Good old table top looks mighty fun to me ATM.....

Well said OP!

Originally posted by Abrahmm

The whole point of what we want is NOT to be the hero, just to be an average joe.

That doesn't make a damn bit of sense. If you just want to be an average Joe, then why the hell would you spend $50 on a game box and pay $15 a month in subscription fees? That's stupid. Just go outside and live a normal life.

These games are about an escape from the normal. They're entertainment, and a way to unwind after a long day of work and school. Who the hell wants to just be a normal Joe in an MMO?

Originally posted by Lidane

Originally posted by Abrahmm

The whole point of what we want is NOT to be the hero, just to be an average joe.

That doesn't make a damn bit of sense. If you just want to be an average Joe, then why the hell would you spend $50 on a game box and pay $15 a month in subscription fees? That's stupid. Just go outside and live a normal life.

These games are about an escape from the normal. They're entertainment, and a way to unwind after a long day of work and school. Who the hell wants to just be a normal Joe in an MMO?

 

LOL! Good point. Why QQ for the power of a sandbox only to be an average joe? You know you want to be god like creatures that thirst for griefing players above all. E-Peen Xtremeism to the fullest. Average Joe my ass!

In this box, only one story can be told.....Grief! That story has a small following whether you like it or not.

Originally posted by Cablespider

LOL! Why QQ for the power of a sandbox only to be an average joe?

Exactly!

If the whole point of a sandbox game is to be in a world where there are no levels, no classes, and no linear structure, where skill is king and where your actions directly affect the world around you, why the hell would you waste that just to be Average Joe #1136137651?  I can be the Average Joe in real life. I don't need a game for that, much less a game that requires a monthly fee.

Originally posted by Lidane

Originally posted by Cablespider

LOL! Why QQ for the power of a sandbox only to be an average joe?

Exactly!

If the whole point of a sandbox game is to be in a world where there are no levels, no classes, and no linear structure, where skill is king and where your actions directly affect the world around you, why the hell would you waste that just to be Average Joe #1136137651?  I can be the Average Joe in real life. I don't need a game for that, much less a game that requires a monthly fee.

Ever thought about people who are NOT average Joe in real life and are pleased to be that in a virtual space like MMORPG, I am sorry but I really see a hugh difference in the way people view sandboxers, as a sandboxer I want freedom, in a single player game I want to be the hero, in a MMORPG of course I could become some form of hero among my friends/guild/clan or just to the random person I saved, but I could also enjoy to furnish my newly made/crafted or bought house, and NO I do not want to play The Sims, but I do want to live the life of my character in that virtual world that IS different then the real world, there for The Sims do not interest me one bit due to it being everything a person can do and achieve in real life, MMORPG however place you in a complete different world/planet dimension. And like The Sims I also have a dislike of games like Second Life or Entropia.

Also IF I ever  feel this need to uhum.... "proof " my skills I rather jump into one of the multiplayer FPS games.

And maybe thats just it as the gamer I am I play plenty of games from different genre's and MMORPG use to be that genre of games that for once you didn't NEED to be that Hero, but you could choose to be Average Joe, you weren't forced to only do the things developers have planned out for you to do as in linear stories, again plenty of single player RPG/FPS games for me to enjoy that offer me tons of linear rush type gameplay, MMORPG never where that rush type of games, unfortunately many people have made these games carry the same rush as to most it's all about end game and how to get their the fastest and most efficient way instead of enjoying the journey and totally forgetting about getting leveled eventually you always gain xp, so I still do not understand those people who soul purpose is to lvl in a MMORPG, leveling should be a side effect, these day's it seem to be main factor of many playing these games and if you not lvl up fast enough most of these new people will laugh at you if you have not reached cap lvl after months and months. Again these laughing people simply are not seeing what we are seeing in how I play MMORPG and I definitely play this genre totally different then I play my FPS/RTS or other type of game as to me each game I enter I enter with a different playing attitude.

OP nice post and I fully understand what you are saying, shame many don't..........

Originally posted by Cablespider

LOL! Good point. Why QQ for the power of a sandbox only to be an average joe? You know you want to be god like creatures that thirst for griefing players above all. E-Peen Xtremeism to the fullest. Average Joe my ass!

In this box, only one story can be told.....Grief! That story has a small following whether you like it or not.

Spoken with truth.  Most open sandbox games are littered with griefers who have figured out how to be gods in the game.  Most of these open games require very little teamwork, because people are able to be their own tank, healer and caster all in one.  I prefer the class based games, even though they restrict freedom in choice, they do promote tons of cooperation and teamplay compared to their counters.  I have a feeling that Darkfall is not going to have much in the way of promoting organized teamplay.  It will probably be a bunch of soloist like UO pwning people weaker than them.

