Well I've just finished reading a post saying how responsive SOE is to their players.  In case anyone has any doubts, here's yet another quote from a former SOE dev that demonstrates just how little SOE thinks of their players.

The context was the removal of creature handlers due to the NGE, after they had waited so long for a promised revamp and just purchased a new expansion for new creatures to tame, and new loot that was specific to their profession.  Remember how we were told there was in depth data-mining, player feedback and consultation?  Here's how it really went down, from Helios' post at MMOfringe.com:

"One conversation between Rubenfield and myself went something like... 'Me: Uh, Dan... if we have a reticle on screen what about pets? Dan: Cut them.'"

Just like that, a new expansion was turned into scrap, a profession revamp was torched and 2 years worth of players' investment was thrown in the trash. 

That's how monumental decisions get made at SOE apparently, and it shows how much thought they put into honouring players' investments, accomplishments and online experience.

That kind of culture seems inbred at SOE...atleast in regards to SWG management/development.

Rubenfield, Cao, and Smed are wastes of oxygen.  True human debris.

SOE doesn't consider what their players want.  They calculate how much money they will make.  With the NGE they were willing to lose the WHOLE 200K+ people who were playing the CU because they thought the NGE "target audience" would bring them more.

That failed.

With the new RMT "macrotranscam' scheme and TCG online gambling system, they are willing apparently to dump their EQ2 player base for a smaller number of masochist addicted gamblers who will net them more money than the 100K or so subs EQ2 has now.

Prediction:  That will fail too.

Fact of the matter is that failing to please your existing players ALWAYS leads to failure.  You simply can't run a service business (which is what a MMO is) which requires your customer to re-purchase your product monthly in the way SOE does, with the "F-U!" attitude they have.  Which is why they have jack squat for subs these days compared to 3-4 years ago.

I guess now they think that scamming people with RMT crap up front will make up for the fact that they will piss them off and lose them later.  Won't work, but in their minds it will. 

SOE has needed a complete management purge for years.  Why hasn't it gotten it?  The same morons from Smed on down keep making the SAME EXACT mistakes over and over and over.  SOE's fortunes don't have a snowball's chance in hell of reversing so long as the same captain is at the helm, with the navigational talent to always steer for icebergs.

So, what that tells me is just exactly how much decision making power that $OE Austin actually has.  There was no, "I'll call San Diego" or "we'll have to ck with LA".  It was just "cut them" and the discussion was complete.

As much as SOE's business decisions puzzle me, and I honestly think that who ever is making decisions there is utterly incompetent, the OP's one line post just isn't enough info to make any decisions off of.

Where is the rest of the conversation?  I can't judge any conversation off of one sentence.

With that out of the way, the RMT thing, is retarded, and will alienate what is left of their loyal playerbase...NGE was a total fiasco, the card thing is a bad move to.

Basically, SOE should just quit..or at least fire everyone working for them and bring in fresh talent.  At least at the higher tiers.

$0e is a dinosour that is waitin' to go extinct.. their old school business "tactics" and mindset is truelly fossil...

Originally posted by daelnor

As much as SOE's business decisions puzzle me, and I honestly think that who ever is making decisions there is utterly incompetent, the OP's one line post just isn't enough info to make any decisions off of.

Where is the rest of the conversation?  I can't judge any conversation off of one sentence.

With that out of the way, the RMT thing, is retarded, and will alienate what is left of their loyal playerbase...NGE was a total fiasco, the card thing is a bad move to.

Basically, SOE should just quit..or at least fire everyone working for them and bring in fresh talent.  At least at the higher tiers.

Here's the conversation for some context, Helios words in red:

"Everything about the NGE reeked of wow-imitation, except the "everyone is on crack" combat system which was a bad imitation of Battlefront.

Incidental.

Even the reintroduction of "skills" was done in a WOW talent tree fashion rather than the basic box+4444 branches+master box tree system we all knew and loved.

Fair enough. As far as I remember (whatever that means), the NGE design was a series of decisions driven by previous decisions. One conversation between Rubenfield and myself went something like... "Me: Uh, Dan... if we have a reticle on screen what about pets? Dan: Cut them.".

The substitution of particle effects for animations was also very WOWish and gave the game a more cartoony appearance even.

