Eq1 was the first MMO I ever played and it was great for its time.  However I would have to say that all and all the newer generation of MMOs are better.  Several of the innovations were pretty smart (like making the game revolve more around doing quests than camping mobs so that players would explore the whole zone and such) but I think there are several aspects of Eq1 that could easily be used in modern MMOs without hurting the newb friendlyness or adding grind.  These are some ideas from Eq1 that seem to be neglected in modern MMOS.

Social Interaction:  Sure modern MMOs have social interaction but Eq1 had plenty of mechanics that promoted it much more than modern titles.  For instance, in Eq1 many classes had something they could do that'd help other people out while costing them pretty much nothing but a little time.  Magicians could summon arrows, throwing items, and even some handy armor.  Shamans/Druids/Rangers/BeastMasters could all give people a powerful runbuff called spirit of wolf.  Wizards/Druids could teleport, Necros could summon your corpse or give you its location, Clerics could rez you, etc.  Personally I think this helped promote a friendlier community because it gave a lot of classes some way they could just be nice to others without costing them much more than some mana or a little time.

Downtimes:  The downtime system in Eq1 was in some way better than modern titles.  Now Eq1 definitely went overboard with there downtimes but they did provide a small break every now and then to let people actually chat with each other.  In modern MMOs there's no time to talk in a group since you're always fighting.  Of coarse no one would want to be forced to take a 30min break in the middle of there action but wouldn't it make more since in these modern MMOs that instead of resting for 15seconds every 2 fights to eat a muffin you just rested for 5 minutes every 30-45minutes.  Not only would it let a group or raid chat a little but it'd help keep people from burning out.  (Actually when I was a raid leader in EQ2 we ended up forcing 10min breaks on ourselves every 2 hours to help keep us from burning out).

Interesting Travel:  Ok, maybe this is a bit of a stretch since Eq1 travel was essentially running most of the time.  But they did some things that made it interesting.  They made you sometimes run through places that were much higher level than you, which actually gave the world a sense of danger to it.  Also, even though this mechanic was poorly exicuted, there was darkness at night.  In other words if you were a lvl 5 human and it got dark you wouldn't see very far (of coarse people just turned up there gamma to get around this but it was still a fun idea).  Also I know a world without maps was really a bit much for new players but couldn't modern MMOs at least make it possible to get lost?  I mean in a city I'm all for a map and pointer telling me where I am but when every zone comes with map and pointer it takes away from that feeling of danger Eq1 gave us when we traveled to a new zone for the first time.  I know getting lost could be extremely lame but one of the funnest times I had in Eq1 was just falling off a boat and swimming from island to island exploring this dangereous high level zone.

/agree

I actually agree with the travel. My biggest problem with easy travel is that it makes the world smaller. The longer travel takes, the bigger the world felt. A big sinner on this account is WoW.

Originally posted by A_N_T_I

I actually agree with the travel. My biggest problem with easy travel is that it makes the world smaller. The longer travel takes, the bigger the world felt. A big sinner on this account is WoW.

 

The faster travel times are actually attractive to a casual audience. They just want to log in, get instant gratification, and leave in about 15min or less.

If a walk from one zone to another takes just that long, and no reward is gained for it, the time spent is considered a waste. Especially when a mistake was made and they ended up in the wrong area.

I agree with most of what you posted. I actually preferred EQ1 to Wow. Also the faction system was better (not perfect) in EQ1. If you started out evil there were some ways to gain faction with the good races. I'm not sure if you could do it the other way around though.

Unfortunately, I don't think the new MMO crowd is willing to put up with anything that takes time away from their non-stop questing.  Actually, I was probably the same way back when I played DAOC.  Everything was about racing up the ladder in the quickest, most risk-free way possible.  I would have killed for an "easy" MMO at that time.  Problem is, when you get that easy game, things get boring.  No down time, no death penalties, fast travel, free gear, no real spec options, simplistic combat, in-game GPS, no need for money, no risk, no challenge, no depth...no point in playing past the first free month.

Social Interraction:  I never played EQ, but it sounds like you're talking about class "utility".  I agree.  Current MMOs are SEVERELY lacking when it comes to useful, non-combat abilities.  Apparently, if it doesn't relate to combat, then it's just fluff...

Downtime:  I guess it really depends on the system.  The original SWG, IMO, had a great system for this.

Travel:  I'm always hammering on this one.  I'm sure it's a tough balance between easy travel and pain-in-the-ass travel.  However, I do think that travel should be significant.  Like some one else mentioned, with easy travel the game world just feels small and shallow.

