Originally posted by GrayGhost79

Originally posted by xzyax

Originally posted by downtoearth

Originally posted by Agricola1

Originally posted by downtoearth

Originally posted by Agricola1

Right now it's not hard because there's hardly anyone outside the "Aventurine circle of trust" playing Beta! Besides how would they prosecute a Chinese player? All they could do is find out who it was and ban thier IP, which let's face it is a minor deterent at best! For a proper closed Beta it would be too difficult to pinpoint who breaks an NDA if they just black out certain stuff in screenshots/videos, but this isn't a proper closed Beta in my opinion.

 

umm actully the nda ha s a bit mroe than just an ip ban it doesnt spicify it tho aventurine isnt messing with leakers wtf the point of having an nda if they dont enforce it?

 

Well say I live in China and break the NDA, what is a 20-30 man team of sem-pro code crunchers gonna do about it? They're gonna ban my IP and kick me out of Beta, nothing else. Even larger companies do the same, unless you have a link to an NDA breaker leaking Bets screenshots or videos getting prosecuted in a court of law for breaking the contract?

 

the contract/nda places you under greek law    

 

That would be unenforceable in every country except maybe the EU.

 

For it to be enforceable outside of the EU they would have had to have every country that they were trying to enforce it with look at it before-hand and then approve it.  This would have had to be done at the state level, not just lawyers.

For some reason, I doubt that Aventurine took the time or spent the money to do that with every single country.  All just to be able to possibly enfore an NDA for a vidoe game?  Heh... yeah, didn't happen. 

 

If this were true then Blizzard would not have been able to sue and win said lawsuit against RMT companies. It was a violation of the user agreement they agreed to.

Aside from that, they would not need to present it to every state etc. All they need is for a decent lawyer specializing in international law. Which is what most companies use for things like this................. but hey, maybe you are right.

 

Here's a nice little read for ya..........

http://www.chinalawblog.com/2006/12/china_non_disclosure_agreement.html

China Non Disclosure Agreements (NDA)-- Don't Leave Home Without One (Or Many)
Posted by Dan on December 21, 2006 at 01:45 PM
Discussion: Comments (6) : TrackBacks (0) : Linking Blogs : Add to del.icio.us

Years ago, my law firm used to get a fairly steady stream of panicked callers a month or so after returning from China where they showed their product, prototype or product drawings to Chinese OEM (original equipment manufacturing) companies. They were calling us in a panic because they had shown their product, prototype, or product design drawings around China (in some instances they had even left it there) and now everyone there had gone silent. They would typically ask if we thought a Chinese company might be using their information to copy their product. I would then ask them if they had required the Chinese companies to sign any sort of agreement before turning over the information. After a long pause, they would invariably answer, "no," and then usually ask about suing. I would then explain how the copying of a product in this sort of situation was probably a violation of Chinese law, but . . . .

I realized the other day that these calls have almost completely ceased and I think the increasing use of nondisclosure agreements is why. Our more typical call now is from a consultant or manufacturer seeking our help in drafting a non-disclosure agreement (NDA) before heading off to China with a prototype/product/drawing for OEM quotes.

Smart.

We love NDAs. They are simple, effective, and telling.

Simple, because they tend not to vary all that much from company to company or from product to product. We like putting in an attorneys' fee provision and a provision regarding injunctive relief. We always do them in both English and Chinese, nearly always for a flat fee.

Effective, because the Chinese courts are getting familiar with them and will generally enforce them.

Telling, because we have found that if a Chinese manufacturer refuses to sign one, this is probably not the Chinese manufacturer with whom you want to do business.

NDAs: Do not leave home without one.
See other posts in: Legal News
Comments

Good advice indeed. We have NDA's with all suppliers and our customers but I've often wondered how much they are worth given the size of our company and our business in China. I've sat with suppliers who we have NDA's with and they've openly shown us or told us information about our competition that I think they'd considered to be company confidential. It bloody horrifies me sometimes and I have to tell suppliers (even customers sometimes) that we're not interested in getting information like that. When I ask if they have NDA's with the company whose info they are are sharing it's always 'No' - something I find hard to believe given our line of business and the companies we compete with.

