Originally posted by singsofdeath

Originally posted by jayheld90

haha, no kidding, i wish you werent able to even play a jedi. kind of like lotro, where you cant be a wizard...because they are too powerful.

 

In LOTRO you couldn't play a Wizard because in the Lore it was clearly stated that there only were a select number of wizards in the entire world of Middle-Earth, each one tasked with a specific mission in the world. They were not human by definition, they were a race by themselves.

 

Being too powerful was only a secondary reason.

 

As for Jedi in ToR. Sheesh people...this discussion has been done to death. The decision on that is already made (or so it would appear).

You guys call yourselves Star Wars fans yet complain about Jedi? People really need to get over the Jedi issue in this game, it’s not Galaxies and it’s not the same timeline. The setting for this game is basically the ramping up of a war between the Jedi (Republic) and Sith empire. Both have non Jedi troops, but for the Sith their troops are secondary to the Sith themselves.

People complained about how lots of Jedi in Galaxies ruined the timeline canon, true. Though I’m sure there could have been plenty hiding during this time, they defiantly weren’t breaking out in full battles in Theed. But during the Old Republic era, Jedi played a huge role in the bigger picture and there are plenty of them. I hope we see plenty other types of players in the game, but seeing an army of Jedi isn’t gonna be something out of the ordinary during this period.

I guess if you don't like Jedi, then don't play Jedi. If anything it will help balance things out more. For all we know it's something like a Kotor unlock, they still haven't told people exactly how this will be handled. I assume though the reason why companion characters are non Jedi is so that it balances this out a bit. There may even be a way to switch between your companions like in KOTOR. Like I said, they haven't given us much information. The only thing we do know is the game will have something for most types of players, and it's not SWG run by SOE.  So, are you guys gonna just let it it go, or crytit for another 4 years about how this game has Jedi and isn't SWG?

Originally posted by tillamook

You guys call yourselves Star Wars fans yet complain about Jedi? People really need to get over the Jedi issue in this game, it’s not Galaxies and it’s not the same timeline. The setting for this game is basically the ramping up of a war between the Jedi (Republic) and Sith empire. Both have non Jedi troops, but for the Sith their troops are secondary to the Sith themselves.

People complained about how lots of Jedi in Galaxies ruined the timeline canon, true. Though I’m sure there could have been plenty hiding during this time, they defiantly weren’t breaking out in full battles in Theed. But during the Old Republic era, Jedi played a huge role in the bigger picture and there are plenty of them. I hope we see plenty other types of players in the game, but seeing an army of Jedi isn’t gonna be something out of the ordinary during this period.

I guess if you don't like Jedi, then don't play Jedi. If anything it will help balance things out more. For all we know it's something like a Kotor unlock, they still haven't told people exactly how this will be handled. I assume though the reason why companion characters are non Jedi is so that it balances this out a bit. There may even be a way to switch between your companions like in KOTOR. Like I said, they haven't given us much information. The only thing we do know is the game will have something for most types of players, and it's not SWG run by SOE.  So, are you guys gonna just let it it go, or crytit for another 4 years about how this game has Jedi and isn't SWG?

And I'm seriously hoping this game does not cater to the meta-gaming, min-maxing, solo-grouping, afk-dancing, KD+Dizzy'ing, recursive macro'ing, credit-duping, defense-stacking, lot-trading, I-have-five-accounts-so-my-opinion-counts-more-than-yours-even-though-I'm-thumbing-my-nose-at-the-very-premise-of-player-interdependence, pre-CU-FTW crowd.