Yeah, maybe. But retooling a metric ton of animations takes a really, really, really, really long time. Churning out a bunch of particles doesn't. "

Original post found here:

http://mmofringe.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=282&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=30

For more context, Helios was trying to deny that SOE was attempting to copy WoW deliberately.  He says this despite a magazine article I have right here that highlights SOE's intent to revamp the game and make it more like WoW, beginning in fact with the CU.  He also says this despite going to 9 iconic professions (like Wow), adding beast mastery (like Wow), changing the game to a loot based linear game (like WoW), changing the skill bar to look like Wow's and putting an experience meter at the bottom of the screen, exactly like WoW's.  This is all in addition to the talent trees (like Wow) and the cartoony particle effects mentioned above. 

If it looks like Wow (albeit a broken imitation) and your marketting says it's like WoW, it's pretty hard to believe that the intent was not to make it more like WoW.   To give Helios credit, maybe copying WoW was never his personal intention.  I'm open to that.  If he thinks that SOE was on the same page though, I think he missed a memo.

Despite the, "we never meant to copy WoW," focus of the conversation, it was the callous attitude behind cutting creature handlers that got my attention, and the way Helios' disclosure contradicts the official P.R. at the time.  Tbh, nearly every time a former SOE employee opens his mouth, it seems to contradict SOE or LEC's official marketting statements.  I guess that's why they're so big on NDA's, which don't seem to be very effective btw.

If you ask me, Smed should once and for all just be held accountable for any time he has ever made a sale by lying to his customers.  Everyone that signed an NDA to keep it all hush-hush should be given immunity.

Helios trying to convince us that so many dumbass SOE decisions were NOT about making SWG more like WoW?

How stupid does he imagine we are?

All you have to do is play WoW up to level 10 to fully appreicate just how much like WoW SWG has been striving to be.  Heck, well before that, you can see it...the UI is deliberately WoWlike but, of course, in standard SOE fashion, not nearly as functional.

You see, it's not so much that SWG tried to imitate WoW.  It's that they did such a shitty, amateurish job of it.

In case you haven't noticed, SOE's Devs aren't very talented...

Originally posted by salvaje

In case you haven't noticed, SOE's Devs aren't very talented...

 

I was just reading a post from Deadmeat where he talked about the dev team (and SOE as an institution) losing the ability to understand key aspects of the game's code.   A lot of the best developers left early on, with more considering other options as the game's direction went from bad to worse.

I've often wondered if this was one of the reasons why they couldn't re-implement the pre-cu code.  I"m sure the people that wrote that were some of the first to leave.

I know people often claim that SOE would have back up copies of the code.  I think that's probably true (though you never really know with them).  However, if you have no one on staff who understands the code, I can understand their reluctance to use it as the game's foundation.

It would have helped a lot probably for them to just come clean with that on one hand, if it's true,  On the other, I could understand why it would be embarassing to say, "well we can't really use the pre-cu code, because no one around here can understand it."  Instead an LEC rep just told us all, we can't use the pre-cu code for "technical" "not business" reasons.  Too bad they alienated some of their best talent with their management decisions.  Players aren't the only ones alienated by Smed and they way he has managed this game btw, not by a long-shot.

Originally posted by ArcAngel3

Originally posted by salvaje

In case you haven't noticed, SOE's Devs aren't very talented...

 

I was just reading a post from Deadmeat where he talked about the dev team (and SOE as an institution) losing the ability to understand key aspects of the game's code.   A lot of the best developers left early on, with more considering other options as the game's direction went from bad to worse.

I've often wondered if this was one of the reasons why they couldn't re-implement the pre-cu code.  I"m sure the people that wrote that were some of the first to leave.

I know people often claim that SOE would have back up copies of the code.  I think that's probably true (though you never really know with them).  However, if you have no one on staff who understands the code, I can understand their reluctance to use it as the game's foundation.

It would have helped a lot probably for them to just come clean with that on one hand, if it's true,  On the other, I could understand why it would be embarassing to say, "well we can't really use the pre-cu code, because no one around here can understand it."  Instead an LEC rep just told us all, we can't use the pre-cu code for "technical" "not business" reasons.  Too bad they alienated some of their best talent with their management decisions.  Players aren't the only ones alienated by Smed and they way he has managed this game btw, not by a long-shot.