We've even been given samples of parts from our competition by (Chinese) senior sourcing and purchasing staff at a large multi-national OEM. I was even more shocked at that since I know for a fact that the person who gave us them had signed a confidentiality/non-disclosure contract with his employer. If we were caught with the samples we'd have to chose between admitting where we go them, and then losing the business through revenge from his colleagues or lying and trying to protect him and possibly losing the business as well.

As always in China - complain all you want but lead by example. *>* :-)

 

NDA's are enforced world wide for the most part. If you agree to it and break it you can be held accountable, regardless of where you live for the most part. There are some countries that will not necessarily enforce an NDA, those are becoming few and far between though.

But hey again you may be correct, and I may not be.

Nice little blurb there about NDA's as to how they relate to equipment manufacturing.  I could see how someone breaking an NDA on that would severely impact your business and you could prove a monetary loss.  It would make sense to take whatever legal action was necessary against them in that case.

I might have missed it, but where was the part that blurb talked about Video Game Beta NDA's again?  Or any legal action taken against someone who had broken a Video Game Beta NDA?  Especially if they are from a foreign company?  

I'm not all that smart, so it's entirely possible that it was in there, and I just missed it. 

Originally posted by GrayGhost79

If this were true then Blizzard would not have been able to sue and win said lawsuit against RMT companies. It was a violation of the user agreement they agreed to.

Aside from that, they would not need to present it to every state etc. All they need is for a decent lawyer specializing in international law. Which is what most companies use for things like this................. but hey, maybe you are right.

 

Here's a nice little read for ya..........

http://www.chinalawblog.com/2006/12/china_non_disclosure_agreement.html

NDA's are enforced world wide for the most part. If you agree to it and break it you can be held accountable, regardless of where you live for the most part. There are some countries that will not necessarily enforce an NDA, those are becoming few and far between though.

But hey again you may be correct, and I may not be.

Wow nice.  You managed to find a blog talking about manufacturing NDA's.  Wait, a blog about manufacturing...thought we were talking about game beta NDA's??  Enforcing protection of real property or real intellectual property (as I'm sure you'll say source code or game mechanics can be considered property) is slightly different than enforcing a "don't tell anyone about our game" NDA. 

You are correct, just regarding something completely different.  Stealing a prototype or a manufacturing process is not the same as disclosing the status of a video game beta or alpha for that matter.

Also, regarding the Blizzard RMT deal, they were able to bring suit against the RMT company because they were profitting on a large scale by selling in-game virtual items; which essentially all belong to Blizzard because they own the intellectual property rights to the game.  It was also against the EULA which gave Blizzard clear justification to sue.

So no, the manufacturing NDA doesn't prove much regarding the game beta NDA.  They won't come to your house in black SUV's and waterboard you until you give up all the NDA breaking commies in-game.

Originally posted by GrayGhost79

Originally posted by grimfall

Originally posted by pewtpewt

How is that talking out of the side of your mouth? If you intend to specialize in magery, than of course you would need to learn LESSER power before GREATER power. There will also be plenty of hybrids. A few abilities will be needed before gaining access to others "Oh look, I can can cast such powerful spells, but not those simple ones"? Kind of logical.

 

Yes, kind of logical.

Now tell me how what you just described differs from the Wizard class in EQ or WoW.

 

There are several schools of magic. A wizard is restricted to learning spells within a few schools of magic out of all the possible schools of magic. These schools are picked for you with a class such as wizard.

 

With Skills instead of classes, you go with any combination of magic schools you want.  Not only that but you can use heavy armor if you wish, 2 handed Axe, Crossbow, etc.

Notice, you didn't answer the question.  I understand that in theory you will be able to use a two-handed axe as a Mage type character.  What I suspect, which has happened to my knowledge in all the other 'classless' games, is that the vast majority of players will be forced into specialized roles.  Either PVE or PVP gameplay will force them to.  Yes there will be some rebels, but for the most part you'll find players playing ranged DPS, tanks, and healers.  And those rebels will be at a disadvantage when trying to find a group, when playing PVP or PVE.