Originally posted by Tatum

Unfortunately, I don't think the new MMO crowd is willing to put up with anything that takes time away from their non-stop questing.  Actually, I was probably the same way back when I played DAOC.  Everything was about racing up the ladder in the quickest, most risk-free way possible.  I would have killed for an "easy" MMO at that time.  Problem is, when you get that easy game, things get boring.  No down time, no death penalties, fast travel, free gear, no real spec options, simplistic combat, in-game GPS, no need for money, no risk, no challenge, no depth...no point in playing past the first free month.

Social Interraction:  I never played EQ, but it sounds like you're talking about class "utility".  I agree.  Current MMOs are SEVERELY lacking when it comes to useful, non-combat abilities.  Apparently, if it doesn't relate to combat, then it's just fluff...

Downtime:  I guess it really depends on the system.  The original SWG, IMO, had a great system for this.

Travel:  I'm always hammering on this one.  I'm sure it's a tough balance between easy travel and pain-in-the-ass travel.  However, I do think that travel should be significant.  Like some one else mentioned, with easy travel the game world just feels small and shallow.

I think a good traveling system would be WoW minus gryphon masters and flying mounts.

Originally posted by Capn23

Originally posted by Tatum

Unfortunately, I don't think the new MMO crowd is willing to put up with anything that takes time away from their non-stop questing.  Actually, I was probably the same way back when I played DAOC.  Everything was about racing up the ladder in the quickest, most risk-free way possible.  I would have killed for an "easy" MMO at that time.  Problem is, when you get that easy game, things get boring.  No down time, no death penalties, fast travel, free gear, no real spec options, simplistic combat, in-game GPS, no need for money, no risk, no challenge, no depth...no point in playing past the first free month.

Social Interraction:  I never played EQ, but it sounds like you're talking about class "utility".  I agree.  Current MMOs are SEVERELY lacking when it comes to useful, non-combat abilities.  Apparently, if it doesn't relate to combat, then it's just fluff...

Downtime:  I guess it really depends on the system.  The original SWG, IMO, had a great system for this.

Travel:  I'm always hammering on this one.  I'm sure it's a tough balance between easy travel and pain-in-the-ass travel.  However, I do think that travel should be significant.  Like some one else mentioned, with easy travel the game world just feels small and shallow.

 

I think a good traveling system would be WoW minus gryphon masters and flying mounts.

What would be really intressting and fun in a mmorpg would not be good for the game company when it comes to subscribers, since you have to put it on idiot level so that people dont get frustated and angry that they cant manage it. That is one of the reasons that wow has 11milion subs.

A lot of the bad aspects of EQ1 had good side-effects.

Long journeys do make the world feel bigger. Designing the game around hubs would help with this. There's a long journey but once you're there you can bind and stay there for a long while. That way the long journeys are still long but you don't spend a large percentage of your play time travelling. Unless you liked picking long journey type quests.

Downtime was annoying but it did lead to more sociability which was good. If i was designing a game I'd try and have something where every now and then you had to go to a hub and sit in an inn to heal up fully or something like that. Maybe even make it the death penalty.

Making lively social hubs can be annoying too, both in terms of lag and some of the OOC chat  -- but they also make the world feel more alive. It's like auction houses, they are obviously better in many practical ways but East Commonlands tunnel was an *experience* lol.

Having no maps made exploring more fun but could be annoying as well. My compromise there would be maps inside cities but not outside. I'd also try and design the outdoor zones to have lots of landmarks and make the places ppl would want to go have very simple directions when asked e.g "where's orc camp?", "follow road to 2nd bridge then NE to hill".

I also think the EQ design of having zones that mostly fitted one level range but which had higher level camps and wandering mobs was a good idea. It was annoying sometimes when you'd get killed suddenly ($%(*&^% griffons) but it made the world seem more real.

Originally posted by tupodawg999

A lot of the bad aspects of EQ1 had good side-effects.

Long journeys do make the world feel bigger. Designing the game around hubs would help with this. There's a long journey but once you're there you can bind and stay there for a long while. That way the long journeys are still long but you don't spend a large percentage of your play time travelling. Unless you liked picking long journey type quests.

Downtime was annoying but it did lead to more sociability which was good. If i was designing a game I'd try and have something where every now and then you had to go to a hub and sit in an inn to heal up fully or something like that. Maybe even make it the death penalty.

Making lively social hubs can be annoying too, both in terms of lag and some of the OOC chat  -- but they also make the world feel more alive. It's like auction houses, they are obviously better in many practical ways but East Commonlands tunnel was an *experience* lol.

Having no maps made exploring more fun but could be annoying as well. My compromise there would be maps inside cities but not outside. I'd also try and design the outdoor zones to have lots of landmarks and make the places ppl would want to go have very simple directions when asked e.g "where's orc camp?", "follow road to 2nd bridge then NE to hill".

