Originally posted by UNATCOII

 

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Originally posted by Sovrath
I don't remember the last time I heard someone get excited about a game because it had ceramics or glass blowing as a major part of the game. This just smells of a hold over from the early days of swg. And as my friend said "it felt like a job... I already had a job... so I quit".

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It's obvious that you don't do anything else in MMOs to notice, even in one game...

94+ pages of hardcore tradeskillers and sellers

The guild owner of the guild I was in has 3 Station accounts, and every alt he has is a crafter, and the main is one of the most wealthiest players in EQ2. He's so hardcore, he bought another guild and powerleveling it basically by his army of alts, and those who he pays to help craft.

So yes, there are gamers who get all excited about crafting, and selling what they crafted.

Ok that's great but what you really are talking about are a concentrated group of sellers and traders on one forum. Not spread out over the various types of games that they might be interested in. this is not to dismiss the fact that there are people who enjoy doing this but I don't see them filling up one whole game.

And yes "it's obvious" that I don't do anything else because I find crafting and sellng beyond tedious. I had 4+ years of selling and making money in Lineage 2. Most boring part of that game. Collecting bits so that I could make bits to then get more bits to make a larger bit to sell.

Sorry, but more power to you if that's what you like to do. I think I'd rather have some adventure and some exploring over collecting bits. It's almost akin to making spreadsheets to keep track of every area that one can find Cherry wood. Take that Dark Lord!

And again, I don't really see Conan, Elric, Gandalf, Fafhrd, Athos, Jason, etc crafting. I don't remember when I saw a young kid that said "oh boy, the new fanstasy sci-fi horror epic is out  where there are 15 chapters of wheeling and dealing. After that there is wood collecting. None of that captures the excitement that is normally associated with this genre.

I think players who are crafters obviously love it and are pretty hardcore about it but I don't think you are in a majority of the gameplayers.

So "no" I don't see devs supplanting solo material so that it could be more crafter friendly. Add a more interesting crafting system where I can design (within a certain scope) weapons and armor and a mini-game to make it and then you've got me. Especially if we are talking about crafting real epic items.

There should be the slaying of a dragon in order to get the scales to make a great shield or set of armor. The conqering of a demon for his talons to forge a great spear. If anything, crafters should be bargaining with adventurers to procure these items for them.

I once had a neverwinter nights character generator. Part of it was the ability to pick weapons and change various parts (or armor) and color various parts. I would fool around with it for hours. Now THAT's crafting. It's creative. Crafting, real crafting is about creativity and artistry along with actual craftsmanship. I've yet to see anything close in these games.

 To be honest, I only read the first page and skimmed the second.  I don't really have the time to read the full set of posts that have been made.

In my time as playing MMOs, I have found several reasons that I tend to solo.  

Some games, it's just faster to solo and use the game as a chat mechanism, this is especially the case in the low levels when grouping/partying may not be common.  I know in Final Fantasy XI, I always level from 1-10 on my own since very few people actually party during that time and the XP share wouldn't be worth while during those levels.

In World of Warcraft, I solo not because I wanted to, but because I had to.  What I saw was that people solo everywhere.  I'd go looking for instance parties and no one would do them except for the first one in Westfall.  As the game grew older, fewer people played level 1-60 because everyone had level 70 (now working on level 80) characters.  Because of this groups were a rare commodity from level 20-50ish, which is what really turned me away from the game.

LOTRO I soloed in just because there really wasn't a reason to party except when doing the storyline quests.  Although I consider myself a casual player, I don't like spending most of my time soloing.

Those are really the only reasons that I ever played solo, though sometimes the reasons were carried over to other MMOs.

Originally posted by Majestico

Yes, this is a leading question. 

I finally got a next-gen console and have been in heaven so far with Mass Effect, Fable II, Lost Odyessy, The Force Unleashed, and to a much lesser extent; Quake 4.

Now as you may be aware from my sig, my main MMO at the moment is Lotro.  Which I have noticed panders more and more towards the solo friendly player.  Now before anyone bombards me with posts about Lotro being a casual friendly game, etxc, I alreadt know this.  It was one of the reasons why I choose it.

However, I have noticed more and more that this 'casual' style of play has been getting morphed more and more into the solo play tag.

Whether by design or not, I just had to wonder why someone would choose to play an MMO mostly solo.

And please bear in mind that hear is where the question is aimed.  To those people who blindly ignore any other player, unless of course a quest is required.  Oh, you need a party to finish off an epic story, then I'll grab a PUG, say very little. if anything, and then bugger off when the quest is done.

