| 14 posts found | |
|---|---|
|
Lets be honest normal permadeath does not make very much sense much less having it being a focus. By having permadeath you're going to end up excluding a lot of people, and the people who do like the mechanic will find some other reason to hate your game(sux graphics, sux PvP, sux whatever). Another goal of the system I'm going to outlie is a way to make the death mechanic something that is interesting in some form or another. _____________________ To start with we need to lay out some basic mechanics so everything makes sense. SKILL SYSTEM (summary. Two layers to the skill. 1 layer that you lose when you die but is what you use for skill rolls/unlocks. a second layer you gain on death based on the experiance in the first skill, that you don't ever lose.) We're going to have a very basic skill system. Each skill has 10 levels that actually affect the skill itself and a second layer that has 10 levels which affects how quickly you learn the skill, how efficently you can teach people it, and will unlock special trainers(skilled pupil, I'll let you in on a secret of the trade) or at least responses("wow you're learning this fast", and some minor quests due to that). Instead of going with you use it you learn it I'm going to use a lesson based system. Do whatever you want and unlock lessons, use these lessons for formal training from players or NPCs to actually learn what you want. Since people can lose some skills with death I see no reason to make them do something they don't want to again and again. You gain the first level by spending lessons to learn the first level of a skill it costs 100 lessons to learn the next 200, 300, 400 ,500 after level 5 all other levels cost 500 lessons. when you truely die all the lessons you've trained in the first layer are applied to the second layer, However it takes twice as many lessons to advance(200, 400, 600, 800, ..., 1,000). As mentioned earlier you increase the speed of leveling your first layer by being invested in the second layer, what is unlocks is that every level up to the level you're invested in only costs 100 lessons after it's what the normal cost is. By being invested in the second skill you can also train others being level 10 would essentially half the cost (lessons_required / 2) while being level 1 in the skill would be quite a bit less (lessons_required/1.1). This means that the game will have to keep track of the lessons you've truely used instead of guessing it on death. First life mastered a skill. This means you've gained 4,000 lessons in the first layer. When you die you'll put 4,000 lessons to your second layer. Your second layer is now level 5 Second life you train that skill again. The first 5 layers only costed 100 lessons each. The next layers cost the same they normally would have so 500 lessons each. In the end you master it again so 3,000 lessons are put to your second layer when you die (along with the 600 from last time 3,600 lessons are put into the second layer) So you end up at level 8 in the second layer This means that someone who has mastered the second layer by training the first layer over a few lifes can get to level 10 in the first layer with just 500 lessons with a human trainer. By truely dieing you never ever lose the second level but do lose the first. Crafting system all items can be broken down to componets and crafted items is pretty much the best way to get anything worth using. Componets can be from just about anything animals to traditional gathering(wildlife on the planet has a tendancy to absorb+process metal in their bones). Gains lessons as well as finished items Hunting + gathering Unprocessed items, so-so finished items, lessons, may trigger some quests Questing The quest log is whipped with each death(erased) with the exception of storyline quests(however you may need to do a quest to gain trust even if you are the first born son/daughter, and you'll be treated as that: finish forefathers/forerace work, chance to redeem family line/race, ect.). Access to areas(for crafting/hunting/gathering), item designs(just looks), rare effects, and lessons.
DEATH ITSELF When you die you can choose to spend lessons instead of truely dieing. each time you die the costs increases eventually to the point where you're better off dieing. Some rare effects will grant you a boon of life though can only be used once. You can choose to effectly kill your character by going through a quest line to marry an NPC and have a child. This would be the only way to get a halfbreed race as well, which is quite a treat as normal death will only let you be human. When all said is done you will eventually die. When this happens you're brought to the scales of judgement. You'll be told by the servitor/god/whatever at the scale that they have have never seen someone pass the test that that those who would have have choosen to be reborn before they took it. You can choose to take the test and be introduced to some nice bits of lore here and there or be reborn right away. When reborn you can choose your starting point, stats, items, and quirks again or keep your old ones. There will also be various quests(most short ranging from a simple forgery to claiming family name) to do that will let you claim most your old holdings(banks, houses, ect). _________________________ This system lets you keep your character name, friends lists, guild(s), and lets you keep quite a bit of advancement. It also grants you various shortcuts to training skills so you don't do it over and over. It also opens up logical and entertaining things for stories (revolving stories where one generations sets up a story, the next undoes it. The effects of death in secret/underground societies. and other stuff people more creative could think of) _________________________
So views, supports bashes, anyone? I miss how my old computer kept the house warmer in winter :( |
|
|
Hi paulscott. I've tried too be open minded to the concept of PermaDeath, but find it to be a difficult fit in a computer game which features mostly RPG game mechanics that are geared towards `Character Building` in getting more stuff and to keep players playing as long as possible. IMO, the proposed system is overly complex `Stiff Death Penalty`. Why not simply offer straight up Permadeath as a option that comes with accelerated Character Building via greater rewards, drops, XP, etc. After all getting more stuff is fun, avoiding death is fun, but, dying is not so fun, even if you can respawn and continue.
|
|
|
I'm not even sure if I quite got it, to be honest.