I also think the EQ design of having zones that mostly fitted one level range but which had higher level camps and wandering mobs was a good idea. It was annoying sometimes when you'd get killed suddenly ($%(*&^% griffons) but it made the world seem more real.

 

That's a good idea about tying downtime to inns and death to downtime.  Whenever someone dies they're usually more in a mood to chat so that they can vent there frustration, and if people are talking more about how they die they'll inevitably start talking about game strategies to avoid death and players get more of there information on how to play the game actually in game rather than from guides on the web.  You probably wouldn't want dieing to be the only reason someone goes to an inn but it'd be a great part of a mix.

A hub based system seems like a good idea too but I think that still presents the old problem with travel, namely its still boaring when you do have to do it.  For instance EVE online had a sort of hub travel system, you could start doing stuff right by the station you last logged off at but if you wanted to travel to the far side of the galaxy it'd take awhile.  Unfortunitly when you did travel it was mainly just turning on auto pilot and wating for several minutes (similar to WoWs griffens but without a speed boost).  The act of traveling was still lame, it was just less required.

I think a new MMO with good travel would have a hub system but the travel itself would have to somehow be engaging.  The reason Eq1's travel was more engaging than most modern MMOs is because the zones were dangerous and death was something you really wanted to avoid.  It's not like running through a Wow zone where you just hit auto run and you never have to go through a zone you can't train.  A new MMO could not only make travel more engaging by making zones more dangerous but they could through in some reward for exploration at least.  For instance one of the reasons I like travel in Eq1 at first was because I had the naive notion that'd I'd actually discover something useful, like somebody may have killed a high level mob and left something valuable on its corpse by accident.  A new MMO could perhaps just through some useful items in odd places that travels could pick up and sell, so even if you can't hunt the mobs of that zone you might get some semi rare harvested items simply by running through it.

Originally posted by Rethak

Originally posted by tupodawg999

A lot of the bad aspects of EQ1 had good side-effects.

Long journeys do make the world feel bigger. Designing the game around hubs would help with this. There's a long journey but once you're there you can bind and stay there for a long while. That way the long journeys are still long but you don't spend a large percentage of your play time travelling. Unless you liked picking long journey type quests.

Downtime was annoying but it did lead to more sociability which was good. If i was designing a game I'd try and have something where every now and then you had to go to a hub and sit in an inn to heal up fully or something like that. Maybe even make it the death penalty.

Making lively social hubs can be annoying too, both in terms of lag and some of the OOC chat  -- but they also make the world feel more alive. It's like auction houses, they are obviously better in many practical ways but East Commonlands tunnel was an *experience* lol.

Having no maps made exploring more fun but could be annoying as well. My compromise there would be maps inside cities but not outside. I'd also try and design the outdoor zones to have lots of landmarks and make the places ppl would want to go have very simple directions when asked e.g "where's orc camp?", "follow road to 2nd bridge then NE to hill".

I also think the EQ design of having zones that mostly fitted one level range but which had higher level camps and wandering mobs was a good idea. It was annoying sometimes when you'd get killed suddenly ($%(*&^% griffons) but it made the world seem more real.

 

That's a good idea about tying downtime to inns and death to downtime.  Whenever someone dies they're usually more in a mood to chat so that they can vent there frustration, and if people are talking more about how they die they'll inevitably start talking about game strategies to avoid death and players get more of there information on how to play the game actually in game rather than from guides on the web.  You probably wouldn't want dieing to be the only reason someone goes to an inn but it'd be a great part of a mix.

 

A hub based system seems like a good idea too but I think that still presents the old problem with travel, namely its still boaring when you do have to do it.  For instance EVE online had a sort of hub travel system, you could start doing stuff right by the station you last logged off at but if you wanted to travel to the far side of the galaxy it'd take awhile.  Unfortunitly when you did travel it was mainly just turning on auto pilot and wating for several minutes (similar to WoWs griffens but without a speed boost).  The act of traveling was still lame, it was just less required.

I think a new MMO with good travel would have a hub system but the travel itself would have to somehow be engaging.  The reason Eq1's travel was more engaging than most modern MMOs is because the zones were dangerous and death was something you really wanted to avoid.  It's not like running through a Wow zone where you just hit auto run and you never have to go through a zone you can't train.  A new MMO could not only make travel more engaging by making zones more dangerous but they could through in some reward for exploration at least.  For instance one of the reasons I like travel in Eq1 at first was because I had the naive notion that'd I'd actually discover something useful, like somebody may have killed a high level mob and left something valuable on its corpse by accident.  A new MMO could perhaps just through some useful items in odd places that travels could pick up and sell, so even if you can't hunt the mobs of that zone you might get some semi rare harvested items simply by running through it.