Originally posted by hanshotfirst

And I'm seriously hoping this game does not cater to the meta-gaming, min-maxing, solo-grouping, afk-dancing, KD+Dizzy'ing, recursive macro'ing, credit-duping, defense-stacking, lot-trading, I-have-five-accounts-so-my-opinion-counts-more-than-yours-even-though-I'm-thumbing-my-nose-at-the-very-premise-of-player-interdependence, pre-CU-FTW crowd.

completely.

the way i see it, there will be a tremendous amounts of jedi (if not only that) the only difference is that their speciality will be the "class" system. guardian, sentinel, etc... like we saw in the movies, ep3 there is a librarian who is considered a jedi, there are also jedi crafters, jedi diplomats and so on... so classes will be handled by type of jedi. I am ok with that. since that is the proper timeline, and like some poster above said, it wont be a rare sight to see jedi armies.

now that TOR is out of the way, lets get SWG in here. for those who say i wont play a starwars game if i can't clicky jedi? fine, your type is "i am unique, just like everyone else"  how boring can you be? in an MMO you must understand that if you make a class a "starter class" then it must be equal to every other "starter class" out there. so your uber jedi isnt so uber anymore, it is exacly the same as a swordsman (all things being equal) the problem with star wars is that jedi (in the SWG era) jedi could be seen as semi-gods with super natural powers "size matters not rmmhhhrrrr!" so by

A) putting  them in a game they almost are obliged to be a alpha class, but being an MMO they can't make it unless they give them specific rules 1- 1/3 xp gain 2-xp loss on death 3-permaTEF 4-etc...

"with great power comes great responsability"

B)not make them playable, this will solve the "i can click the i win button by clicking jedi" so now you have the same starwars universe WITH the jedi, but removing all the problem it brings by trying to incorporate a class we all know to be greater than any other class in the universe. Make them NPCs and/or Mobs (there you go SW universe without removing all the SW elements)

besides, when i started to play Starwars galaxies at launch i wanted to be firstly and mostly a bounty hunter. then when bots and missions and everything BH was buged out of existance i changed and i wanted to be a smuggler, was fun for a while, but meh, nothing to smuggle, though slicing and spicing kept me busy for a while. then i wanted to be a doctor/ combat med to participate in GCW was fun i coul dbe usefull in the med center and on the field and it stayed that way until NGE hit and well... buffs gone, docs useless combat med gone, me gone. ( i am in eve now)

P.S. i think i look cooler when i say i "can kill a jedi" than jedi saying "im a jedi" (shhh, no one has to know we are of equal strengths when we begin the game)

Originally posted by hanshotfirst

And I'm seriously hoping this game does not cater to the meta-gaming, min-maxing, solo-grouping, afk-dancing, KD+Dizzy'ing, recursive macro'ing, credit-duping, defense-stacking, lot-trading, I-have-five-accounts-so-my-opinion-counts-more-than-yours-even-though-I'm-thumbing-my-nose-at-the-very-premise-of-player-interdependence, pre-CU-FTW crowd.

Oh don't you worry, don't you worry little hanshotfirst, you will get your jebidai, don't you worry one bit, you won't have to think at all, you can just click **magic** become a jebidai and go kill, loot, repeat as much as your little linear heart desires.

Originally posted by Abrahmm

Originally posted by hanshotfirst

And I'm seriously hoping this game does not cater to the meta-gaming, min-maxing, solo-grouping, afk-dancing, KD+Dizzy'ing, recursive macro'ing, credit-duping, defense-stacking, lot-trading, I-have-five-accounts-so-my-opinion-counts-more-than-yours-even-though-I'm-thumbing-my-nose-at-the-very-premise-of-player-interdependence, pre-CU-FTW crowd.

 

Oh don't you worry, don't you worry little hanshotfirst, you will get your jebidai, don't you worry one bit, you won't have to think at all, you can just click **magic** become a jebidai and go kill, loot, repeat as much as your little linear heart desires.

Uh oh, a scorned lover perhaps?

Meh - I'd rather play a Bounty Hunter anyways.

Originally posted by Abrahmm

Originally posted by hanshotfirst

And I'm seriously hoping this game does not cater to the meta-gaming, min-maxing, solo-grouping, afk-dancing, KD+Dizzy'ing, recursive macro'ing, credit-duping, defense-stacking, lot-trading, I-have-five-accounts-so-my-opinion-counts-more-than-yours-even-though-I'm-thumbing-my-nose-at-the-very-premise-of-player-interdependence, pre-CU-FTW crowd.

 

Oh don't you worry, don't you worry little hanshotfirst, you will get your jebidai, don't you worry one bit, you won't have to think at all, you can just click **magic** become a jebidai and go kill, loot, repeat as much as your little linear heart desires.