Now, please do not answer with posts such as: 'well sometimes I like exploring and doing things on my own' that is very well, and I do it myself, or posts like 'well sometimes I only have an hour to play,'.  Or the classic; 'I like to play in a MMO by myself, and like the idea that the other people are real!' - shy people in an environment that is geared towards you throwing off any social inhibidtions and allowing you to be anyone you want!

So. strictly for those who I initially mentioned.  The ones always solo, unless they absoloute;y have to group.  Why?  Is it some competitive thing?  'Look I can get to max just by solo'.  What reason can there by that makes sense?

Of course, it is your game, and you are entitled to play it any way you choose.

But when I play so  many great single player games, I have to wonder the incentive for the solo gamer.

Serious answers will be appreciated, as I am genuinely interested.

you pretty much answered the question yourself.

i'm paying the same amount as anyone else to play a GAME and enjoy that GAME.

i'm not paying this monthly sub to be forced to play with basement dwellers, children, morons, drama queens, or any of the others that i've been forced to speak with and hang out with (on voice) for endless hours... in order to get the 'good stuff'.

i play as many, or more, hours than many raiders and such; why should i be forced to endlessly repeat the same boring content 50 times with people i honestly can't stand, in order to get the good stuff?

before some "genius" makes a comment about my going play single player games; please, point me to single player games that have the content and updates that eve online and city of heroes have.

if you can't point out single player games of those genre with the content, variety, and updates available in those two games; then your "play a single player game" retort is both moronic and idiotic.

Originally posted by Abrahmm

People solo in MMORPG's because they complete misunderstand the whole MMO part and think they are entitled to not have to interact with anyone yet still be able to achieve the same things.

I think basically, as companies tried harder and harder to make MMO's "casual friendly", they continuously increased the ability to solo. This allowed the single player gamers to play MMO's without actually haveing to play it like an MMO. Crazy right? Why would you want to pay $15 a month to do what you can do in a single player game for the cost of the box.

so which of those single player games allows me to do everything i can do in eve online or city of heroes?

i'm not opposed to the occasional group outing.  but any game that wants to force me to play with someone that's getting yelled at by mommy, or yelling to mommy to bring him stuff to the basement, or with outright no-life-having losers -- that game and company have lost my interest.

Originally posted by Ravanos

Originally posted by wjrasmussen

 

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Originally posted by Majestico
Whether by design or not, I just had to wonder why someone would choose to play an MMO mostly solo.

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And yet they do that. So they don't seem to have a problem with it. So if there is a problem, it's yours.

 

Perhaps it would be better if you just minded your own business and let people enjoy games they way that like to enjoy them and for yourself to enjoy what you enjoy.

 

 

now if only the soloers would take that same advice ... but they wont go to any new MMO forum and ask for group xp bonuses, or raid content and you will have the elite soloers come out of the woodwork flaming you.

just out of curiousity... which games (links included would be nice) that have raids... have 40% or more of the playerbase, actively participating in those raids?  and, to be fair, let's stick to western games please.

i would really like to know which games that bend over backwards to provide "raid" content, are actually bending over backwards to the benefit of the majority of their paying customers?

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Originally posted by Sovrath

Ok that's great but what you really are talking about are a concentrated group of sellers and traders on one forum. Not spread out over the various types of games that they might be interested in. this is not to dismiss the fact that there are people who enjoy doing this but I don't see them filling up one whole game.

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They will when the game's main focus IS crafting and trading.

In MMOs, you don't see the crafters as you will see the fighters, as they're doing what? CRAFTING. That usually means in their home, some guild, or in some remote locale.

When I was playing that F2P game, I would be planting for 8 to 15hrs a day (yes, one seed at a time x 300 -- folks just don't know what TEDIOUS IS UNTIL THEY TRIED THAT!). The only people who saw me regularly were those who couldn't miss a wall of plants! But where I had to do this was in remote locations that offered a huge field to plant.

Just because you don't see the crafters (or the avid harvesters) it doesn't mean they don't exist, they do and in numbers that devs have no choice but to keep the crafting side of the game up (or they'll lose at least 1/3 of the players).

To me the crafting and trading side of MMOs are what's fun, as I can't get that in any other game. If I need to raid, I'll go back to BF2142; COD; CS; AA; and F.E.A.R..

Why do i solo, blam the developers. I play pvp games i group  nearly most of the time, if i got to run through  a bunch of boring assed quests to get to the lvl i need to be at to play the part of the game i enjoy playing then ill solo.

Why solo,

for one im stingy, i want all my loot, so i can buy wtf i need to get to the next step faster. I dont want to quest at all, so i need my loot.

Two, i dont want to be bothered with drama i want to get to where i need to go without some dick  talking about his life story, i dont even care about the games storyline. They are all the same, once youve heard or viewed or wtf ever,  they are all the same stories, with new dresses on them. Boring. so i want to get through this boring time as fast as i can without any slowdowns.

