WAR is a positive experiment in MMO-land, and I applaud it.

The graphics are great, IMO, and the races and classes - in look and feel - flavorful. Despite the whines, I feel class balance is not too bad at all. And combat, while nothing spectacular, is fluid enough and can be fun with similalry matched teams.

Overall, there is a lot to like here.

But (the but was inevitable) there are major shortfalls with the current state of the game.

- PVE-land, beyond early levels, is empty. Even on the fuller servers you can gallop around all day and see no-one else out there in T4 pve land. Good luck trying to get people to do high level PQs...

- Scenarios are OK, but repetitive, bland and pretty simple. They are fine as an occasional bit of quick fun, but are rather featureless, and pale when compared, for example, to the WoW BGs in terms of gameplay. (That's clearly my opinion... but the latest keep siege bg in wow is far more exciting than anything on offer here). They remain the main source of xp/renown, and as such are disappointing. Despite some improvement, you will still mostly end up in the same one or two scenarios every time.

- ORVR has improved considerably, but the keeps are basically one size fits all (they all play exactly the same, have exactly the same order of events - beat down a door, beat down another one, then rush up a ramp) and offer very little scope for any strategic or tactical gameplay. Pour in the numbers to bash down the door, guard the postern, possibly cut off the main road. That's really about it. There is only one way in.

Battlefield objectives could be fun (much more varied terrain) but people dont really feel they are worth fighting for, so instead you get the round and round the garden syndrome. It's all rather featureless. You imagine there could be so much more random craziness in the lakes. Smaller scale objectives. Triggerable events. Destructible or interactive scenery. But its pretty feature free right now.

- The PVE sides are kept apart, and the lakes are often hard to get into outside one or two points. For a WAR game, its surprisingly ghettoised. Almost never do you find a small skirmish.. its zerg v zerg or nothing. That is a great shame.

- Gear at end game is very linear and choice free. You need the lesser ward set. Then you need the greater ward set. Everyone chases the same stuff. And it all drops from NPCs, pvp and renown is not enough to progress.

- The contribution system doesn't work.

- The economy is bland.

- There are no guild halls, or other social places to give a sense of pride and belonging. There are no gathering points in the cities, no places to establish a sense of strong realm identity.

- There is not much additional fun stuff, the kind of thing that makes MMOs come alive. No LOTRO music system. No WOW toys and pets. No COX costume shops. No real crafting.

What this adds up to in my humble opinion is a game which still needs a lot of development, and is currently not worth a monthly fee. It was worth the box price. Just not sure what I am paying for on a monthly basis quite yet.

I do think it is one of the better starts for what could eventually be a great game. I will be delighted to pay the fee once it gets over a few humps.

I agree, I'm on the buddy pass now and having fun but it just doesn't have that long term appeal for me personally. The game has much potential and maybe when they throw in some more content I'll subscribe to it.

I agree basically with the OP.

Isn't  "potential" usually the kiss of death?

Originally posted by gestalt11

Isn't  "potential" usually the kiss of death?

sometimes but i think enough ppl are finding it fun right now that it wont get closed down (at least not for a few years)

It's got 'potential' but several problems. For me the biggest problem was that the only 'classes' I liked to play were in racial choices I detested and couldn't enjoy. I really tried to like some of the others but just couldn't enjoy the playstyle of the classes in the races I really wanted to play.

That was killer #1

Killer #2 was the incredible imbalance in PVP land.

It's still a good game, many people will (and do) love it. But I personally wound up cancelling within the 1st month of buying and have since uninstalled the game from my system with no intention of re-installing unless they do a 'come back and check it out for free' period sometime down the road.

It's fun for me. More than any other mmo I played. Sometimes I think I must be hallucinating and playing some other game because when I read "PvE in upper tiers empty" I just reflect that I've just logged out of 2+ hrs of CH 22 Public Questing (that's rank 40) followed by a few scenarios (not Serpent's Passage lol) to top off the evening.

Dunno maybe I'm really insane... Maybe it's just this weird dream I have.. I keep making alts because the classes are all so interesting to play and I actually have no problem with open RvR. Dunno maybe I should get some professional help that'll make me understand what is obviously common knowledge here.

Yeah I somewhat agree with your post. I had initially a blast the with PvP leveling in scenarios and PQs but now that I am close to T3 I am starting to feel like: Whats it all about?