The Hub idea is exacty what I'd like to see.  Pack every thing into and around cities/villages/hubs, then spread these out across the map.

IMO, to make travel interesting you need:

1) Random encounters.  Having specific spawn camps layed out for the players to learn and navigate through is ok, but you really need some dangerous, unexpected events.  Bandit attacks, high level roaming mobs...

2) Significant weather.  Not just superficial weather, but weather that actually hinders the players.

3) Isolation.  Other than those cool, hidden locations, there shouldn't be any friendly stops.  No bind points or healing points or traders or any thing like that.  You should have a real incentive to get to that next hub.

Originally posted by Rethak

Eq1 was the first MMO I ever played and it was great for its time.  However I would have to say that all and all the newer generation of MMOs are better.  Several of the innovations were pretty smart (like making the game revolve more around doing quests than camping mobs so that players would explore the whole zone and such) but I think there are several aspects of Eq1 that could easily be used in modern MMOs without hurting the newb friendlyness or adding grind.  These are some ideas from Eq1 that seem to be neglected in modern MMOS.

Social Interaction:  Sure modern MMOs have social interaction but Eq1 had plenty of mechanics that promoted it much more than modern titles.  For instance, in Eq1 many classes had something they could do that'd help other people out while costing them pretty much nothing but a little time.  Magicians could summon arrows, throwing items, and even some handy armor.  Shamans/Druids/Rangers/BeastMasters could all give people a powerful runbuff called spirit of wolf.  Wizards/Druids could teleport, Necros could summon your corpse or give you its location, Clerics could rez you, etc.  Personally I think this helped promote a friendlier community because it gave a lot of classes some way they could just be nice to others without costing them much more than some mana or a little time.

Downtimes:  The downtime system in Eq1 was in some way better than modern titles.  Now Eq1 definitely went overboard with there downtimes but they did provide a small break every now and then to let people actually chat with each other.  In modern MMOs there's no time to talk in a group since you're always fighting.  Of coarse no one would want to be forced to take a 30min break in the middle of there action but wouldn't it make more since in these modern MMOs that instead of resting for 15seconds every 2 fights to eat a muffin you just rested for 5 minutes every 30-45minutes.  Not only would it let a group or raid chat a little but it'd help keep people from burning out.  (Actually when I was a raid leader in EQ2 we ended up forcing 10min breaks on ourselves every 2 hours to help keep us from burning out).

Interesting Travel:  Ok, maybe this is a bit of a stretch since Eq1 travel was essentially running most of the time.  But they did some things that made it interesting.  They made you sometimes run through places that were much higher level than you, which actually gave the world a sense of danger to it.  Also, even though this mechanic was poorly exicuted, there was darkness at night.  In other words if you were a lvl 5 human and it got dark you wouldn't see very far (of coarse people just turned up there gamma to get around this but it was still a fun idea).  Also I know a world without maps was really a bit much for new players but couldn't modern MMOs at least make it possible to get lost?  I mean in a city I'm all for a map and pointer telling me where I am but when every zone comes with map and pointer it takes away from that feeling of danger Eq1 gave us when we traveled to a new zone for the first time.  I know getting lost could be extremely lame but one of the funnest times I had in Eq1 was just falling off a boat and swimming from island to island exploring this dangereous high level zone.

My theory(actually I think its fact) is that Everquest's CS department was getting bombarded by players who lost their corpse, items, etc.  Summon Corpse, Rez and Teleport were basically GM abilities that were given to players to take some of the heat off Customer Service.  As the game wore on SOE eventually distributed those abilities to all classes.

The closest step Blizzard's made toward letting players get back to the challenge is the Achievement system.  If there were some status to be gained by not riding birds or by meeting quest objectives in a group of the proper level instead of soloing or getting a run-thru, I guarantee alot of players would do it.

Afraid I have to disagree with some aspects of this post.  Although EQ had it's downfalls, I feel that the large successors (namely WoW and EQ2) were a step backwards from what EQ had already done prior.  I would consider WoW and EQ2 -- MMO beginner mode.

Being an old school EQ player, I search earnestly for an MMO that matches EQ and the challenges in what it offered in 1999.  It's now a decade later, and I have still yet to find an MMO that was as memorable or as fun as EQ 'classic'.  To be fair however, I think after the PoP expansion, EQ also began to drift away from made it successful and went downhill wereas the release of EQ2 and WoW finally drove the nail into the coffin.  FFXI was the closest I could find to EQ, but missing some mechanics that wanted to make me stay.

