Originally posted by rozenblade1

Originally posted by Kilmar

Yes, but its not so important. A game had to come and destroy the genre, it was wow. Its sad, but there is nothing to do about it yet. I hope, there will be a company in the future making a MMO for smart adults again. Until then, play older MMOs =)

 

How can you even say that.  Just because you play older MMO's doesn't mean that everyone wants to.  WoW brought new players to MMO's in general.  Without WoW, a lot of people who currently play MMO's might not even play them at all.  Because WoW has brought the genre to a new spectrum of players, maybe more people will check out the older MMO's. 

I have never played WoW, and probably never will, not for any negative reason, but because it doesn't attract me like other MMO's have.  That being said, if it weren't for WoW, the MMO's I play, probably wouldn't exist.  And who's to say that I won't try an older MMO?  I love the genre and I'd like to experience as much of it as I could.

There's a lot to be said for this.

I mean, mmo's obviously existed before WoW. But yet none of them garnered the type of playerbase that WoW has.

My sense is that it was a very specific group of players who enjoyed them and that was it. Along comes something that is reasonably polished and easier for players to understand/get into, and suddenly the scene explodes.

Remember, EQ II was released about the same time as WoW and was not able to gain and hold the same playerbase.

And EQ II had the original EQ name going for it similar to the Blizzard name in popularity perhaps?

Yet WoW was the clear winner as far as sales.

 edit: I'll add, it's almost like saying Rock and Roll ruined music.

For casuals who love themeparks not.

But maybe in a sense its couse some decline in original mmo´s last few years many chance there mmo's try to be more like WoW  or new ones just copy WoW.

But new year seem to some surprises, and i dont mean beat wow but new mmorpgs dare to be different then WoW.

Darkfall - Fallen earth - earthrise to name a few:) all sandbox.

Originally posted by Sovrath

Originally posted by rozenblade1

Originally posted by Kilmar

Yes, but its not so important. A game had to come and destroy the genre, it was wow. Its sad, but there is nothing to do about it yet. I hope, there will be a company in the future making a MMO for smart adults again. Until then, play older MMOs =)

 

How can you even say that.  Just because you play older MMO's doesn't mean that everyone wants to.  WoW brought new players to MMO's in general.  Without WoW, a lot of people who currently play MMO's might not even play them at all.  Because WoW has brought the genre to a new spectrum of players, maybe more people will check out the older MMO's. 

I have never played WoW, and probably never will, not for any negative reason, but because it doesn't attract me like other MMO's have.  That being said, if it weren't for WoW, the MMO's I play, probably wouldn't exist.  And who's to say that I won't try an older MMO?  I love the genre and I'd like to experience as much of it as I could.

 

There's a lot to be said for this.

I mean, mmo's obviously existed before WoW. But yet none of them garnered the type of playerbase that WoW has.

My sense is that it was a very specific group of players who enjoyed them and that was it. Along comes something that is reasonably polished and easier for players to understand/get into, and suddenly the scene explodes.

Remember, EQ II was released about the same time as WoW and was not able to gain and hold the same playerbase.

And EQ II had the original EQ name going for it similar to the Blizzard name in popularity perhaps?

Yet WoW was the clear winner as far as sales.

 edit: I'll add, it's almost like saying Rock and Roll ruined music.

Really good points.

Originally posted by Sovrath

EQ II had the original EQ name going for it similar to the Blizzard name in popularity perhaps?

EQ never had millions of fans -- EverQuest at its highest popularity was 500,000

unlike the Blizzard franchise of Diablo / Warcraft / Starcraft

Diablo by itself sold 2.5 million copies back in 2001

Diablo2 had sold 4 million copies by aug 2001

WoW didn't ruin MMORPGs; the people (not all) who play WoW ruined MMORPGs.

WoW exposed a market that had been previously untapped, and grasped it firmly. And even though I get the feeling that many WoW players would like to play a better game, there really haven't been better MMOs released since WoW, largely because they don't take the time to learn from WoW.

I'm the type of person who enjoys fantasy. I like building characters from scratch, making them unique (not necessary the most powerful), and making my mark. I like building things in the actual game world for other people to see. I think Star Wars Galaxies spoiled me terribly in this regard.

I think I would rather play pen and paper D&D then most of the current MMOs. At least then I could be creative. That's what I'm missing from all the MMO's currently available.

 I think this is compareable to the question "Did  fast food ruin America?", it did in a way, but is it still good? Some people think so, some people dont. Just like WoW imo :P

Originally posted by Daedalus732

WoW didn't ruin MMORPGs; the people (not all) who play WoW ruined MMORPGs.

WoW exposed a market that had been previously untapped, and grasped it firmly. And even though I get the feeling that many WoW players would like to play a better game, there really haven't been better MMOs released since WoW, largely because they don't take the time to learn from WoW.

I'm the type of person who enjoys fantasy. I like building characters from scratch, making them unique (not necessary the most powerful), and making my mark. I like building things in the actual game world for other people to see. I think Star Wars Galaxies spoiled me terribly in this regard.

