Originally posted by bodypass

Originally posted by metalhead980

Originally posted by bodypass

No the game has changed a lot. You don't even need to do the 25 mans if you don't want to.
 

I didn't even mention the grouped "class" drops. Loot that is "dropped for different classes" to even lessen the number of runs needed.

Combined with the above I don't know a game with MORE options in its end game. Even capitol raids on enemy cities are "in" these days, although I wouldn't recommend doing them at prime time in the weekends :)).

The only mistake Blizzard made in WotLK was to open up PvP gear on Dec 17th, that was at least one week too late. PvP ers (always a noisy group) complained.

But it proved one thing: a LOT of players are playing Wow for their arena/BG/open world PvP/capitol raids and do a dungeon raid only once a week as a side show.

This last sentence is the BIG difference with the old days of Wow (the BC dated Wow). (and by BC I don't mean Burning Crusade )

 

Well WoW has always had endgame options, but to get the best shit it requires you to farm 25 man raids over and over. I know you dont have to do it. but if u wanna have the  best stuff  thats what you have to do.

Anyway did they change the heroic system? last time I was in game you needed to run heroics a billion times to get the good shit. even if you run different heroics to get badges its still a grind imo.

 Well we will have to wait for Dec 17th (PvP launch), but the best gear now is certainy the highest gladiator PvP gear (rated even) in the game (except for a few legendary drops).

Good as you mention it: the given daily heroics quests alternate. So you only do the ones you like or change runs.

Also both PvP and PVE gear could be chosen as of Sunwell patch 2.4. This to counter the complainers who stood there with BT gear and against the highest PvP gear of Arena and BG's.

The newest thing is the daily quests in BG's, changing heorics, Lake Winterspring coupled with "gear on account". That's a great concept and a first to even more widen the play options.

Another new thing is the 'run around with X tabard". X getting you the reputation in whatever level 80 instance you are in. Again lowering the negative grind feeling.

The next big thing will be the dual spec for classes option (next patch in January ?), it will eliminate the resetting of talents for healers/dps.tank classes. Players can have two specced talent classes. It will NOT be on the fly, but easy in cities to change.

Should be great for competition PvP, raids, solo work and finding groups 'looking for tanks and healers". The spell power stats already replaced the "healing" power stats to introduce this.

 

Damn dude, Blizzard keeps this shit up and Even I'll buy WotLK to check it out and I was as burnt out on WoW as you can be (six 70's high rating arena char and BT char TBC, and a tier 3 warrior with TF in vanilla WoW) Not easy for me to play WoW and get that new mmo feeling again.

Like I said in another thread on the first page I don't hate WOW just hate new devs copying wow over and over.

A couple more changes and WoW maybe good enough for me to make it my MMO to play alongside Eve.

 Community.  Worst I've ever seen in a non-F2P mmo.

The game itself is decent, but gawd...the community needs to just diaf.  So sick of emo guildies who are afraid of challenges and want everything handed to them on a silver platter.  I remember when ZA first came out.  We went in and tried the bear boss, most of us wearing Kara gear.  We almost dropped him, then our MT piped up on Vent and said we weren't ready for ZA and that we should never come back.  He promptly chewed me out for bringing us in there, and chewed me out for trying to explain the fight using strategies from pre-BC raid fights.  He resented the fact that he never raided until BC...he has some sort of WoW inferiority complex.  He literally told me to never refer to pre-BC raids again, ever.  I tried to explain that that's how you learn, from previous encounters and by trying (gasp!!!).  He wanted none of it an left for another guild because we couldn't drop the bear boss on the first try.  The crappy thing is...I know this clown in real life.  It was like trying to deal with a child, and the guy is probably 30 years old with his own kid.  

I've found the game rife with individuals like this.  Yep, definitely community.  Even causes people you know in RL to act like morons.

---

Originally posted by metalhead980

Like I said in another thread on the first page I don't hate WOW just hate new devs copying wow over and over.