I think the best - and simplest - way of implementing permadeath, is by using kinship, where your kin inherits a xx% amount of his parents skills. Nice and simple. And also, leveling up your character again is really easy. Just a matter of days. The hard part doesn't lie in the skillgains, but advancement through PvP and PvE content. That has always been my take on permadeath though. Hello there, adventurer! |
|
|
I think my main problem with perma-death is that people get emotionally attached to their characters. If you look at it just as a game with mechanics and such there may be some reasonable set of rules that would work. However the intangible aspects of perma-death may be unacceptable to many. It’s true that pencil and paper games all have perma-death (or at least the ones I’ve played) . However in those games most GMs are not really inclined to kill off characters permanently unless they do something really stupid. Even when they do die there is often some sort of resurrection available especially in fantasy games. If GMs were to kill off characters on a whim players would just quit and that would be the end of the game. |
|
|
I dont quite know about that. Just design the game around the permadeath. If leveling up is easy enough, people wont mind it. And since everyone have to be reduced to "noobs" all the time, there will always be an even amount of activity throughout the zones for different levels. That's a good thing in my book. At the same time, with something as harsh as permdeath, you can actually have a limitless cap on levels, which in my opinion is one of the cooler aspects of PD. If a guy gets overpowered, people will gang up on him. Anyways, what the designers have to do, is to take away the players from the current RPG mindset. They should get attached to their kinship instead. Everytime you level up again is a new and constant challenge, since there will be people after you (griefers and nemesises etc etc). Make the thrill of the game to reach new records, staying alive the most, trying to do the most amount of content before dying. So by applying the right sort of mindset, a fast enough leveling system, having the kinship share a "bankaccount" I think it would work. And because of the risk, everything will feel 100% more exhilirating, and since leveling up again is a breeze, it wont feel that frustrating. Or hell, what about just taking AWAY levels/skill levels? The permadeath factor should give an ample amount of fun by itself, AND take away all the frustration of dying. Progress will be more about the amount of achievements before suffering death. (achievements are: dungeon running, amount of PvP kills, fortress captures, amount of stuff made with professions and gear (that dont make you TOO OP'd, since then it would just be an indirect way of leveling).
Though I prefer character advancement over the long run, I am still pro PD if it is applied in the right way. Frustration and mindset of achievement and progress is key I believe. Hello there, adventurer! |
|
|
Well of course anyone is free to design a perma-death game but as someone spending time and money building a game it’s not something I would be willing to invest in. My overall feeling is that there may be some niche market for it but it will otherwise massively limit player base. |
|
|
I'm really just trying to find a way as to how it could logically work. This idea is pretty much summed up as each skill having two attached to it 1 for actually use that you lose and another that's use for training it so that the more often you use the skill the faster it would level.
The core features of perma death aren't really permadeath itself but the other elements you can tie to it. If a govemment puts a death warrent on your head it's a tiny bit more real instead of just an area you can't go to. If you get life in prison there'd be a story line quest to get out but, but after that quest you really do have life in prison the next time. If you're(developer) are willing to invest in the story line mechanics you can do some really cool and immersive stuff, you can make it so that people who do do the same story line quests don't do the same ones for reasons from lineage(My family has been attached to the school for generations in some form or another), finishing a pastselfs work(finding your old geezers buddies who were working on the werewolf project), all the way to stories that wax and wane with your families generations(deep down in your bloodlines you have selkie blood after all, associations with a few undesirable pasts that pop up seemingly at random, and a logical way for NPCs to write you in/out of their stories).
Sure under most conditions permadeath makes no sense at all but you can make it make sense and be a viable concept with very little thinking to get the very very very core concepts on paper. And it'd probably be a lot easier to do in a single player game but I can see it pulled off in a multiplayer world someway or another.
I miss how my old computer kept the house warmer in winter :( |
|
|
Cryomatrix
Novice Member
Joined: 8/19/05
Currently Playing: SWG trial on starstrider Played: WoW, L2, EVE (.25, .5, 2 years) |
I've thought about permadeath. I absolutely loved diablo 2 on hardcore server, i dueled/pked on it no hacks and all, it was great. BUt it is unrealistic. Here is my idea for permadeath. A players starts with 100 lives. If they still have a life left their character is displayed with a certain halo or glowing feature. It does nothing or something very small but it is still there. If you have lost 100 lives then you get nothing and everyone knows it. If you haven't died at all, you get the ability to wear certain armor at higher levels. That's all. PvP deaths do not count on this tab. 100 deaths is a lot, i am not so sure people should complain about it. Cryomatrix |
Originally posted by Cryomatrix
If the game is combat centric and the character dies 100 times then maybe the player should build a new one. |
|
Originally posted by techlord
If the game is combat centric and the character dies 100 times then maybe the player should build a new one.