I think I would rather play pen and paper D&D then most of the current MMOs. At least then I could be creative. That's what I'm missing from all the MMO's currently available.

Blaming the players is ... well I'll be nice ... simply wrong.  You can make an argument that players (the market) drove certain decisions, but the onus is on the studios to deliver on quality products.  Players didn't force Funcom to release a completely unfinished product, or EA to punt on RvR.  Nor did players force Brad McLosser to bail on Vanguard.

MMORPGs aren't ruined. The entire premise is flawed.

"Vets" and their over-pretentious nature are ruining mmo's and causing cancer through mmorpg.com posts. 

Originally posted by Nadia

Originally posted by Sovrath

EQ II had the original EQ name going for it similar to the Blizzard name in popularity perhaps?

EQ never had millions of fans -- EverQuest at its highest popularity was 500,000

 

unlike the Blizzard franchise of Diablo / Warcraft / Starcraft

 

Diablo by itself sold 2.5 million copies back in 2001

Diablo2 had sold 4 million copies by aug 2001

The name on itself may help sales initially, but it will not keep people subscribed for 4 years. You cant ignore the fact that after 4 years the game keeps increasing its playerbase means the game is doing something right. right?

Originally posted by zymurgeist

MMORPGs aren't ruined. The entire premise is flawed.

I will have to agree to this.

OP, when you say ruined, do you mean the genre does not exist anymore? It certainly does, and it has grown considerably. If anything, WoW boosted MMORPG genre to record heights. It certainly changed the focus of MMORPG, from old style "LFG for 5 hours" to new style "log in and start pwning".

You probably could say WoW ruined the old style, but not the genre overall. The new system WoW introduced are way better then old ones.

Voted no. WoW didn't ruin anything, it made the whole genre more mainstream and by that bringing alot more money into the genre and raising the quality of the mmo games.

There is a bad side to it though. When games take a shitload of money to make, developers, or more import investors don't want to take many chances and by that we get carboncopy's of various mmo's with WoW being the top game to copy. Not WoWs' fault though. Can't blame Halo for shitty shooters now can we? Picked Halo cause it's one of the most popular fps out there even though I personally think the entire franchise is a boring yawnfest.

Originally posted by MrVicchio

IT did, people are more worried about "my gear" then any other thing in game.  You can see the poison in WAR out in Open RvR.  Instead of standing and fighting the enemy, they run to undefended keeps for the gear rolls.  It's pathetic.

I have to agree with this. I don't know if WoW had the me-me-me mentality at its start, but it certainly does now. It's the worst effect.

No, it definetely did not ruin the MMORPG's.

It did however change the genre radically. It has brought in lots of new players.

Some have not liked the way WoW has shaped todays mmorpg's but it has definetely not ruined the mmorpg's.

Originally posted by Bruticus_XI

Originally posted by MrVicchio

IT did, people are more worried about "my gear" then any other thing in game.  You can see the poison in WAR out in Open RvR.  Instead of standing and fighting the enemy, they run to undefended keeps for the gear rolls.  It's pathetic.

I have to agree with this. I don't know if WoW had the me-me-me mentality at its start, but it certainly does now. It's the worst effect.

Nothing like EQ where people would camp spawns only allowing certain people join their groups so that their friends would get certain drops.  Oh no WoW started the me me me mentality of games.  

Originally posted by MrVicchio

IT did, people are more worried about "my gear" then any other thing in game.  You can see the poison in WAR out in Open RvR.  Instead of standing and fighting the enemy, they run to undefended keeps for the gear rolls.  It's pathetic.

There was gear greed long before WoW was even a thought in the market.  Just look at Everquest as a prime example.  You had entire guilds fighting it out in some of the nastiest ways possible just to get some boss mob or piece of loot.  People have been self centered for a very long time in mmos.

Don't blame the flawed game design of warhammer on players from another game.  Warhammer simply wasn't well thought out or tested in regards to how people will play it. 

Originally posted by Daffid011

Originally posted by MrVicchio

IT did, people are more worried about "my gear" then any other thing in game.  You can see the poison in WAR out in Open RvR.  Instead of standing and fighting the enemy, they run to undefended keeps for the gear rolls.  It's pathetic.

 

There was gear greed long before WoW was even a thought in the market.  Just look at Everquest as a prime example.  You had entire guilds fighting it out in some of the nastiest ways possible just to get some boss mob or piece of loot.  People have been self centered for a very long time in mmos.

Don't blame the flawed game design of warhammer on players from another game.  Warhammer simply wasn't well thought out or tested in regards to how people will play it. 

Lol that's bad. I think Mythic thought people can have realm pride, like giving away stuff you can't use to lower leveled players in your realm instead of selling them and overpricing at the AH, just so you can help your "teammates". Mythic thought people wanted to win, but turns out they don't give a shit about that anymore. They want the rewards without the effort. Even though gear doesn't even make that much of a difference in WAR (good thing). I guess carrots on a stick is the only way to get people to fight nowadays.