---

LOL! Oh the irony...
 

Originally posted by Calind0r

Ok I'll start by saying I'm surprised at how much credit WoW gets from a place like this about MMO's

Are you serious? WoW's name is heresy around here.

Originally posted by kikinchaz

1. The anti-wow flamers who do nothing but make threads like this, because hating on wow is the latest cool trend despite if they've actually played the game or not.

I've been hating on WoW since 2005, and I do like Blizzard, I played Diablo 2, Starcraft, Warcraft 2, Warcraft 3 and I will be playing Diablo 3...I just depise WoW, and was dissapointed in Blizzard. Not only do I dislike WoW, but its been getting worse in quality since its release in 04.

The MAIN REASON for WoW's success is that the vast majority of WoW players have not played many, or any other MMO's, and probably couldnt even list 5 otheres off....WoW is under the name Blizzard, thats why it was so successful, I mean it even has TV commercials....NCsoft up until 8 years ago was a software company, they made Lineage, Lineage 2, then published CoX and GW....and all of those games make up for close to 40 million sales (L1/L2 have something like 30 million accounts there were active at some time, and GW has like 10 million box sales)....even though it was mostly in Asia, thats still impressive. Blizzard has been one of the most popular gaming companies for longer than most people have played PC games.

And if you must know, I'm playing WoW right now, averaging 6 hours a day for the past 5-6 weeks, I started from scratch with my clan who I've been with for 4 years now...this is the only reason I am playing, my clan is getting ready for Aion's release and since we've all played L2 so long we're exhausted from it, and most of us have WoW accounts, we decided to play just cause its an easy game we can take a lot more casual than L2 (or Aion), and we would actually be able to do something in the game by the time Aion is out...

I'm 80 now and have completed Sarth, Vault and Naxx 25 mans all in PUGs (we only have about 8 or 9 80's since we only started a month ago). They are moderatly fun, but after you do them the first time, its the exact same every time after that. It feels no different than when I was lvl 60 back in 2005/2006, they dont add any new content, they just make more of the existing content...from the mindnumblingly boring PvP farming of BG's to the endless repetition of the same heroic dungeons and raids, I can't fathom why people actually enjoy that endgame, unless they have not experienced end game in another game...I mean its not bad, I'm not saying WoW is the absolute worst game, its just a mediocre game.

Originally posted by xaldraxius

WoW, as I have always stated, is the most generic, watered down, Fisher Price, hand holding piece of crap MMO it has ever been my displeasure to beta test. I thought for sure that the game would have died long before now, but nobody seems to want a challange from games anymore.

Frustration used to be acceptable, but now when you mention corpse runs and death penalties people spout stuff about it being a game and if something is not fun it shouldn't be involved.

No challange = no fun. If it's all so damn easy why am I wasting my time doing it? I could just watch the videos on Youtube and save myself the subscription fee.

My point is that the whole WoW generation of MMOers are an aberration to the genre as a whole, and it won't be until they leave; or grow up, that MMOs can finally get back to where they should have been.

WoW hasn't 'Brought MMOs to the mainstream' or 'Revolutionized MMOs' it has betrayed the entire concept of what an MMORPG should be and planted the seeds of the genre's destruction in the minds of millions of kids, and the greedy hearts of game developers who should have stuck to console games.

((Edited to remove quote.))

Finally someone with enough sense to see the truth. How I wish you could meet some of my stubborn, real life friends. all 30 yr old gamers with not a clue. Guess it's my fault for introducing them to MMO's and choosing WoW to start them on just cause it was popular at the time.

I guess my response is this kind of thread to me is always an odd one.

If I play a game and in general enjoy it.. then I post about things I think can be better.  People talk about challenge or lack of.. what a real game is or isn't (real game ..seems to be some irony there or something).

People complain about other gamers being lazy etc

This bothers me for a reason.

