holy shit i just read my own thoughts! But then again, i'm also a remnant of the last millenia, it's something with us that don't enjoy the new casual MMOs eh?

you're right !However, we always of lots of sorries for things or for persons.So what? why not pay more time more attention to them?hey~guy~relax yourself

I'm surprised that people are actually pissed off by threads like this.  If you enjoy the current crop of MMOs, why would you even care?  You have at least a few options out there that you could be playing, rather than hangin on the forums.

MMO fans are NEVER going to agree on one type of MMO. 

Originally posted by Zorndorf

OP : Read this:

------------

As the governor of the Alliance principality of Hearthglen, Tirion lived a comfortable life, well-respected by his subjects and loved by his wife Karanda and son Taelan. Both a great warrior and a just ruler, Tirion was renowned throughout the Kingdom of Lordaeron. In spite of his acclaimed military prowess, Tirion's experience as a Paladin during the orcish invasions had taught him to value peace. After the wars were over, Tirion prayed every night that no conflict would ever bring harm to his subjects again.

One day, he encountered an old orc hermit living in an abandoned tower. The two immediately battled and traded blows until a piece of the ruined tower collapsed on Tirion, knocking him senseless. He awoke in his bed days later and discovered that he had been found badly beaten, tied to his saddle, and had been healed by his ambitious second, Barthilas.

Realizing that the orc had saved him, Tirion set out and retraced his steps back to the tower. The orc Eitrigg told Tirion that, before the coming to Azeroth, the orcs had been a noble society rooted in shamanism. After the war, he had left the corrupt Horde. Tirion, seeing great honor in Eitrigg, promised to keep his existence a secret, returning to his people and informing them that the orc had been dealt with and was not a threat.

Barthilas was not so confident, and called Saidan Dathrohan to come and settle the matter himself. Dathrohan picked up the trail and led a group of hunters into the woods, where they found Eitrigg. During the orc's capture, Tirion fought against Dathrohan's men, prompting Barthilas to gleefully note that his actions were treasonous. Tirion was brought to Stratholme to stand trial.

Despite Karandra's pleas to forget his honor and tell the jury what they wanted to hear, Tirion, hoping to be an example to his son, told the court exactly what had happened. Ultimately, the jury of Admiral Daelin Proudmoore, Arch-Mage Antonidas, Archbishop Alonsus Faol, and Prince Arthas Menethil decided that since Tirion had assaulted Alliance soldiers, he could no longer be a member of the Knights of the Silver Hand and was doomed to exile. Uther the Lightbringer performed a ceremony to strip Tirion of his powers and sent him home to gather some supplies.

Desperate to prevent Eitrigg from being executed for war crimes, Tirion rode back to Stratholme, where he attacked Eitrigg's guards. Surprised, they still managed to subdue him, until a group of orcs stormed into the city. Tirion used the distraction to free Eitrigg and flee the city.

When they were in the wilds, Tirion saw that Eitrigg was near death, and did the only thing he could do; call upon the powers of the Light to heal the orc who had saved him. To his surprise, he still had the powers blessed by the Light and Eitrigg was saved.

They abruptly found themselves surrounded by orcs and a new Warchief, Thrall, who approached Eitrigg and invited him back into the Horde — which had since reverted back to its shamanistic roots once more. Eitrigg was thrilled to accept.

Tirion remained in Lordaeron, to watch his son Taelan be inducted into the Silver Hand. His son later became the lord of Mardenholde. Tirion's wife told his son that Tirion had died, and even took him to a false grave at the Undercroft, where Taelan buried the toy warhammer his father had given him in memory of his father.

See also: Of Blood and Honor

Exile and Return Tirion lived out his exile in a small farmstead, in the northwest of what became the Eastern Plaguelands, on the shores of the Thondroril River with his trusty horse, Mirador. During the Third War he often fought off the undead Scourge.