Well, the biggest difference between the Skill system, and min-max classes, is that say you decided to start off as mainly a robe wearing spell caster, but you didn't like it.  In a class based game, you'd have to completely reroll, starting over from scratch.. In the skill based game,  just grab a sword and some armor- BAM, you can become a melee oriented character with some practice (skill-ups).  You don't have to unlearn your magic, and can even use the skills you learned prior in conjunction with the skills you are trying to level up. SO, there may be some skills that are more usefull then others, but if you level other less usefull skills, you can still switch over and learn the more usefull skills and still be as competative as someone who chose to only level the superior skills.  You can constantly change your character, and don't have to reroll a new character to try out different styles of playing.

Originally posted by Syyth007

Well, the biggest difference between the Skill system, and min-max classes, is that say you decided to start off as mainly a robe wearing spell caster, but you didn't like it.  In a class based game, you'd have to completely reroll, starting over from scratch.. In the skill based game,  just grab a sword and some armor- BAM, you can become a melee oriented character with some practice (skill-ups).  You don't have to unlearn your magic, and can even use the skills you learned prior in conjunction with the skills you are trying to level up. SO, there may be some skills that are more usefull then others, but if you level other less usefull skills, you can still switch over and learn the more usefull skills and still be as competative as someone who chose to only level the superior skills.  You can constantly change your character, and don't have to reroll a new character to try out different styles of playing.

What happens if I want to quickly switch from a robe wearing fire mage to a plate armor wearing knight? A revolutionary idea would be to make two characters,  so that I could play either as situation or whim demanded. 

I think this Tasos guy is full of shit.

"we're letting more people in Beta daily"

If you're letting people in daily then why not save yourself the trouble and just let EVERYONE in.

There is ABSOLUTELY NO REASON to hand pick people for testing and have an NDA 1 month before your game is supposed to go public. Especially when he also says there have been no problems.....

There haven't been any problems for the last 7 years...  yet here we still are............................................................waiting to play.

Originally posted by Rastical

I think this Tasos guy is full of _____.

"we're letting more people in Beta daily"

If you're letting people in daily then why not save yourself the trouble and just let EVERYONE in.

There is ABSOLUTELY NO REASON to hand pick people for testing and have an NDA 1 month before your game is supposed to go public. Especially when he also says there have been no problems.....

There haven't been any problems for the last 7 years...  yet here we still are............................................................waiting to play.

{ Mod Edit }

1. You would have to distribute 200,000 copies of the client for free

2. You would have to figure out a way to distribute them, and setup the account creation outside of the existing limited beta or billing system you have

3. You would have to set up approximately 10 servers

4. You would have to seperate these people's bug reports from the actual beta testers, and yet, presumably review them anyway

Plus probably half a dozen things I can't think of off the top of my head.

But other than that, you're right on!

Originally posted by grimfall

Originally posted by Rastical

I think this Tasos guy is full of _____.

"we're letting more people in Beta daily"

If you're letting people in daily then why not save yourself the trouble and just let EVERYONE in.

There is ABSOLUTELY NO REASON to hand pick people for testing and have an NDA 1 month before your game is supposed to go public. Especially when he also says there have been no problems.....

There haven't been any problems for the last 7 years...  yet here we still are............................................................waiting to play.

{ Mod Edit }

 

1. You would have to distribute 200,000 copies of the client for free

2. You would have to figure out a way to distribute them, and setup the account creation outside of the existing limited beta or billing system you have

3. You would have to set up approximately 10 servers

4. You would have to seperate these people's bug reports from the actual beta testers, and yet, presumably review them anyway

Plus probably half a dozen things I can't think of off the top of my head.

But other than that, you're right on!

IMO, this interview didn't give any new information about the game. It is like once an while this guy comes around and say a few things, nothing new... rinse and repeat.