When I played EQ1 back in the day and people complained about "uber leet raiding guilds" I would laugh.  Then my friends would ask me what was funny.  I would say I had no interest in raiding and enjoyed the game the way I played it.  Sure I see people with some cool looking stuff.. but they are off doing things in places I don't go.  So they don't bother me.

Well this is kind of the same thing.

If you don't like the kind of game WoW is.. don't go there.

Sure you can blame WoW for the fact other companies try to copy it.. to get a big piece of the pie they only dream of.

That started long before WoW.

You know what game I enjoyed?

Ultima Online

and to a lesser extent..

SWG Pre-CU.

UO didn't do as well as EQ.. so people started to clone EQ.  Thus I had no more "ultima onlines" to look forward to.

SWG failed in somebodies eyes so they clone WoW which imho was a clone of EQ (EQ got pretty easy even before WoW came out).

Corpse run?  You didn't have those in UO.. cuz if you died your stuff was most likely gone.  Saves you a run back tho.

Geez I miss those days.. can you imagine if they added full loot on death in WoW (cuz hey in UO even mobs would loot you it wasn't just a pvp thing).

Regardless.. yes I wish there was another game coming from a well funded company that was something I'd love.  This however, is not WoW's fault and if I don't like the game I just don't play or pay.

/shrug

Most people that are playing currently aren't the ones that were there 3 years ago. Some of em are, but most aren't. I quit right before BC and came back roughly 4-5 months later if not more. When i came back, many of the older players i used to play with got sick immediatly of the new raid frames, amongst other things, thus deciding to leave. I was also surprised at one point when i realised so many people hadn't played before TBC. So those that are still fresh will certainly still like the game and WOTLK. For an older player, not so much.

So Blizz in a sense did well of creating a renewable player base by "reseting" the game every xpac and by allowing players to blast through the lvl grind in less than a month, even for semi-casuals. Problem is everytime you'll have a new pool of elite players, they'll be disgusted in no time, looking at all these useless noobs catching up without even trying all that much or investing all that much (in time, efforts, etc.).

The ones that still like that game will have the exact same tone, eventually, as we "WoW-haters" have as we speak should Blizz keep things the way they are now (evolution-wise). Not all of course, but the majority. So don't get back at me saying "not me you idiot" or using some other useless strawman argument to prove me wrong.

I would guess that at least 90% of the WoW player base wouldn't survive in MMORPGs like FFXI where you need to group and not be an idiot in order to reach cap (that game is old as hell, don't know what it became, left it like 3 1/2 years ago or something) or for that matter any other "hard" MMOs that most of you know about.

Thing to remember is that the aggresive WoW-haters as well as the clueless Fanboys are indeed annoying and simply won't stop. They don't realise that most people aren't exactly at the same stage regarding WoW, and that also some are just different and like to simply chill. Not everyone has that eliteness need (which, come to think of it, is extremely immature and retarded if not even neanderthal), which i'm guilty of.

I'll set this straight though, for anyone who's been playing for a while and has had success in this game (randomly: clearing 90+% of the PVE and reaching high end pvp, say at least above 2k, even though that's not high end really, ) in the past... WoW is void of much interest. It's fun for new comers or "green" people, but certainly not for us.
 

Originally posted by Fatd

Most people that are playing currently aren't the ones that were there 3 years ago. Some of em are, but most aren't. I quit right before BC and came back roughly 4-5 months later if not more. When i came back, many of the older players i used to play with got sick immediatly of the new raid frames, amongst other things, thus deciding to leave. I was also surprised at one point when i realised so many people hadn't played before TBC. So those that are still fresh will certainly still like the game and WOTLK. For an older player, not so much.

So Blizz in a sense did well of creating a renewable player base by "reseting" the game every xpac and by allowing players to blast through the lvl grind in less than a month, even for semi-casuals. Problem is everytime you'll have a new pool of elite players, they'll be disgusted in no time, looking at all these useless noobs catching up without even trying all that much or investing all that much (in time, efforts, etc.).

