Pre Trammel did NOT fail.

You want to know what killed UO? I was there what killed UO was the complaining and finally getting what they want a friendly no killing and bad stuff zone away from the evil players. The core of UO was not carebears it was PVPers.. they left, and all that was left was an army of hugs and kisses. Case in point the same thing that happened to UO is now happening to WOW, just go look at there forums.. go on go look at the PVP forums, the WOTLK expansion is totally balanced to PVE and screws PVP, wanna see how they act aftter they destroy a game look at some of the typical responses they have.

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=13593960444&sid=1  

Know what else screws up MMORPGS? Tom Chilton in UO his name was EVOCARE he was head Dev there after UOR was out.. the game was booming doing great... then he created Age of Shadows the expansion... hrm what happened after that.. lets see. 

http://www.uoforums.com/f1563/age-of-shadows-and-us-48278/

THAT is wha messed UO  AOS and pvp imbalance don't belive me go check the forum archives youll see threads that read Server Exodus. Players are not satisfied until they destroy the game and usually they get board shortly after they mess up and follow you to your new game...

Wanna know who the head Dev for WOTLK and BC was.. Kalgan, AKA Evocare AKA Tom Chilton.

But were ready in Darkfall no players will be left standing, the crafting system is gonna be good to so lots of Carebears.. but thats fine all the big pvp guilds are coming as well..

{ Mod Edit }

Originally posted by Faelsun

 

Pre Trammel did NOT fail.

 

You want to know what killed UO? I was there what killed UO was the complaining and finally getting what they want a friendly no killing and bad stuff zone away from the evil players. The core of UO was not carebears it was PVPers.. they left, and all that was left was an army of hugs and kisses. Case in point the same thing that happened to UO is now happening to WOW, just go look at there forums.. go on go look at the PVP forums, the WOTLK expansion is totally balanced to PVE and screws PVP, wanna see how they act aftter they destroy a game look at some of the typical responses they have.

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=13593960444&sid=1

Know what else screws up MMORPGS? Tom Chilton in UO his name was EVOCARE he was head Dev there after UOR was out.. the game was booming doing great... then he created Age of Shadows the expansion... hrm what happened after that.. lets see.

http://www.uoforums.com/f1563/age-of-shadows-and-us-48278/

THAT is wha messed UO AOS and pvp imbalance don't belive me go check the forum archives youll see threads that read Server Exodus. Players are not satisfied until they destroy the game and usually they get board shortly after they mess up and follow you to your new game...

Wanna know who the head Dev for WOTLK and BC was.. Kalgan, AKA Evocare AKA Tom Chilton.

But were ready in Darkfall no players will be left standing, the crafting system is gonna be good to so lots of Carebears.. but thats fine all the big pvp guilds are coming as well..

{ Mod Edit }

 

Are you ready for big empty world syndrome? Because any game that require carebears, like UO did pre AoS, and doesn't  take care of them, like UO pre-trammel, are epic failures. AoS didn't just drive the PvP'ers out it drove the crafters out too by making the game item centric without having the items craftable.  That's ok don't learn from history. Just keep ranting.

The pertinernt question is how did the population on Felucca compare to Trammel? Before AoS killed the goose that laid the golden egg that is.

{ Mod Edit }

I appreciate all the great responses to this thread.  Nice that it has remained mostly civil.  I'm going to respond to the post below because it contains most of the points everyone else made.

I respect and appreciate the thoughtful post by the OP. He uses logic and empirical data as best he can. I have to say, however, that I disagree with him on multiple points.

1. Exploits. Yes, there will be some for sure. That's the nature of every PvP MMO. It simply becomes part of the game and has never killed any MMO that I know of. Simply adapt, and use the exploit if the Devs will not fix it. Or, don't play PvP MMOs. That's not being harsh, it's the truth. Darkfall is really for an older, more mentally hardened playerbase, your 12 year old WoW addict probably will get frusterated with the game. That will not kill darkfall.  Agree, Exploits are in every game.  But in full-loot FFA games, the consequences of them are magnified.  We don't know how quick the DF team will be at fixing them, but the ruleset of DF means they MUST be quicker than say the WOW team at fixing them.  The higher the consequences of death, the faster exploits need to be taken care of (that was my main point). If every third encounter you have with another player involves you getting killed by an exploit and losing your gear.. will you really want to play for 3 weeks like that?

2. Lag/Crashes. No different from any harcore online game. This has full loot, sure. Loot is not that big a deal in this game, and quite simply, shit happens. Part of a hardcore environment is that real life happens sometimes. The playerbase being marketed to is an older, tougher crowd that can pick themselves up from the occasional "shit happens" and drive on. Furthermore, with FiOS growing rapidly, and cable internet speeding up to compete, this has been and will continue to be a decreasingly important factor. Back in the time of UO and AC/DT and full loot MUDs, people were on horrendous 56k modems, having their sister/brother/mother/father pick up the phone and disconnect them almost daily. Yet those games thrived.  So true.  I pvped in UO for the first 3 years on a 56k modem :)  But look at the Warhammer forums if you think 'tech' has been improved.  One of the most frustrating things about Warhammer is that you fight for 6 hours to get to a Fort Raid, and then the servers crash almost every time.  Most of the time your progress is reverted when the servers come back up and you have to start again.