He was dismayed to find later that his son, Taelan, joined the Scarlet Crusade, and even became the highlord of that order. Nonetheless, he kept watching his son from afar, and even enlisted some adventurers to help him as he and a few Crusaders became trapped in the small village of Cinderhome, surrounded by Scourge forces who were interrupting the Crusade's attempt to re-settle the area.LoC 111 Later, Tirion turned to adventurers yet again to have them collect mementos of his son's past which finally enabled him to convince his son to leave the Crusade, only to see him killed in the attempt. Spurred by his son's death, Tirion resolved to reform the original Silver Hand as a force of good in the world.

 .... meet the rest of his continuing story in Wow, tbc and Wotlk.

----------

This is just an extract of the ... 65.000 pages of lore info on wowwiki.com and it is not even half a page of info on one of its thousands and thousands of  not even major NPC's in the game.

No need to say NOT ONE game will even come close lorewise to what Blizzard has created since 1992. Middle Earth looks like a small village compared to what Blizzard is creating.

But of course YOU and the rest of the young adoloscents on mmorpg.com (and Mark Jacobs of course) can do better, don't you?

and, how exactly does that allow me to conquer territory and build my own city in wow?

how does that allow me to have great armor (tier 1/2/3/4/5/6/7/8/etc) and not essentially look like all the other characters who have progressed as far as i have?

how does that allow me to be a rogue, who has some buffing/healing type powers, along with a couple of fireball type attacks, and the ability to use a shield, while commanding my vicious attack marmosets?  oh yeah, wow is the cookie cutter class/build game, right?

so where um, in all that lore, prior to tbc, were all the blue space aliens?  or is tbc wow's version of the movie, Highlander 2?

the op (original post) lamented that all these games are incredibly linear and everyone is a clone, and to summarize, the gameplay/experience is simply craptastic.

just because wow has millions, that does not mean any game copying wow will get those numbers.  that's something these people need to learn... wow had YEARS of blizznet, blizznet kiddies, blizznet players that grew up with blizznet and were now adults... cyber cafes and places where starcraft is STILL being played fanatically.... blizzard north had a MASSIVE following before WoW was released.

swg could have easily had those numbers at release.... if the people making that game had put in the effort that the blizzard north team had put into creating WoW.

for the record, i don't believe anyone associated with blizzard north, still works at blizzard.

Originally posted by Tatum

I'm surprised that people are actually pissed off by threads like this. 

I don't think anyone is pissed off by a thread like this so much as they're bored of the subject and tired of the endless QQ'ing from the so-called sandbox purists. Every thread like this is the same, and boils down to someone whining and bitching about how pretty much every game out there isn't allowing them to be the Epic Godlike Uber-hero they want to be, where every single thing they do affects and changes the world, and where the NPC's react to their every adventure telling them how great they are.

Originally posted by Bladin

Originally posted by Khalathwyr

Originally posted by Bladin

Originally posted by rageagainst

Originally posted by Bladin

Originally posted by rageagainst

Originally posted by Papadam

I hate metal bands for not making hip hop albums..

I hate comedians for not making action movies..

and I hate devs for not making the game i want to play

 

no less than 4 sandbox MMOs is supposed to release next year so what are you all whining about?

your analogies are flawed, we hate mmorpg devs for not make good MASSIVELY MULTIPLAYER ROLE PLAYING GAMES! We do NOT WANT single player online action games!

 

Too bad you and your type are not right.  You are not important, and just because you like that type of mmo, it's not your right/responsibility, or even justifiable to call what a mmorpg is.

His analogy is right.  That's exactly what you are asking. If you start defining mmos based on "no levels/classes"  "No quests" etc etc, then what exactly is a mmorpg?  IT's a empty world with developer creation tools.  Because if a developer adds anything for players to do, it's no longer sandbox in your opinion is it?

the action game thing is kindof over the top, and no classes/levels do not make a game a NON rpg, instead, it reinforces the "rpgness" of a game... but they aren't massively multiplayer most importantly, you can't tell me with a straight face that Wow (with a completely soloable 1-70 and instanced dungeons and instanced battlefields) is actually an mmo, neither can you say WAR (with its instanced pvp grind) is an mmo.