The only open game I have seen with lots of teamwork is Eve.  But even in that game, a large sum of players are pretty much following 1 mega corporation player with an ego the size of Rome.

<quote>- I am sorry that I dont enjoy being a delivery boy or a killer hired to perform genocide on some insignificant creature in the world. Those things really should mean alot to me. But they dont.</quote>

Best line out of the OP's post.  I hate the random genocide of pigs these games promote.  At least Warhammer gives me a damn good reason for the genocide.

While it is true that the current crop of sandbox games do little to discourage griefers,, I don't think this is the reason most of their fans play them.

I play sandbox games like Eve because I don't want to be the average Joe either, which is why people who don't want to be the 'average Joe' and then play some linear themepark game puzzle me as these kinds  of games have the exact same sort of enforced mediocrity that's creeping it's way through IRL society.  The game tells you you're special and gives you cookies, but in the end you're just like everyone else, a (happy) cog in the machine with nothing meaningful to differentiate yourself.

In a freeform sandbox-style game you're free to choose your own path.  While I don't like griefers either I think the freedom to be a griefer is very important, so long as there's ways of dealing with people who want to play like that.  I think it's become a litmus test of sorts - Can you be a complete douchebag and not break the game and not force everyone else to be a douchebag because it's the only way to deal with you and/or get things done?

Now, don't get me wrong, I like good themepark games too.  Hell, I played WoW for the better part of three years.  But I never made the mistake of thinking that I was somehow 'special' in the game world by virtue of having done a lot of quests and seen a lot of content.  I was one of the most respected healers on my server (first as a priest, then as a shaman in TBC) but that fact had absolutely nothing to do with the game itself, rather, how I chose to play it.

To me, it seems, the sandbox concept is either someone you 'get' in the first five minutes, or you don't and you log out and never come back.  There's nothing wrong with that - everyone has different tastes and no one game can or should try to appeal to everyone.  I know after I quit WoW and was bored and looking for a new game, that the first time I logged into Eve, I didn't have a clue what I was doing but I did find that I was in a game with no script and only minimal rules.  That appealed to me.  It doesn't to most people.  That's fine -  different strokes for different folks.  Like I've said before, this genre needs to diversify, there's plenty of room for everyone if devs would pull their heads out of their collective asses and stop trying to make WoW clones or expecting us to pay for beta versions.

Originally posted by Reklaw

Ever thought about people who are NOT average Joe in real life and are pleased to be that in a virtual space like MMORPG,

The point is, for most people, MMO's are an escape from the normal. You're playing in worlds that have Orcs, Elves, Trolls, any number of fantasy creatures, and magic. Or you're flying around a city as a superhero, or playing in a futuristic sci-fi world set in the far reaches of space. Normal doesn't exist in an MMO. They're fantasy worlds for a reason.

Quite frankly, it's laughable to want to be normal in a fantasy game. No one, even in tabletop or pen & paper gaming, wants to be the normal dude just along for the ride. They want to be the hero of the story-- the brave knight or rogue with a heart of gold that saves the world. Or they want to be the villain, leaving a trail of death and destruction in their wake. Normal is boring. Who wants that in a game, especially if you have to pay to play it every month?

I am sorry but I really see a hugh difference in the way people view sandboxers, as a sandboxer I want freedom, in a single player game I want to be the hero, in a MMORPG of course I could become some form of hero among my friends/guild/clan or just to the random person I saved, but I could also enjoy to furnish my newly made/crafted or bought house, and NO I do not want to play The Sims, but I do want to live the life of my character in that virtual world that IS different then the real world, there for The Sims do not interest me one bit due to it being everything a person can do and achieve in real life, MMORPG however place you in a complete different world/planet dimension. And like The Sims I also have a dislike of games like Second Life or Entropia.

I've had houses in different games, and have spent time decorating them just the way I want. I've done the RP thing. I've done crafting and spent hours in the tunnels and in the Bazaar back in EQ1 selling things I'd made or found in my travels.  I've immersed myself in the world I'm playing in, at least in my own mind, for the time that I'm in game. However, over the years, I've gotten to the stage where these are just games.

Sure, it's nice to take my little Hobbit into LOTRO and putter around the neighborhood where my house is, or spend time doing crafting and other things to get my reputation up and my house looking the way I want it. I also like taking my heroes around Paragon City and fighting crime or taking my Warrior Priest and taking her through WAR, but in the end, the games are just a diversion, and a nice way to unwind after a long day, and to blow off steam. 