3. Griefing noobs. There are no levels in this game, you cannot see someone's skill. Some people will hang out in noob areas waiting for rPKs to come so they can kill them and take their good shit. Anti's will protect noobs, rPKs will kill them. That's part of what makes the game what it is. If this is a downside, then this game isn't for you. People will recruit in these noob areas, offer protection, help, etc., in return for their allegiance. That's how it worked in AC/DT and I have no doubt this will be similar.  We will see.  I played both AC and UO.. and yes, occassionally the anti-pks would sweep through and clear out the reds.  The majority of the time it was owned by the reds.

4. Coming late. Again, no levels in this game, it is skill based. Ever played an FPS with "money" like Wolfteam 2? Sure, the veterans have tricked out rifles, but I can still hand them their asses with a standard M4 because I'm simply a better gamer. Clearly in Darkfall the advantage will be much greater, but the same principle applies. An established playerbase would actually make playing far more interesting IMO, and streamline quite a few things for a new player. You would quickly learn what builds you liked, what character types you admired, where the good hunting spots were, what clan to aspire to join, how crafting works, etc. But, if you can't hack it playing catch up, then this game isn't for you.  It doesn't matter if you call them 'skills' or you call them levels.  In UO, a 7xGM ws much more powerful then a player with 50 in their main attack spell.

5. Class balance. There are no classes. No reason to belabor this point, your statement simply doesn't apply to Darkfall. No classes, nothing to balance. Players will have skill decay and obtaining new skillsets is as simple as using the skill you like. No reason to cry over something when you can just as easily adapt. That will be the mentality of the older generation of gamers who will comprise much of the playerbase of Darkfall. If you can't adapt, then Darkfall isn't for you (sorry I know I'm sounding like a broken record on that, but it's true).  Yes, DF will be like UO and use skills... but there certainly were 'classes' in UO.   I can tell you the 'class' of my characters, and I bet you can fill in my 7xGms.  " Nox mage" "Bard Mage".... yes, you have individual skills you raise, but ultimately there will be the same 'builds' that will be standardized and will basically be the same as classes.  Like I said, there was a point in UO where EVERYONE had the same 'skills'.. it was a mage with Polearms.  I can't remember the name it was called, but when you used it, everyone knew exactly what 7 skill the person had.

6. Friends. I assume your fear is being ganked? That's the whole point of the game, fear being ganked, and do some ganking. Grief and be griefed. Loot and be looted. That's where the adrenaline rush occurs, when you are 5v1 against another party and are holding your ground. Ever played an immersive melee FPS with friendly fire? Partying up to gank can be very detrimental, you have to avoid hitting one another, but your enemy has free reign to flail away knowing every blow is a good one. Play some Jedi Academy with some friends, on Team Free For All, and turn friendly fire on, and see just how careful you have to be to avoid killing your allies. Perhaps then you will understand. But again, if fighting the odds, and taking on gank parties, and risking your neck a little by going it alone in the woods is too scary for you, then this is not the game for you.  Ehh.. don't get personal.  I actually enjoyed UO before Trammel.  But as I said, the devs of the game stated that they were getting the majority of 'quit comments' saying the reasons for quitting were exactly this.  Believe it or not, you can play through something and survive, and still understand why others didn't.  I think that is what the old-school UO players fail to do.  They say they lived throught it, and fail to see that most players didn't.  This is fine if you want to have a game that peaks at launch and goes downhill fast.

In some ways you have attacked the core of what Darkfall is, what makes those of us who are enthused want to play it. Most of your points are the essence of a PvP MMORPG. If you consider those good reasons not to play Darkfall, then it isn't your game. There are a lot of people, myself included, who consider some of those points to be exactly why we have played similar games in the past. You don't get adrenaline without risk, and you don't get risk by making sure every player has a safety net to fall back on at all times. Darkfall is not really intended for younger users who are unwilling to solve their own problems, or who cannot cope with griefing and loss. It is built for the old PvP MUDers, the UOers, the Darktiders, and it is indeed being built by them. Four of the five head devs played Darktide, and I believe the same number played UO as well. If you want to play Soccer, don't get on a field full of Rugby players, go to the soccer field. Darkfall may not be for you.   Yeah, some of it is just a warning to players (and devs).  If you want your game to survive, don't excessively gank new players.   Make the anti-pks the majority and the indiscriminate PKs the outcasts (not the norm).  Don't exploit and don't share exploits.   Players in pre-trammel UO were the reason Trammel was created.  They drove away a lot of new players.  If you want the game to succeed, you have to play for the long-term health of the game, not your momentary thrill of ganking newbs :)  I was simply stating the reason pre-trammel failed in hopes that players and devs can overcome them.

Originally posted by Faelsun

 

Pre Trammel did NOT fail.

 

You want to know what killed UO? I was there what killed UO was the complaining and finally getting what they want a friendly no killing and bad stuff zone away from the evil players. The core of UO was not carebears it was PVPers.. they left, and all that was left was an army of hugs and kisses. Case in point the same thing that happened to UO is now happening to WOW, just go look at there forums.. go on go look at the PVP forums, the WOTLK expansion is totally balanced to PVE and screws PVP, wanna see how they act aftter they destroy a game look at some of the typical responses they have.

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=13593960444&sid=1

Know what else screws up MMORPGS? Tom Chilton in UO his name was EVOCARE he was head Dev there after UOR was out.. the game was booming doing great... then he created Age of Shadows the expansion... hrm what happened after that.. lets see.

http://www.uoforums.com/f1563/age-of-shadows-and-us-48278/

THAT is wha messed UO AOS and pvp imbalance don't belive me go check the forum archives youll see threads that read Server Exodus. Players are not satisfied until they destroy the game and usually they get board shortly after they mess up and follow you to your new game...