The ones that still like that game will have the exact same tone, eventually, as we "WoW-haters" have as we speak should Blizz keep things the way they are now (evolution-wise). Not all of course, but the majority. So don't get back at me saying "not me you idiot" or using some other useless strawman argument to prove me wrong.

I would guess that at least 90% of the WoW player base wouldn't survive in MMORPGs like FFXI where you need to group and not be an idiot in order to reach cap (that game is old as hell, don't know what it became, left it like 3 1/2 years ago or something) or for that matter any other "hard" MMOs that most of you know about.

Thing to remember is that the aggresive WoW-haters as well as the clueless Fanboys are indeed annoying and simply won't stop. They don't realise that most people aren't exactly at the same stage regarding WoW, and that also some are just different and like to simply chill. Not everyone has that eliteness need (which, come to think of it, is extremely immature and retarded if not even neanderthal), which i'm guilty of.

I'll set this straight though, for anyone who's been playing for a while and has had success in this game (randomly: clearing 90+% of the PVE and reaching high end pvp, say at least above 2k, even though that's not high end really, ) in the past... WoW is void of much interest. It's fun for new comers or "green" people, but certainly not for us.
 

This must be the worst post I read in a long time here on mmorpg.com. Crap from beginning to end.

Let me highlight a few of the guy's statements. And the colors where it contradicts.

Oh BTW 2K+ PvP is reached by 5% of the PvP players or less. Simple stat calculations.

I'll tell you a secret: the expansions are not even the secret of Wow's ongoing success.

And survivability in ... a game? What a joke.

"It's fun for new comers or "green" people, but certainly not for us."

Are you speaking for me?

I played the "hard" MMO's that you say we all know about... I enjoy playing WoW as well.

In your lame-ass post, because I enjoy playing WoW I am somehow less of a gamer?

Please, elaborate...or jump off that @*#&%$...

Originally posted by Slampig

"It's fun for new comers or "green" people, but certainly not for us."

 

Are you speaking for me?

 

I played the "hard" MMO's that you say we all know about... I enjoy playing WoW as well.

In your lame-ass post, because I enjoy playing WoW I am somehow less of a gamer?

 

Please, elaborate...or jump off that @*#&%$...

 

I

I have also been playing MMO's for a long time, since Mud days actually and quite enjoy WoW. Blanket statements like the ones he made are never a good thing.

Originally posted by Zorndorf

Originally posted by Fatd

Most people that are playing currently aren't the ones that were there 3 years ago. Some of em are, but most aren't. I quit right before BC and came back roughly 4-5 months later if not more. When i came back, many of the older players i used to play with got sick immediatly of the new raid frames, amongst other things, thus deciding to leave. I was also surprised at one point when i realised so many people hadn't played before TBC. So those that are still fresh will certainly still like the game and WOTLK. For an older player, not so much.

So Blizz in a sense did well of creating a renewable player base by "reseting" the game every xpac and by allowing players to blast through the lvl grind in less than a month, even for semi-casuals. Problem is everytime you'll have a new pool of elite players, they'll be disgusted in no time, looking at all these useless noobs catching up without even trying all that much or investing all that much (in time, efforts, etc.).

The ones that still like that game will have the exact same tone, eventually, as we "WoW-haters" have as we speak should Blizz keep things the way they are now (evolution-wise). Not all of course, but the majority. So don't get back at me saying "not me you idiot" or using some other useless strawman argument to prove me wrong.

I would guess that at least 90% of the WoW player base wouldn't survive in MMORPGs like FFXI where you need to group and not be an idiot in order to reach cap (that game is old as hell, don't know what it became, left it like 3 1/2 years ago or something) or for that matter any other "hard" MMOs that most of you know about.

Thing to remember is that the aggresive WoW-haters as well as the clueless Fanboys are indeed annoying and simply won't stop. They don't realise that most people aren't exactly at the same stage regarding WoW, and that also some are just different and like to simply chill. Not everyone has that eliteness need (which, come to think of it, is extremely immature and retarded if not even neanderthal), which i'm guilty of.