Also IF I ever  feel this need to uhum.... "proof " my skills I rather jump into one of the multiplayer FPS games.

But what's the point of a level-less and class-less system that is skill based if you're not going to prove your skills in an MMO? That makes zero sense. If, as a sandboxer,  you want a game to not have any of the other structures that most MMO's have, and you want it to be skill based,  then it stands to reason that part of that equation is proving your skills to everyone else and showing how Epic and Uber you are. The idea of ditching classes and levels and relying solely on skill, only to not prove your skills makes no sense.

 MMORPG never where that rush type of games

Of course they were. Even back when I played EQ1 there were people who would get together as a guild and PL their friends up to raiding levels as fast as possible just to get to what they saw as the good stuff. The early levels, or making your way across the world? Pfft. It was always about getting to the big, epic fights with the dragons and the gods. Why? Because people want to be the hero. It has been that way since the beginning.
 

unfortunately many people have made these games carry the same rush as to most it's all about end game and how to get their the fastest and most efficient way instead of enjoying the journey and totally forgetting about getting leveled

None of that is new. It's been that way since EQ1 launched, and it will be that way until after the last MMO shuts off its servers forever. People play in their own ways, and for many folks, that involves getting to the high levels as fast as possible and getting to the raids and the epic fights so they can be the hero.

eventually you always gain xp, so I still do not understand those people who soul purpose is to lvl in a MMORPG, leveling should be a side effect, these day's it seem to be main factor of many playing these games and if you not lvl up fast enough most of these new people will laugh at you if you have not reached cap lvl after months and months.

For some folks, an MMO doesn't start until you're raiding. For others, it starts at level 1. It's all in how you play the game, but if you're looking to others for validation of your playstyle,  I can see why that would bother you. Personally, whether I'm in WAR, LOTRO, or CoH/V, I don't give a damn what others think of my playstyle or what level I am. I just go in, play the way I want, do what I want, hang with my friends in the game, and enjoy myself. The rest is details. Who cares what a total stranger thinks of how I play? I'm playing these games to enjoy myself, not get caught up in whatever petty drama someone wants to start because I'm not at max level and they are. 

Again these laughing people simply are not seeing what we are seeing in how I play MMORPG and I definitely play this genre totally different then I play my FPS/RTS or other type of game as to me each game I enter I enter with a different playing attitude.

I don't play an MMO the way I play an RTS or a console RPG, but at the same time, I don't treat an MMO that much differently, either. Sure, it's a game with a persistent world and lots to offer in terms of quests, crafting, and other things to do, but it's still just a game.

Originally posted by Lidane

Originally posted by Reklaw

Ever thought about people who are NOT average Joe in real life and are pleased to be that in a virtual space like MMORPG,

The point is, for most people, MMO's are an escape from the normal. You're playing in worlds that have Orcs, Elves, Trolls, any number of fantasy creatures, and magic. Or you're flying around a city as a superhero, or playing in a futuristic sci-fi world set in the far reaches of space. Normal doesn't exist in an MMO. They're fantasy worlds for a reason.

Quite frankly, it's laughable to want to be normal in a fantasy game. No one, even in tabletop or pen & paper gaming, wants to be the normal dude just along for the ride. They want to be the hero of the story-- the brave knight or rogue with a heart of gold that saves the world. Or they want to be the villain, leaving a trail of death and destruction in their wake. Normal is boring. Who wants that in a game, especially if you have to pay to play it every month?

You see IF and that is IF a MMORPG would indeed provide me with being a Hero that saves the World then of course who wouldn't that?, but you see I can not name one MMORPG that actually let me do that apart from single player RPG's again in my own opinion on how I would view a hero, avarage Joe is far more unique in a MMORPG as like you said  "most" for some reason want to be that hero where you end up with numerous of identical "heroes" who have done the excact same thing as hero nr.1, and this makes people feel heroic?

I am sorry but I really see a hugh difference in the way people view sandboxers, as a sandboxer I want freedom, in a single player game I want to be the hero, in a MMORPG of course I could become some form of hero among my friends/guild/clan or just to the random person I saved, but I could also enjoy to furnish my newly made/crafted or bought house, and NO I do not want to play The Sims, but I do want to live the life of my character in that virtual world that IS different then the real world, there for The Sims do not interest me one bit due to it being everything a person can do and achieve in real life, MMORPG however place you in a complete different world/planet dimension. And like The Sims I also have a dislike of games like Second Life or Entropia.

