Originally posted by Carthage 

  Why would we be afraid of a PvE server? Who's lashing out at what?

Why would you be afraid of a pve server?  Look at what happened to UO.  I'm sorry I didn't realize retarded has become a term of endearment.

As I have already stated I don't care if DF ever releases a pve server.  I personally don't think it will ever happen.  But this it can't happen because of mechanics is smoke and mirrors.  There will be no pve server for DF because the hardcore pvpers fear what happened to UO will happen to DF or maybe their hatred for anything and everything carebears (Hell look at all the anger in this thread.  Maybe I'm wrong it's probably is more hatred then fear) and the developers sensable judgement is clouded by their egos.

Originally posted by Venger

Originally posted by busdriver 

 

Not getting worked up because of a different opinion, but because I'm trying to explain something to a half-wit and it's frustrating.

Pre-Trammel was about PvP, not as elaborate as Darkfall promises, but it was there. So did you have a point here, or are you just foaming what ever comes to mind?

Through consentual PvP, I see. So if guild A wants to attack guild B city, but guild B is all like 'nah, we don wana', then what happens? Or if pirates feel like doing some pirating, but the merchants don't feel sporty, then what happens? Or if... do I really need to go on with this, or are you actually getting this by now?

 

Don't like the message so you attack the messenger. 

UO was never all about pvp.  FFA pvp was simply a feature within the world, which revolved around character development.

Excuse me? Who the fuck was it that first called me 'a simple minded pvper?

UO was never all about PvP, but it was a center piece of it all. Once they took that away, they had to add all sorts of epics in the game to give something to do for the PvE crowd. And look at it now, a goddamn isometric WoW. I'm not going to ask your point with all this UO talk, I'm beginning to understand that you're used to not to have any.

Originally posted by JK-Kanosi

A friend suggested DF have PvE servers to pull in more people. What do you think would happen to DF if they offered PvE servers along side normal servers? I argued against PvE servers pointing to Trammel, but really, isn't it like saying there aren't enough PvPers to sustain a PvP server if a PvE server existed? If it is like saying that, then what sort of population do we expect to have in DF?

I wouldn't mind a non-full loot server personally, but I'd be opposed to a PvE server.

Not gonne happen ever

This is becoming to be a lengthy topic over nothing. There is no way that Darkfall will have a seperate server for PvE players, that's been stated by the developers many times.

Darkfall is designed around PvP. E.g, there are player cities that have the pure role of improving the PvP aspect of the game. As many already pointed out, without PvP, these cities would just be eye-candies, and they would not change hands - which is against the whole idea. PvE will still be in the game, but it will have several challenges that will require PvP interactions.

Originally posted by busdriver 

 

Excuse me? Who the fuck was it that first called me 'a simple minded pvper?

UO was never all about PvP, but it was a center piece of it all. Once they took that away, they had to add all sorts of epics in the game to give something to do for the PvE crowd. And look at it now, a goddamn isometric WoW. I'm not going to ask your point with all this UO talk, I'm beginning to understand that you're used to not to have any.

 

"Now, and pay attention, what the fuck would be the driving force in a PvE server?"

Quote is from your first post.  Who started having a tantrum at the beginning of this discussion?

No character development was always the center of UO.  Epic were added because of powerhour and quick skill gains.

And again you end with a temper tantrum?  Can you have a adult conversation?

Originally posted by GrayGhost79

Originally posted by Focker

Originally posted by GrayGhost79

Wanted to add something else you may not be considering lol. Another huge problem with a PvE only server with DarkFall is going to be the fact there is collision detection. With FFA PvP, you can potentialy deal with those atempting to hender your progress or atleast get others to deal with them. On  a PvE server..... how exactly are you going to deal with people blocking an entrance to a dungeon or shop? You going to call a GM? Are they going to help by removing said players out of your way when you could have done so yourself on a PvP server or atleast had others do it for you?

 

You have to remember this is a FFA PvP game, the majority of problems will be left for the community to deal with when the problem is between players.

 

eh, they would just do what UO did.  Allow players to walk through each other.

 

Collision detection is in lol, you can not simply walk through other players lol. That would be bypassing a game mechanic. As I stated the game was designed with FFA PvP in mind , there are numerous problems you would run into on a PvE only server due to this fact that will not be on PvP servers.

 

Collision detection was also in on UO but changed when you went to tram.  Just saying

Originally posted by Venger

Originally posted by busdriver 

 

Excuse me? Who the fuck was it that first called me 'a simple minded pvper?

UO was never all about PvP, but it was a center piece of it all. Once they took that away, they had to add all sorts of epics in the game to give something to do for the PvE crowd. And look at it now, a goddamn isometric WoW. I'm not going to ask your point with all this UO talk, I'm beginning to understand that you're used to not to have any.

 

"Now, and pay attention, what the fuck would be the driving force in a PvE server?"

 

Quote is from your first post.  Who started having a tantrum at the beginning of this discussion?

No character development was always the center of UO.  Epic were added because of powerhour and quick skill gains.

And again you end with a temper tantrum?  Can you have a adult conversation?

Nowhere in that quote did I attack your character. I told you to pay attention, since you managed to not answer my question in previous post. If that made you feel all hurt inside... well, go find someone who cares.
 

Epics were added alongside with quests, to give people something to do. Character development is fun and all, but it wont keep the masses playing for month after month, year after year.