I'll set this straight though, for anyone who's been playing for a while and has had success in this game (randomly: clearing 90+% of the PVE and reaching high end pvp, say at least above 2k, even though that's not high end really, ) in the past... WoW is void of much interest. It's fun for new comers or "green" people, but certainly not for us.
 

 

This must be the worst post I read in a long time here on mmorpg.com. Crap from beginning to end.

Let me highlight a few of the guy's statements. And the colors where it contradicts.

Oh BTW 2K+ PvP is reached by 5% of the PvP players or less. Simple stat calculations.

I'll tell you a secret: the expansions are not even the secret of Wow's ongoing success.

And survivability in ... a game? What a joke.

 

Doesn't really contradict, simply stating that indeed that elitist attitude might not be a good justification and that i tend to be that way. I'm simply exposing what a lot of said haters don't like about what wow has become.

The survivability part, it's in term of getting somewhere in the game, not playing for years without achieving anything substantial, in terms of PVE/PVP or simply establishing yourself as a top end game player in the community (by being a good reference or simply a nice person i guess) for example.

Re-reading now, i meant to expose both the haters and fanboys as equal opposite of the spectrum, not diminish one more than another.

 I did also mention Blizz was doing well at renewing their player base, it's in good part what allows them to maintain high numbers and even growth here and there. If that wasn't the case, they wouldn't be anything but a small sample of the early years. Many people left this game after TBC came out and during its life, then of course got replaced by new ones.

I pretty much explained in my original post why a lot of players are tired and somewhat angry at WoW. This is no "lame" post or anything, it's what made a lot of players (some parts as well as other reasons, of course) quit the game in the past and what will make some players quit in the future. I did also mention that the whole "eliteness'" thing is pretty stupid, but a lot of players do tend to go by that factor, including myself sometimes (like i did admit). So that contradicting part might apply to the haters-fanboy part, but to me a fanboy isn't a regular WoW enthousiast that likes the game and plays it like most people here. I'm refering to those who do without even thinking about the whole thing and refuse to recognize anything that could potentially be wrong. Adding clueless was simply putting emphasis, not tainting from scratch and not "aggressive". I see that category of haters as people denying they ever had fun with the game and that it sucks totally even though they played for 1 1/2 or even more.

About that 5% over 2K (i would assume averaged over 2s, 3s and 5s)... you sure that's correct? seems awfully low to me. Not that i don't believe you, thought it would be at least twice that pool.

 

Lets cry some more. "I hate WoW because other people enjoy and like it and I have nothing better to do then whine on a forum to get attention rather than going to play something else".

I left Wow becasue I got tired of the grind. Not that its not in other things, just needed a change.

This must be a popular troll and flammer thread, I mean it had some things wrong with it, like i hated the grind but it has done some great things for the MMO industry. Sure im over it, I mean the grind got to me, and  I realy didnt like how they didnt use that great storyline they had, they should have made it more story orientated rather then grind orientated.

Originally posted by Slampig

"It's fun for new comers or "green" people, but certainly not for us."

 

Are you speaking for me?

 

I played the "hard" MMO's that you say we all know about... I enjoy playing WoW as well.

In your lame-ass post, because I enjoy playing WoW I am somehow less of a gamer?

 

Please, elaborate...or jump off that @*#&%$...

 

Not speaking for you.
 

It's a feeling shared by many "haters" that WoW gives too much without asking enough. Allowing pretty much anyone to reach cap relatively quickly and acquire gear with not much effort. That is in part what will annoy a lot of people out of this game. You can have experience with older "harder" games and still like WoW, but you might also get tired of it faster because of the challenge factor (you might, no certainty of course).

