sometime "soon" along with a 5 page photocopied game guide in Greek language only.

Tasos mum, girl friend and other assorted members of his family and friends will be manning the phones at his house 24/7 and will be willing and available to handle the billing and any customer and technical support enquires you may have.

All that will be required is that you have the necessary funds in your pay pall account ready or a check book, envelope and a postage stamp so you can receive your account key.

Aventurine believe that any answers to your questions about the system requirements, the cost of the client and the subscription fee or any other questions surrounding open beta and release or even exactly what features will be implemented for release would only ruin the surprise for us.

Originally posted by Xiliaro

I love how the OP was trying to be witty and nobody got it >_<.  He is saying that Europe is a chance for north americans to test the game, like a beta, not an actual beta.   The question was, are the north americans eager enough to buy the game twice.

shamefully... i would... as I'm waiting on the relaunch of Hellgate in the states by Hanabitsoft... i would do the same for DF... looks good so far, and i'm hungry for something that could replace RFonlines pvp gankfest of 200+ player wars every 4 hours.

Originally posted by Gnomad

I really have found the new low in the lack of business sense in this thread.

Some people are a bit slow and some are down right ignorant (won't name names). If anyone thinks that this is commont business practice  then they need to head back to their nursery school class.

Hell the Granddaddy of scams DnL even released information far in advance of the non-delivery delivery of their non-product.

If these devs are this clueless about business this company is going to be very short lived.

That person doesn't get the idea of it, he's too busy with facts. And that's not how the world works.

To Xiliaro, I got it a few pages ago. Even asked the OP

Originally posted by Joliust

They aren't obligated to you because you aren't a customer until you purchase the game. However, if they lose sales over it its their loss and a bad move but it's their choice. When it comes to how taxes will be charged as a consumer it's your responsibility to know tax laws. Now if EU's/greece's tax laws are similar to the Unitd states 1. you pay sales tax at the point of purchase. 2. you don't pay sales tax on intangibles goods, so if you download the game there is no sales tax.

Someone from the EU would be better than I at explaining the VAT.  It's not the same as a sales tax. 

For most MMOs those from NA haven't had to worry about the VAT because there has been a NA publisher and/or billing agent involved.  So, those in the NA were basically isolated from any VAT transactions.

Since those of us in NA will be having to download, purchase, and suscribe without any NA publisher and/or billing agent involved; that won't necessarily be the case for us this time. 

I am unsure how it will work with Aventurine, as I've never used a service from the EU without going through some sort of NA intermediate company that took care of that for me.

Does our CC company take care of the VAT if we are indeed subject to it?

Are we supposed to mail in our VAT to the appropriate Greece VAT collection agency?

I really have no idea.  I just know that for other services that I've used that involve a company originating in the EU... they go through quite a bit of work to make sure it all works according to the EU's VAT laws.  A company from the EU can get into quite a bit of trouble if they don't collect and pay the appropriate amount for each person.

I was told by some reliable sources that the game will launch on the 1st of april.

Originally posted by Blodpls

Originally posted by xzyax 

So if Aventurine isn't offering us a service... what are they doing?

Show me where I can sign up for this service and I will agree that they are offering one.

Heh... you didn't answer the second part.   Then what are they doing?

Originally posted by mrdoublerr

I was told by some reliable sources that the game will launch on the 1st of april.

WTB Midnight mile-long queue lines on March 31st. OH wait, they don't sell boxes, it's only download! Doh!

Originally posted by hidden1

so let me get this straight... we download this on 22nd, play on a trial period, the decide if we want p2p?

Yep... but until then... NO INFO FOR YOU!  

Oh, and by the way... before you get to play the "trial period" you will need to put in your CC # information... purely for "identification purposes only". 

Originally posted by xzyax

Originally posted by Joliust

They aren't obligated to you because you aren't a customer until you purchase the game. However, if they lose sales over it its their loss and a bad move but it's their choice. When it comes to how taxes will be charged as a consumer it's your responsibility to know tax laws. Now if EU's/greece's tax laws are similar to the Unitd states 1. you pay sales tax at the point of purchase. 2. you don't pay sales tax on intangibles goods, so if you download the game there is no sales tax.

Someone from the EU would be better than I at explaining the VAT.  It's not the same as a sales tax. 

 

For most MMOs those from NA haven't had to worry about the VAT because there has been a NA publisher and/or billing agent involved.  So, those in the NA were basically isolated from any VAT transactions.

 

Since those of us in NA will be having to download, purchase, and suscribe without any NA publisher and/or billing agent involved; that won't necessarily be the case for us this time. 

I am unsure how it will work with Aventurine, as I've never used a service from the EU without going through some sort of NA intermediate company that took care of that for me.

 

Does our CC company take care of the VAT if we are indeed subject to it?

Are we supposed to mail in our VAT to the appropriate Greece VAT collection agency?