Doing scenarios over and over is fun but has it a point? Feels more like a CS session after a while. Mostly I feel this is because death doesnt matter, even use it to travel quicker sometimes, and winning a scenario or taking over a battlekeep (or losing it) really doesnt matter much as well.

They need to make these things matter and also the issues like you said fixed. Or people will start to wonder why they are just not playing a good FPS instead of this because the game is starting to feel more and more like a FPS game which can be loads of fun but after you turn of your computer there is nothing really left of your game session.

I've got so bored I decided to re-sub just before christmas and try a complete random class. I'm now in love with the game I guess it's strange as I was a 'fanboy' before it came out and when it did I hated it. If anyone is thinking about trying it I would say do so as if you do like PVP with a slight mix of PVE then the game is for you.

Originally posted by markoraos

It's fun for me. More than any other mmo I played. Sometimes I think I must be hallucinating and playing some other game because when I read "PvE in upper tiers empty" I just reflect that I've just logged out of 2+ hrs of CH 22 Public Questing (that's rank 40) followed by a few scenarios (not Serpent's Passage lol) to top off the evening.

Dunno maybe I'm really insane... Maybe it's just this weird dream I have.. I keep making alts because the classes are all so interesting to play and I actually have no problem with open RvR. Dunno maybe I should get some professional help that'll make me understand what is obviously common knowledge here.

It's not a wierd dream.  Most people playing the game feel the same way.  The game is gaining momentum and the "pro" bashers are out in en masse.

It *would* be rather sad if the people who still played the game wouldn't actually like the game so there's litte to argue with there ^^

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Despite the whines, I feel class balance is not too bad at all. And combat, while nothing spectacular, is fluid enough and can be fun with similalry matched teams.

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There hasn't been an unusual amount of class imbalance issues reported and the combat has been one of the most praised (by players and media) features of the game. These forums are full of players saying things like "best fun I have had in any game" and "I dont normally like pvp but I do in this game" when referring to the combat. They're right. The combat in WAR is good.

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- PVE-land, beyond early levels, is empty. Even on the fuller servers you can gallop around all day and see no-one else out there in T4 pve land. Good luck trying to get people to do high level PQs...

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You can't gallop around anywhere for 2 minutes on the highest population servers and not find people doing PVE.

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- Scenarios are OK, but repetitive, bland and pretty simple. They are fine as an occasional bit of quick fun, but are rather featureless, and pale when compared, for example, to the WoW BGs in terms of gameplay. (That's clearly my opinion... but the latest keep siege bg in wow is far more exciting than anything on offer here). They remain the main source of xp/renown, and as such are disappointing. Despite some improvement, you will still mostly end up in the same one or two scenarios every time.

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Scenarios aren't WoW BGs and aren't meant to be. They serve two different purposes in their respective games. Its like comparing a FPS CTF map with a castle siege in Lineage II. WAR has the strategic RVR in terms of controlling battlefield objectives, keeps, and cities but it also has instant combat scenarios as icing on the cake. Your trying to compare the WoW cake to the WAR icing and it makes no sense.

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- ORVR has improved considerably, but the keeps are basically one size fits all (they all play exactly the same, have exactly the same order of events - beat down a door, beat down another one, then rush up a ramp) and offer very little scope for any strategic or tactical gameplay. Pour in the numbers to bash down the door, guard the postern, possibly cut off the main road. That's really about it. There is only one way in.

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I agree, the RVR has gotten alot better now that there are more people in the RVR zones. Keeps in WAR are more like RTS objectives. The game's mechanics almost ensures ephemeral ownership of battlefield objectives, especially on competitive servers. This is by design and is one of the main factors promoting the constant warfare in WAR.

BTW, as far as I know all keeps require only one door to be knocked down during the process of taking a keep. The fact that you don't even know that once again makes me wonder if you have really played this game much at all.

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Battlefield objectives could be fun (much more varied terrain) but people dont really feel they are worth fighting for, so instead you get the round and round the garden syndrome. It's all rather featureless. You imagine there could be so much more random craziness in the lakes. Smaller scale objectives. Triggerable events. Destructible or interactive scenery. But its pretty feature free right now.

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There is alot of action against the battlefield objectives these days and its trivial to take the lesser objectives with a party or less. How much smaller scale do you want to go? Also, there are warbands roaming the RvR areas constantly since the last patch. Clearly, they find the battlefield objectives worth fighting for. Especially, since thats how some of the best gear is now aquired.