But to add to this post, I feel these are some more of the negelected aspects of EQ.  Many of them are little things that made the game more realistic, sociable and immersive.  With that said, most are related to increasing social aspects that are sorely missing in today's MMOs.   Please keep in mind, I'm thinking 1999-2003 EQ mechanics and more of what was missing in EQ2 (more so than WoW). 

1.) Weather. 

EQ had fog, rain, lightning, and snow.  Instead of advancing forward in the weather department actually having an impact on your character physically and visually, both EQ2 and WoW neglected the use of even the most basic weather.  Weather was frequent in EQ, whereas in EQ2 it's rare -- at best.   Graphic capabilities really could have made an intense experience (think hurricane bearing down on the newbie zone).  Even the old skybox in EQ looks better and felt more real than EQ2 or WoW.  Example:  PoP planes vs new skybox, the old PoP was better.  Or old Twilight Sea vs new skybox residing there.

2.)  Freedom of Character. 

a.) Buffing other players.  You didn't have to be in a group to buff other players.  I could buff anyone I wanted to if I thought worthy to do.  Logically, the stronger helps the weaker.  Somehow, this was lost and became restrictive where being a higher level was actually less help to low level characters.   When EQ 'nerfed' this, I can say it felt restrictive, as if something was lost.  Even more so when it's gone completely.

b.) Related to buffing of characters, the loss of economy and sociability around it. A healthy economy revolved around selling services and buffs from multiple classes.   Who remembers KEI being sold enmass?  Who remembers selling their own services to bankroll spells or equipment?  When buffs are 'group only', it destroys this aspect of the economy and sociability.  Players naturally gravitated where these services were being sold (usually in a centralized location for the newest expansion and interacted with other players). 

b.) Healing other players.   Again, 'locked combat' being restrictive and placing a set or rules when there should be none, unable to help or heal a player in need.  How many times in EQ did someone driveby heal you, saving you from certain death?  Now if someones fighting, i don't stop and check their HP's on the way by to make sure they are 'ok' if i'm traveling.  After all, it doesn't matter because I can't help them.

3.) Trains.

Trains made gameplay quite unique, especially when so called trainbusters arrived.  They should not instantly run back to where they came from, but stay there, camp the corpse for a time (hey it might twitch!), move on, and if someone gets to near -- attack them just like they would elsewere.   If someone was doing it intentionally, the players would sort it out themselves.  Someone would come in and stop the trains while a GM was summomed.   Bring back trains.  It gives a real sense of immersion.  Even from a roleplaying perspective, remember all the trains in CB?  Someone invaded, and the orcs came to defend the entrance before returning to their posts.

4.) World Size

Sigh, instant travel available to all.   This was one of the downfalls of EQ -- the PoK stones.  The bane and  travesty of MMO's.  Not only does it make the world seem small, it takes all the fun out of adventuring and meeting people along the way.  I for one would rather have a groupgate or speed buff and run across country than clicking a bell, or stone, or bird nest to go flying to get there instantly.   The gate and boat system is one of the things EQ did have right, and made the world seem huge.  Gate points were placed strategically throughout norrath except a couple locations and again created a social atmosphere.  Fast Travel WAS accessible from SoW to groupgates, for the right price and right classes.

Even races across pre-expansion Norrath took nearly an hour to do so without speed buffs.

5.) Combat Spamming

a.) How many spells do I have to cast in a row just to keep you alive again?  Certainly a downfall of EQ2.  Good Lord, as a Templar I had to spam heals constantly, reactives, etc etc just to keep a tank alive and hoped they refreshed in time.  I never had any time to speak with other players because I was to busy clicking buttons healing.  And likewise to others with combat arts.  To many combat arts and spells required for each fight makes the game less fun as everyone was focused on when the bar refreshes.  EQ had large slow healing and was fine for tanks, and burst healing to squishy classes.  It allowed for a ton more social aspects during these times too.  I'll trade slower less spammy combat for social interaction anyday.

b.) Argo and Mana Management.  This is CLEARLY missing in the new mmo's.  As a wizard, I should not be pounding 10k damage constantly, maximizing my DPS without pulling agro.  In EQ, you had to learn when enough was enough -- to make sure you didn't die.   It was a fine line between a dead caster, and a wonderful caster.  Mana? Today It's drain that mana bar and spam everything in a set rapid fire way to maximize DPS -- cause all my Mana will come back in a few seconds.  I don't have to manage mana to allow for constant pulls and minimize downtime.  There was times for mana conservation, and there was times for full burn.  Clearly, both are lost skills with instant regen and mana bars.