I've had houses in different games, and have spent time decorating them just the way I want. I've done the RP thing. I've done crafting and spent hours in the tunnels and in the Bazaar back in EQ1 selling things I'd made or found in my travels.  I've immersed myself in the world I'm playing in, at least in my own mind, for the time that I'm in game. However, over the years, I've gotten to the stage where these are just games.

Your meaning? sorry but am I saying I do not see MMORPG as being games?

Sure, it's nice to take my little Hobbit into LOTRO and putter around the neighborhood where my house is, or spend time doing crafting and other things to get my reputation up and my house looking the way I want it. I also like taking my heroes around Paragon City and fighting crime or taking my Warrior Priest and taking her through WAR, but in the end, the games are just a diversion, and a nice way to unwind after a long day, and to blow off steam. 

Geuss you might have completly misunderstand what I meant

Also IF I ever  feel this need to uhum.... "proof " my skills I rather jump into one of the multiplayer FPS games.

But what's the point of a level-less and class-less system that is skill based if you're not going to prove your skills in an MMO? That makes zero sense. If, as a sandboxer,  you want a game to not have any of the other structures that most MMO's have, and you want it to be skill based,  then it stands to reason that part of that equation is proving your skills to everyone else and showing how Epic and Uber you are. The idea of ditching classes and levels and relying solely on skill, only to not prove your skills makes no sense.

You reaction to my personal opinion makes no sence,  "IF I" which means me myself and I feels this need, which does not mean you or anyone else should feel the same way, seem you have a problem understand my own opinion, I was NOT talking a making a point or no point of a lvl-less and class-less system.

 MMORPG never where that rush type of games TO ME and those I played with < Fixed

Of course they were. Even back when I played EQ1 there were people who would get together as a guild and PL their friends up to raiding levels as fast as possible just to get to what they saw as the good stuff. The early levels, or making your way across the world? Pfft. It was always about getting to the big, epic fights with the dragons and the gods. Why? Because people want to be the hero. It has been that way since the beginning.

I saw that period different, I saw lots of people hanging out in groups trying to slay that dragon and felt great when as a group you accomplished it, it was that group dynamic, of course when in a group dynamic there are so many way of playstyle people can have and sure many people always had this rush feel to them even back then, but today it has become a majority for "most""  in my experiance to rush in a genre of games where it is NOT needed, this again does not mean I am right and everyone should play it MY WAY, NO, I am just saying that TO ME I see no need to be cap lvl asap, I don't understand those who do need to rush to the cap lvl, but again that does not mean I condome them for their playstyle, to me it means more that people have fun regardless what way, but it doesn't mean I can not discus my viewpoint on it.
 

unfortunately many people have made these games carry the same rush as to most it's all about end game and how to get their the fastest and most efficient way instead of enjoying the journey and totally forgetting about getting leveled

None of that is new. It's been that way since EQ1 launched, and it will be that way until after the last MMO shuts off its servers forever. People play in their own ways, and for many folks, that involves getting to the high levels as fast as possible and getting to the raids and the epic fights so they can be the hero.

Yet I still don't see anything heroic about becoming cap lvl as so many reach that stage, so this is NOT me saying it can't be fun, cause I am 100% sure that to many it is fun. I mean when a game is lvl based who wouldn't enjoy a new lvl, but to me it doesn't give me a heroic feel but I only see new oppertunity's open up with a new lvl which again is FUN but not heroic TO ME

eventually you always gain xp, so I still do not understand those people who soul purpose is to lvl in a MMORPG, leveling should be a side effect, these day's it seem to be main factor of many playing these games and if you not lvl up fast enough most of these new people will laugh at you if you have not reached cap lvl after months and months.

For some folks, an MMO doesn't start until you're raiding. For others, it starts at level 1. It's all in how you play the game, but if you're looking to others for validation of your playstyle,  I can see why that would bother you. Personally, whether I'm in WAR, LOTRO, or CoH/V, I don't give a damn what others think of my playstyle or what level I am. I just go in, play the way I want, do what I want, hang with my friends in the game, and enjoy myself. The rest is details. Who cares what a total stranger thinks of how I play? I'm playing these games to enjoy myself, not get caught up in whatever petty drama someone wants to start because I'm not at max level and they are. 

Lol doesn't effect me, what made you think that? you might have slightly misread my meaning.

Again these laughing people simply are not seeing what we are seeing in how I play MMORPG and I definitely play this genre totally different then I play my FPS/RTS or other type of game as to me each game I enter I enter with a different playing attitude.