 

If this is true (and I have no reason to question it) it's an even more damning indictment of SOE's pathetic excuse for management.

Documentation of software is a serious achilles heel for these projects.  For one thing, not insisting on solid documentation of your code means you're more and more dependent on the memories of your coders, and if they leave, for any reason, you're not going to be able to reverse engineer any of your own code in anything approaching a timely manner.

Part of this, I'm sure, has to do with the pressures of artificial deadlines imposed by the marketing asshats of Lucas Arts who wanted code by this date to coinicide with some broader Lucas marketing campaign, like the hype rush for Ep III.  They want all this stuff on the market at the same time to take advantage of the hype but also to stampede people into buying bantha poodoo in a box labeled "Star Wars".  So the coders are rushed, they cut corners, management doesn't hold their feet to the fire to document their code, but may actually demand they not do so in order to speed things up and make that all important deadline.

Originally posted by daelnor

As much as SOE's business decisions puzzle me, and I honestly think that who ever is making decisions there is utterly incompetent, the OP's one line post just isn't enough info to make any decisions off of.

Where is the rest of the conversation?  I can't judge any conversation off of one sentence.

With that out of the way, the RMT thing, is retarded, and will alienate what is left of their loyal playerbase...NGE was a total fiasco, the card thing is a bad move to.

Basically, SOE should just quit..or at least fire everyone working for them and bring in fresh talent.  At least at the higher tiers.

as i understand it no "known" talent will touch them.  thats why they end up hiring kids straight out of design school. remember thats whos running swg now. guys right out of college.  you to can ruin good games!

www.youtube.com/watch

It's all so simple and so clear after watching SOE over the years.

SOE is the ONLY gaming company that I know of that sets out to pi** off it's customers and drive them away.

The kind of mentality that figures to say "F**k You" to longtime, subscribing customers on a repeated basis in favor of a different crowd who would supposedly rampage in to replace them.

After all, money from a newbie customer is the same as that from a once loyal player who just left in disgust.

"Something's rotten in the state of SOE"

They never have learned that it is cheaper to keep a current customer than it is to obtain a new one.

Originally posted by Valeran

They never have learned that it is cheaper to keep a current customer than it is to obtain a new one.

They've also never learned that word of mouth advertising works both ways.

Just look at this forum, where disgruntled former customers spread the word, and are periodically reinforced by NEW disgruntled former customers.

Originally posted by suske

Originally posted by daelnor

As much as SOE's business decisions puzzle me, and I honestly think that who ever is making decisions there is utterly incompetent, the OP's one line post just isn't enough info to make any decisions off of.

Where is the rest of the conversation?  I can't judge any conversation off of one sentence.

With that out of the way, the RMT thing, is retarded, and will alienate what is left of their loyal playerbase...NGE was a total fiasco, the card thing is a bad move to.

Basically, SOE should just quit..or at least fire everyone working for them and bring in fresh talent.  At least at the higher tiers.

as i understand it no "known" talent will touch them.  thats why they end up hiring kids straight out of design school. remember thats whos running swg now. guys right out of college.  you to can ruin good games!

www.youtube.com/watch

After how they treated Raph, would YOU want to go work for Smed if you were an established industry veteran with a reputation and the ability to CHOOSE your assignment? 

I think not.

The bulk of the dwindling veteran talent that is any good SOE has on EQ/EQ2.  And one wonders how long they will keep THOSE guys given the betrayal of the RMT store, this was almost as big a stab in the back as the NGE and has the EQ community pissed.

So, yeah, when they hire they basically are plucking kids out of The Dork Lord's community college "I wanna be a NGE Dev" 90 day wonder course.  Or another equivalent.

(remember when he mentioned that he taught MMO development at a community college in Austin?)

Originally posted by salvaje

Originally posted by suske

Originally posted by daelnor

As much as SOE's business decisions puzzle me, and I honestly think that who ever is making decisions there is utterly incompetent, the OP's one line post just isn't enough info to make any decisions off of.

Where is the rest of the conversation?  I can't judge any conversation off of one sentence.

With that out of the way, the RMT thing, is retarded, and will alienate what is left of their loyal playerbase...NGE was a total fiasco, the card thing is a bad move to.