6.) The Art of Pulling

A lost art, one that Monks and SK's took a heaping amount of pride in.  Good pullers were gold in EQ, and a bad puller would quickly find himself without a group.   These automagically grouped encounters are nonsense.  My group should not know if 1 mob is coming or 20.  I don't care if they are overcon, or undercon and nor should I know.  It was always exciting to accidently pull 5 mobs instead of 1, or 1 that was severely underconed and needing adjustment immediately as your tank was his new punching bag.

7.) "All Classes Should Solo"

Uh, no they shouldn't.  People on EQ understood this, and i'm sure i'll be flamed for such a statement.  Feel free, as I will not change my mind on this.  The solo mentality has killed MMO's for me, and certainly put a few nails into the social coffin.  Even during EQ there WERE solo classes available to those that wanted to solo effiently.  Druid and Necro particullarly.   I remember a TON of OOC convos, in which it was blatantly obvious that if you wanted to solo, go play the classes capable of doing so.  As a trade off, there were also the Holy Trinity of group classes, such as Tank, Cleric, and Enchanter.  Utility (evac) and DPS classes made up the rest. 

Enough of the Tank saying "Well, that Wizard does 5k damage, so I should too!"  If you want to do 5k damage and solo, be the wizard.  If you want to have 5k hps and take hits to keep a group a live, be a tank.  It's that simple.

8.) "Risk vs Reward"

Itemization.  This is a huge issue.  Everyone can get uber_armor_001 with just time invested.   With drop rates so outragiously high for items, anyone can get a peice of armor that should be rare with a ton stat adjustments.  The group that travels down into the pits of hell should get far better items than casual soloer 101 fighting low hit point bats on the surface as a quest reward.  

This should be fixed.  Risk vs Reward needs to make a return.  Sure you can get 'average' items, maybe even a 'decent' item from solo questing and soloing, but leave the above average and higher loot to those willing to take the risk that you do not wish to take.  Which leads to two more things.

a.) Item "attuning"

The worst Idea yet for itemization.  Completely killing what was left of Risk vs Reward.  EQ had trickle down economics in play where normal items were concerned.  If I got an upgrade through the majority of my EQ carreer, I could sell the item away to someone else.  It fostered the economy and those not willing to put the risk still had a way to get better than average items if the price was right.  If an item was saturated in the market place, the price lowered.  If it was rare, the price went up.  Simple supply and demand.

If the game mechanics require you to attune every single item you get because supply would far outweigh demand, then the item drops are far to high.  It should be toned down so that reward and risk make a return to the MMO scene.   This kills trickle down items, and kills the game economy.    Also, if the item is so good for the risk, why does everyone have it?

b.) Death

Another hot topic.  Corpse retrevial is still the best idea for MMO's period.  If you lost your corpse or died where it was not easy to retreive, it fostered the social aspect .  The chances of 'losing' your corpse in EQ was not that real of a threat unless you put yourself into a very risky situation -- namely early Plane of Fear.  Even then, other guilds would come and assist if needed.

Retrieving ones corpse should be a punishment for death (again, Risk vs Reward).  Although dying 50 times trying to retreve it is not fun either.  Going to a 5% loss of exp each subsequent death attempting to get your corpse is would be fine.  Once your items are back, then full exp loss should happen on the next death.  Problem solved.

Even in most dungeons, there WAS an option to use a necro to summon the corpse, so the chances of permaloss were near zero.   Put it back into players hands, or make it double as expensive to have a NPC corpse retrever as it does to find a PC to do so.

Everyone crying about exp and level loss effectively killed the important dynamic of risk vs reward.  Un-ding's happened, and it was a very strong influence NOT to die especially if you just leveled.  Stupidity was often rewarded with an unding.  Besides, you could get back the majority of your experience anyway with a Cleric.  I never saw the problem with this. 

Exp debt or equipment damage means squat to me, it has no sting.  Seeing that exp bar go in reverse, does.  It's a mental thing. 

9.) Visualization of power in spell graphics

At level 1, it should not look like I just nuked a bat with a Pink Floyd lightshow and did 5 damage.  EQ had it right with upgraded spell graphics at certain milestones.  It seperated the boys from the men so to speak, without even so much as a /c.  Higher levels should get progressively flashy spell effects, and lower levels should be weak and showing signs of struggling as they are babies.  I don't know about you, but I wanted orange sparklies, and then blue sparklies.

10.) Persistant, NOT Instance!