 

wow is a mmo.

So was Ultima Online when it launched and it had no levels and no quests as they are commonly done today in the follow the yellow brick road to each quest hub method. And it didn't have an empty feel because it didn't use that quest method. Developer content doesn't have to rely on the current crutch of quests like they do. Games like UO (no levels) and AC (had levels but didn't rely on them for progression) proved that.

Just saying that you don't have to have levels or quests (as they are done today) in order not to have an "empty world".

Let me ask you this.

You got freedom in your sandbox.  what are you doing?

Killing monsters

Killing Players

Crafting items

That's it.  The difference is, you can choose when to go do it, and where.

I never said AC or UO aren't mmos.  But let me state this.

If you take world of warcraft and

Remove Quests

Remove levels

Remove item progression

Remove Instances

Remove Battlegrounds

Remove faction alignment at creation

Remove classes and just let everyone access any of the talent trees(with spells that go along with the ones they want)

And how does it differ from UO?

It doesn't.

Don't you think it's odd that you strip tons of content and actual... stuff from wow, and it resembles a sandbox? There's a reason for that.  Because sandbox are empty games that players make fake content for.

So um, eve online has no content, other than player-made fake content?

Originally posted by Lidane

Originally posted by Tatum

I'm surprised that people are actually pissed off by threads like this. 

I don't think anyone is pissed off by a thread like this so much as they're bored of the subject and tired of the endless QQ'ing from the so-called sandbox purists. Every thread like this is the same, and boils down to someone whining and bitching about how pretty much every game out there isn't allowing them to be the Epic Godlike Uber-hero they want to be, where every single thing they do affects and changes the world, and where the NPC's react to their every adventure telling them how great they are.

LOL.. You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about at all. The whole point of what we want is NOT to be the hero, just to be an average joe. /sigh, you come here and whine about sandbox people and don't even know what you are talking about.

If you don't like these threads, it's as easy as not looking at them.

Originally posted by damian7

Originally posted by Bladin

Originally posted by Khalathwyr

Originally posted by Bladin

Originally posted by rageagainst

Originally posted by Bladin

Originally posted by rageagainst

Originally posted by Papadam

I hate metal bands for not making hip hop albums..

I hate comedians for not making action movies..

and I hate devs for not making the game i want to play

 

no less than 4 sandbox MMOs is supposed to release next year so what are you all whining about?

your analogies are flawed, we hate mmorpg devs for not make good MASSIVELY MULTIPLAYER ROLE PLAYING GAMES! We do NOT WANT single player online action games!

 

Too bad you and your type are not right.  You are not important, and just because you like that type of mmo, it's not your right/responsibility, or even justifiable to call what a mmorpg is.

His analogy is right.  That's exactly what you are asking. If you start defining mmos based on "no levels/classes"  "No quests" etc etc, then what exactly is a mmorpg?  IT's a empty world with developer creation tools.  Because if a developer adds anything for players to do, it's no longer sandbox in your opinion is it?

the action game thing is kindof over the top, and no classes/levels do not make a game a NON rpg, instead, it reinforces the "rpgness" of a game... but they aren't massively multiplayer most importantly, you can't tell me with a straight face that Wow (with a completely soloable 1-70 and instanced dungeons and instanced battlefields) is actually an mmo, neither can you say WAR (with its instanced pvp grind) is an mmo.

 

wow is a mmo.

So was Ultima Online when it launched and it had no levels and no quests as they are commonly done today in the follow the yellow brick road to each quest hub method. And it didn't have an empty feel because it didn't use that quest method. Developer content doesn't have to rely on the current crutch of quests like they do. Games like UO (no levels) and AC (had levels but didn't rely on them for progression) proved that.

Just saying that you don't have to have levels or quests (as they are done today) in order not to have an "empty world".

Let me ask you this.

You got freedom in your sandbox.  what are you doing?

Killing monsters

Killing Players

Crafting items

That's it.  The difference is, you can choose when to go do it, and where.