I don't play an MMO the way I play an RTS or a console RPG, but at the same time, I don't treat an MMO that much differently, either. Sure, it's a game with a persistent world and lots to offer in terms of quests, crafting, and other things to do, but it's still just a game.

That is you and what I said is me. Yet YOU tell ME that people can have different playstyles? perhaps you reading to much into what I wrote, or perhaps I didn't make myself clear in a not native language

 

 

You forgot, "I'm sorry I left DAoC for WAR, DAoC was 1000x better."

 Cool original post.

Try EVE, it's not perfect but you will get that rush you want when you jump into enemy system camped by a swarm of hostiles and you will weap silently once they take away your faction gear you worked for for 3 months in less then 10 seconds.

---

Originally posted by Thralia
could not agree more on the warhammer thing and many things.
i myself quit warhammer after first month.

---

I didn't even make it that long. TBH I expected so much more from Mythic.... DAOC was phenomenal in it's day... Warhammer PALES by comparison.

OP hit it spot on.

Well instead of crying here, get off the computer go to the local game store and by a rp game and some dice. What you want can be found in those old pencil and paper dice games, but you wont find it in a mmorpg on the computer, not ever going to happen. But that takes effort and imagination, and mmorpg gamers are losing those traits. Sad to see....

+1 Op that is how I feel too. 

Asheron's Call  1.5 is our only hope.

Originally posted by Lidane

Originally posted by Abrahmm

The whole point of what we want is NOT to be the hero, just to be an average joe.

That doesn't make a damn bit of sense. If you just want to be an average Joe, then why the hell would you spend $50 on a game box and pay $15 a month in subscription fees? That's stupid. Just go outside and live a normal life.

These games are about an escape from the normal. They're entertainment, and a way to unwind after a long day of work and school. Who the hell wants to just be a normal Joe in an MMO?

 

Can I go outside and jump in my spaceship and go shoot down other people? Can I hop on a giant flying griffin and fly around launching fire balls at people? No. It never occured to you that the setting is the escape, and the joy of the game is LIVING like a normal person in a DIFFERENT setting. That never occurred to you because you are absolutely clueless about what you are talking about yet still feel the need to argue with people about what THEY WANT. If we didn't want this, there wouldn't be so many people on this website asking for it. Yet you have come here to argue with us telling us no one wants what so many of us are asking for. Brilliant.

I play single player games to be a hero. It is just plain stupid for everyone to automatically be a hero in an MMORPG. Earning "hero" status, or earning a formidable reputation among the community is one thing, but automatically becoming a hero because the NPC's told you you were is stupid, because when everyone is a hero, when everyone is special, no one is. Again, you don't understand this.

Originally posted by Gravarg

You forgot, "I'm sorry I left DAoC for WAR, DAoC was 1000x better."

Take off the Rose lense and see the truth.  Everytime I see this comment about DAOC, I'm going to remind you all that DAOC had 10 years to develop and when it launched it was in worse shape than WAR ever was.  PvP in that game was ABSOLUTE pointless and imbalanced.

If forums, like this one, were around and popular, like today, when that game released it would have eben torn to shreds by whiner post every hour talking about pointless PvP, Imbalanced classes, unfinished game, horrid animaitons, unoriginal item designs.  Twice as many complaints as WAR or AOC got today.  that is how bad DAOC was when it launched.

Here's what I notice with sandbox games that frustrates me.  The more freedom you give the people to make whatever they want, the less innovative people get.  Many players claim they want sandbox so they can break away from the average Joe build, then when they get in game they choose the same skills as 1000s of other people and level up in the same zones.  Only a minute few break the mold.  BUT, thos minute few typically do not becomes god like int he game.  they just end up being people with an odd tactic that works only sometimes compared to the pros with their "strategy gide" builds.  Every once in a while someone will break the mold and discover an awesome build or an awesome spot to level or quest.  Then within a month everyone on the server is copying that person.

take a look at Guild War skill set to see the truth of freedom.  You have a game with 1000s or people running around with the same 10 builds.  In City of Heroes you have 1000s of player running around with the same costume design and simular names.

Now look at a restricting game like WoW, DAOC, Lineage 2.  In these games you are very simular to everyone else around you.  Leveling up is basiclaly handed to you in predetermined paths.  Yet in these games players go out of their way more to become unique.  You see player using unorthodox items for their character just to get an edge.  When I played WoW, I was knoown as the paladin that freezes people.  I had many many talks with CSR about hacking all because I thought outside the box and wore a ring made for mages.  I felt more unique in WoW than I did in Guild Wars, Anarchy Online, or Star Wars Galaxies.  there seemed to be more guildes and more people searching for new unique builds in these games than in the open skill system games.