Wanna know who the head Dev for WOTLK and BC was.. Kalgan, AKA Evocare AKA Tom Chilton.

But were ready in Darkfall no players will be left standing, the crafting system is gonna be good to so lots of Carebears.. but thats fine all the big pvp guilds are coming as well..

{ Mod Edit }

 

 

So yeah, enjoy your 'bloodbath' for the first two months, then be prepared for an empty world.   You are exactly the type of player that will roam in a pack of other players, ganking solo players over and over who are just starting the game .  And then complain when the 'carebear' games keep getting 12M subscribers.  And complaining when the developers of your game don't have the manpower to fix exploits or add content.

I'm sure Chilten is very upset about your post.  I mean.. he is the guy who grew a game to 12M players..  but I'm sure he would have more if he had listened to you, right?

Originally posted by Azrile

It's apparent that  part 6 of Noobs really clarifies how 'exactly' the ruleset of DF will be the same as UO was before Trammel.   Her comments about going rogue (grey in UO).

The fact is, that UO was dying pretty rapidly up until they announced Trammel.    Let me give you some reasons why players quit under this kind of system.

1.  Exploits -     Dying to players who exploit in other games is annoying.. dying to exploiters and losing all your stuff will make you completely stop playing until the exploit is fixed.   How fast do 'exploits' spread? Once someone learns it, they will pass it onto their guild and friends.  How fast do most games take to fix an exploit?  A few weeks to acknowledge it, another 2 weeks to fix it?  UO had a bunch of real exploits (spamming chat to get people to lag) and they also had 'tricks'.   Just like in UO.. players will learn how to get you to go rogue/grey so they can get you killed.  Honest players will just stop playing, everyone else will learn to use the exploit.

2. Lag/Crashes - Same as above.  If you have lag spikes at all, will you really play that day? In other games, death isn't that big of a deal, so you don't mind getting killed a few extra times because your connection is bad.  

3. Brit graveyard - To those that didn't play UO, I'll explain this :)  Brit graveyard was typically the first area where new players would 'wander' outside of town.  It was right outside of the biggest town, and it had easy monsters to kill.  Because of this, it was often the place where Murderers hung out.  In UO, new players were often essentially trapped in town.  Yes, if you knew people before you started playing, they could help you.. but you basically had to know them BEFORE you started playing.  Someone who just bought the box, logged in and started playing, probably spent their first month rarely getting out of town.  This is the exact reason UO introduced Trammel.   Players weren't renewing after their free month, and they were citing 'ganking' as the reason.   The same thing will happen in Darkfall.  Anti-social players will camp the area where new players first step into the 'world' and gank them. 

4. Don't come late to the party -  This kind of goes with #3.  But basically what happens is if you are a month or two late starting the game, you will be getting ganked all the time by players that are more powerful than you and they will block your progress.  The first players who got through 'brit graveyard' were free to advance their skills pretty freely, but anyone who started late, always had more powerful characters waiting for them.  This was the reason that some players 'loved' old UO.. because they were out there early.   I was lucky when I played UO, i started at launch.  But I had enough friends who started late and I 'experienced' what they did.   New players won't renew

5. Class/skill balance - Class balance is extremely hard to do.  Class balance in PvP is almost impossible.   How much fun is it going to be to play if you aren't the OP class? If because of skill/class balance you are losing your gear all the time.  In every game, players cry about class balance.. in a game where it means you lose your gear..they will do more than cry, they will quit, or they will reroll to the OP class.

6. Bring your friends -  full-loss death means that players will group up and wander in bands.  This sounds cool in theory, but what happens if you log in and you don't have many friends on?   And again, what about new players?

UO pre-trammel showed exactly what is going to happen with DF.

1.  New players won't last the first month
2. Exploits will be rampent and spread quickly.   'tricking' players into going grey will be considered a tactic.  Players who are successful aren't the ones who use their skills the best, they will be the ones who learn to game the game.
3. The Flavor-of-the-month class will be the only one played.   UO had a phase (about 6 months) where everyone was a mage who carried a polearm. 
4.  Gear grinding -  You'll have to have many sets of gear stored, or else when you die with your group, you will get left behind as you try to get more gear.

There is a reason why UO made Trammel, they were losing a ton of players because of the ruleset.

If you have a pre-built guild and you plan on starting on day 1 things will seem fine for a few weeks... but the UO ruleset just is not viable for a longterm game

Some people had similar experiences to yours when they got owned, some folks like myself got revenge and adapted. Take a look at this story from my UO days. That is whats been missing in mmo's for quite a while, and that is the type of thing a lot of us ex-uo players want. DF and such arent for everyone, it will be a niche game.

However, while you think trammel made UO, my friends and I think thats what killed it.

Excuse me. Some of us gank solo and then complain about the carebear game getting 12M players. Thank you.

pre trammel was the REAL UO, you had to TRY to play, it made RISKS and REWARDS.

Trammel/Fel split was the end of the first and greatest graphical MMO.

End Of Story.

Originally posted by Azrile

Originally posted by Faelsun

 

Pre Trammel did NOT fail.

 

You want to know what killed UO? I was there what killed UO was the complaining and finally getting what they want a friendly no killing and bad stuff zone away from the evil players. The core of UO was not carebears it was PVPers.. they left, and all that was left was an army of hugs and kisses. Case in point the same thing that happened to UO is now happening to WOW, just go look at there forums.. go on go look at the PVP forums, the WOTLK expansion is totally balanced to PVE and screws PVP, wanna see how they act aftter they destroy a game look at some of the typical responses they have.