I can't say this enough.  I'm sick of the instances.  Not everyone needs access to Super King Frog at the bottom of a dungeon everyday.  Nor do i want to be locked out of dungeons, or get into the mode of doing the daily double just running the same dungeons over and over again.  Open persistant large dungeons with great items draws players.    Instances inherently kill immersion and social aspects.    Leave the instances with average item or decent items to the soloer casual folk.  If you build it, they will come so to speak.

How many groups have you turned down lately because you were locked out?  Instances are ultimately anti-group.

11.) Different ranks of the same spells/combat arts

God I hate this idea.  Whoever thought of this idea should be shot.  You either have the spell or you don't, and it should scale over some levels up as it did in EQ, not have completely seperate item tables.    There's no reason a lesser rank spell 15 levels away should be less powerful than the highest ranked spell of the same type 15 levels earlier.  This is rediculous.  If the spell is rare and requires a ton of cash or raid, fine -- leave it that way as a badge of honor.  But leave the ranks out of it.  Even EQ started doing this in the later expansions.

12.) Downtime

Downtime can be balanced.  Mana regen and HP rates should be the same in combat, and outside of combat.  Does it have to be as harsh as EQ was?  No, even EQ fixed the 15 minute per battle downtime with items and spells.  At most from a 0 mana bar to full you had 5 minutes, and didn't even need to mediate anymore.  Proper group balance and skills of mana mangement ment nearly 0 downtime.   In a good group, you could get constant pulls at any level range.  Gear reduced downtime, which reinforced Risk vs Reward.

13.) Quest Grind vs Group Exp

a.) Experience from Questing.   Enough of the quest grind already.  In Kunark (EQ2) this was like pulling teeth, and I actually quit the game because of it.  It should not be easier nor quicker to level to max using only quests.  Sure, it  should be a viable alternative, but it should be at least 600% slower than grouping experience.   Questing should be a viable route to level, but proportional to the risk.  Sorry solo guys.  If you want to get more exp in solo, give up the 'casual' mobs for 'heroic' mobs across the board, and get the full exp a group would by soloing it.

b.) Rewards from solo questing.  In no way should a reward from a solo quest, meet, or exceed group gear, or worse, raid gear.   I saw this in the Kunark expansion and it makes me want to vomit.  I don't care how long a solo quest is, it should not even come close to raided gear.

14.) Lack of Floating

Whats with MMO's and the shying away from using the Z-Axis?  EQ you could go anywhere, on top of giant spires, or fly over the land scape.  It's freedom and should be brought back.    Come on, everyone liked floating off the edge of Kelethin telling the newbies that they too could fly if they stepped over the edge.  Seeing them fall to their deaths for untold damage was classic by itself.

Sorry for the insanely long post, but I could go on and on about what I felt EQ had right, vs what is sorely missing from today's typical MMO.

Originally posted by Gilanthas

Afraid I have to disagree with some aspects of this post.  Although EQ had it's downfalls, I feel that the large successors (namely WoW and EQ2) were a step backwards from what EQ had already done prior.  I would consider WoW and EQ2 -- MMO beginner mode.

EQ was made by a developer in beginner mode.  So much of the game was simply unfinished and implemented without forethought and testing.  It's alot more difficult and time consuming to design a strong newbie experience and quest interface than it is to drop a newbie in the middle of a city and say "Good luck!".

The great game developers like Shigeru Miyamoto gradually up the complexity and challenge and introduce new mechanics incrementally.   Blizzard's always used a similar approach while Verant threw everything at you at once.  It was simply poor design.

Instead of improving the core mechanics and interface they kept releasing expansion after expansion.  The mess they made from the start just kept piling up higher and higher.  Players were already leaving in droves before WoW even came out.

I'd agree with many of the posts here. A lack of utility abilities makes the game feel shallow (I.E., WAR). Anyone who played EQ1 might remember silly spells like levitate, that actually had some hidden benefits for people who figure out how to use them well. Buffs being restricted to groups has ALWAYS bothered me, as it limits part of the joy of being a class with those abilities.

In DAOC, I remember being a low level character and receiving damage add or haste buffs, and suddenly finding myself tearing through the same mobs that previous were difficult. I was always ecstatic and offered gushing thanks to the bestower.

I'll touch on one aspect of EQ I hated above all others. Corpse Runs(CR). Hated them with a bloody passion. I don't know if they're easier now, I stopped playing sometime after Lost Dungeons or some other expansion. They were a lot easier by that point. But in original game EQ, I detested CRs.

I will never ever put in CR. Too much lost time.

There has to be risk...There has to be a penalty for player death but no xp loss or a huge time sink of getting a body back. NO.

That said, there are things about EQ that really need some attention.