I'll have an adult conversation as soon as the opponent addresses the questions, at least tries to come up with good arguments and doesn't start yapping about things that have very little, if anything, to do with the topic in question.

Edit: I'm done talking with you. I actually feel my IQ getting lower every time I read your posts.

Originally posted by Carthage

We don't fear the choice, the devs have said no to PvE and the majority of the player base agree...it's a retarded idea.

If someone enjoys PvE there is no reason why they can't do that on a normal server. The world is supposedly big enough that they can go off to some corner of the world and run around and kill all the Goblins they want....but BEWARE! The Goblins are reported to have good AI so it may not be much different then facing off with another player.

Lol so did FLS... look where that got them.

If so many are mad that they dont want to put in PvE. I have the answer, make your own game and do what you want with it... So the devs of DF want  PvP only. Well good  i repect that they took the time to make the game they have the right to make it anyway they want. Then PvP say its PvE that cry and PvE are saying PvP will cry my god people. Its just a game something made to have fun. Some people like football some people like baseball that like saying let make baseball a contact sport and football a non. I cant wait till Darkfall come out it sound great but i trust the people who are making it not casue they are faithful but becasue it there idea and i like there idea so what ever they decide works for me.

one thing this thread shows is how terrible this community is going to be. Be prepared to put just about everyone on ignore

Darkfall is pvp pve crafting exploring citybuilding naval combat and much more:)

Originally posted by Xgeneration

 if your friend likes PvE better than PvP than he must be in MMO heaven right now, hes got a ton of games to choose from. Those who like PvP have very few good games to choose from.

There is a good PVE MMO that has come out this decade? 

All I see are:

* sad PVP (WoW, AoC, WAR)

* good PVP (Eve, GW, TR)

* and railroad, far2easy PVE (all of the above, EQ2, Vanguard, Free2Play junk, City of H/Vs)

The last good PVE game I played was EQ1.  Where are the rich storylines?  Where are the NPCs not the same every time you encounter them?  Where do you have to take risks in order to succeed?

Originally posted by JK-Kanosi

A friend suggested DF have PvE servers to pull in more people. What do you think would happen to DF if they offered PvE servers along side normal servers? I argued against PvE servers pointing to Trammel, but really, isn't it like saying there aren't enough PvPers to sustain a PvP server if a PvE server existed? If it is like saying that, then what sort of population do we expect to have in DF?

I wouldn't mind a non-full loot server personally, but I'd be opposed to a PvE server.

LMAO!!! What an incredibly ridiculous suggestion. Thats like saying Batllefield should have PvE servers. How would players take over each others cities if they couldnt fight each other? Basicly the first people to build their city would own it FOREVER.

Obviously Darkfall is never going to have a PvE server because its not a dumbass themepark game like all the others. As others have said in this thread people who want pure PvE can fuck off and play every other mmo on the market which caters to them.

I think the population for Darkfall will be fine. In fact I think it will be more than fine because it offers a gaming experience that no other mmo can provide.

This thread shouldn't exist. The idea is idiotic beyond reproach.

I have made a few arguements for a PVE server in Darkfall but i really dont want one. So i will respond to the second option the OP stated, Different PVP rules.

I think having a lessend loot policy on a server or two would be a big benefit to Darkfall. I still think you should be able to loot your kill but perhaps only a couple items, or a player can tag a couple items on their body as unlootable. All bags and coin would still be fair game. This way there is still reward for killing someone but it isnt quite as fearful for those who are really turned off by the full loot. And yes i know, loot is not that important but loot will always be important. Perhaps not WoW important but it will be important.

It is all about player base. Opening the game up a little to draw in more players would be a good thing for everyone, expecially the Developer.

Most of the strong arguements against a different server type boil down to the "Because" theory. Darkfall cant work for PVE because, you have to have FFA PVP because. You all might as well just say "Because i dont want it to" because that is all you are saying anyway.
Darkfall could have a PVE server and it would work. Not all PVE is WoW style. EQ was PVE and was not nearly as glamor PVE as WoW. Is it the perfect game for PVE, no it isnt, but it would work as a PVE game. Hell, any game will work as a PVE game as long as there is stuff to kill. There will be NPC mobs, there will be dungeons, there will be bosses in dungeons, there will be areas where you need a big group of people to safely fight, that pretty much sounds like all the elements of PVE right there.

But yes, i too dont think there will be a PVE server for Darkfall nor should there be. PVPers have been waiting long enough for a game that they can call their own. Different PVP rulesets would be nice but either way i will be giving Darkfall a shot, and my interest has nothing to do with PVP what so ever. Darkfall, if it is near what is advertised, will offer far more then PVP.

The biggest reason that DF won't ever have a PvE server is a technical one, not that the devs wouldn't mind one. And the reason is...

DF doesn't have instances.  I'm not going to elaborate on this, as I'm sure it's pretty obvious what I mean.

Originally posted by safwd

I have made a few arguements for a PVE server in Darkfall but i really dont want one. So i will respond to the second option the OP stated, Different PVP rules.

I think having a lessend loot policy on a server or two would be a big benefit to Darkfall. I still think you should be able to loot your kill but perhaps only a couple items, or a player can tag a couple items on their body as unlootable. All bags and coin would still be fair game. This way there is still reward for killing someone but it isnt quite as fearful for those who are really turned off by the full loot. And yes i know, loot is not that important but loot will always be important. Perhaps not WoW important but it will be important.

It is all about player base. Opening the game up a little to draw in more players would be a good thing for everyone, expecially the Developer.