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=13593960444&sid=1

Know what else screws up MMORPGS? Tom Chilton in UO his name was EVOCARE he was head Dev there after UOR was out.. the game was booming doing great... then he created Age of Shadows the expansion... hrm what happened after that.. lets see.

http://www.uoforums.com/f1563/age-of-shadows-and-us-48278/

THAT is wha messed UO AOS and pvp imbalance don't belive me go check the forum archives youll see threads that read Server Exodus. Players are not satisfied until they destroy the game and usually they get board shortly after they mess up and follow you to your new game...

Wanna know who the head Dev for WOTLK and BC was.. Kalgan, AKA Evocare AKA Tom Chilton.

But were ready in Darkfall no players will be left standing, the crafting system is gonna be good to so lots of Carebears.. but thats fine all the big pvp guilds are coming as well..

{ Mod Edit }

 

 

 

So yeah, enjoy your 'bloodbath' for the first two months, then be prepared for an empty world.   You are exactly the type of player that will roam in a pack of other players, ganking solo players over and over who are just starting the game .  And then complain when the 'carebear' games keep getting 12M subscribers.  And complaining when the developers of your game don't have the manpower to fix exploits or add content.

I'm sure Chilten is very upset about your post.  I mean.. he is the guy who grew a game to 12M players..  but I'm sure he would have more if he had listened to you, right?

Very well said.

If you're interested read up and have an opinion on this thread that was made on Darkfall main website on the alignment system of Darkfall and how we in B@D want it to be.

Might be a bit out of this thread but i think it have some similarities -

http://forums.darkfallonline.com/showthread.php?t=90716

While the OP makes some valid points, I think what is lost among all the ranting in this and other threads is what Aventurine's goals are compared to the goals of the UO developers (and EA the publisher).  No one really knows what Aventurine will consider a success or a failure.  Success to them might be recouping their investment and generating a modest income via subscriptions for three years.  Success to EA is likely totally different, and probably focused on huge profit numbers in a short amount of time.

In a nutshell, while the game systems bear some similarities, no one here can define success or failure from Aventurine's perspective, and so this is all really rather pointless.

If they truly are aiming for a niche game with consequences, then a single-server game with under ten thousand players may very well equal 'success.' 

Originally posted by Azrile

It's apparent that  part 6 of Noobs really clarifies how 'exactly' the ruleset of DF will be the same as UO was before Trammel.   Her comments about going rogue (grey in UO).

The fact is, that UO was dying pretty rapidly up until they announced Trammel.    Let me give you some reasons why players quit under this kind of system.

1.  Exploits -     Dying to players who exploit in other games is annoying.. dying to exploiters and losing all your stuff will make you completely stop playing until the exploit is fixed.   How fast do 'exploits' spread? Once someone learns it, they will pass it onto their guild and friends.  How fast do most games take to fix an exploit?  A few weeks to acknowledge it, another 2 weeks to fix it?  UO had a bunch of real exploits (spamming chat to get people to lag) and they also had 'tricks'.   Just like in UO.. players will learn how to get you to go rogue/grey so they can get you killed.  Honest players will just stop playing, everyone else will learn to use the exploit.

2. Lag/Crashes - Same as above.  If you have lag spikes at all, will you really play that day? In other games, death isn't that big of a deal, so you don't mind getting killed a few extra times because your connection is bad.  

3. Brit graveyard - To those that didn't play UO, I'll explain this :)  Brit graveyard was typically the first area where new players would 'wander' outside of town.  It was right outside of the biggest town, and it had easy monsters to kill.  Because of this, it was often the place where Murderers hung out.  In UO, new players were often essentially trapped in town.  Yes, if you knew people before you started playing, they could help you.. but you basically had to know them BEFORE you started playing.  Someone who just bought the box, logged in and started playing, probably spent their first month rarely getting out of town.  This is the exact reason UO introduced Trammel.   Players weren't renewing after their free month, and they were citing 'ganking' as the reason.   The same thing will happen in Darkfall.  Anti-social players will camp the area where new players first step into the 'world' and gank them. 

4. Don't come late to the party -  This kind of goes with #3.  But basically what happens is if you are a month or two late starting the game, you will be getting ganked all the time by players that are more powerful than you and they will block your progress.  The first players who got through 'brit graveyard' were free to advance their skills pretty freely, but anyone who started late, always had more powerful characters waiting for them.  This was the reason that some players 'loved' old UO.. because they were out there early.   I was lucky when I played UO, i started at launch.  But I had enough friends who started late and I 'experienced' what they did.   New players won't renew

5. Class/skill balance - Class balance is extremely hard to do.  Class balance in PvP is almost impossible.   How much fun is it going to be to play if you aren't the OP class? If because of skill/class balance you are losing your gear all the time.  In every game, players cry about class balance.. in a game where it means you lose your gear..they will do more than cry, they will quit, or they will reroll to the OP class.

6. Bring your friends -  full-loss death means that players will group up and wander in bands.  This sounds cool in theory, but what happens if you log in and you don't have many friends on?   And again, what about new players?

UO pre-trammel showed exactly what is going to happen with DF.