Originally posted by Urrelles

Here's what I notice with sandbox games that frustrates me.  The more freedom you give the people to make whatever they want, the less innovative people get.  Many players claim they want sandbox so they can break away from the average Joe build, then when they get in game they choose the same skills as 1000s of other people and level up in the same zones.  Only a minute few break the mold.  BUT, thos minute few typically do not becomes god like int he game.  they just end up being people with an odd tactic that works only sometimes compared to the pros with their "strategy gide" builds.  Every once in a while someone will break the mold and discover an awesome build or an awesome spot to level or quest.  Then within a month everyone on the server is copying that person.

take a look at Guild War skill set to see the truth of freedom.  You have a game with 1000s or people running around with the same 10 builds.  In City of Heroes you have 1000s of player running around with the same costume design and simular names.

 

Now look at a restricting game like WoW, DAOC, Lineage 2.  In these games you are very simular to everyone else around you.  Leveling up is basiclaly handed to you in predetermined paths.  Yet in these games players go out of their way more to become unique.  You see player using unorthodox items for their character just to get an edge.  When I played WoW, I was knoown as the paladin that freezes people.  I had many many talks with CSR about hacking all because I thought outside the box and wore a ring made for mages.  I felt more unique in WoW than I did in Guild Wars, Anarchy Online, or Star Wars Galaxies.  there seemed to be more guildes and more people searching for new unique builds in these games than in the open skill system games.

So basically, you claim a minute few have unique builds in skill based games, but basically everyone tries to be unique in restricting class based games? Give me a break. You cannot even try to use WoW in this example because, as once a WoW player, I know you are completely full of crap. Sure, you may have worn an odd piece of gear to be unique, but you are incredibly few in numbers. There are 10 classes in WoW, and nearly every single person in that game will have one of usually 3 builds(3 is stretching it since many classes have only one or two viable builds), one for each tree. I would venture to guess 95% of the people in the game have a talent build similar or identical to everyone else playing that role with that class. Everyone has the same gear too, they all have the same arena gear, or same BG gear, or same raid gear. Their are obvious gear choices that are far superior to others. The situation of everyone running around in the same builds is 10x worst in WoW than it is in skill based games because people actually GRIND UP new characters to make the new fotm builds.

Yes, skill based games have fotm builds, as does EVERY game(point in case, were you in WoW over the last year? Remember the Warlock influx because they were OP? Then the resto druid influx.. Then the rogue influx? Yeah). It is unavoidable. People are going to find the most efficient/best build and they are going to use it. But what does it matter to you? Find what you like and play it.

In SWG, I ran a build that I never saw anyone else have. I loved it, and I did extremely well with it. In Guild Wars, one of my favorite things to do is find and create new builds, and I have made some awesome ones. I don't go around sharing my builds to help avoid the very problem you discussed. But just because so many people lack the imagination and creativity to think for themselves doesn't mean that the systems shouldn't be used.

I've pretty much given up completely on this genre. Hate to admit it but I've returned to my console and single player RPGs. They offer me much more depth and fun then the typical watered down mmorpg of today

I did have some fun in EVE for awhile but alas I tired of the pursuit of ISK.

I still want a sandbox but ideally I'd want something that makes it a lot of fun to accrue wealth, xp, etc. For instance I'm really digging how I can buy a business in Fable 2 and make money offline.

Until mmorpgs figure out ways to make me have fun w/o extreme grinding I'll just stick to my offline RPGs (elder scrolls, fallout 3, fable 2, etc)

Originally posted by Abrahmm

Can I go outside and jump in my spaceship and go shoot down other people? Can I hop on a giant flying griffin and fly around launching fire balls at people? No. It never occured to you that the setting is the escape, and the joy of the game is LIVING like a normal person in a DIFFERENT setting.

Why would I want to live like a normal person in a different setting? That's boring. I play these games to get away from normal. Whether it's throwing myself into a superhero toon in City of Heroes, flying around the city, or traveling across a world filled with orcs and elves in WAR and LOTRO, I'm not in a normal world, so why would I want to be a normal shlub in that game? If I wanted normal, I wouldn't play MMO's.

That never occurred to you because you are absolutely clueless about what you are talking about yet still feel the need to argue with people about what THEY WANT. If we didn't want this, there wouldn't be so many people on this website asking for it. Yet you have come here to argue with us telling us no one wants what so many of us are asking for. Brilliant.