 

I really have no idea.  I just know that for other services that I've used that involve a company originating in the EU... they go through quite a bit of work to make sure it all works according to the EU's VAT laws.  A company from the EU can get into quite a bit of trouble if they don't collect and pay the appropriate amount for each person.

 

i want to play this bad, but ... i would like to purchase and subscribe through a NA distributer/publisher... if i subscibe through greece, and get my pc and account hacked, i can't really do anything about it.. but at least through an NA publisher it can get reported and something could be done, at least to protect your account i would think... but hell i'll probably subscribe or not in the first few hours or play i'm sure
 

Originally posted by Xiliaro

I love how the OP was trying to be witty and nobody got it >_<.  He is saying that Europe is a chance for north americans to test the game, like a beta, not an actual beta.   The question was, are the north americans eager enough to buy the game twice.

Most of us got it... I think. 

We just decided that having our own little debate was more interesting. 

Originally posted by Lidane

Originally posted by Blodpls It's speculation because for damn near every other MMO that's released in the last several years, by now (2+ weeks to release) people generally have a lot more information to go on.

I don't consider it spoon feeding. I consider it a case of a reputable business wanting to give potential customers as much information as possible about their product before it's released. That's what most businesses do when they have a product they want to sell people, and when they're proud of the work they've done.

For a pay-to-play MMO in particular, this is a big deal. People should know 2+ weeks before launch what the system specs are. They should know about pricing, monthly fees, taxes, billing, and where and how to purchase the game at all. Expecting people to go in blindly just because they've been waiting for Darkfall for all these years is stupid. If Aventurine is seriously wanting to release this game, they need to level with their potential customers, particularly because the purported release date is 17 days away.

I mean, come on-- there's not even any info on where  to buy the game when it comes out, much less anything more substantive, like cost, monthly fees, billing, and system specs. The whole situation reeks of a dodgy company trying to make a fast buck off of folks who genuinely want to play the game they believe in so strongly, and that's wrong. Aventurine needs to stop dancing around the questions that people are asking and finally put up or shut up. Enough is enough, IMO, especially so close to release.

We'll know in 17 days, but right now it just doesn't pass the smell test.

 

It may be a big deal to you but for most people it isn't.  If this game turns out to be good then most people who will eventually buy it haven't even heard of Darkfall at this current time or it has not registered on their radar screen.  The only people who want this info are ardent die hard mmorpg followers, and mostly only those who suspect it's a dodgy game even care.  We are probably talking about a very small amount of people here.  Even those people will totally disregard it when the game releases and will base their purchasing decision on what the actual game is like.  This what I am planning on doing, I will wait for it to release and read what people write about it. 

There is absolutely no reason for me to care about whether these details you want to see are available because they are likely to be the same as every other mmorpg and can look when it comes to paying time if it ever gets that far.  If it wasn't for this thread I wouldn't even check if they were available, that is how unimportant this is.  It's game, it will not be expensive.  

The only question this leaves is whether or not producing it makes them appear bogus but thats not really relevent anyway as I will be researching real opinions before I buy it, and I don't think it does make them appear them dodgy as this is a indi company and I wouldn't expect them to be as customer focused as bigger publishers.  I am expecting customer service to be non existant or terrible when it launches and this won't discourage me either.  

What the worst case scenario? I have to call my cc company and tell them to take the payment back thereby wasting a whole 5 mins of my time, I will not be outraged by this obviously.

Originally posted by hidden1

Originally posted by xzyax

Originally posted by Joliust

They aren't obligated to you because you aren't a customer until you purchase the game. However, if they lose sales over it its their loss and a bad move but it's their choice. When it comes to how taxes will be charged as a consumer it's your responsibility to know tax laws. Now if EU's/greece's tax laws are similar to the Unitd states 1. you pay sales tax at the point of purchase. 2. you don't pay sales tax on intangibles goods, so if you download the game there is no sales tax.

Someone from the EU would be better than I at explaining the VAT.  It's not the same as a sales tax. 

 

For most MMOs those from NA haven't had to worry about the VAT because there has been a NA publisher and/or billing agent involved.  So, those in the NA were basically isolated from any VAT transactions.

 

Since those of us in NA will be having to download, purchase, and suscribe without any NA publisher and/or billing agent involved; that won't necessarily be the case for us this time. 

I am unsure how it will work with Aventurine, as I've never used a service from the EU without going through some sort of NA intermediate company that took care of that for me.

 

Does our CC company take care of the VAT if we are indeed subject to it?

Are we supposed to mail in our VAT to the appropriate Greece VAT collection agency?

 

I really have no idea.  I just know that for other services that I've used that involve a company originating in the EU... they go through quite a bit of work to make sure it all works according to the EU's VAT laws.  A company from the EU can get into quite a bit of trouble if they don't collect and pay the appropriate amount for each person.