It's a hard one to address really.

I'd say for a start, WoW in itself has not damaged the mmorpg market. If anything, it's made more people aware of the market, and attracted more attention to a genre that started with very little, if any, mainstream interest.

However, this is the factor that may have done some damage, in the views of the long term mmorpg players. The interest generated by WoW has led to many developers trying to emulate that success using the same formula, and changing the mmorpg market from it's origins as a community driven and co-operative play style, into a solo friendly easy going game. It's similar in a way to the effect diablo style games have had on RPG games. You used to spend ages preparing a character, building stats, chosing skills, finding loot etc, but Diablo came along and created a huge market by stripping everything down to basics. WoW has done something similar, only the effect has been so great that it's taking attention away from the other mmorpg games that offer something different, leading to everyone copying WoW instead of inovating, for the most part.

This is my take on it anyway. To sum up, WoW in itself has done no bad, but the reactions of other developers to it's success has.

I Love WoW ! Best ever game.

WoW just ruined the evolution of mmorpgs. It set back the evolution three steps but in terms of peoples interests it took it 10 step forward.

All I wonder now is what is gonna happen with theese huge new masses of people who are new to games when they get tired of WoW? Are they gonna search for something equally simple minded or try to move on to something more advanced?

I don't think it ruined MMORPGs as a whole. I like the fact that it opened the doors to the masses and made MMORPGs acceptable by the mainstream. A drawback of that of course is people coming into the genre from other game genres and the like.

I seem to see a lot of people that, to me at least, would be better suited in an FPS or RTS game. Of course that is not the majority.

One thing I DO think WoW ruined was the tight-knit guild.

My guild back in the original EQ was only around 20-25 people and we were tight. We did everything as a guild every night we were logged on. People didn't jump from one guild to the next. In WoW I see that happen  ALL the time. It seems to me that this game has fostered a "What can this guild do for me" attitude and it sucks.

Which leads me back to the people that might be better suited in a different genre.

I see this alot... and NO wow didnt ruin  mmo's   they made their own pathway and perfected it... ease of gameplay, etc ...etc..  if anything, other companies are trying to emulate them...  personally they need to go back to the old style of mmo's and add some thinking content..      if they would come out with a game similar to Asherons call with todays engines??  i would be a life time subscriber..   heck if AC was free to play i would be there... i just cant pay for multigames  (wife gets ticked)  lol      and get rid of the macro-dorks

Durahell is absolutely correct.  Several people that would have never played an mmorpg have entered our world thanks to Wow, however as far as evolution of mmorpgs Wow is not helping, but nor is it hurting.  Its like a filler game in between ultima and whatever next thing there is to come (maybe DF maybe MO maybe something we've never even heard of)

Anyone that believes Wow to be the greatest mmo of all time should just shoot themselves in the head.  Don't get me wrong its kinda fun, but in no way is it the greatest.  Especially as far as the community interacting with the game. (not that the community is a bunch of retards, just that like in a game like DF the community will actually affect the world vs Wow community doesnt do shit)

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Originally posted by DuraheLL
WoW just ruined the evolution of mmorpgs. It set back the evolution three steps but in terms of peoples interests it took it 10 step forward.
All I wonder now is what is gonna happen with theese huge new masses of people who are new to games when they get tired of WoW? Are they gonna search for something equally simple minded or try to move on to something more advanced?

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I agree with you; WoW set the genre back a great deal. More than that, as you say, it has introduced many people to the genre that would never have come otherwise. And normally, I would consider this to be a good thing, especially in the numbers and at the rate that Blizzard managed this.

However, their wild success has caused everyone else to copy them in many ways and now we have a ton of games that are simplistic and don't really feel like *worlds* in their own right, which as far as I am concerned, was the whole point of MMOs in the first place. It makes me worried. That's why I want Darkfall to succeed, and maybe Ryzom to do a little better, even if they might not be my cup of tea ultimately. If they do make money, there is the chance larger developers will think of innovation as a way to get players. Only time will tell.

As a side note, I really like your SOE lies link. More people should be made aware of all of those. Not that I cared particularly for SWG, which is where most of the anger seems to come from, but SOE lies to their players, and they only care about money. They anger of players and their refusal to give them money is the only thing that can ever stop them. So thank you.

Also, I love the vampire quote. What's it from?

Originally posted by DuraheLL

WoW just ruined the evolution of mmorpgs. It set back the evolution three steps but in terms of peoples interests it took it 10 step forward.

All I wonder now is what is gonna happen with theese huge new masses of people who are new to games when they get tired of WoW? Are they gonna search for something equally simple minded or try to move on to something more advanced?

WoW players seem to be pretty content with where they've been for the past 4 years.  That's both a reflection of Blizzard's continued success, and the inability of other studios, like EA, to create anything incrementally better.