From 1 month away from launch still there is no information about how the price, subscription, digital download... and even worse no mention about Free Trial at all.

And I agree with the red portion of the text. 

They have talked about dig dl before, and that the price will most likely be 15 bucks USD.

Originally posted by pewtpewt

They have talked about dig dl before, and that the price will most likely be 15 bucks USD.

Yes, that was before. What about Free Trial?

I would like to try this game (if launches on Jan 22nd) if only there is a Free Trial option. 

- I wonder what happened in regard to GNI being Darkfall's North American publisher? Because there is still information up on this at the GNI homesite.

http://www.gni.com/Customers/SuccessStory/tabid/81/ItemID/8/Default.aspx

- I just don't buy all the talk here about NDA's. It seems obvious to me that there is still no Darkfall public beta. Maybe Adventurine wants to pleasantly surprise everyone (i.e. Tasos does mention wanting to keep some gameplay aspects secret until release), but the lack of a public beta does make me somewhat more skeptical about the game.

- Somebody way back in this thread mentioned AC1 buffs lasting only ten minutes. This is not strictly true. The higher level the buff, the longer it lasted. Lev VI buffs were 1 hour, and I believe Lev VII might have been 2 hours. It's been a while...

Originally posted by grimfall

Originally posted by pewtpewt

How is that talking out of the side of your mouth? If you intend to specialize in magery, than of course you would need to learn LESSER power before GREATER power. There will also be plenty of hybrids. A few abilities will be needed before gaining access to others "Oh look, I can can cast such powerful spells, but not those simple ones"? Kind of logical.

 

Yes, kind of logical.

Now tell me how what you just described differs from the Wizard class in EQ or WoW.

Could Wizards wear full plate armor and wield a 2-handed axe when in melee? There will be people doing this in DF, hybrid builds will be most effective in small group fights. A tank mage like the one i mentioned there will exist, he will cast spells slow, and fizzle many of them, but he will be quite effective none the less in some situations.

There really are no classes here. Its much like UO or AC, just more variation, because DF has alot more spells/skills available.

Originally posted by Pynda

- I wonder what happened in regard to GNI being Darkfall's North American publisher? Because there is still information up on this at the GNI homesite.

http://www.gni.com/Customers/SuccessStory/tabid/81/ItemID/8/Default.aspx

- I just don't buy all the talk here about NDA's. It seems obvious to me that there is still no Darkfall public beta. Maybe Adventurine wants to pleasantly surprise everyone (i.e. Tasos does mention wanting to keep some gameplay aspects secret until release), but the lack of a public beta does make me somewhat more skeptical about the game.

- Somebody way back in this thread mentioned AC1 buffs lasting only ten minutes. This is not strictly true. The higher level the buff, the longer it lasted. Lev VI buffs were 1 hour, and I believe Lev VII might have been 2 hours. It's been a while...

GNI was never a publisher. They are simply for server infastructre.

Originally posted by grimfall

Originally posted by DarthRaiden

Originally posted by grimfall

Originally posted by pewtpewt

How is that talking out of the side of your mouth? If you intend to specialize in magery, than of course you would need to learn LESSER power before GREATER power. There will also be plenty of hybrids. A few abilities will be needed before gaining access to others "Oh look, I can can cast such powerful spells, but not those simple ones"? Kind of logical.

 

Yes, kind of logical.

Now tell me how what you just described differs from the Wizard class in EQ or WoW.

 

I could just slay your argument by saying..in DarkFall you don't have to try to get access to greater magic..

 

You don't have to what?  Play a wizard?
 

Look at all the skill based PVP games.  Have there been any where the 'generalist' has been a viable play style?  Or do players wind up loading all of their skills into specific ones which help them PVP the most?

I don't want to threadjack, but players are going to min-max.  They always have and they always will.  To act like they're not is naive.

You cant min-max in a game like this, because it there are so many different scenarios. Sometimes (in small number player fights) hybrids will be the best choice, but in bigger fights (sieges) pure class combinations will do better.

If you think otherwise you just havent played a game like this before.