Most of the strong arguements against a different server type boil down to the "Because" theory. Darkfall cant work for PVE because, you have to have FFA PVP because. You all might as well just say "Because i dont want it to" because that is all you are saying anyway.
Darkfall could have a PVE server and it would work. Not all PVE is WoW style. EQ was PVE and was not nearly as glamor PVE as WoW. Is it the perfect game for PVE, no it isnt, but it would work as a PVE game. Hell, any game will work as a PVE game as long as there is stuff to kill. There will be NPC mobs, there will be dungeons, there will be bosses in dungeons, there will be areas where you need a big group of people to safely fight, that pretty much sounds like all the elements of PVE right there.

But yes, i too dont think there will be a PVE server for Darkfall nor should there be. PVPers have been waiting long enough for a game that they can call their own. Different PVP rulesets would be nice but either way i will be giving Darkfall a shot, and my interest has nothing to do with PVP what so ever. Darkfall, if it is near what is advertised, will offer far more then PVP.

I am pretty sure I gave more than some because I don't want it to reason lol.

Do people think that just because it is a PvP free server everyone will be caring and sharring? That griefers will suddenly change there ways?

I mean do you really and truely think that since your on a PvE server with collision detection that asking someone to move so you may get into a dungeon will be enough?

Is it believed that if there was a PvE serverm people wouldn't be intentionaly blocking your attacks on a mob for the simple reason they were there first or they want your camp so they will herass you till you leave?

What happens to the economy when half the items suddenly have no value because no one needs them?

What happens when you run out of clan city locations?

Considering a lot of the quests will be rewarding in Faction and such.... what would be the point in doing them on a PvE server?

I am sorry, the reasoning behind it not being feasable isn't simply because we don't want it. It's because it truely isn't feasible. I mean the Devs would have to go back and change atleast 50% of the game simply for a PvE server.

If you can't see that, then you simply haven't thought the idea behind the PvE server through.

Originally posted by safwd

I have made a few arguements for a PVE server in Darkfall but i really dont want one. So i will respond to the second option the OP stated, Different PVP rules.

I think having a lessend loot policy on a server or two would be a big benefit to Darkfall. I still think you should be able to loot your kill but perhaps only a couple items, or a player can tag a couple items on their body as unlootable. All bags and coin would still be fair game. This way there is still reward for killing someone but it isnt quite as fearful for those who are really turned off by the full loot. And yes i know, loot is not that important but loot will always be important. Perhaps not WoW important but it will be important.

It is all about player base. Opening the game up a little to draw in more players would be a good thing for everyone, expecially the Developer.

Most of the strong arguements against a different server type boil down to the "Because" theory. Darkfall cant work for PVE because, you have to have FFA PVP because. You all might as well just say "Because i dont want it to" because that is all you are saying anyway.
Darkfall could have a PVE server and it would work. Not all PVE is WoW style. EQ was PVE and was not nearly as glamor PVE as WoW. Is it the perfect game for PVE, no it isnt, but it would work as a PVE game. Hell, any game will work as a PVE game as long as there is stuff to kill. There will be NPC mobs, there will be dungeons, there will be bosses in dungeons, there will be areas where you need a big group of people to safely fight, that pretty much sounds like all the elements of PVE right there.

But yes, i too dont think there will be a PVE server for Darkfall nor should there be. PVPers have been waiting long enough for a game that they can call their own. Different PVP rulesets would be nice but either way i will be giving Darkfall a shot, and my interest has nothing to do with PVP what so ever. Darkfall, if it is near what is advertised, will offer far more then PVP.

GreyGhost is correct. Darkfall cant have a PvE server simply because it doesnt work. Yes it does have PvE elements included in it but its not a PvE game. In Darkfall players can build cities. Once they are built how is anyone going to destroy them or take them other if they are not allowed to attack each other? It would mean that the first players to get their city built would own it forever like I already said in my post above. Do you see? It doesnt work does it.

Also NO people should not be able to label certain items as non-lootable. Its simply not realistic and completely goes against what Darkfall is all about. The game is a FFA PvP FULL LOOT game and thats the way it should stay. If you remove or reduce the full loot aspect then it reduces the risk and the pain of being killed.......and I'm fed up of death having no penalty in mmos. Dieing in these games has been becoming more and more meaningless to the point where there is hardly any point in playing them. Take WAR for example. All the battles in that game are completely pointless. No-one cares about losing in that game because nothing bad happens when you die and you can be back in the fray in a minute. In Darkfall death is going to hurt as well it should because.....well.....its DEATH!! Its not meant to be pleasant. I hope the death penalty in Darkfall is so severe that it makes people cry! In fact I think the game should electrocute you in your seat for good measure.

Of course plenty of people whine and moan that players will use the fear of death (hilarious!) to "ruin peoples fun" even though death can happen to everyone. Well I personally dont find it fun at all that there is no challenge in any of the current mmos so I welcome the full loot feature in Darkfall with open arms and I know lots of other people do as well. Its about bloody time that we get a real mmo. We certainly dont need Aventurine to start catering to the carebears and pussies.

Im not even sure why i am arguing this because i dont care about a PVE server, but im bored so why not.

Lets all try not to forget that there was PVE prior to the craptastic PVE of WoW and beyond.

Originally posted by GrayGhost79

 

 I am pretty sure I gave more than some because I don't want it to reason lol.