I never said AC or UO aren't mmos.  But let me state this.

If you take world of warcraft and

Remove Quests

Remove levels

Remove item progression

Remove Instances

Remove Battlegrounds

Remove faction alignment at creation

Remove classes and just let everyone access any of the talent trees(with spells that go along with the ones they want)

And how does it differ from UO?

It doesn't.

Don't you think it's odd that you strip tons of content and actual... stuff from wow, and it resembles a sandbox? There's a reason for that.  Because sandbox are empty games that players make fake content for.

 

 

So um, eve online has no content, other than player-made fake content?

 

 

Don't even bother arguing with Bladin. He doesn't understand the appeal of a sandbox. Choices scare him. Creating our own content is just insane. He can't imagine an MMO world where you aren't a class a developer designs for you and you don't respawn unscathed 15 seconds after you die, and nothing you say or do will ever change his linear little heart.

Good old table top looks mighty fun to me ATM.....

Well said OP!

Originally posted by Abrahmm

The whole point of what we want is NOT to be the hero, just to be an average joe.

That doesn't make a damn bit of sense. If you just want to be an average Joe, then why the hell would you spend $50 on a game box and pay $15 a month in subscription fees? That's stupid. Just go outside and live a normal life.

These games are about an escape from the normal. They're entertainment, and a way to unwind after a long day of work and school. Who the hell wants to just be a normal Joe in an MMO?

Originally posted by Lidane

Originally posted by Abrahmm

The whole point of what we want is NOT to be the hero, just to be an average joe.

That doesn't make a damn bit of sense. If you just want to be an average Joe, then why the hell would you spend $50 on a game box and pay $15 a month in subscription fees? That's stupid. Just go outside and live a normal life.

These games are about an escape from the normal. They're entertainment, and a way to unwind after a long day of work and school. Who the hell wants to just be a normal Joe in an MMO?

 

LOL! Good point. Why QQ for the power of a sandbox only to be an average joe? You know you want to be god like creatures that thirst for griefing players above all. E-Peen Xtremeism to the fullest. Average Joe my ass!

In this box, only one story can be told.....Grief! That story has a small following whether you like it or not.

Originally posted by Cablespider

LOL! Why QQ for the power of a sandbox only to be an average joe?

Exactly!

If the whole point of a sandbox game is to be in a world where there are no levels, no classes, and no linear structure, where skill is king and where your actions directly affect the world around you, why the hell would you waste that just to be Average Joe #1136137651?  I can be the Average Joe in real life. I don't need a game for that, much less a game that requires a monthly fee.

Originally posted by Lidane

Originally posted by Cablespider

LOL! Why QQ for the power of a sandbox only to be an average joe?

Exactly!

If the whole point of a sandbox game is to be in a world where there are no levels, no classes, and no linear structure, where skill is king and where your actions directly affect the world around you, why the hell would you waste that just to be Average Joe #1136137651?  I can be the Average Joe in real life. I don't need a game for that, much less a game that requires a monthly fee.

Ever thought about people who are NOT average Joe in real life and are pleased to be that in a virtual space like MMORPG, I am sorry but I really see a hugh difference in the way people view sandboxers, as a sandboxer I want freedom, in a single player game I want to be the hero, in a MMORPG of course I could become some form of hero among my friends/guild/clan or just to the random person I saved, but I could also enjoy to furnish my newly made/crafted or bought house, and NO I do not want to play The Sims, but I do want to live the life of my character in that virtual world that IS different then the real world, there for The Sims do not interest me one bit due to it being everything a person can do and achieve in real life, MMORPG however place you in a complete different world/planet dimension. And like The Sims I also have a dislike of games like Second Life or Entropia.

Also IF I ever  feel this need to uhum.... "proof " my skills I rather jump into one of the multiplayer FPS games.