1.  New players won't last the first month
2. Exploits will be rampent and spread quickly.   'tricking' players into going grey will be considered a tactic.  Players who are successful aren't the ones who use their skills the best, they will be the ones who learn to game the game.
3. The Flavor-of-the-month class will be the only one played.   UO had a phase (about 6 months) where everyone was a mage who carried a polearm. 
4.  Gear grinding -  You'll have to have many sets of gear stored, or else when you die with your group, you will get left behind as you try to get more gear.

There is a reason why UO made Trammel, they were losing a ton of players because of the ruleset.

If you have a pre-built guild and you plan on starting on day 1 things will seem fine for a few weeks... but the UO ruleset just is not viable for a longterm game

Trammel killed UO after butting that in I know of atleast 150ppl that stopped playing, Because why pay to play diablo cause that is all it was after that.

Granted there were some hardcores that stayed but even they wish it had never happened.

That is exactly right.   With a FFA pvp game with loot drop... the penatly for being a PK has to be high.

The other big thing is the biggest guilds should be 'pro-darkfall' and want to stamp out the PKs.  If the biggest guilds turn out to just be roving hordes of gankers.. then the game will fail.

murderers should be outcasts, not the majority

Originally posted by Faelsun

 

Pre Trammel did NOT fail.

 

You want to know what killed UO? I was there what killed UO was the complaining and finally getting what they want a friendly no killing and bad stuff zone away from the evil players. The core of UO was not carebears it was PVPers.. they left, and all that was left was an army of hugs and kisses. Case in point the same thing that happened to UO is now happening to WOW, just go look at there forums.. go on go look at the PVP forums, the WOTLK expansion is totally balanced to PVE and screws PVP, wanna see how they act aftter they destroy a game look at some of the typical responses they have.

{ Mod Edit }

 

Not really. What really happened was that the carebears left to play EQ. Without the carebears around the community lost its balance. Most of us can't even tell you what happened next because we weren't there to see it. 90% of the people in my guild left the day EQ came out.

Originally posted by Aganazer

Originally posted by Faelsun

 

Pre Trammel did NOT fail.

 

You want to know what killed UO? I was there what killed UO was the complaining and finally getting what they want a friendly no killing and bad stuff zone away from the evil players. The core of UO was not carebears it was PVPers.. they left, and all that was left was an army of hugs and kisses. Case in point the same thing that happened to UO is now happening to WOW, just go look at there forums.. go on go look at the PVP forums, the WOTLK expansion is totally balanced to PVE and screws PVP, wanna see how they act aftter they destroy a game look at some of the typical responses they have.

{ Mod Edit }

 

Not really. What really happened was that the carebears left to play EQ. Without the carebears around the community lost its balance. Most of us can't even tell you what happened next because we weren't there to see it. 90% of the people in my guild left the day EQ came out.

Thing is.. if you look at the numbers, there was an overlap of around 4 years where both EQ and UO went up in population, and, if you look at the chart (which the OP didn't) you can see there was NO change when trammel came out.

And why would that ruin a game anyways? Because you could no longer kill the people who didn't want to right? How fun is it to chase someone half across a map to kill them when they were running the whole time?  It's like beating up a 5 year old playing at a play ground.. you know you are going to win.. the gains really aren't all that great.. So.. why bother?

Personally I hated the original UO, but it was the most fun I ever had in any game. Getting the shit scared out of u running from dude riding on a horse. God I wish those days would come back.

Originally posted by SupderD

And why would that ruin a game anyways? Because you could no longer kill the people who didn't want to right? How fun is it to chase someone half across a map to kill them when they were running the whole time?  It's like beating up a 5 year old playing at a play ground.. you know you are going to win.. the gains really aren't all that great.. So.. why bother?

Killers get their kicks from imposing themselves on others. This may be "nice", ie. busybody do-gooding, but few people practice such an approach because the rewards (a warm, cosy inner glow, apparently) aren't very substantial. Much more commonly, people attack other players with a view to killing off their personae (hence the name for this style of play). The more massive the distress caused, the greater the killer's joy at having caused it. Normal points-scoring is usually required so as to become powerful enough to begin causing havoc in earnest, and exploration of a kind is necessary to discover new and ingenious ways to kill people. Even socialising is sometimes worthwhile beyond taunting a recent victim, for example in finding out someone's playing habits, or discussing tactics with fellow killers. They're all just means to an end, though; only in the knowledge that a real person, somewhere, is very upset by what you've just done, yet can themselves do nothing about it, is there any true adrenalin-shooting, juicy fun.

"Tilting towards killers is more difficult, because this type of player is parasitic on the other three types. The emphasis on causing grief has to be sacrificed in favour of the thrill of the chase, and bolstered by the use of quick-thinking and skill to overcome adversity in clever (but violent) ways. In other words, this becomes an arcade ("shoot 'em up") type of game."
~Richard Bartle

Why answer it myself when its been common knowledge for nearly 20 years?

Originally posted by SupderD

Originally posted by Aganazer

Originally posted by Faelsun

 

Pre Trammel did NOT fail.

 

You want to know what killed UO? I was there what killed UO was the complaining and finally getting what they want a friendly no killing and bad stuff zone away from the evil players. The core of UO was not carebears it was PVPers.. they left, and all that was left was an army of hugs and kisses. Case in point the same thing that happened to UO is now happening to WOW, just go look at there forums.. go on go look at the PVP forums, the WOTLK expansion is totally balanced to PVE and screws PVP, wanna see how they act aftter they destroy a game look at some of the typical responses they have.

{ Mod Edit }

 

Not really. What really happened was that the carebears left to play EQ. Without the carebears around the community lost its balance. Most of us can't even tell you what happened next because we weren't there to see it. 90% of the people in my guild left the day EQ came out.