Do people think that just because it is a PvP free server everyone will be caring and sharring? That griefers will suddenly change there ways?
Griefers are in PVE and PVP games, it doesnt matter. There have been people trying to figure out how they could screw with others since these games started. So that point is moot.

 I mean do you really and truely think that since your on a PvE server with collision detection that asking someone to move so you may get into a dungeon will be enough?
Nope, i sure dont. But it cant be dealt with or not the same way it was in previous PVE games that had collision detection, such as EQ, I believe FFXI and DAOC (which was of course a PVP game but had areas that were PVE only.

Is it believed that if there was a PvE serverm people wouldn't be intentionaly blocking your attacks on a mob for the simple reason they were there first or they want your camp so they will herass you till you leave?
Nope, but again in EQ (which is my main example because it was my main game) all of these things happened. Im not sure about blocking mobs, you had to see the mob to target it but i think you could shoot throw friendlys once it was targetted. Ninja stealing kills, Ninja looting were things that you always had to worry about in the old PVE games, as well as dungeon zerging by guilds trying to beat you to the boss. Again nothing that hasnt been dealt with before.

What happens to the economy when half the items suddenly have no value because no one needs them?
The same thing that happens in Every PVE MMO. You end up with vendor junk because no one wants it anymore. But with item degredation that Darkfall will have that helps a little bit. EQ items didnt degrade so that was a pretty big problem.

What happens when you run out of clan city locations?
Actually a good example, and im not sure. Perhaps make it so if you own a clan city then you actually have to defend it. Clan Wars was an option in EQ and a number of other PVE games. It adds an element of PVP without making it a PVP game. If your guild doesnt want to worry about fighting for the territory then dont take a guild city.

Considering a lot of the quests will be rewarding in Faction and such.... what would be the point in doing them on a PvE server?
Umm, how about for faction. Back in the old days PVE games actually had faction. Questing in new PVE games i complete crap. Questing should be for faction, pimp (but not needed) items, etc. Not about leveling.

I am sorry, the reasoning behind it not being feasable isn't simply because we don't want it. It's because it truely isn't feasible. I mean the Devs would have to go back and change atleast 50% of the game simply for a PvE server.
As i just shown, no they wouldnt. If you break down EQ and Darkfall the main difference is just the PVP. Yes one is class based with skills and the other is skill based what we can argue how different they are in another thread. The games appear (again i say appear because i havent played) pretty similar in what you have to do to play and survive. You can have all that stuff and all those hurdles in a PVE game, just now a WoW/Current style PVE game, but they are crap anyway.

If you can't see that, then you simply haven't thought the idea behind the PvE server through.
It seems i have put some thought into it. And if you cant except the responses i have given then perhaps it is simply that you dont want a PVE server.

Your move.

Originally posted by safwd

 

Im not even sure why i am arguing this because i dont care about a PVE server, but im bored so why not.

Lets all try not to forget that there was PVE prior to the craptastic PVE of WoW and beyond.

Originally posted by GrayGhost79

 

 I am pretty sure I gave more than some because I don't want it to reason lol.

Do people think that just because it is a PvP free server everyone will be caring and sharring? That griefers will suddenly change there ways?
Griefers are in PVE and PVP games, it doesnt matter. There have been people trying to figure out how they could screw with others since these games started. So that point is moot.

With FFA PvP you have a way to deal with griefers, where as in PvE your ultimate weapon is a firm please lol.

 I mean do you really and truely think that since your on a PvE server with collision detection that asking someone to move so you may get into a dungeon will be enough?
Nope, i sure dont. But it cant be dealt with or not the same way it was in previous PVE games that had collision detection, such as EQ, I believe FFXI and DAOC (which was of course a PVP game but had areas that were PVE only.

I must remind you DarkFall has full collision detection, there is no bumping through them eventualy. You can not pass through them, this is part of the programing that would need to be reworked.

Is it believed that if there was a PvE serverm people wouldn't be intentionaly blocking your attacks on a mob for the simple reason they were there first or they want your camp so they will herass you till you leave?
Nope, but again in EQ (which is my main example because it was my main game) all of these things happened. Im not sure about blocking mobs, you had to see the mob to target it but i think you could shoot throw friendlys once it was targetted. Ninja stealing kills, Ninja looting were things that you always had to worry about in the old PVE games, as well as dungeon zerging by guilds trying to beat you to the boss. Again nothing that hasnt been dealt with before.

 

 In DarkFall there is no lockon Target so no you can not shoot through them and there is full collision detection. No matter how much you try to walk through someone it won't happen. 

 

What happens to the economy when half the items suddenly have no value because no one needs them?
The same thing that happens in Every PVE MMO. You end up with vendor junk because no one wants it anymore. But with item degredation that Darkfall will have that helps a little bit. EQ items didnt degrade so that was a pretty big problem.

 

 Can't overly argue about the above. 

 

What happens when you run out of clan city locations?
Actually a good example, and im not sure. Perhaps make it so if you own a clan city then you actually have to defend it. Clan Wars was an option in EQ and a number of other PVE games. It adds an element of PVP without making it a PVP game. If your guild doesnt want to worry about fighting for the territory then dont take a guild city.

 

 So a PvE server ......... with limited PvP then? If people wanted to PvP to defend there territory wouldn't they be on the PvP server?

 

Considering a lot of the quests will be rewarding in Faction and such.... what would be the point in doing them on a PvE server?
Umm, how about for faction. Back in the old days PVE games actually had faction. Questing in new PVE games i complete crap. Questing should be for faction, pimp (but not needed) items, etc. Not about leveling.