I don't understand how anyone could want normalcy in a fantasy game. Start by explaining that, because it doesn't make a damn bit of sense. When you're done with that, explain why anyone would want to be the average Joe in a game world. The average Joes are the NPC's. That's why they depend on your character to help them. They can't do it themselves because they're the average and you're the hero who is there to save them from their predicament.

That's how these games work. You start off as just a peon with a crappy weapon in your hand, or whatever, and you slowly work your way up to where you're wearing legendary armor and fighting dragons and gods that are threatening the world. It's a hero's quest no matter how you look at it, and even if there are 10,000 other people on your server on the same journey.

I play single player games to be a hero. It is just plain stupid for everyone to automatically be a hero in an MMORPG. Earning "hero" status, or earning a formidable reputation among the community is one thing, but automatically becoming a hero because the NPC's told you you were is stupid, because when everyone is a hero, when everyone is special, no one is. Again, you don't understand this.

Yes, yes. I get all that. The point is, I can't think of a single person who plays these games just to be the average Joe. Who plays an MMO just to be another cog in the machine? Sure, that's what your character ultimately is because of everyone else playing the same game and everyone else being told by the NPC's that they're a hero. That's not the point.

I believe most folks play these games just to create that character they've always wanted to be, in a world that appeals to them. They fight their way through the game world on their own and with others, eventually getting to those big epic fights so they can get that awesome sword or whatever and feel accomplished. It's why the big battles in the end game are so desireable to people -- no one wants to be stuck killing rats in the n00b yard forever. They want to fight those big monsters and do those impressive raids, not only for the gear, but the prestige of their character fighting those monsters at all. That suggests that normal is anathema to what many players want from these games.

Originally posted by Urrelles

Here's what I notice with sandbox games that frustrates me.  The more freedom you give the people to make whatever they want, the less innovative people get.  Many players claim they want sandbox so they can break away from the average Joe build, then when they get in game they choose the same skills as 1000s of other people and level up in the same zones.  Only a minute few break the mold.  BUT, thos minute few typically do not becomes god like int he game.  they just end up being people with an odd tactic that works only sometimes compared to the pros with their "strategy gide" builds.  Every once in a while someone will break the mold and discover an awesome build or an awesome spot to level or quest.  Then within a month everyone on the server is copying that person.

take a look at Guild War skill set to see the truth of freedom.  You have a game with 1000s or people running around with the same 10 builds.  In City of Heroes you have 1000s of player running around with the same costume design and simular names.

 

Now look at a restricting game like WoW, DAOC, Lineage 2.  In these games you are very simular to everyone else around you.  Leveling up is basiclaly handed to you in predetermined paths.  Yet in these games players go out of their way more to become unique.  You see player using unorthodox items for their character just to get an edge.  When I played WoW, I was knoown as the paladin that freezes people.  I had many many talks with CSR about hacking all because I thought outside the box and wore a ring made for mages.  I felt more unique in WoW than I did in Guild Wars, Anarchy Online, or Star Wars Galaxies.  there seemed to be more guildes and more people searching for new unique builds in these games than in the open skill system games.

Sigh, it's not about "builds" that is such a restricted way to view sandboxes. Take EVE Online. There are no "builds" per se. You grab the skills you want to create a unique character

And dude what are you talking about in City of Heroes you saw 1000s of players running around with the same costumes? I played that game for a year and NEVER saw anyone with a similar costume.

Sandboxes, a fully developed one, will be like EVE Online. Players can build cities. It's not just about your character. You can impact the world itself and that will be your legacy

You can quit the game; never play it again. But there will always be things left behind that you made. In regards to EVE- this maybe a POS that your corp/friends put up. In SWG, this should be the cities and houses you had up. Impact! Not just about your 'character'

That's the problem. Thats why current mmorpgs are so shallow. They only cater to people that sweat over spreadsheets over their 'builds' and GEAR.

So?

The game should have DEPTH. You should be able to go out with your Guild and IMPACT the world. Leave your mark. One day you may quit the game. One day you may logout. But you leave something behind

I dont care if everyone in the game has the same build. I could care less. Just give me the freedom to look unique. Let my player skill make a difference in battle. Give me a lot of tactical options.

Builds; such a shallow way to view mmorpgs.

Originally posted by logicbomb82

+1 Op that is how I feel too. 

 

Asheron's Call  1.5 is our only hope.

If Turbine went back to that progression system...I'd so be there. I heard they were working on another game but haven't heard anything about it yet.