 

Thing is.. if you look at the numbers, there was an overlap of around 4 years where both EQ and UO went up in population, and, if you look at the chart (which the OP didn't) you can see there was NO change when trammel came out.

And why would that ruin a game anyways? Because you could no longer kill the people who didn't want to right? How fun is it to chase someone half across a map to kill them when they were running the whole time?  It's like beating up a 5 year old playing at a play ground.. you know you are going to win.. the gains really aren't all that great.. So.. why bother?

You are exactly describing what happens.   Why would 5 players with full developed characters hang out in a newbie area waiting for a new player to leave the protected zone?   No reason at all, yet it is going to happen ALL the time.   It is why they are called 'griefers'.. there is no reward to them except causing grief to other players.

Read some of the last few posters?  They want to 'teach carebears a lesson"  etc.  Do you really think they need a reward for killing a new player?  No

I can't believe this thread is still going. A few facts here should have ended it a long time ago.

Fact 1) UO pre-trammel was never in a decline.

Fact 2) Trammel briefly increased subs but then reverted back to the Pre-Trammel numbers.

Fact 3) The only Decline UO ever saw was Post-Trammel which included the decline after the brief spike seen from  Trammel's first appearance and the continous decline seen after the brief spike that AoS brought.

Those are facts and indisputable because they are supported by all of the actual information that is even remotely reliable. There is no reliable information out there that supports the "Theory" that UO was in a decline pre-trammel. The only people that even have any belief in this theory are those that A) Never followed UO B) Never Played UO or C) Did not play Pre-Trammel, or a combination of either A and B or A and C.

UO never saw a decline of any sort until AFTER Trammel hit the scene. This is Fact.

Originally posted by Azrile

The fact is, that UO was dying pretty rapidly up until they announced Trammel.    Let me give you some reasons why players quit under this kind of system.

Wrong uo was growing steady when they released trammel it stopped growing.

after the release of the next expansion pack it shortly grew ( because asain people got acces to uo) and after a few months the numbers of subcribers declined to amounts before pre trammel.

1.  Exploits -     Dying to players who exploit in other games is annoying.. dying to exploiters and losing all your stuff will make you completely stop playing until the exploit is fixed.   How fast do 'exploits' spread? Once someone learns it, they will pass it onto their guild and friends.  How fast do most games take to fix an exploit?  A few weeks to acknowledge it, another 2 weeks to fix it?  UO had a bunch of real exploits (spamming chat to get people to lag) and they also had 'tricks'.   Just like in UO.. players will learn how to get you to go rogue/grey so they can get you killed.  Honest players will just stop playing, everyone else will learn to use the exploit.

 

in new mmo exploits are always there in every game. lets hope they can fix any real exploits fast.

but some tricks where just that tricks to get you go grey. most people dont fall for it a 2e time. the people that do complain.

2. Lag/Crashes - Same as above.  If you have lag spikes at all, will you really play that day? In other games, death isn't that big of a deal, so you don't mind getting killed a few extra times because your connection is bad.  

remember that around that time atleast 80% of the players where using dial up. every one using broadband internet was king.

3. Brit graveyard - To those that didn't play UO, I'll explain this :)  Brit graveyard was typically the first area where new players would 'wander' outside of town.  It was right outside of the biggest town, and it had easy monsters to kill.  Because of this, it was often the place where Murderers hung out.  In UO, new players were often essentially trapped in town.  Yes, if you knew people before you started playing, they could help you.. but you basically had to know them BEFORE you started playing.  Someone who just bought the box, logged in and started playing, probably spent their first month rarely getting out of town.  This is the exact reason UO introduced Trammel.   Players weren't renewing after their free month, and they were citing 'ganking' as the reason.   The same thing will happen in Darkfall.  Anti-social players will camp the area where new players first step into the 'world' and gank them. 

i learned fast enough to not go to brit graveyard instead i whent to vesper graveyard. still got killed there a few times but was alot saver.

4. Don't come late to the party -  This kind of goes with #3.  But basically what happens is if you are a month or two late starting the game, you will be getting ganked all the time by players that are more powerful than you and they will block your progress.  The first players who got through 'brit graveyard' were free to advance their skills pretty freely, but anyone who started late, always had more powerful characters waiting for them.  This was the reason that some players 'loved' old UO.. because they were out there early.   I was lucky when I played UO, i started at launch.  But I had enough friends who started late and I 'experienced' what they did.   New players won't renew

in every mmo where you are starting later then others you have a gap to overcome. but i do think they have this covered.

5. Class/skill balance - Class balance is extremely hard to do.  Class balance in PvP is almost impossible.   How much fun is it going to be to play if you aren't the OP class? If because of skill/class balance you are losing your gear all the time.  In every game, players cry about class balance.. in a game where it means you lose your gear..they will do more than cry, they will quit, or they will reroll to the OP class.

this again is the same as other games some classes are more powerfull then others. some will reroll to that class but atleast dfo wont force you in a certain direction if you wanna play that mage with ringmail armor and sometimes wanna use a sword you can!

6. Bring your friends -  full-loss death means that players will group up and wander in bands.  This sounds cool in theory, but what happens if you log in and you don't have many friends on?   And again, what about new players?

find a nice and qiuet place where you can go hunt. or bring only the minimum of stuff you need and go aventure around the world. or anything els you can think of.

UO pre-trammel showed exactly what is going to happen with DF.