 

 That wouldn't be so bad I guess, still not what the majority asking for a PvE server want though. For a PvE server many are going to expect the quests and such, those that generaly make the player made content in other Sandbox games are going to be on the PvP server, this is almost a garuntee. Tournaments, festivals, contests etc are what these people bring. The ones that want the PvE server are not in this group. I made a house in UO called the gauntlet. You paid 1k to try make your way to the top floor, if you made it you recieved a check for 100k if you picked the correct chest. If you picked the wrong chest or stepped on any of the hidden traps along the way you were teleported to the basement which was filled with Dragons. This is what a FFA PvP sandbox brings, the PvE server will not see the same content the PvP server would.

 

I am sorry, the reasoning behind it not being feasable isn't simply because we don't want it. It's because it truely isn't feasible. I mean the Devs would have to go back and change atleast 50% of the game simply for a PvE server.
As i just shown, no they wouldnt. If you break down EQ and Darkfall the main difference is just the PVP. Yes one is class based with skills and the other is skill based what we can argue how different they are in another thread. The games appear (again i say appear because i havent played) pretty similar in what you have to do to play and survive. You can have all that stuff and all those hurdles in a PVE game, just now a WoW/Current style PVE game, but they are crap anyway.

Not really, the system is still built around FFA PvP. I mean the lack of lock on targeting creates many problems due to collision detection. I can herass you all I want and there isn't anything you can do about it without the FFA PvP.  I could herass an entire clan relentlessly. With the type of game Aventurine has made and with what they have said GM intervention on many things would be a very unlikely thing. As a matter of fact Tasos has said the comunity will be expected to deal with it's own problems. Intervention won't come unless it's hacking/cheating/exploits due to bugs etc. So in essence, you would be in a lawless server. No intervention from the GM's and no way to deal with the problems on your own.  The fact remains not only will the majority of the code have to be reworked but so would policy lol.

If you can't see that, then you simply haven't thought the idea behind the PvE server through.
It seems i have put some thought into it. And if you cant except the responses i have given then perhaps it is simply that you dont want a PVE server.

 Not exactly enough though. Not meant as a flame.

Your move.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Your move.

Originally posted by neonwire

Originally posted by JK-Kanosi

A friend suggested DF have PvE servers to pull in more people. What do you think would happen to DF if they offered PvE servers along side normal servers? I argued against PvE servers pointing to Trammel, but really, isn't it like saying there aren't enough PvPers to sustain a PvP server if a PvE server existed? If it is like saying that, then what sort of population do we expect to have in DF?

I wouldn't mind a non-full loot server personally, but I'd be opposed to a PvE server.

 

LMAO!!! What an incredibly ridiculous suggestion. Thats like saying Batllefield should have PvE servers. How would players take over each others cities if they couldnt fight each other? Basicly the first people to build their city would own it FOREVER.

Obviously Darkfall is never going to have a PvE server because its not a dumbass themepark game like all the others. As others have said in this thread people who want pure PvE can fuck off and play every other mmo on the market which caters to them.

I think the population for Darkfall will be fine. In fact I think it will be more than fine because it offers a gaming experience that no other mmo can provide.

So they own it forever. So?

It might appeal to a small minority, just like FFA PvP servers on DAoC appealed to a small minority. If you get 14.95, you get 14.95. Why throw it away.

Sure, a PvE game doesn't make sense, and wouldn't work right with Darkfall. But FFA PvP didn't really make sense or work well with games like DAoC, but people wanted it, so why not give it to them?

 Gee, like one PvE server is going to make the whole Darkfall game fail.

People are basically saying, this game is built for PvP, so a PvE game won't work. Well of course it won't, that doesn't mean some people won't want to play it anyway. PvE games weren't built for FFA PvP, but people wanted to play it anyway, so the devs said sure, give them a PvP server, let them have at it if they really want to. You can do the same with DArkfall. Of course it won't work right, but some people will have fun with it anyways.

Originally posted by Galaturc

This is becoming to be a lengthy topic over nothing. There is no way that Darkfall will have a seperate server for PvE players, that's been stated by the developers many times.

Darkfall is designed around PvP. E.g, there are player cities that have the pure role of improving the PvP aspect of the game. As many already pointed out, without PvP, these cities would just be eye-candies, and they would not change hands - which is against the whole idea. PvE will still be in the game, but it will have several challenges that will require PvP interactions.

I'm going to play devils advocate here, because it doesn't seem you've thought this through. There are many things the cities are there for, PvP being only one of them. What do you do in a real life city? Now why can't you do it in a DF city? Now assuming you can, why does there need to be PvP, since you can do all sorts of stuff in the DF city other than PvP? 

What will PvEers do? They will explore, have adventure, clear out dungeons, build cities, craft, build ships, and etc. Loot doesn't need to be a driving factor for PvE like WoW trained you to believe it does. PvE is about the adventure, and PvP is about conflict. I can't break it down any easier than that.

Originally posted by neonwire

Originally posted by safwd

I have made a few arguements for a PVE server in Darkfall but i really dont want one. So i will respond to the second option the OP stated, Different PVP rules.

I think having a lessend loot policy on a server or two would be a big benefit to Darkfall. I still think you should be able to loot your kill but perhaps only a couple items, or a player can tag a couple items on their body as unlootable. All bags and coin would still be fair game. This way there is still reward for killing someone but it isnt quite as fearful for those who are really turned off by the full loot. And yes i know, loot is not that important but loot will always be important. Perhaps not WoW important but it will be important.