If you plan to expand the game and keep it running continually for years to come, 100 deaths will run out eventually. Even the most experienced players will fail / die when tackling new content. |
|
|
Permadeath is a tough one to nail down. The game would have to be highly repeatable. For instance, Diablo was highly repeatable. You just ran around and slew mobs I'd personally go with limited lives. Still, clients will gripe if a lag spike causes them to lose their avatar. PD is interesting because it totally changes everything. Even though your MMO might have a standard ruleset. If PD is in play, now even the mundane may have some meaning Let's say you see a noob is about to get killed by a mob. If you save this guy, he may thank you forever+++. People will no doubt group more to reduce risks You get lots of reuse of content.
Really Permadeath is a brilliant idea. But its also a highly risky idea. I've heard Sony-EQ1 had a PD server and it was highly popular. But Sony took it down because they were just running it for a competition. A PD game would need to be pure fun to keep people playing. And that's the risk. Most MMOs arent pure fun. They rely on progression and such as the hook
I'd either pursue straight up global permadeath ruleset or Optional Permadeath of a sort |
|
|
There is one type of game where permadeath works very nicely with the right mechanics. Web based empire building, there are a few games like neveron where you can play the same empire for 5 years and in insanely rare cases get it completely removed from the game.
However the thing with empire building games is that the larger you the harder you it is to truely hurt you. If someone randomly grabs a city off you you've had less than 1% of yourself hurt even if it is permemtly so. If someone wants to remove you off the face of the map they're going to have A LOT of territory to cover, logisticize over, and attack. That means that you could have a week or two of real time to respond to the attacks before you're really really dead. You're going to have lots of time to plan to get your couter attack ready and play the political game, hell you could even get a hold of 5 small cities from faction mates in the middle of a few nowheres. _____________
I guess I'm just trying to think of ways to apply playable mechanics that I've lived perfectly fine with in different types of MMOs. People should also note that they're starting to remove painful PvP even in web empire building MMOs. The prime example that I've come accross is astroempires, You never take territory from someone you just occupy it (even indeffiantly). meaning that production(s) are reduce by half and that you're going to have to abandon the planet, take care of occupieing forces, or play the politcal game. All in all I wouldn't say that this is a bad thing when compared to others. the game is very solid and works out quite nicely in the games context. _____________ I'm not the person that plays hardcore diablo I play the games how they're supposed to be. If permadeath is designed for the game I don't feel that it will hurt or help it in many ways. All in all I think it's safe to say that permadeath works in empire building games because death isn't a common aspect of the game, just losses. I miss how my old computer kept the house warmer in winter :( |
|
|
I think permadeath would be great if it wasn't for lag and disconnections. If there was a way to guarantee no lag deaths then I'd definitely want PD. Despite that I'd still like to squeeze it in somehow like maybe the last stage of epic quests -- so if you want that sword of uberness you have to risk perma death to get it. |
|
|
I frequently used to play a RPG game called Call of Cthulhu. The nature of the game meant that characters had a tendency to die rather frequently, often whilst roleplaying the various effects of the ever increasing insanity. (Insanity increased throughout the game as players learnt more about the world around them). We adopted a method where players could keep a library of information that could be passed to other members of the family. On death, you could start a new character retracing the quest of the dead relative and the notes taken (or library) allowed much of the knowledge to be gained quickly. Characters in the game a really long time often became something of a liability so could also be retired if they became really unstable. New characters had lower skill, but at least they wouldn't turn a gun on you. ---- Think of a MMO with a mage. The mage could keep a spellbook which is passed on to a known apprentice. Upon death you become the apprentice, and can use the spells in the book. As a less experienced mage the more demanding spells may carry more risk, or may need more spell points than you have but can still be regained quickly, or cast if you're buffed by another player. There can also be some benefit from being the new apprentice as perhaps younger mages have advantages, like better mobility, running speed etc. All this means that the new apprentice is different from the older mage but not entirely inept. It would not be like restarting and there could actually be some advantages of a new character. --- Similarly. Warriors, thieves etc could also have apprentices that learn key moves or skills. An older warrior may have the experience and variety of moves, but a younger character has advantages that could still result in a similar power level if some of the fighting moves are passed down directly.
|
|