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- The PVE sides are kept apart, and the lakes are often hard to get into outside one or two points. For a WAR game, its surprisingly ghettoised. Almost never do you find a small skirmish.. its zerg v zerg or nothing. That is a great shame.

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It's almost impossible -NOT- to find small skirmishes. Patrol the RVR zones and you will find 1v1 and party size pvp opportunities routinely. I spent most of last night screwing around on an alt fighting party-size and smaller Order elements outside of Nordland.

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- Gear at end game is very linear and choice free. You need the lesser ward set. Then you need the greater ward set. Everyone chases the same stuff. And it all drops from NPCs, pvp and renown is not enough to progress.

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Gear is easy to come by in this game so the point is a nonpoint. This game was designed to be friendly to the casual player. You are not going to be severely disadvantaged by a gear disparity unless you want to be for some reason. The game mechanics make players mostly self sustaining.

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- There are no guild halls, or other social places to give a sense of pride and belonging. There are no gathering points in the cities, no places to establish a sense of strong realm identity.

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Guilds have cloaks and standards. The fact that there are only two sides means that you always have allies. The game mechanics make it easy to group up and do things together. Most organized guilds are operating in vent/ts servers anyway. All that said, I agree that guilds need to be enhanced in this game. It's the nature of humans beings to organize ourselves into small social groups. WAR takes a more communal approach in promoting the Realm, sometimes at the expense of the guild. This is of course by design. But, I still think over time you will see more unifying clan mechanics added to the game.

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- There is not much additional fun stuff, the kind of thing that makes MMOs come alive. No LOTRO music system. No WOW toys and pets. No COX costume shops. No real crafting.
What this adds up to in my humble opinion is a game which still needs a lot of development, and is currently not worth a monthly fee. It was worth the box price. Just not sure what I am paying for on a monthly basis quite yet.

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The game is doing great and is improving at a rapid pace. The game has received mostly excellent reviews and has already won multiple "game of the year" awards. Thats not happening because it isn't fun to play or people don't feel its worth a monthly subscription. Mythic has made a game that is gaining traction and as long as they keep improving the game and adding content that people want to play its only going to continue to grow.

http://goty.gamespy.com/2008/special/13.html
http://bestof.ign.com/2008/pc/5.html

http://goty.gamespy.com/2008/pc/10.html

http://www.g4tv.com/xplay/articles/65799/XPlay_Best_of_2008_Best_MMO.html#bestof2008

http://www.gamefocus.ca/?nav=article&did=366

Bottom line is that it is up to each person to decide what is, or is not, worth a sub fee for them. I have played this game in closed beta and launch for well over a year now and I really enjoy the game. Then again, Phoenix Throne is an awesome server right now. I have four alts I can play or I can sit on my Rank 40 Renown Rank 56 Rune Priest.

I love the game.  For those that dont, I hope you find one you enjoy !!

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BTW, as far as I know all keeps require only one door to be knocked down during the process of taking a keep. The fact that you don't even know that once again makes me wonder if you have really played this game much at all.

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Blaad,

After reading the OP's post, which is clearly NOT a bash (he goes out of his way to say some very GOOD things about WAR imo) you posted this blurb with a straight face? Or did you squirm a bit just before hitting "Enter"?

Honestly, it looks as if he's way more neutral about Warhammer than you are being. His review wasn't venomous or fanny, it was actually one of the best impartial reviews I've seen anyone give about Warhammer to date... pros and cons.

You seriously doubt the OP really played this game much at all because he may or may not have added an extra door to a keep? You yourself even post above "as far as I know" regarding the keep door. That's not exactly a definitive answer for someone who's played the game a LOT, is it? He's going off memory after just leaving Warhammer and you've assaulted countless keeps and played a lot. Yet "as far as you know"... which is it? One door or 'maybe' more? Are you certain?

At the risk of appearing fanboish, you probably should reread his post as a whole and don't try to nitpick it every syllable.

Originally posted by Blaad

Originally posted by markoraos

It's fun for me. More than any other mmo I played. Sometimes I think I must be hallucinating and playing some other game because when I read "PvE in upper tiers empty" I just reflect that I've just logged out of 2+ hrs of CH 22 Public Questing (that's rank 40) followed by a few scenarios (not Serpent's Passage lol) to top off the evening.