Why do i group with pvp, cause i enjoy the team spirit fighting the ultimate mob in a game with the setting and the items and the skills  i choose to spend my $$ on. When you querst you have to fight the stupid AI.

Ai will always be stupid, it cant reason and improvise. But a human can shock you , and make you say ohh damn, if i did this or that id be alive or dead, and when you defeat a human player the sence of accomplishment, is like nothing else.

I can fight any man for i am on equal terms by my own hand and by my own intellect. On the pvp battlefield i am surrounded by gods and i can be feared. When thats understood you pve players will realise your paper dragon fighting is worth nothing. Its like fighting a retarded half blind man... Now thats something to high five about.

Originally posted by Majestico

Originally posted by neonwire

Most mmos are designed in the same way that single player games are. They tell you a story and you follow the path from beginning to end. The other people in the game are not part of the story and as a result there is no real incentive to involve yourself with them. Parts of a game may very well be easier with a group......in fact some parts of a game may require a group......but in most cases teaming up with people is merely an option that is actually secondary to the game.

The stories in mmos are geared towards the individual player. Every person in the game is playing their own personal copy of the same game. I personally like to get immersed in whatever game I am playing and I find that talking to other players actually breaks that feeling of immersion. It just seems really silly to me to have to go to the effort of comparing my quest list with their quest list and then both having to decide on what we are going to do and then 10 minutes later one of us has completed the quest they needed to do......but hang on! I still need to complete the "Collect 10 crabs" quest......but they have already done that quest and they are off to do the "Bash 20 Boars" quest.....and I dont want to do that quest as I finished it yesterday.......so we part company and I have to repeat the same old crappy conversation with the next Mr or Mrs Anonymous.

So I dont bother with that crap most of the time and just plough my way through the quests on my own and only bother grouping up if I really feel the need to. I think this is why many people dont bother chatting to each other when they are in a PUG. Afterall why should they? What are they gonna say which hasnt already been said before a billion times?

"Hello. Doing the Crab quest? Yep me too. Lets go. Done it. What do you wanna do next? Oh I've done that. I dont wanna do it again. It was boring. I'm off to bash some boars. Cya"

When mmos move away from the single player design concept and actually move more towards being actual roleplaying games where people need to talk to each other and communicate their thoughts in detail to achieve their goals then things will probably change.......but as mmos cater to the solo player then we will continue to see people playing them solo. Cant blame them for playing the game the way it has been designed.

 

Although you put across a sound arguement, this is exactly what I do not understand about people who play MMO's solo.

Let me explain.  I am a casual player, and have found myself solo-ing more and more.  The irony is that my favourite part of the game is teaming up with a bunch of like minded players and exploring the world together, and tackling any quests that get thrown in our way.

Now I don't know which company started this 'casual - solo friendly' trend, I figure it might actually have been Lotro (my current no 1 game).  I then began to notice that it was not just me that was not teaming up, it seemed to be common.  And when any group did form, it was like a mad race to finish the instance!  Hey there is a quest giver- let's ignore the text and just accept (which I hate).  I mean, what is the rush?

So like you, I solo a lot.  And then I thought, 'wait a miute, I am paying money for the priveldge of this?'.   Oh, but people like to solo, so that they can explore the world, and do the same bog standard quests, and kill monsters, and well, that is about it!  Now - let us compare this with a game like Fable 2, I played that game for hours the other night, and did literally dozens of fun things, too many to write here, and none of which even involved combat, or repetitive play! 

Seriously - after playing that game, I have realised that we are getting screwed by the MMO companies.  They could easily populate their games with fun and intriguing things for us to do, rather than just the mindless crap we already do.  Why not include casinos?  Bar-room games?  Proper story-lines?  Proper in game jobs?  Real estate management?  Aging characters?  Wandering incidents so that your explorations would never be the same?  And the most easy for any dev to implement, and which would have have the most dramatic effect in game - player alignment!

These are just a few suggestions.  There could be a million more, and with new innovations every month to keep a game fresh.

This genre has without doubt the most potential of any out there, but it is stagnating, has been for a while now.  Whilst we are content to keep forking out our monthly cash for the same brain-dead crap, do you really think any company is going to change?

For a genre that relies on being social - it is a sad state of affairs that it is its own society that is letting it down.

Will Darkfall offer the next genetic leap?  Not if the moronic kids who just want to grief everyone flood it.  Which would be a great shame.

Should everything be combat-centric?  Perhaps the answer lies elsewhere.