Classes (and I don't plan on any) should be interlocking. That was always great about EQ. A warrior on his own was just a guy with a lot of hp and AC and long travel times, long downtime and a huge chat freak. But give him a camp with a healer and his value shot up. Toss in a mezzer and the holy trinity of death to mobs was on the loose.

Some things should be attuneable. They should be bind on pick up. You want them rare. You want those items for those people who really wanted them.

Me personally, I want downtime but maybe only 20% of the EQ downtime. EQ had good points and bad points. I do miss the mana conservation and strategies. No one in WoW has a clue what OOM means. I figure out the EQ players pretty quick. When I start using "tells", "OOM" "train" and EQ player starts having flashbacks. A WoW player never understands.

Half the fun of Castle Crushbone was the damn trains and Dvinn. Take those out and it's boring. And not realistic at all.

"Dvinn to zone!" That's a bloody macro!

Originally posted by Chieftan

Originally posted by Gilanthas

Afraid I have to disagree with some aspects of this post.  Although EQ had it's downfalls, I feel that the large successors (namely WoW and EQ2) were a step backwards from what EQ had already done prior.  I would consider WoW and EQ2 -- MMO beginner mode.

 

EQ was made by a developer in beginner mode.  So much of the game was simply unfinished and implemented without forethought and testing.  It's alot more difficult and time consuming to design a strong newbie experience and quest interface than it is to drop a newbie in the middle of a city and say "Good luck!".

The great game developers like Shigeru Miyamoto gradually up the complexity and challenge and introduce new mechanics incrementally.   Blizzard's always used a similar approach while Verant threw everything at you at once.  It was simply poor design.

Instead of improving the core mechanics and interface they kept releasing expansion after expansion.  The mess they made from the start just kept piling up higher and higher.  Players were already leaving in droves before WoW even came out.

I totally agree with your last paragraph.  Part of the reason so many ppl miss EQ1 is because it has changed so much since they played that they don't want to go back.

I tend to cut the early expansions of EQ1 a little more slack than modern titles though since it was one of the first of it's kind though.  Sure they have no excuse for there techinal issues but when it came out it seems like everything on the PC was lacking a good tutorial.  I mean remember Mist or pretty much any other adventure game ever made?  The bar was just lower back then.  Though granted today I don't want to have to read an encylapdia before I can start having fun and there's no reason a complicated game can't just ease you in to it's complexities.

Though I think one thing that made EQ1 more interesting than WoW though was the fact that when EQ1 was made there wasn't a preconcieved notion of what an MMORPG should be, so when they made the game they didn't have too many preconcieved notions about what had to be included and how things should work.  It seems to me they may have been just trying to make more of a "fantasy sim" rather than what we think of today as an MMORPG.  Thus they didn't worry about raids or desiging a strategy of how a mob would be killed or if travel is balanced for this newb zone and this other one, they just wanted to make an interesting virtual world.

I think most modern MMORPGs suffer because they get stuck in this preconcieved idea of what an MMORPG should look like.  Instead of going completly back to the drawing board they go back to a drawing of WoW (and b4 WoW was out, EQ1) and just try tweaking it in ways that marketing show could turn a profit.  I mean just look at combat, except for AoC they all use a similar system of preset skills that do x to your oppenet for cost y.  Sure they can vary a bit with this approach, make it so different classes have different types of cost pools (like a WoW warriors rage pool as opposed to a mana pool), or make you do some combination of buttons to activate a skill (ala AoC), but couldn't they figure out something else?  I mean this approach makes all the classes very similar, melee are just casters with higher armor and no range on there spells.

Originally posted by Rethak

Though I think one thing that made EQ1 more interesting than WoW though was the fact that when EQ1 was made there wasn't a preconcieved notion of what an MMORPG should be, so when they made the game they didn't have too many preconcieved notions about what had to be included and how things should work.  It seems to me they may have been just trying to make more of a "fantasy sim" rather than what we think of today as an MMORPG.  Thus they didn't worry about raids or desiging a strategy of how a mob would be killed or if travel is balanced for this newb zone and this other one, they just wanted to make an interesting virtual world.

Yeah thats what I meant when I said they should have tweaked the base mechanics of the game instead of creating a snowball effect by adding more expansions with the same flaws.  There were alot of lessons they could have learned in beta and they could have adjusted the game accordingly from the start but didn't.  They left the door wide open for a quality developer to come in and make a better game from the ground up.  Even EQ2 had to have its class and tradeskill systems overhauled early on because the original designs were so far off the mark.

@Gilanthas Excellent post, sir! I was thinking about how to best distill my opinions about why I liked original EQ but am turned off by most 'modern' games, but that pretty much does it.  Yea, EQ was severely lacking in polish, but it had something even better, character.