And maybe thats just it as the gamer I am I play plenty of games from different genre's and MMORPG use to be that genre of games that for once you didn't NEED to be that Hero, but you could choose to be Average Joe, you weren't forced to only do the things developers have planned out for you to do as in linear stories, again plenty of single player RPG/FPS games for me to enjoy that offer me tons of linear rush type gameplay, MMORPG never where that rush type of games, unfortunately many people have made these games carry the same rush as to most it's all about end game and how to get their the fastest and most efficient way instead of enjoying the journey and totally forgetting about getting leveled eventually you always gain xp, so I still do not understand those people who soul purpose is to lvl in a MMORPG, leveling should be a side effect, these day's it seem to be main factor of many playing these games and if you not lvl up fast enough most of these new people will laugh at you if you have not reached cap lvl after months and months. Again these laughing people simply are not seeing what we are seeing in how I play MMORPG and I definitely play this genre totally different then I play my FPS/RTS or other type of game as to me each game I enter I enter with a different playing attitude.

OP nice post and I fully understand what you are saying, shame many don't..........

Originally posted by Cablespider

LOL! Good point. Why QQ for the power of a sandbox only to be an average joe? You know you want to be god like creatures that thirst for griefing players above all. E-Peen Xtremeism to the fullest. Average Joe my ass!

In this box, only one story can be told.....Grief! That story has a small following whether you like it or not.

Spoken with truth.  Most open sandbox games are littered with griefers who have figured out how to be gods in the game.  Most of these open games require very little teamwork, because people are able to be their own tank, healer and caster all in one.  I prefer the class based games, even though they restrict freedom in choice, they do promote tons of cooperation and teamplay compared to their counters.  I have a feeling that Darkfall is not going to have much in the way of promoting organized teamplay.  It will probably be a bunch of soloist like UO pwning people weaker than them.

The only open game I have seen with lots of teamwork is Eve.  But even in that game, a large sum of players are pretty much following 1 mega corporation player with an ego the size of Rome.

<quote>- I am sorry that I dont enjoy being a delivery boy or a killer hired to perform genocide on some insignificant creature in the world. Those things really should mean alot to me. But they dont.</quote>

Best line out of the OP's post.  I hate the random genocide of pigs these games promote.  At least Warhammer gives me a damn good reason for the genocide.

While it is true that the current crop of sandbox games do little to discourage griefers,, I don't think this is the reason most of their fans play them.

I play sandbox games like Eve because I don't want to be the average Joe either, which is why people who don't want to be the 'average Joe' and then play some linear themepark game puzzle me as these kinds  of games have the exact same sort of enforced mediocrity that's creeping it's way through IRL society.  The game tells you you're special and gives you cookies, but in the end you're just like everyone else, a (happy) cog in the machine with nothing meaningful to differentiate yourself.

In a freeform sandbox-style game you're free to choose your own path.  While I don't like griefers either I think the freedom to be a griefer is very important, so long as there's ways of dealing with people who want to play like that.  I think it's become a litmus test of sorts - Can you be a complete douchebag and not break the game and not force everyone else to be a douchebag because it's the only way to deal with you and/or get things done?

Now, don't get me wrong, I like good themepark games too.  Hell, I played WoW for the better part of three years.  But I never made the mistake of thinking that I was somehow 'special' in the game world by virtue of having done a lot of quests and seen a lot of content.  I was one of the most respected healers on my server (first as a priest, then as a shaman in TBC) but that fact had absolutely nothing to do with the game itself, rather, how I chose to play it.

To me, it seems, the sandbox concept is either someone you 'get' in the first five minutes, or you don't and you log out and never come back.  There's nothing wrong with that - everyone has different tastes and no one game can or should try to appeal to everyone.  I know after I quit WoW and was bored and looking for a new game, that the first time I logged into Eve, I didn't have a clue what I was doing but I did find that I was in a game with no script and only minimal rules.  That appealed to me.  It doesn't to most people.  That's fine -  different strokes for different folks.  Like I've said before, this genre needs to diversify, there's plenty of room for everyone if devs would pull their heads out of their collective asses and stop trying to make WoW clones or expecting us to pay for beta versions.