Basically, SOE should just quit..or at least fire everyone working for them and bring in fresh talent.  At least at the higher tiers.

as i understand it no "known" talent will touch them.  thats why they end up hiring kids straight out of design school. remember thats whos running swg now. guys right out of college.  you to can ruin good games!

www.youtube.com/watch

 

After how they treated Raph, would YOU want to go work for Smed if you were an established industry veteran with a reputation and the ability to CHOOSE your assignment? 

I think not.

The bulk of the dwindling veteran talent that is any good SOE has on EQ/EQ2.  And one wonders how long they will keep THOSE guys given the betrayal of the RMT store, this was almost as big a stab in the back as the NGE and has the EQ community pissed.

So, yeah, when they hire they basically are plucking kids out of The Dork Lord's community college "I wanna be a NGE Dev" 90 day wonder course.  Or another equivalent.

(remember when he mentioned that he taught MMO development at a community college in Austin?)

 

 

"Truth be known Smed nor the Devs even know who Badger is

Probably more of them know who *I* am truth be known since I'm regarded as SOE enemy #1."

ROFL

I wouldn't mention EQ2 and "known talent" still at SOE.  Anyone that was "good" on the EQ2 team left already and are over at 38 Studio's with Schilling etc

38 Studio's has pretty much plundered SOE.. A couple of SWG were with spacetime studio's before NCSoft killed that contract.  I'm not sure about them.

Besides Raph the ones not at 38 Studio's are at Bioware...

That's the thing we can be upset that they destroyed "our game" but it cost SOE a hell of a lot more than it cost us.  Not only did they lose subscribers.. they lost a LOT of talent.

The original SWG team and later when Gordon Walton came over.. was probably one of the most experienced teams that was "together" at least imho with MMO's.

Chris Cao is like in charge of DC Universe development.. can you imagine how badly that game is going to do?  I mean honestly I would rather go find someone with NO experience than have Cao on a project.

Oh well glad I don't own Sony stock... and I certainly never wanted to wrok for them.

Oddly SOE got a certain mentality when EQ1 was "the mmo" at least for North America.  Back when they customer service people would tell you "if you don't like it.. leave" rather than deal with things.

Somehow they never got the clue they weren't on top of the "only option" and haven't been for years.  Kinda to bad since they had some nice MMO's once upon a time.

*note* EQ2 is still a decent game but you can see things change as time goes by and the "real eq2 team" is long gone...

Chris Cao is the 'Creative' Director of SOE's Austin studio.  He's been in that spot for a few years now.  The DC Comics game has more than just Chris Cao going against it.  The constant flow of post NGE developers through the dev team, and that they have gone through at least foru lead designers, doesn't bode well for any sort of consistent development decisions.  Add on to that the fact that SOE's management (the Smed and such) have been directing the creative development of the game from the conception stage of development, and you have the Frankenstein's Monster of MMOs on the way.

Given the brilliant ideas that have come from SOE's management in the past few years (the NGE, Station Exchange, Station Cash, etc.,), the DCU game is set to be one of the most entertaining products to hit the market in a long time, as long as you're not a player of it.

Originally posted by ArcAngel3

Well I've just finished reading a post saying how responsive SOE is to their players.  In case anyone has any doubts, here's yet another quote from a former SOE dev that demonstrates just how little SOE thinks of their players.

The context was the removal of creature handlers due to the NGE, after they had waited so long for a promised revamp and just purchased a new expansion for new creatures to tame, and new loot that was specific to their profession.  Remember how we were told there was in depth data-mining, player feedback and consultation?  Here's how it really went down, from Helios' post at MMOfringe.com:

"One conversation between Rubenfield and myself went something like... 'Me: Uh, Dan... if we have a reticle on screen what about pets? Dan: Cut them.'"

Just like that, a new expansion was turned into scrap, a profession revamp was torched and 2 years worth of players' investment was thrown in the trash. 

That's how monumental decisions get made at SOE apparently, and it shows how much thought they put into honouring players' investments, accomplishments and online experience.

 

sony has never been responsive to players in any game ever.  to be fair soe does have strong points. server uptime/ping and  publishing/logistics. but they never figured out how to deal with customers and that is the most important thing ever. players will put up with lag, driving across town to find the game, server down time... and just about anything as long as the gameplay is good and the customer service is passable. even now soe could be turned around by cutting off the dead limbs and hiring in some people who have people skills.