I think Neonwire said it best with his last paragraph:

 

'When mmos move away from the single player design concept and actually move more towards being actual roleplaying games where people need to talk to each other and communicate their thoughts in detail to achieve their goals then things will probably change.......but as mmos cater to the solo player then we will continue to see people playing them solo. Cant blame them for playing the game the way it has been designed.'
 

I know that Bioware are making a MMO, (actually wish it was not in the SKOTOR Universe, even though I am a fan).  If any of them will bring something new to the table, then hopefully it will be these guys.

just for the fun of it... to answer your question in red... ultima online, even before the carebear ways hit it hard.

i had characters both in guilds and solo, in old time UO.  didn't really have a lot of trouble doing what i wanted solo, vs when i was grouped.  and when i WAS groupd, 95% of the time, it was for pvp.

why do i solo?  because i just spent and hour and a half looking for a damn group and i want to kill at least one thing before i log off

Originally posted by slask777

People solo cause pugs suck most of the time and post-wow every mmo seem to favour soloing and the casuals compared to grouping and the hardcore players. Kind of a paradox though that people prefer to solo in an mmo.

hardcore player does NOT equal a raider or someone that enjoys groups or large groups.

odds are that i put in more hours playing MMOs to relax, than the hardcore raider types do... why should they be rewarded because they live in a basement and enjoy the company of bizarre nerds and children (all on vent yammering endlessly) ?

again, i don't see where there was a whole lot (outside of group pvp) in old school UO, that i couldn't solo... not my fault everyone looks at the screw-up that was EQ and thinks that game set some sort of standard for gameplay...

   Soloing does not mean you are playing alone as in a single player game.  I solo, but I constantly interact with others, be it in the chat channels, auction house or just helping someone in trouble.  While not an avid roleplayer, my characters usually have their own story and background, and I find it a lot stranger to randomly risk my life with strangers in the game than to do things on my own.

  Would you just group with strangers and put yourself into circumstances where one mistake could cause your death and the death of others ?  I know I wouldn't and since I care for all my characters and hate dying in any game (no matter what the official death penalty is), I refuse to put my characters into situations where they will be depending on undependable strangers.

  Plus I like being the master of my own story, and hate the predetermined recipes many group encounters have:  you stand their, at this point cast spell X, then buff the tank, then wait ....  sigh, not my idea of fun ....

Forced grouping will always fail now days to solo play due to lack of reward, being time intensive, and repetative.  Now days forced grouping means raiding.  For most raiding fails due ot the three above problems.  Games are not story based, as solo player games are, they are item based.  At this point and time companies do not have the ability to make the MMO's story based.

Hi. I'm Teflon, and I solo in MMO's.

I'm not sure "why" I do it per se; the egotist is me wants to say it's because I don't like being limited by other peoples ineptitude but that's a partial truth that I'm sure we've all experienced at some time or another while being forced to resort to PUGs to get something done.

I like single-player games; and I like to be the protagonist in those games. I don't like to feel like I'm the Robin to someones Batman. I want my achievements to be just that.. my achievements rather than "I was there too!".

I don't like logging on and spending half of my play-time scratting around looking for groups.

All that said, I can understand why people would ask why I don't just save myself the monthly subscription and go play a single-player offline game and well, that's a complex answer so you'll have to forgive me if it's a bit hard to decipher.

When I play offline games, I feel like I'm playing in an isolated snapshot of someone's imagination; a shard of consciousness that, be it ever so detailed, is little more than a compartmentalised artistic vision that has been abandoned and left to drift. It's a flower that has been cut from a stem; it has a finite beauty, it won't last.

MMOs just have a different feel. The other players, the constant patching and tweaking.. even the drama and politics; I don't actually care about any of it, but just knowing it's there has an impact.

I always played solo because I HAD to play solo. If I wanted to progress at all I had to go out and farm for money or quest for gear. It took hours just to get a PuG together and since I couldn't stand them usually I rarely gave the effort unless I needed to run a dungeon or do an elite quest. WoW may have 10 million+ subs but it is one of the loneliest games I've ever played.

On Halo xbox live I also generall join games alone, FFA playlists. Because it's either join alone or get a group, and PuGs are even worse in Halo imo. The majority of people in the game have no concept of teamwork whatsoever.

So while some people may prefer to play alone, others are basically forced to.

Originally posted by UNATCOII

 

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So yes, there are gamers who get all excited about crafting, and selling what they crafted.

Yes i am one of those who find it fun and challenging to produce items in game and strive to produce the best items, That is one of the things I loved about pre cu Star Wars Galaxies, it rewarded crafters who spent time looking for the best material to make their wares. One of the best complements i ever got was someone in swg complained my production FWG5 pistols were better then his Krayt ones.