Originally posted by Reklaw

Ever thought about people who are NOT average Joe in real life and are pleased to be that in a virtual space like MMORPG,

The point is, for most people, MMO's are an escape from the normal. You're playing in worlds that have Orcs, Elves, Trolls, any number of fantasy creatures, and magic. Or you're flying around a city as a superhero, or playing in a futuristic sci-fi world set in the far reaches of space. Normal doesn't exist in an MMO. They're fantasy worlds for a reason.

Quite frankly, it's laughable to want to be normal in a fantasy game. No one, even in tabletop or pen & paper gaming, wants to be the normal dude just along for the ride. They want to be the hero of the story-- the brave knight or rogue with a heart of gold that saves the world. Or they want to be the villain, leaving a trail of death and destruction in their wake. Normal is boring. Who wants that in a game, especially if you have to pay to play it every month?

I am sorry but I really see a hugh difference in the way people view sandboxers, as a sandboxer I want freedom, in a single player game I want to be the hero, in a MMORPG of course I could become some form of hero among my friends/guild/clan or just to the random person I saved, but I could also enjoy to furnish my newly made/crafted or bought house, and NO I do not want to play The Sims, but I do want to live the life of my character in that virtual world that IS different then the real world, there for The Sims do not interest me one bit due to it being everything a person can do and achieve in real life, MMORPG however place you in a complete different world/planet dimension. And like The Sims I also have a dislike of games like Second Life or Entropia.

I've had houses in different games, and have spent time decorating them just the way I want. I've done the RP thing. I've done crafting and spent hours in the tunnels and in the Bazaar back in EQ1 selling things I'd made or found in my travels.  I've immersed myself in the world I'm playing in, at least in my own mind, for the time that I'm in game. However, over the years, I've gotten to the stage where these are just games.

Sure, it's nice to take my little Hobbit into LOTRO and putter around the neighborhood where my house is, or spend time doing crafting and other things to get my reputation up and my house looking the way I want it. I also like taking my heroes around Paragon City and fighting crime or taking my Warrior Priest and taking her through WAR, but in the end, the games are just a diversion, and a nice way to unwind after a long day, and to blow off steam. 

Also IF I ever  feel this need to uhum.... "proof " my skills I rather jump into one of the multiplayer FPS games.

But what's the point of a level-less and class-less system that is skill based if you're not going to prove your skills in an MMO? That makes zero sense. If, as a sandboxer,  you want a game to not have any of the other structures that most MMO's have, and you want it to be skill based,  then it stands to reason that part of that equation is proving your skills to everyone else and showing how Epic and Uber you are. The idea of ditching classes and levels and relying solely on skill, only to not prove your skills makes no sense.

 MMORPG never where that rush type of games

Of course they were. Even back when I played EQ1 there were people who would get together as a guild and PL their friends up to raiding levels as fast as possible just to get to what they saw as the good stuff. The early levels, or making your way across the world? Pfft. It was always about getting to the big, epic fights with the dragons and the gods. Why? Because people want to be the hero. It has been that way since the beginning.
 

unfortunately many people have made these games carry the same rush as to most it's all about end game and how to get their the fastest and most efficient way instead of enjoying the journey and totally forgetting about getting leveled

None of that is new. It's been that way since EQ1 launched, and it will be that way until after the last MMO shuts off its servers forever. People play in their own ways, and for many folks, that involves getting to the high levels as fast as possible and getting to the raids and the epic fights so they can be the hero.

eventually you always gain xp, so I still do not understand those people who soul purpose is to lvl in a MMORPG, leveling should be a side effect, these day's it seem to be main factor of many playing these games and if you not lvl up fast enough most of these new people will laugh at you if you have not reached cap lvl after months and months.

For some folks, an MMO doesn't start until you're raiding. For others, it starts at level 1. It's all in how you play the game, but if you're looking to others for validation of your playstyle,  I can see why that would bother you. Personally, whether I'm in WAR, LOTRO, or CoH/V, I don't give a damn what others think of my playstyle or what level I am. I just go in, play the way I want, do what I want, hang with my friends in the game, and enjoy myself. The rest is details. Who cares what a total stranger thinks of how I play? I'm playing these games to enjoy myself, not get caught up in whatever petty drama someone wants to start because I'm not at max level and they are. 