WoW is a grind? Compared to what....Tetris?

honestly there is only a few things that bother me about wow. the two smaller issues are the art work and sound. i hate the sound so much i dont know why but it just bothers me so much. i also dont like the art work. i know these things are small but when i try to get back into the game i just cant stay in it for that long. also they took out the 40 dungeons. so thats a little more of a serious problem. and they keep adding levels with each expansion. they need to do something a little more creative than just add 10 levels and some new areas each expansion, but hey its just my opinion

You wanna know something more ironic?

The fact that those who hates WoW think they are the core MMO gamers and has all the rights to think WoW is all babies that never touched MMO before running around, or conclude by themselves that most WoW players are new to MMO in the first place.

Seriously, where the hell did you get those information? Please show it to me I would like to know.

Simple statistics, how many people played MMO's before WoW was released? Although I guess the boom really started with Lineage > Lineage 2 > WoW, those were the first games to hit such a large amount of people (millions) in a short amount of time, before that MMO's were not common, and the Lineage series was mostly Asian, it only peaked at like 400k US subscribers.

What strikes me after reading all the posts here is that "Wow haters" aren't really hating Wow.

Most are even complaining about little stuff like lack of the old feeling (40 men raids etc) or even trivial things (I don't like the art, sound, lore, whatever).

Most of the haters aren't using the same arguments either. Some guys say it's "too easy", other say "it's too time consuming" and " raiding eats up too much of your time".

Like the guy that didn't believe only 5% will ever get to highest PvP gear (I'd say it's even 0.5 % - just look at the Blizzard award system for the PvP titles).

I mean if another MMORPG came along in which LESS than 0.1% to 0.5% of the players could own some PvP gear, it would be considered as very hardcore.

The bottom line stays the same: it's perception. And so each perception is different. I am glad most of you here didn't come with the words "sucks", "boring" things, because - deep within - you all know Blizzard made a hell of a PC game that's getting played - a lot - even after 4 years and "only" 2 expansions.

So the Wow hate is a bunch of individual valid (no doubt) opinions that contradict often with each other. The arguments that the game really is a dud is of course not valid in view of the awards and playings it gets.

So "Wow hate" is a personal thing that looks cool on mmorp.com, but hardly anyone can pinpoint a common denominator, except for the fact that Wow commercially dominates the sector too much.

But that's hardly Blizzards fault. That's the fault of other MMORPG makers. You should hate those for not bringing enough alternatives.

Hmmm yes that does make sense.

However, while many who play WoW may be new to MMO, most of them aren't a first time gamer.

I know many, including my friends, that never touched MMO and by my request touched Lineage 2 for the first time, hated it, then tried WoW and loved it.

MMO is just an online world. There are tons of people who have never touched MMO simply because they weren't interested and preferred other games, or even single player RPG.

Bringing them and making them like MMO such as WoW is a huge accomplishment, and can't be distinguished as new comers when the only thing they are new at is playing MMO for the first time or weren't interested until WoW came along.

I myself is a old time MMO lover, but that doesn't make my words justify what must be a MMO and how new MMOs are ruining it, because perhaps it's not the gaming industry but it's you who can't keep up with the trend.

Of course, I'm not saying you should change your taste to keep up with the trend. It's just annoying when old time MMO lovers comes up saying MMOs should rewind itself back to the 90s.

Not copying WoW doesnt mean go back to the 90's.

I think people just need to shut the fuck up and realize, its just a game.

Sure, I dislike a few MMO's out there but I'm not gonna baww about how much that game sucked to the people who actually liked it and create some huge argument about it.

Wow is a simple MMO, yeah.

But that does not mean it's some stain on the MMO genre. Blizzard decided to try something different with their MMO, and as it turns out, it was successful.

My only problem with wow is not with WoW itsself, it's with the developers who have been pumping out half assed MMO's since Wow's creation who think their game will be just as successful if they make a game similar to wow.

But really, that's going to happen when anything is successful. Something hits big, and then other people try to copy that. It's not really blizzard's fault, that's just the way things work.

Community.

With a decent community WoW could be 10 times better.

Originally posted by theratmonkey

I think people just need to shut the fuck up and realize, its just a game.

QFT ...