 

i want to play this bad, but ... i would like to purchase and subscribe through a NA distributer/publisher... if i subscibe through greece, and get my pc and account hacked, i can't really do anything about it.. but at least through an NA publisher it can get reported and something could be done, at least to protect your account i would think... but hell i'll probably subscribe or not in the first few hours or play i'm sure
 

Yeah, there are a LOT of unknowns for those of us in the NA.

That is probably the main disconnect with this "method" that Aventurine is attempting for DarkFall.  I know of zero other products that have been offered this way.  So, I have no experience to draw upon to find out how this will work when dealing directly with an EU company.

Logically you would think that the company itself would recognize that thier future customers would be confused as to how this will work.  So, you would think the company in question would provide information explaining how it will work, as that is what companies usually do... try and attract customers.

Well, that's where the logic leaves the stadium.  Not only are we given zero information... we are even rebuffed for asking about receiving information. 

One would think that by thier actions that Aventurine were trying to attract as few customers as possible... especially customers from the NA.  I guess we'll see how well this "strategy" of their works in 17 more days. 

Originally posted by Blodpls

Originally posted by Lidane

Originally posted by Blodpls It's speculation because for damn near every other MMO that's released in the last several years, by now (2+ weeks to release) people generally have a lot more information to go on.

I don't consider it spoon feeding. I consider it a case of a reputable business wanting to give potential customers as much information as possible about their product before it's released. That's what most businesses do when they have a product they want to sell people, and when they're proud of the work they've done.

For a pay-to-play MMO in particular, this is a big deal. People should know 2+ weeks before launch what the system specs are. They should know about pricing, monthly fees, taxes, billing, and where and how to purchase the game at all. Expecting people to go in blindly just because they've been waiting for Darkfall for all these years is stupid. If Aventurine is seriously wanting to release this game, they need to level with their potential customers, particularly because the purported release date is 17 days away.

I mean, come on-- there's not even any info on where  to buy the game when it comes out, much less anything more substantive, like cost, monthly fees, billing, and system specs. The whole situation reeks of a dodgy company trying to make a fast buck off of folks who genuinely want to play the game they believe in so strongly, and that's wrong. Aventurine needs to stop dancing around the questions that people are asking and finally put up or shut up. Enough is enough, IMO, especially so close to release.

We'll know in 17 days, but right now it just doesn't pass the smell test.

 

 

It may be a big deal to you but for most people it isn't.  If this game turns out to be good then most people who will eventually buy it haven't even heard of Darkfall at this current time or it has not registered on their radar screen.  The only people who want this info are ardent die hard mmorpg followers, and mostly only those who suspect it's a dodgy game even care.  We are probably talking about a very small amount of people here.  Even those people will totally disregard it when the game releases and will base their purchasing decision on what the actual game is like.  This what I am planning on doing, I will wait for it to release and read what people write about it. 

There is absolutely no reason for me to care about whether these details you want to see are available because they are likely to be the same as every other mmorpg and can look when it comes to paying time if it ever gets that far.  If it wasn't for this thread I wouldn't even check if they were available, that is how unimportant this is.  It's game, it will not be expensive.  

The only question this leaves is whether or not producing it makes them appear bogus but thats not really relevent anyway as I will be researching real opinions before I buy it, and I don't think it does make them appear them dodgy as this is a indi company and I wouldn't expect them to be as customer focused as bigger publishers.  I am expecting customer service to be non existant or terrible when it launches and this won't discourage me either.  

What the worst case scenario? I have to call my cc company and tell them to take the payment back thereby wasting a whole 5 mins of my time, I will not be outraged by this obviously.

WoW!  What CC company do you have?  You can get through to a live person, get bumped up to the supervisor, and explain the situation in 5 minutes?   I want your Bank!

Every time that I've had to call for that sort of thing... it was closer to 45 minutes before I even got a live person.  Then another 30 minutes to get the supervisor.  Then another 30 minutes explaining the situation.  Figure in some more time explaining what a MMO is...

Anyway by the time it's all said and done... it's usually money ahead for me to just eat it. 

Originally posted by xzyax 

That is probably the main disconnect with this "method" that Aventurine is attempting for DarkFall.  I know of zero other products that have been offered this way.  So, I have no experience to draw upon to find out how this will work when dealing directly with an EU company.

Logically you would think that the company itself would recognize that thier future customers would be confused as to how this will work.  So, you would think the company in question would provide information explaining how it will work, as that is what companies usually do... try and attract customers.

Have you never been on holiday and bought something on your credit or bank card abroad?  It's exactly the same as doing it in America.  What is there to explain?  You fill in your details and if you have a problem you talk to the company or in worse case scenario your bank.  Effectively there is no difference.  It's no different than buying something from another city in your own country. 

The only thing that will notice is that you are charged in local currency, what the exchange rate is will be between you and your bank, got nothing to do with the company doing the charging.