Dunno maybe I'm really insane... Maybe it's just this weird dream I have.. I keep making alts because the classes are all so interesting to play and I actually have no problem with open RvR. Dunno maybe I should get some professional help that'll make me understand what is obviously common knowledge here.

 

It's not a wierd dream.  Most people playing the game feel the same way.  The game is gaining momentum and the "pro" bashers are out in en masse.

I'm with Markoraos on this as well.

I don't have a level 40 yet, because I've had difficulty deciding which career I like best and want to play endgame (I have 5 that are level 20+, with my T4's at 35 and 34).  The careers are all a lot of fun to play, and PvP in the game is definitely designed with group play in mind.

I've also rarely had a problem with PvE.  It's funny, but I think that because WAR is considered a PvP game, the kneejerk opinion out there was that "well, the PvE must be horrible".  In my opinion, PvE in WAR isn't any worse than what you find in other games, and the PQ's are a nice addition to the MMO space that will likely be copied by future games.

If nothing else, high level PQ's are often available since they help earn VP's to lock a T4 zone - I did a couple hours of PQ'ing last night in Dragonwake for that very purpose.

I also have no problem finding oRvR, but that might be a function of server selection.  I play on Ostermark, where oRvR happens very, very frequently.  Yesterday was an all day event in both T4 and T3, and it was a blast.

I do agree with the OP on some points, and that WAR does have some room for improvement, or some additions that could be made to make it even more fun.  But, I do think WAR has had a great start, and is definitely worth paying a subscription for right now.

im finding it fun now again..its got all the pvp i need. why play another mmo that makes pve for 60 levels so you can compete in pvp. war lets me jump right in, and fight from lvl 1 and thats why i like it.

Originally posted by gestalt11

Isn't  "potential" usually the kiss of death?

Only if the word "unrealized" is before it.

Originally posted by markoraos

It's fun for me. More than any other mmo I played. Sometimes I think I must be hallucinating and playing some other game because when I read "PvE in upper tiers empty" I just reflect that I've just logged out of 2+ hrs of CH 22 Public Questing (that's rank 40) followed by a few scenarios (not Serpent's Passage lol) to top off the evening.

Dunno maybe I'm really insane... Maybe it's just this weird dream I have.. I keep making alts because the classes are all so interesting to play and I actually have no problem with open RvR. Dunno maybe I should get some professional help that'll make me understand what is obviously common knowledge here.

This is indeed another major design flaw in the game. You are not hallucinating, but the end game experience from server to server varies so much depending on server population that you can, and indeed many do, experience a totally different gaming experience to others. It is a total lottery and it's not uncommon for people to switch from server to server 3 - 4 times  in search of a good one and then hope it stays stable. The expectations and then reality of the amount of servers at release didn't quite match, which made a bad design flaw even more visible.

Originally posted by Raztor

Originally posted by markoraos

It's fun for me. More than any other mmo I played. Sometimes I think I must be hallucinating and playing some other game because when I read "PvE in upper tiers empty" I just reflect that I've just logged out of 2+ hrs of CH 22 Public Questing (that's rank 40) followed by a few scenarios (not Serpent's Passage lol) to top off the evening.

Dunno maybe I'm really insane... Maybe it's just this weird dream I have.. I keep making alts because the classes are all so interesting to play and I actually have no problem with open RvR. Dunno maybe I should get some professional help that'll make me understand what is obviously common knowledge here.

This is indeed another major design flaw in the game. You are not hallucinating, but the end game experience from server to server varies so much depending on server population that you can, and indeed many do, experience a totally different gaming experience to others. It is a total lottery and it's not uncommon for people to switch from server to server 3 - 4 times  in search of a good one and then hope it stays stable. The expectations and then reality of the amount of servers at release didn't quite match, which made a bad design flaw even more visible.

While I agree that server population and realm balance are important in WAR, I disagree with your use of hyperbole, that server selection is a "total lottery".  The well populated and balanced servers are well known.  Why attempt to mislead?

I also think you greatly exaggerate when claiming that it's "not uncommon for people to switch from server to server 3-4 times", and I believe you do so in an attempt to make a point pursuant to your agenda.  I disagree, and think it is in fact uncommon for people to change servers that frequently.  The game is only 3.5 months old, so suggesting that type of transient behavior is conducive toward a search for stability is something of an oxymoron, don't you think?