It is all about player base. Opening the game up a little to draw in more players would be a good thing for everyone, expecially the Developer.

Most of the strong arguements against a different server type boil down to the "Because" theory. Darkfall cant work for PVE because, you have to have FFA PVP because. You all might as well just say "Because i dont want it to" because that is all you are saying anyway.
Darkfall could have a PVE server and it would work. Not all PVE is WoW style. EQ was PVE and was not nearly as glamor PVE as WoW. Is it the perfect game for PVE, no it isnt, but it would work as a PVE game. Hell, any game will work as a PVE game as long as there is stuff to kill. There will be NPC mobs, there will be dungeons, there will be bosses in dungeons, there will be areas where you need a big group of people to safely fight, that pretty much sounds like all the elements of PVE right there.

But yes, i too dont think there will be a PVE server for Darkfall nor should there be. PVPers have been waiting long enough for a game that they can call their own. Different PVP rulesets would be nice but either way i will be giving Darkfall a shot, and my interest has nothing to do with PVP what so ever. Darkfall, if it is near what is advertised, will offer far more then PVP.

 

GreyGhost is correct. Darkfall cant have a PvE server simply because it doesnt work. Yes it does have PvE elements included in it but its not a PvE game. In Darkfall players can build cities. Once they are built how is anyone going to destroy them or take them other if they are not allowed to attack each other? It would mean that the first players to get their city built would own it forever like I already said in my post above. Do you see? It doesnt work does it.

Also NO people should not be able to label certain items as non-lootable. Its simply not realistic and completely goes against what Darkfall is all about. The game is a FFA PvP FULL LOOT game and thats the way it should stay. If you remove or reduce the full loot aspect then it reduces the risk and the pain of being killed.......and I'm fed up of death having no penalty in mmos. Dieing in these games has been becoming more and more meaningless to the point where there is hardly any point in playing them. Take WAR for example. All the battles in that game are completely pointless. No-one cares about losing in that game because nothing bad happens when you die and you can be back in the fray in a minute. In Darkfall death is going to hurt as well it should because.....well.....its DEATH!! Its not meant to be pleasant. I hope the death penalty in Darkfall is so severe that it makes people cry! In fact I think the game should electrocute you in your seat for good measure.

Of course plenty of people whine and moan that players will use the fear of death (hilarious!) to "ruin peoples fun" even though death can happen to everyone. Well I personally dont find it fun at all that there is no challenge in any of the current mmos so I welcome the full loot feature in Darkfall with open arms and I know lots of other people do as well. Its about bloody time that we get a real mmo. We certainly dont need Aventurine to start catering to the carebears and pussies.

I'd prefer there to be a perma-death server, so the true hardcore PvPers have a place to play. Let the carebear full loot, yet no perma death PvPers play on a normal server.

Originally posted by GrayGhost79

Originally posted by safwd

 

Im not even sure why i am arguing this because i dont care about a PVE server, but im bored so why not.

Lets all try not to forget that there was PVE prior to the craptastic PVE of WoW and beyond.

Originally posted by GrayGhost79

 

 I am pretty sure I gave more than some because I don't want it to reason lol.

Do people think that just because it is a PvP free server everyone will be caring and sharring? That griefers will suddenly change there ways?
Griefers are in PVE and PVP games, it doesnt matter. There have been people trying to figure out how they could screw with others since these games started. So that point is moot.

With FFA PvP you have a way to deal with griefers, where as in PvE your ultimate weapon is a firm please lol.
True. But again this isnt new. We have had to deal with these things before. I remember back in EQ a guy running around town and coming up to everyone sitting town and typing "Put it in his mouth", or the guy in WoW that would stand in front of my bobber while fishing so i couldnt see it. Asshats are everywhere, not just in games where you can kill them. There are probably more in PVE games because you cant kill them. You just deal with them.

 I mean do you really and truely think that since your on a PvE server with collision detection that asking someone to move so you may get into a dungeon will be enough?
Nope, i sure dont. But it cant be dealt with or not the same way it was in previous PVE games that had collision detection, such as EQ, I believe FFXI and DAOC (which was of course a PVP game but had areas that were PVE only.

I must remind you DarkFall has full collision detection, there is no bumping through them eventualy. You can not pass through them, this is part of the programing that would need to be reworked.

Why must it be reworked? So you cant bump through them. This would in fact suck if someone was willing to stand in front of you for long periods of time but i guess you would just go do something else.

Is it believed that if there was a PvE serverm people wouldn't be intentionaly blocking your attacks on a mob for the simple reason they were there first or they want your camp so they will herass you till you leave?
Nope, but again in EQ (which is my main example because it was my main game) all of these things happened. Im not sure about blocking mobs, you had to see the mob to target it but i think you could shoot throw friendlys once it was targetted. Ninja stealing kills, Ninja looting were things that you always had to worry about in the old PVE games, as well as dungeon zerging by guilds trying to beat you to the boss. Again nothing that hasnt been dealt with before.

 

 In DarkFall there is no lockon Target so no you can not shoot through them and there is full collision detection. No matter how much you try to walk through someone it won't happen. 

You say this alot, i get it, Full Collision Detection.  Unless someone can block a mob from all sides you can work around it by moving. If enough people are stupid enough to waste their time completely blocking every aspect of a mob so you cant kill it then i guess this would be a problem. Unless Darkfall puts in more then 1 mob, then it is just a nuisance.