Originally posted by ArcAngel3

Well I've just finished reading a post saying how responsive SOE is to their players.  In case anyone has any doubts, here's yet another quote from a former SOE dev that demonstrates just how little SOE thinks of their players.

The context was the removal of creature handlers due to the NGE, after they had waited so long for a promised revamp and just purchased a new expansion for new creatures to tame, and new loot that was specific to their profession.  Remember how we were told there was in depth data-mining, player feedback and consultation?  Here's how it really went down, from Helios' post at MMOfringe.com:

"One conversation between Rubenfield and myself went something like... 'Me: Uh, Dan... if we have a reticle on screen what about pets? Dan: Cut them.'"

Just like that, a new expansion was turned into scrap, a profession revamp was torched and 2 years worth of players' investment was thrown in the trash. 

That's how monumental decisions get made at SOE apparently, and it shows how much thought they put into honouring players' investments, accomplishments and online experience.

 

Can you put up a link to this conversation please?
 

Jeff Freeman.

Who was the person who revealed that Smed, Rubenfield, and Cao were the assholes who brought us the NGE.

Originally posted by hubertgrove

Originally posted by ArcAngel3

Well I've just finished reading a post saying how responsive SOE is to their players.  In case anyone has any doubts, here's yet another quote from a former SOE dev that demonstrates just how little SOE thinks of their players.

The context was the removal of creature handlers due to the NGE, after they had waited so long for a promised revamp and just purchased a new expansion for new creatures to tame, and new loot that was specific to their profession.  Remember how we were told there was in depth data-mining, player feedback and consultation?  Here's how it really went down, from Helios' post at MMOfringe.com:

"One conversation between Rubenfield and myself went something like... 'Me: Uh, Dan... if we have a reticle on screen what about pets? Dan: Cut them.'"

Just like that, a new expansion was turned into scrap, a profession revamp was torched and 2 years worth of players' investment was thrown in the trash. 

That's how monumental decisions get made at SOE apparently, and it shows how much thought they put into honouring players' investments, accomplishments and online experience.

 

Can you put up a link to this conversation please?
 

Oh hi there Hubert, sorry I haven't check this thread in a little bit--busy marking essays :P.  The link is included in post number 7 of this thread.

It's a conversation between Helios (I think his real name is Kai?) and Dan Rubenfield. 
 

You know, when I look at this thread's title, why do I get a vision of a boardroom full of monkeys banging rocks together?

Originally posted by ArcAngel3

Originally posted by salvaje

In case you haven't noticed, SOE's Devs aren't very talented...

 

I was just reading a post from Deadmeat where he talked about the dev team (and SOE as an institution) losing the ability to understand key aspects of the game's code.   A lot of the best developers left early on, with more considering other options as the game's direction went from bad to worse.

I've often wondered if this was one of the reasons why they couldn't re-implement the pre-cu code.  I"m sure the people that wrote that were some of the first to leave.

I know people often claim that SOE would have back up copies of the code.  I think that's probably true (though you never really know with them).  However, if you have no one on staff who understands the code, I can understand their reluctance to use it as the game's foundation.

It would have helped a lot probably for them to just come clean with that on one hand, if it's true,  On the other, I could understand why it would be embarassing to say, "well we can't really use the pre-cu code, because no one around here can understand it."  Instead an LEC rep just told us all, we can't use the pre-cu code for "technical" "not business" reasons.  Too bad they alienated some of their best talent with their management decisions.  Players aren't the only ones alienated by Smed and they way he has managed this game btw, not by a long-shot.

 

Whether or not they had old code around, which I am sure they do, the problem comes with maintaining that code.  The original dev team over at Verant which developed SWG had a great number of brilliant people.  Brilliance, more often than not, is far from neat and tidy lol.  I am sure the original code for SWG is scary as all hell to look at let alone trying to run through for enhancements and bug fixing.

And yes, Walton and crew, the people that Koster had brought in were on their way out the door shortly after launch and Koster's "Promotion" which took his vision and leadership away from SWG.  They had no one to really direct them and SOE/LA had their own ideas (making swg little more than a way to capitalize on the movies rather than the timeline which the game had been created around).