Aww... I guess after all that AFK dancin', nade-chuckin', and spin-groupin' (or was it eBay buyin'?), someone was a little bent out of shape his Theed-dueling, alpha-class-that-never-belonged-in-the-damn-timeline-to-begin-with wasn't so special anymore.

And just for the record, chief, my vocation of choice was Smuggler — you know, the supposedly iconic profession that never actually smuggled a goddamn thing, because the devs were too preoccupied overlooking your credit-dupin' and making sure your little glow-bat swinging, pajama-wearing village person felt just right.

Originally posted by dterry

Meh - I'd rather play a Bounty Hunter anyways.

Same here. I've always played Bounty Hunter. My first toon was BH, after I unlocked Jedi on him I made my alt another BH and played him more then my Jedi. Jedi had its uses in SWG (Group healer/tanker), as I'm sure it will in this game, I just always felt more comfortable with a Blaster. If given the chance most likely I'll have both, would be kinda cool to be BH with a Jedi companion character.

I think the point of the thread was the Op being more afraid of the "I Pawn Joo" crowd being attracted to this game. I have no problem with there being lots of Jedi and Sith in this game since the time frame the game is set in calls for it. That was not the case with SWG. That game was supposed to be set in a time period when Luke and Yoda were the last of the jedi. So of course hundreds of lightsabers in full view of stormtroopers made no sense.  And of course once everyone learned how to become a jedi, the kiddies took it to be an alpha class.

Hopefully this game allows you to be competetive as a Bounty Hunter or any other combat class. If not, then they can have it, because the last dozen Star Wars games have me all jedi'd out.  I'm not saying jedi shouldn't be in the game, I'm just saying make other classes fun to play for those that don't get thrills swinging the glowbat.

Originally posted by hanshotfirst

Originally posted by Abrahmm

Originally posted by hanshotfirst

And I'm seriously hoping this game does not cater to the meta-gaming, min-maxing, solo-grouping, afk-dancing, KD+Dizzy'ing, recursive macro'ing, credit-duping, defense-stacking, lot-trading, I-have-five-accounts-so-my-opinion-counts-more-than-yours-even-though-I'm-thumbing-my-nose-at-the-very-premise-of-player-interdependence, pre-CU-FTW crowd.

 

Oh don't you worry, don't you worry little hanshotfirst, you will get your jebidai, don't you worry one bit, you won't have to think at all, you can just click **magic** become a jebidai and go kill, loot, repeat as much as your little linear heart desires.

 

Aww... I guess after all that AFK dancin', nade-chuckin', and spin-groupin' (or was it eBay buyin'?), someone was a little bent out of shape his Theed-dueling, alpha-class-that-never-belonged-in-the-damn-timeline-to-begin-with wasn't so special anymore.

And just for the record, chief, my vocation of choice was Smuggler — you know, the supposedly iconic profession that never actually smuggled a goddamn thing, because the devs were too preoccupied overlooking your credit-dupin' and making sure your little glow-bat swinging, pajama-wearing village person felt just right.

meh, I agree those were all problems.

Originally posted by leumasx7

Originally posted by FreddyNoNose

Originally posted by darkevision

After reading the original post, and it's subsequent responses, I was moved to comment on whether SW:TOR would "have a gabillion Jedi running around"! I think that everyone has overlooked the fact that Star Wars, like *every other* warriors' tale is always based on the basic premise of the lone, often misunderstood and aimless hero. The hero is given a quest by a powerful being, a quest which, in it's overwhelming complexity and difficulty, often demands he have help from an assortment of friends and cohorts! The odds are overwhelming, the villain all-powerful, the situation hopeless....In order to find his way, the protaganist must unite his friends, develop his skills, face the villain( who almost always, in a so-called twist, is actually tied to the hero in some overlooked but often surprising manner), and save the day.

All warrior tales since the original Chinese warrior tales of a thousand  years ago have had this basic formula, and what makes them interesting is the immense characters, environments and locations that can be inserted in the build-a-story template.