 

What happens to the economy when half the items suddenly have no value because no one needs them?
The same thing that happens in Every PVE MMO. You end up with vendor junk because no one wants it anymore. But with item degredation that Darkfall will have that helps a little bit. EQ items didnt degrade so that was a pretty big problem.

 

 Can't overly argue about the above. 

 

What happens when you run out of clan city locations?
Actually a good example, and im not sure. Perhaps make it so if you own a clan city then you actually have to defend it. Clan Wars was an option in EQ and a number of other PVE games. It adds an element of PVP without making it a PVP game. If your guild doesnt want to worry about fighting for the territory then dont take a guild city.

 

 So a PvE server ......... with limited PvP then? If people wanted to PvP to defend there territory wouldn't they be on the PvP server?

Because there is almost always limited PVP on a PVE server. Duels, Arenas, Clan Wars are often options of Concentual PVP that you find on PVE servers. The difference is with all those things on a PVE server i can still feel pretty safe that when i walk out the bank someone isnt going to club me. (Me as in the PVEer, not Me as in Me)

 

Considering a lot of the quests will be rewarding in Faction and such.... what would be the point in doing them on a PvE server?
Umm, how about for faction. Back in the old days PVE games actually had faction. Questing in new PVE games i complete crap. Questing should be for faction, pimp (but not needed) items, etc. Not about leveling.

 

 That wouldn't be so bad I guess, still not what the majority asking for a PvE server want though. For a PvE server many are going to expect the quests and such, those that generaly make the player made content in other Sandbox games are going to be on the PvP server, this is almost a garuntee. Tournaments, festivals, contests etc are what these people bring. The ones that want the PvE server are not in this group. I made a house in UO called the gauntlet. You paid 1k to try make your way to the top floor, if you made it you recieved a check for 100k if you picked the correct chest. If you picked the wrong chest or stepped on any of the hidden traps along the way you were teleported to the basement which was filled with Dragons. This is what a FFA PvP sandbox brings, the PvE server will not see the same content the PvP server would.

You are right, not what most current PVE players want in questing. But what the old timers from EQ and FFXI would want i think. Not all but some.
And your house in UO sounds like it was the shit.

 

I am sorry, the reasoning behind it not being feasable isn't simply because we don't want it. It's because it truely isn't feasible. I mean the Devs would have to go back and change atleast 50% of the game simply for a PvE server.
As i just shown, no they wouldnt. If you break down EQ and Darkfall the main difference is just the PVP. Yes one is class based with skills and the other is skill based what we can argue how different they are in another thread. The games appear (again i say appear because i havent played) pretty similar in what you have to do to play and survive. You can have all that stuff and all those hurdles in a PVE game, just now a WoW/Current style PVE game, but they are crap anyway.

Not really, the system is still built around FFA PvP. I mean the lack of lock on targeting creates many problems due to collision detection. I can herass you all I want and there isn't anything you can do about it without the FFA PvP.  I could herass an entire clan relentlessly. With the type of game Aventurine has made and with what they have said GM intervention on many things would be a very unlikely thing. As a matter of fact Tasos has said the comunity will be expected to deal with it's own problems. Intervention won't come unless it's hacking/cheating/exploits due to bugs etc. So in essence, you would be in a lawless server. No intervention from the GM's and no way to deal with the problems on your own.  The fact remains not only will the majority of the code have to be reworked but so would policy lol.

I think your mostly right. It would be a hard world to deal with asses in. But the question is, how bad do they want a PVE server? Bad enough to deal with jackasses who spend their time trying to make your gameplay worse? Perhaps they do want it that bad.

If you can't see that, then you simply haven't thought the idea behind the PvE server through.
It seems i have put some thought into it. And if you cant except the responses i have given then perhaps it is simply that you dont want a PVE server.

 Not exactly enough though. Not meant as a flame.

I think its enough thought. But you are most likely right. Most, probably nearly all, current PVEers would probably not want a PVE server where things were difficult. Sad but true.

Your move.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Your move.

The sparring was fun while it lasted.

Originally posted by safwd

Originally posted by GrayGhost79

Originally posted by safwd

 

Im not even sure why i am arguing this because i dont care about a PVE server, but im bored so why not.

Lets all try not to forget that there was PVE prior to the craptastic PVE of WoW and beyond.

Originally posted by GrayGhost79

 

 I am pretty sure I gave more than some because I don't want it to reason lol.

Do people think that just because it is a PvP free server everyone will be caring and sharring? That griefers will suddenly change there ways?
Griefers are in PVE and PVP games, it doesnt matter. There have been people trying to figure out how they could screw with others since these games started. So that point is moot.

With FFA PvP you have a way to deal with griefers, where as in PvE your ultimate weapon is a firm please lol.
True. But again this isnt new. We have had to deal with these things before. I remember back in EQ a guy running around town and coming up to everyone sitting town and typing "Put it in his mouth", or the guy in WoW that would stand in front of my bobber while fishing so i couldnt see it. Asshats are everywhere, not just in games where you can kill them. There are probably more in PVE games because you cant kill them. You just deal with them.

 I mean do you really and truely think that since your on a PvE server with collision detection that asking someone to move so you may get into a dungeon will be enough?
Nope, i sure dont. But it cant be dealt with or not the same way it was in previous PVE games that had collision detection, such as EQ, I believe FFXI and DAOC (which was of course a PVP game but had areas that were PVE only.