1.  New players won't last the first month
2. Exploits will be rampent and spread quickly.   'tricking' players into going grey will be considered a tactic.  Players who are successful aren't the ones who use their skills the best, they will be the ones who learn to game the game.
3. The Flavor-of-the-month class will be the only one played.   UO had a phase (about 6 months) where everyone was a mage who carried a polearm. 
4.  Gear grinding -  You'll have to have many sets of gear stored, or else when you die with your group, you will get left behind as you try to get more gear.

There is a reason why UO made Trammel, they were losing a ton of players because of the ruleset.

If you have a pre-built guild and you plan on starting on day 1 things will seem fine for a few weeks... but the UO ruleset just is not viable for a longterm game

this is just another post about someone that cant handle ful loot pvp and wan to change to game your probably on of the people that attacked polymorphed people again and again. Or whent to brit graveyard again and again. or some one that did not ask people that seemed to be playing longer info about the game.

 

etc etc etc

 

sigh

 

i am not a pker but i do like pvp.

pve was more exciting when you atleast needed to watch out for other people if you did not knew them.

people like you ruined the game UO i was playing and changed it into a game that was boring.

Originally posted by GrayGhost79

Fact 1) UO pre-trammel was never in a decline.

Fact 2) Trammel briefly increased subs but then reverted back to the Pre-Trammel numbers.

Fact 3) The only Decline UO ever saw was Post-Trammel which included the decline after the brief spike seen from  Trammel's first appearance and the continous decline seen after the brief spike that AoS brought.

Those are facts and indisputable because they are supported by all of the actual information that is even remotely reliable. There is no reliable information out there that supports the "Theory" that UO was in a decline pre-trammel. The only people that even have any belief in this theory are those that A) Never followed UO B) Never Played UO or C) Did not play Pre-Trammel, or a combination of either A and B or A and C.

 

UO never saw a decline of any sort until AFTER Trammel hit the scene. This is Fact.

All true yes when talking about absolute subscription numbers. But then again the entire MMOG genre was exploding at that time.

If you look at it in relative terms, UO had lost over 50% of its market share within just a few months of EQ's release. It also polarized the community.

Its a moot point though unless anyone can prove that some quality of playerbase actually changed as a result of it.

Originally posted by Aganazer

Originally posted by GrayGhost79

Fact 1) UO pre-trammel was never in a decline.

Fact 2) Trammel briefly increased subs but then reverted back to the Pre-Trammel numbers.

Fact 3) The only Decline UO ever saw was Post-Trammel which included the decline after the brief spike seen from  Trammel's first appearance and the continous decline seen after the brief spike that AoS brought.

Those are facts and indisputable because they are supported by all of the actual information that is even remotely reliable. There is no reliable information out there that supports the "Theory" that UO was in a decline pre-trammel. The only people that even have any belief in this theory are those that A) Never followed UO B) Never Played UO or C) Did not play Pre-Trammel, or a combination of either A and B or A and C.

 

UO never saw a decline of any sort until AFTER Trammel hit the scene. This is Fact.

All true yes when talking about absolute subscription numbers. But then again the entire MMOG genre was exploding at that time.

If you look at it in relative terms, UO had lost over 50% of its market share within just a few months of EQ's release. It also polarized the community.

Its a moot point though unless anyone can prove that some quality of playerbase actually changed as a result of it.

That's actually not true when talking about subscription numbers.

"ORIGIN Systems(TM), an Electronic Arts (Nasdaq:ERTS) development studio, today announced that with the release of its latest expansion pack, Ultima Online(TM): Age of Shadows(TM), Ultima Online(TM) (UO) has surpassed 250,000 subscribers.

This number of active players, the highest ever in the five-year history of the game, was achieved due to the enthusiastic reception of UO: Age of Shadows, which enables players to design and build their own houses. In addition, the game provides two new professions and an exciting new realm to explore and settle."

That was March 14th, 2003.

Trammel went live... April 3rd, 2000

The highest subscription levels were recorded 3 years (well 1 month short) after Trammel launched.  Even I had quit by then but... that's the fact.

Now if you want to talk about a decline in me wanting to play.. I can agree that its a fact..

There used to be an actual timeline on uo.com that showed what subscriber number they hit and when.  Its apparantly been deleted since Mythic took over the site.  I actually found it after someone claimed the peak was when AoS hit (which for me was hard to believe).  To be honest when it hit 150,000 shortly after Trammel (150k was the peak at that time) it never declined.. it continued to grow until the AoS peak and then declined.  The Pre-Trammel peak was 110,000'ish subs.. so AoS's breif "peak" as you worded it slightly more than double the pre-trammel "non declined" numbers.

*I* preferred the game during its first year or two.  I did play for 2 hours after AoS launched .. I had quit mid 2002 or so.  It had to have been the worst expansion and the one with the most issue... So the fact it peaked then (and I no longer wanted to play.. was a huge UO fan) really does amaze me.

UO was the best MMO I've ever played (first few years)... nothing else has come close.  The best PvP .. everything.. imho.

However, to claim that there wasn't a serious dent in the population from mid 1998 and especially after March of 1999... to me is just ignoring the obvious.  Sonoma's Friday Night Fights in Oasis desert were a ghost town then.. as opposed to a sea of people stacked many deep..

I personally didn't find any appeal to EQ.. so I stayed until the game changed so much I just couldn't play it.

Originally posted by Antarious

Originally posted by Aganazer

Originally posted by GrayGhost79

Fact 1) UO pre-trammel was never in a decline.