Again these laughing people simply are not seeing what we are seeing in how I play MMORPG and I definitely play this genre totally different then I play my FPS/RTS or other type of game as to me each game I enter I enter with a different playing attitude.

I don't play an MMO the way I play an RTS or a console RPG, but at the same time, I don't treat an MMO that much differently, either. Sure, it's a game with a persistent world and lots to offer in terms of quests, crafting, and other things to do, but it's still just a game.

Originally posted by Lidane

Originally posted by Reklaw

Ever thought about people who are NOT average Joe in real life and are pleased to be that in a virtual space like MMORPG,

The point is, for most people, MMO's are an escape from the normal. You're playing in worlds that have Orcs, Elves, Trolls, any number of fantasy creatures, and magic. Or you're flying around a city as a superhero, or playing in a futuristic sci-fi world set in the far reaches of space. Normal doesn't exist in an MMO. They're fantasy worlds for a reason.

Quite frankly, it's laughable to want to be normal in a fantasy game. No one, even in tabletop or pen & paper gaming, wants to be the normal dude just along for the ride. They want to be the hero of the story-- the brave knight or rogue with a heart of gold that saves the world. Or they want to be the villain, leaving a trail of death and destruction in their wake. Normal is boring. Who wants that in a game, especially if you have to pay to play it every month?

You see IF and that is IF a MMORPG would indeed provide me with being a Hero that saves the World then of course who wouldn't that?, but you see I can not name one MMORPG that actually let me do that apart from single player RPG's again in my own opinion on how I would view a hero, avarage Joe is far more unique in a MMORPG as like you said  "most" for some reason want to be that hero where you end up with numerous of identical "heroes" who have done the excact same thing as hero nr.1, and this makes people feel heroic?

I am sorry but I really see a hugh difference in the way people view sandboxers, as a sandboxer I want freedom, in a single player game I want to be the hero, in a MMORPG of course I could become some form of hero among my friends/guild/clan or just to the random person I saved, but I could also enjoy to furnish my newly made/crafted or bought house, and NO I do not want to play The Sims, but I do want to live the life of my character in that virtual world that IS different then the real world, there for The Sims do not interest me one bit due to it being everything a person can do and achieve in real life, MMORPG however place you in a complete different world/planet dimension. And like The Sims I also have a dislike of games like Second Life or Entropia.

I've had houses in different games, and have spent time decorating them just the way I want. I've done the RP thing. I've done crafting and spent hours in the tunnels and in the Bazaar back in EQ1 selling things I'd made or found in my travels.  I've immersed myself in the world I'm playing in, at least in my own mind, for the time that I'm in game. However, over the years, I've gotten to the stage where these are just games.

Your meaning? sorry but am I saying I do not see MMORPG as being games?

Sure, it's nice to take my little Hobbit into LOTRO and putter around the neighborhood where my house is, or spend time doing crafting and other things to get my reputation up and my house looking the way I want it. I also like taking my heroes around Paragon City and fighting crime or taking my Warrior Priest and taking her through WAR, but in the end, the games are just a diversion, and a nice way to unwind after a long day, and to blow off steam. 

Geuss you might have completly misunderstand what I meant

Also IF I ever  feel this need to uhum.... "proof " my skills I rather jump into one of the multiplayer FPS games.

But what's the point of a level-less and class-less system that is skill based if you're not going to prove your skills in an MMO? That makes zero sense. If, as a sandboxer,  you want a game to not have any of the other structures that most MMO's have, and you want it to be skill based,  then it stands to reason that part of that equation is proving your skills to everyone else and showing how Epic and Uber you are. The idea of ditching classes and levels and relying solely on skill, only to not prove your skills makes no sense.

You reaction to my personal opinion makes no sence,  "IF I" which means me myself and I feels this need, which does not mean you or anyone else should feel the same way, seem you have a problem understand my own opinion, I was NOT talking a making a point or no point of a lvl-less and class-less system.