I must remind you DarkFall has full collision detection, there is no bumping through them eventualy. You can not pass through them, this is part of the programing that would need to be reworked.

Why must it be reworked? So you cant bump through them. This would in fact suck if someone was willing to stand in front of you for long periods of time but i guess you would just go do something else.

Is it believed that if there was a PvE serverm people wouldn't be intentionaly blocking your attacks on a mob for the simple reason they were there first or they want your camp so they will herass you till you leave?
Nope, but again in EQ (which is my main example because it was my main game) all of these things happened. Im not sure about blocking mobs, you had to see the mob to target it but i think you could shoot throw friendlys once it was targetted. Ninja stealing kills, Ninja looting were things that you always had to worry about in the old PVE games, as well as dungeon zerging by guilds trying to beat you to the boss. Again nothing that hasnt been dealt with before.

 

 In DarkFall there is no lockon Target so no you can not shoot through them and there is full collision detection. No matter how much you try to walk through someone it won't happen. 

You say this alot, i get it, Full Collision Detection.  Unless someone can block a mob from all sides you can work around it by moving. If enough people are stupid enough to waste their time completely blocking every aspect of a mob so you cant kill it then i guess this would be a problem. Unless Darkfall puts in more then 1 mob, then it is just a nuisance.

 

What happens to the economy when half the items suddenly have no value because no one needs them?
The same thing that happens in Every PVE MMO. You end up with vendor junk because no one wants it anymore. But with item degredation that Darkfall will have that helps a little bit. EQ items didnt degrade so that was a pretty big problem.

 

 Can't overly argue about the above. 

 

What happens when you run out of clan city locations?
Actually a good example, and im not sure. Perhaps make it so if you own a clan city then you actually have to defend it. Clan Wars was an option in EQ and a number of other PVE games. It adds an element of PVP without making it a PVP game. If your guild doesnt want to worry about fighting for the territory then dont take a guild city.

 

 So a PvE server ......... with limited PvP then? If people wanted to PvP to defend there territory wouldn't they be on the PvP server?

Because there is almost always limited PVP on a PVE server. Duels, Arenas, Clan Wars are often options of Concentual PVP that you find on PVE servers. The difference is with all those things on a PVE server i can still feel pretty safe that when i walk out the bank someone isnt going to club me. (Me as in the PVEer, not Me as in Me)

 

Considering a lot of the quests will be rewarding in Faction and such.... what would be the point in doing them on a PvE server?
Umm, how about for faction. Back in the old days PVE games actually had faction. Questing in new PVE games i complete crap. Questing should be for faction, pimp (but not needed) items, etc. Not about leveling.

 

 That wouldn't be so bad I guess, still not what the majority asking for a PvE server want though. For a PvE server many are going to expect the quests and such, those that generaly make the player made content in other Sandbox games are going to be on the PvP server, this is almost a garuntee. Tournaments, festivals, contests etc are what these people bring. The ones that want the PvE server are not in this group. I made a house in UO called the gauntlet. You paid 1k to try make your way to the top floor, if you made it you recieved a check for 100k if you picked the correct chest. If you picked the wrong chest or stepped on any of the hidden traps along the way you were teleported to the basement which was filled with Dragons. This is what a FFA PvP sandbox brings, the PvE server will not see the same content the PvP server would.

You are right, not what most current PVE players want in questing. But what the old timers from EQ and FFXI would want i think. Not all but some.
And your house in UO sounds like it was the shit.

 

I am sorry, the reasoning behind it not being feasable isn't simply because we don't want it. It's because it truely isn't feasible. I mean the Devs would have to go back and change atleast 50% of the game simply for a PvE server.
As i just shown, no they wouldnt. If you break down EQ and Darkfall the main difference is just the PVP. Yes one is class based with skills and the other is skill based what we can argue how different they are in another thread. The games appear (again i say appear because i havent played) pretty similar in what you have to do to play and survive. You can have all that stuff and all those hurdles in a PVE game, just now a WoW/Current style PVE game, but they are crap anyway.

Not really, the system is still built around FFA PvP. I mean the lack of lock on targeting creates many problems due to collision detection. I can herass you all I want and there isn't anything you can do about it without the FFA PvP.  I could herass an entire clan relentlessly. With the type of game Aventurine has made and with what they have said GM intervention on many things would be a very unlikely thing. As a matter of fact Tasos has said the comunity will be expected to deal with it's own problems. Intervention won't come unless it's hacking/cheating/exploits due to bugs etc. So in essence, you would be in a lawless server. No intervention from the GM's and no way to deal with the problems on your own.  The fact remains not only will the majority of the code have to be reworked but so would policy lol.

I think your mostly right. It would be a hard world to deal with asses in. But the question is, how bad do they want a PVE server? Bad enough to deal with jackasses who spend their time trying to make your gameplay worse? Perhaps they do want it that bad.

If you can't see that, then you simply haven't thought the idea behind the PvE server through.
It seems i have put some thought into it. And if you cant except the responses i have given then perhaps it is simply that you dont want a PVE server.

 Not exactly enough though. Not meant as a flame.

I think its enough thought. But you are most likely right. Most, probably nearly all, current PVEers would probably not want a PVE server where things were difficult. Sad but true.

Your move.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Your move.

The sparring was fun while it lasted.

It was and I don't totally disagree with you, fact of the matter is I just really enjoy debates as long as the remain mostly mature and intelligent lol.