The Jedi were based on the Samurai culture of the Asian continent, and George Lucas would be the first to admit it, and has on many occasions! The reason I mention this is because the Star Wars Galaxy, in any iteration, would not be the same without them, for they are the very reason Star Wars exists. What Star Wars Galaxy failed to do, and I hope sincerely that TOR finally gets right, is to realize that an MMO is always, always, *always* about the journey, not the destination!

Players should *never*, *ever* be allowed to start as a Jedi! And they must never be restricted from BECOMING a Jedi, either! Each player, as in life, must begin a journey based on their likes and dislikes, their upbringing and their hidden fantasies about their own lives! How many people do you know, including yourself, are doing today the exact thing, in the exact manner, for a living that they dreamed of being as a child? Not many, I would wager! i wanted to be an astronaut, a fireman  and a policeman at different times in my early childhood, and today I have fulfilled only one of these goals, and the round about way in which I accomplished it would not be the way that most would have done it.....and yet, it is my experience in reaching this goal that has defined me as a person!

What would make TOR an unqualified success(other than the obvious), would be to make the journey to the top level in the 1st iteration of the game, the journey to actually become a Jedi or whatever character you choose to become! In other words, Luke did not choose to be a Jedi before he met Obi-Wan, and Leia did not choose to become a diplomat while she was playing Galactic Barbie...these choices were arrived at based on their experiences! TOR could make this the most enjoyable, exciting and must-be-played MMO of all time by simply allowing the journey to be *completely* determined by the players' choices!

After all, the Star Wars Galaxy and Mythos are filled with Jedi who became Jedi only after a lifetime of other experiences( especially KOTOR!) Purchase the game and pay attention to the back stories of the characters, and you will see that a number of the non-Jedi display Jedi-like abilities, which KOTOR 2 actually made a part of the gameplay!

The basic message of my response is that TOR's first 40(or 50, I don't know how many the game will have in actual first issue release) levels should be completed in order to determine the actual direction your character determines he would like to go! Can you imagine the pre-orders for the 1st expansion, not to mention the hype and interest in the community at-large! What the majority of MMO's do is get everyone to level cap as quickly as possible with a determined premise and storyline, and from then on, the character can no longer mature and grow! A character you have devoted hundreds of hours to, and suddenly, not with a bang but a whimper, there is no longer anything to do with it but stand around in the markets or beginner area and make stupid jokes and fire off lame emotes from then on! Or, Joy of Joys, start farming with it(whoop - ti-doo!).

So , I hope that TOR finally gets it right, by realizing that an MMO should constantly move forward, should constantly expand, and should constantly re-invent itself, just as we do in real life! Thanks for reading this, and good luck on *your* journey!

 

If jedi are not a starting option, I will not start playing this game.  I didn't play SWG for the same reason.  It just wouldn't be star wars to me.

 

what i have to say to u, then dont play...

 

im with dark on most things, but the bioware altering the mmo all the time. it takes them lots of money and devotion of time to do that, not to mention. u played kotor. u know how long it takes to write all those conversations? i can see making a expansion for new levels and stuff and conversations.or some patch adding end time things. but u dont want to make the game to long to level, or people will be fed up.

 

now to freddy. just getting jedi when start out is like. getting a credit card with no limit at age 5. its being complete spoiled, and you have nothing to work at. u acomplished nothing. you didnt even get the other weapons a try, and probably will be a nub jedi from not even experiancing basic combat swords.

~now i agree on working on it, to know the mechanics, to not just get the most credited class in the game. and I think i can speak for most and say We dont want this to 'Be Like WOW'.

 

No just getting it in SWG at the start was getting it for nothing because it had to be earned at some point in that game. This is not SWG we are in a time line where their are countless Jedi/Sith. They are not all powerful either. Jedi are trained from like age 5. They even made a point of stating that in KOTOR 1. If we start a caracter as a Jedi/Sith its like the other classes, we are starting them with their basic training they have grown up getting.

But this is just like SWG, we should have everything just like SWG, and we should complain about it just like SWG because it's SWG.

I like Jedi, but I also hope that there are viable alternatives.