 MMORPG never where that rush type of games TO ME and those I played with < Fixed

Of course they were. Even back when I played EQ1 there were people who would get together as a guild and PL their friends up to raiding levels as fast as possible just to get to what they saw as the good stuff. The early levels, or making your way across the world? Pfft. It was always about getting to the big, epic fights with the dragons and the gods. Why? Because people want to be the hero. It has been that way since the beginning.

I saw that period different, I saw lots of people hanging out in groups trying to slay that dragon and felt great when as a group you accomplished it, it was that group dynamic, of course when in a group dynamic there are so many way of playstyle people can have and sure many people always had this rush feel to them even back then, but today it has become a majority for "most""  in my experiance to rush in a genre of games where it is NOT needed, this again does not mean I am right and everyone should play it MY WAY, NO, I am just saying that TO ME I see no need to be cap lvl asap, I don't understand those who do need to rush to the cap lvl, but again that does not mean I condome them for their playstyle, to me it means more that people have fun regardless what way, but it doesn't mean I can not discus my viewpoint on it.
 

unfortunately many people have made these games carry the same rush as to most it's all about end game and how to get their the fastest and most efficient way instead of enjoying the journey and totally forgetting about getting leveled

None of that is new. It's been that way since EQ1 launched, and it will be that way until after the last MMO shuts off its servers forever. People play in their own ways, and for many folks, that involves getting to the high levels as fast as possible and getting to the raids and the epic fights so they can be the hero.

Yet I still don't see anything heroic about becoming cap lvl as so many reach that stage, so this is NOT me saying it can't be fun, cause I am 100% sure that to many it is fun. I mean when a game is lvl based who wouldn't enjoy a new lvl, but to me it doesn't give me a heroic feel but I only see new oppertunity's open up with a new lvl which again is FUN but not heroic TO ME

eventually you always gain xp, so I still do not understand those people who soul purpose is to lvl in a MMORPG, leveling should be a side effect, these day's it seem to be main factor of many playing these games and if you not lvl up fast enough most of these new people will laugh at you if you have not reached cap lvl after months and months.

For some folks, an MMO doesn't start until you're raiding. For others, it starts at level 1. It's all in how you play the game, but if you're looking to others for validation of your playstyle,  I can see why that would bother you. Personally, whether I'm in WAR, LOTRO, or CoH/V, I don't give a damn what others think of my playstyle or what level I am. I just go in, play the way I want, do what I want, hang with my friends in the game, and enjoy myself. The rest is details. Who cares what a total stranger thinks of how I play? I'm playing these games to enjoy myself, not get caught up in whatever petty drama someone wants to start because I'm not at max level and they are. 

Lol doesn't effect me, what made you think that? you might have slightly misread my meaning.

Again these laughing people simply are not seeing what we are seeing in how I play MMORPG and I definitely play this genre totally different then I play my FPS/RTS or other type of game as to me each game I enter I enter with a different playing attitude.

I don't play an MMO the way I play an RTS or a console RPG, but at the same time, I don't treat an MMO that much differently, either. Sure, it's a game with a persistent world and lots to offer in terms of quests, crafting, and other things to do, but it's still just a game.

That is you and what I said is me. Yet YOU tell ME that people can have different playstyles? perhaps you reading to much into what I wrote, or perhaps I didn't make myself clear in a not native language

 

 

You forgot, "I'm sorry I left DAoC for WAR, DAoC was 1000x better."

 Cool original post.

Try EVE, it's not perfect but you will get that rush you want when you jump into enemy system camped by a swarm of hostiles and you will weap silently once they take away your faction gear you worked for for 3 months in less then 10 seconds.

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Originally posted by Thralia
could not agree more on the warhammer thing and many things.
i myself quit warhammer after first month.

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I didn't even make it that long. TBH I expected so much more from Mythic.... DAOC was phenomenal in it's day... Warhammer PALES by comparison.

OP hit it spot on.