But yes there will be some flavour of the month templates, these will change as alot of clueless people copy the bad-ass of the month pvp'ers template.

Who knows maybe 2-3 years down the road there will be some ironed out skill sets that may be appear to be something like classes. But even then there will still be alot of oddball builds that will work fine also.

I thought the interview was great. It did not appear to me that Tasos was 'arrogant' as many have claimed him to be after his interview with MMORPG. I like this site but I guess when u concentrate on negative questions u get a negative response.

In this new interview with curse.com the interview had a whole different atmosphere to it - if you ask specific questions about gameplay and launch than you get specific answers about those questions.
 

I don't see Tasos as being arrogant, i just see him as not wanting to put up with peoples bullshit. Good for him.

Originally posted by lvlanoob

 

I thought the interview was great. It did not appear to me that Tasos was 'arrogant' as many have claimed him to be after his interview with MMORPG. I like this site but I guess when u concentrate on negative questions u get a negative response.

In this new interview with curse.com the interview had a whole different atmosphere to it - if you ask specific questions about gameplay and launch than you get specific answers about those questions.
 

I don't see Tasos as being arrogant, i just see him as not wanting to put up with peoples bullshit. Good for him.

I give MMORPG.COM props for puttin him on the spot and asking questions that we the community wanted to know about.
 

Im sorry that they insulted your idol, but the questions were legitimate.

No MMO in history has been handled the way Aventurine has handled DFO.

If anything Tasos proved that hes never held a position like this before. Busted for being a noob at his job.

Originally posted by OpiumKing

Originally posted by downtoearth

Originally posted by OpiumKing

Originally posted by downtoearth

its called aprinter and a scanner

 

It doesn't matter if anyone sifgned something or just CLICKED A BUTTON SAYING "AGREE" ON IT.

It's  the same damn thing and CANNOT BE ENFORCED.

 

you wanna bet 

 

Yes I do.

Give me the Aventurine NDA to sign. I will sign it and release as much info and videos as I can everywhere I want and there would not be a damn thing they could do to me because for 1 they would never know it's me..

and two... they wouldn't waste their time or money on trying to enforce an NDA from a video game..

I've always thought the same thing.

Maybe I'm a criminal at heart or maybe I like a little chaos with my morning bagel?

Originally posted by downtoearth

Originally posted by Agricola1

Right now it's not hard because there's hardly anyone outside the "Aventurine circle of trust" playing Beta! Besides how would they prosecute a Chinese player? All they could do is find out who it was and ban thier IP, which let's face it is a minor deterent at best! For a proper closed Beta it would be too difficult to pinpoint who breaks an NDA if they just black out certain stuff in screenshots/videos, but this isn't a proper closed Beta in my opinion.

 

umm actully the nda ha s a bit mroe than just an ip ban it doesnt spicify it tho aventurine isnt messing with leakers wtf the point of having an nda if they dont enforce it?

thers is truly around 500-700 testers and this increases daily

and no its not like a normal closed beta

Much like American copyrights, they're only as strong as the legal team the backing company can afford.

Adventurine would have to spent a TON of money to enforce an NDA overseas.

There's another little contract kinda like an NDA called a EULA (end user license agreement). We all agreed to the Microsoft EULA (unless we're using something else).

The Russian courts threw out a case that tried to enforce RAMPANT software piracy in Russian schools. Microsoft spent lots of money to fight it. In the end they got nothing.

EULA's aren't enforceable. NDA's aren't enforceable. Copyrights and Trademarks are barely enforceable.

I think Darkfall is going to end up in the same space (no pun!) as EVE.

In EVE you don't min-max so much as you just get the skills you need for what you want to accomplish. It's obvious what is needed. You wanna kill people with Drones? Get drone skills. You wanna do some mining? Get some mining skills.

Originally posted by hoopty

That would sux to make a boat by teams/guilds and watch it being taken away by another group..After days/weeks and months to make the boat/ship..It would sux to be them ..haha

actually its awsome... I love when Super Capitals in EVE Online get taken or blown up... Its INTENSE!