If they're following the early SWG route (hope hope hope) with a single character and customizable "classes" (including dedicated crafting) then I'll aim for a saber-wielding craftsman.

I'm just hoping like hell that they don't have hard-coded "classes" that turn out to be:

1. Jedi 1hSaberdude.
2. Jedi 2hSaberdude.
3. Jedi DualwieldSaberdude.
4 . Jedi Lightningdude.
5. Wookie. Not a jedi, generally useless but damn entertaining as pets. Wrroaoaargh!

I'm also hoping they don't do the typically modern thing of letting everyone pick up a craft skill without sacrificing any other abilities. One of the things I loved most about early SWG was that good crafters were generally rare and well-known on the server for their dedication and reliability.

Just don't get that in WoW.

Originally posted by Ilvaldyr

I like Jedi, but I also hope that there are viable alternatives.

If they're following the early SWG route (hope hope hope) with a single character and customizable "classes" (including dedicated crafting) then I'll aim for a saber-wielding craftsman.

I'm just hoping like hell that they don't have hard-coded "classes" that turn out to be:

1. Jedi 1hSaberdude.
2. Jedi 2hSaberdude.
3. Jedi DualwieldSaberdude.
4 . Jedi Lightningdude.
5. Wookie. Not a jedi, generally useless but damn entertaining as pets. Wrroaoaargh!

I'm also hoping they don't do the typically modern thing of letting everyone pick up a craft skill without sacrificing any other abilities. One of the things I loved most about early SWG was that good crafters were generally rare and well-known on the server for their dedication and reliability.

Just don't get that in WoW.

i think it would be more of this fashion

• Force Warrior – a Jedi who was skilled in a special type of unarmed combat, using meditative martial arts and the Force.
• Jedi Ace – a Jedi who had specialized in starfighter combat, combining piloting skills with mastery of the Force.
• Jedi Gatemaster – the Jedi who served as the keeper of the main entrance at the Jedi Temple. These Jedi were usually trained in a special way.
• Jedi Guardian – a Jedi Master who was especially skilled in battle, the Guardian would concentrate mainly on martial training and combat in general without losing focus on diplomacy and the philosophies of the Force.
• Jedi Consular – a Jedi Master who was especially skilled in applications of the Force, the Consular would concentrate primarily on the diplomacy and the powers and philosophies of the Force. Similar to the Force Warrior.
• Jedi Sentinel – The balance point between Guardians and Consulars, Sentinels would focus on balancing between applications of the Force and combat skills.
• Jedi Weapon Master – a Jedi Master who focused solely on battle, the Weapon Master was among the greatest physical fighters of the Order.
• Jedi Watchman – The equivalent of the Jedi Sentinel, the Jedi Watchman investigated the mysteries of the galaxy and sought out injustice and harm and brought it into the light. A Jedi Watchman was assigned to watch over a particular system in the galaxy, and served it in all means.
• Jedi Healer – Some Jedi would focus on the more Humanitarian aspects of the Force, specializing in Force powers based on Force healing. In addition to knowledge of such Force powers, also had extensive knowledge of medicine and medical technology. Jedi healers were normally stationed at the Jedi Medical Corps Infirmary, but would also serve in the field. For instance, around the time of the Clone Wars, Jedi healers would serve aboard MedStar frigates and, occasionally, in Republic's mobile surgical units ("Rimsoos").
• Jedi archaeologist – a Jedi who had specialized in gaining historical knowledge through archaeology, the Jedi archaeologist was often a member of the ExplorCorps and involved in expeditions of various kinds.
• Jedi historian – a Jedi who had specialized in chronicling the history of the galaxy and the Jedi Order, the Jedi historian knew virtually everything about the past of the Jedi Order.
• Jedi librarian – a Jedi who had specialized in administrating vast databases of knowledge, the Jedi librarian was in charge of an important Jedi library, such as the ancient Great Jedi Library, the library of the Jedi Enclave on Dantooine, or the Jedi Archives.
• Jedi geologist – a Jedi who had specialized in geology.
• Jedi investigator – a Jedi specially appointed by the Council to uncover hidden and obscure threats to the galaxy such as powerful criminal syndicates, corruption and conspiracy against the Republic and other shady menaces. The Jedi investigator would often work alone and undercover to infiltrate suspicious organizations or would be busy investigating some act of crime.
• Jedi Shadow – a Jedi whose job was to seek out and destroy any sign of the dark side of the Force, the Jedi shadow was the Jedi Order's primary weapon against the dark side up until the Clone Wars. The Jedi Shadow was a Jedi tasked with infiltrating dark side groups and cults to expose them to justice.
• Jedi instructor – a Jedi accountable for giving general teachings to Younglings, Padawans, or the occasional older beings. Sometimes Council members, who were frequently at the Jedi Temple, where initial instruction commonly took place, served as Jedi instructors. However, most such mentors were stationed at a Jedi Praxeum or academy.
• Jedi battlemaster – a Jedi highly skilled in lightsaber combat, the Battlemaster was the lightsaber combat instructor of a Jedi Praxeum, Temple, or Academy.
• Jedi trainer – a Jedi student or Jedi Knight responsible for teaching and instructing a certain aspect of the Force, the Jedi trainer was a vital component in the education of Jedi Knights in the early years of the New Jedi Order.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Jedi