Fact 2) Trammel briefly increased subs but then reverted back to the Pre-Trammel numbers.

Fact 3) The only Decline UO ever saw was Post-Trammel which included the decline after the brief spike seen from  Trammel's first appearance and the continous decline seen after the brief spike that AoS brought.

Those are facts and indisputable because they are supported by all of the actual information that is even remotely reliable. There is no reliable information out there that supports the "Theory" that UO was in a decline pre-trammel. The only people that even have any belief in this theory are those that A) Never followed UO B) Never Played UO or C) Did not play Pre-Trammel, or a combination of either A and B or A and C.

 

UO never saw a decline of any sort until AFTER Trammel hit the scene. This is Fact.

All true yes when talking about absolute subscription numbers. But then again the entire MMOG genre was exploding at that time.

If you look at it in relative terms, UO had lost over 50% of its market share within just a few months of EQ's release. It also polarized the community.

Its a moot point though unless anyone can prove that some quality of playerbase actually changed as a result of it.

 

That's actually not true when talking about subscription numbers.

"ORIGIN Systems(TM), an Electronic Arts (Nasdaq:ERTS) development studio, today announced that with the release of its latest expansion pack, Ultima Online(TM): Age of Shadows(TM), Ultima Online(TM) (UO) has surpassed 250,000 subscribers.

This number of active players, the highest ever in the five-year history of the game, was achieved due to the enthusiastic reception of UO: Age of Shadows, which enables players to design and build their own houses. In addition, the game provides two new professions and an exciting new realm to explore and settle."

 

That was March 14th, 2003.

 

Trammel went live... April 3rd, 2000

 

The highest subscription levels were recorded 3 years (well 1 month short) after Trammel launched.  Even I had quit by then but... that's the fact.

Now if you want to talk about a decline in me wanting to play.. I can agree that its a fact..

There used to be an actual timeline on uo.com that showed what subscriber number they hit and when.  Its apparantly been deleted since Mythic took over the site.  I actually found it after someone claimed the peak was when AoS hit (which for me was hard to believe).  To be honest when it hit 150,000 shortly after Trammel (150k was the peak at that time) it never declined.. it continued to grow until the AoS peak and then declined.  The Pre-Trammel peak was 110,000'ish subs.. so AoS's breif "peak" as you worded it slightly more than double the pre-trammel "non declined" numbers.

*I* preferred the game during its first year or two.  I did play for 2 hours after AoS launched .. I had quit mid 2002 or so.  It had to have been the worst expansion and the one with the most issue... So the fact it peaked then (and I no longer wanted to play.. was a huge UO fan) really does amaze me.

UO was the best MMO I've ever played (first few years)... nothing else has come close.  The best PvP .. everything.. imho.

However, to claim that there wasn't a serious dent in the population from mid 1998 and especially after March of 1999... to me is just ignoring the obvious.  Sonoma's Friday Night Fights in Oasis desert were a ghost town then.. as opposed to a sea of people stacked many deep..

I personally didn't find any appeal to EQ.. so I stayed until the game changed so much I just couldn't play it.

1998 went from 100k+ to over 150k in 1999. This isn't me calling you a liar or anything, your shard may have had less activity. The sub numbers continued to grow though. My 2 main shards were growing more and more every Day. Pacific and Lake Superior.

I remember that press release about 250k, because it came about a month after I quit.    I lasted about a month after AOS.

The original poster makes some decent points about why it's hard to get a high sub rate for an FFA PvP game.

However, things have changed a bit since UO. There are more people, with more computers, with more internet connections, that know about MMORPGs and want to play them than in the UO days. So, even if it's a small percentage of total MMORPG players that want a good FFA PvP game, it could still be a large enough audience to make the game successful.

Not WoW successful, but enough to break even, or make a profit.

Originally posted by Rasputin

Originally posted by Azrile

you can look at mmochart.org or whatever that site is. Note that I said that it started increasing when trammel was 'announced'. Subscription were dropping, and then turned around about 6 months before the actual release of trammel.

 

That is such a load of bullshit. If you checked out MMOGChart yourself, you will see that not ONCE prior to Trammel did UO see a decline. NOT ONCE!

I can't believe you refer to a source, that DISPROVES your claim. What is your real motivation?

 

A few enhancements of the MMOGCharts I made once upon a time:

www.mercenaries.ws/Subscriptions-mod.gif

www.mercenaries.ws/Subscriptions-mod2.gif

Please point me to the spot where UO had a decline prior to Trammel (UO:R). It doesn't exist. On the other hand, once Trammel released, the increase was broken off, almost to a stagnation, from an increase rate, that matched EQ. This was caused by all the old players leaving.

UO topped off forever subscription-wise some 6 months after Trammel, and THEN began the decline.

Azrile, why don't you answer my post instead?

We still need proof of your claims, that UO was dying when they made Trammel.

Before we get that, all you say is invalid.

Originally posted by GrayGhost79

1998 went from 100k+ to over 150k in 1999. This isn't me calling you a liar or anything, your shard may have had less activity. The sub numbers continued to grow though. My 2 main shards were growing more and more every Day. Pacific and Lake Superior.

At the point of UO:R (Trammel), UO had 180k subscribers. It topped off forever 6 months later only 45k higher (225k) (there was a a very brief spike at 250k, but that was so temporary and right after an expansion, that I am discounting it as insignificant).

Until Azrile answers this, he cannot be taken seriously, as all he has is unfounded opinions - there are plenty of those on the internet