Well, this always comes back to the same points:

1) Entertainment

2) The player's "role"

I know this is obvious, but it's almost completely subjective when you say that some thing is entertaining.  Questing, grinding, raiding, PvP, classes, skills, instances, open world...it just depends on what you like.  You can say that the WoW style of gaming is more entertaining and that's probably true for a lot of people, but not every one. 

The Hero vs Average Joe debate is kind of pointless.  In every MMO, regardless of whether it's "sandbox" or themepark, 99% of players are just average joes.  Every one can't be a hero.  Sure, you can do a bunch of heroic type of quests, but they don't have any effect on the game world and every one else is doing them too...so, you're not really a hero.  A more open MMO just gives you the option of choosing your own path, rather than forcing you through the level grind of the quest train.

Originally posted by Lidane

Originally posted by Abrahmm

Can I go outside and jump in my spaceship and go shoot down other people? Can I hop on a giant flying griffin and fly around launching fire balls at people? No. It never occured to you that the setting is the escape, and the joy of the game is LIVING like a normal person in a DIFFERENT setting.

Why would I want to live like a normal person in a different setting? That's boring. I play these games to get away from normal. Whether it's throwing myself into a superhero toon in City of Heroes, flying around the city, or traveling across a world filled with orcs and elves in WAR and LOTRO, I'm not in a normal world, so why would I want to be a normal shlub in that game? If I wanted normal, I wouldn't play MMO's.

Thats great that YOU want that, that YOU enjoy that, that YOU look for that in an MMO. But clearly, I and many others don't. Lucky for you there is a slew of games that cater just to what you want, and all we ask is for a few games to cater to us. Yet you come here and tell us how what you want is how it should be, and how what we want is wrong. This is what  we want, and if you are too dense to understand that people have different opinions, than explaining it any further is pointless.

That never occurred to you because you are absolutely clueless about what you are talking about yet still feel the need to argue with people about what THEY WANT. If we didn't want this, there wouldn't be so many people on this website asking for it. Yet you have come here to argue with us telling us no one wants what so many of us are asking for. Brilliant.

I don't understand how anyone could want normalcy in a fantasy game. Start by explaining that, because it doesn't make a damn bit of sense. When you're done with that, explain why anyone would want to be the average Joe in a game world. The average Joes are the NPC's. That's why they depend on your character to help them. They can't do it themselves because they're the average and you're the hero who is there to save them from their predicament.

That's how these games work. You start off as just a peon with a crappy weapon in your hand, or whatever, and you slowly work your way up to where you're wearing legendary armor and fighting dragons and gods that are threatening the world. It's a hero's quest no matter how you look at it, and even if there are 10,000 other people on your server on the same journey.

Thats YOUR opinion,  YOUR ideals, and YOUR wants and needs in a game. See above.

I play single player games to be a hero. It is just plain stupid for everyone to automatically be a hero in an MMORPG. Earning "hero" status, or earning a formidable reputation among the community is one thing, but automatically becoming a hero because the NPC's told you you were is stupid, because when everyone is a hero, when everyone is special, no one is. Again, you don't understand this.

Yes, yes. I get all that. The point is, I can't think of a single person who plays these games just to be the average Joe. Who plays an MMO just to be another cog in the machine? Sure, that's what your character ultimately is because of everyone else playing the same game and everyone else being told by the NPC's that they're a hero. That's not the point.

I believe most folks play these games just to create that character they've always wanted to be, in a world that appeals to them. They fight their way through the game world on their own and with others, eventually getting to those big epic fights so they can get that awesome sword or whatever and feel accomplished. It's why the big battles in the end game are so desireable to people -- no one wants to be stuck killing rats in the n00b yard forever. They want to fight those big monsters and do those impressive raids, not only for the gear, but the prestige of their character fighting those monsters at all. That suggests that normal is anathema to what many players want from these games.

Once again you are speaking for other people. I'm not saying their should be no heroes in the game, but players should earn their reputation by being the best on the server, not because the developers give them god like powers. Again, if you can't understand the idea of differing opinions, than you are too dense to understand any of this. And you don't understand it, but here you are telling people what they think is wrong, then go on to claim you that you know no one that thinks like this even though this thread is full of those people.

 

video games are an escape from reality... why mimic reality... why make a world that copies our economy, copies endless level grinding (sort of like getting up every morning, going to work, coming home and sleeping just to do it again in the morning).

video games, and specifically, MMORPGs should try to be an escape from this abysmally dull, and lack-luster, mundane world we humans live in day after day.

with that said... i would like to play in an mmorpg wherein i can be an average joe, and do nothing special, and beat up on rats all day in the n00b areas forever... then I can log off, go to bed, get up in the morning and go back to work LOL

'nuff said