this is pure speculation, they might take those classes, make some elite others basic starters and others might be a tree aside  with more branched out specifics

Originally posted by Ilvaldyr

I'm also hoping they don't do the typically modern thing of letting everyone pick up a craft skill without sacrificing any other abilities. One of the things I loved most about early SWG was that good crafters were generally rare and well-known on the server for their dedication and reliability.

Just don't get that in WoW.

Which is effectively bypassed merely by acquiring more than one account, a practice I shouldn't need remind you was quite common in SWG.

You're talking about player-interdependency. It sounds great on paper, Raph Koster philosophical musings, and perhaps even works in small, table-top games played amongst friends. But in a massively-multiplayer environment? Not so much. It's far, far too susceptible to meta-gaming.

Originally posted by hanshotfirst

Originally posted by Ilvaldyr

I'm also hoping they don't do the typically modern thing of letting everyone pick up a craft skill without sacrificing any other abilities. One of the things I loved most about early SWG was that good crafters were generally rare and well-known on the server for their dedication and reliability.

Just don't get that in WoW.

 

Which is effectively bypassed merely by acquiring more than one account, a practice I shouldn't need remind you was quite common in SWG.

You're talking about player-interdependency. It sounds great on paper, Raph Koster philosophical musings, and perhaps even works in small, table-top games played amongst friends. But in a massively-multiplayer environment? Not so much. It's far, far too susceptible to meta-gaming.

Oh, I don't know.. if a concerted effort is made to make each crafting skill individually demanding and involving, having to pay for 5+ accounts just to have 1 of every crafter would be a bit pointless if you weren't able to "progress" in all of them due to time constraints.

It would be (could/should be?) like trying to play an existing MMO with 5+ "main characters".

I've seen this debate go on for years in the SWG forums.  I always see the same points being made.

What the problem is with Jedi in a MMORPG has nothing to do with the fact that they can use the force; it's because the developers are ignorant to Star Wars lore and know little about them. They seem them in the movies as super heroes that can't be touched by conventional methods.  This is the biggest error I've seen with any Star Wars game.

Sure a Sith Lord might be able to pull off some of the feats I've seen accomplished in some of the games; but a Jedi can be cut down in the heat of battle just as easy as a conventional soldier.

Their secret weapon isn't even their light saber, it's their battle meditation which makes them effective in a large scale combat situation.  The lightsaber is more of a tool used to focus their abilities than it is a weapon.

If they wanted to do Jedi right in a mass scale game like this, they would need establish methods to kill them as easy as any other combat class.

Killing a Jedi doesn't require some super human feat, just some crude tactics and weaponary.  This is a huge blunder I saw with the Jedi in SWG in the beginning.  They were far too powerful even for an Alpha class, plus they huge numbers didn't fit into the time frame of the game.  So that was another flaw with the developers lack of understanding of SW lore.

I'm sure Bioware will do a much better job with how Jedi are managed in TOR than the fools who worked at SOE.