Originally posted by Ihmotepp

i disagree because although Darkfall is a sandbox, it's just one type of sandbox.

A sandbox does not require, at all:

1. FFA PvP. See SWG pre-NGE which most people consider a sandbox, NO FFA PvP. See EVE, which has safe areas. See UO, which was still considered a sandbox even after Trammel.

2. Using skills to increase them as a character advancement system. No way you are going to argue that a game cannot be a sandbox unless you use this character advancement system.

3. Full Loot

4. FPS style aiming in combat.

 

NONE of these things are required to be a Sandbox game, and ALL of them are in DArkfall. So a Darkfall failure does not equal a SANDBOX failure.

A Darkfall failure might equal a FFA PvP, Full Loot, FPS style combat, use skills to increase them, failure. 

I 100% agree with your points of what Darkfall has that aren't needed for a sandbox game. In face, I don't even like  points 1, 3, and 4 in my MMO's. What I'm saying is that Darkfall is the first game to break the WoW clone mold in a long time, and it's success or failure could dictate the possibility of a AAA sandbox game being developed in the future. I'm not saying that the AAA will have exactly the features as Darkfall, but if Darkfall fails, the posibility of a AAA sandbox will diminish greatly, as they are only in it for the money, and not to make a great game. If they still only see money available in WoW clone style games, that is all they will produce.

Originally posted by altairzq

Sorry but no. If it is a crappy game it has to fail.

You sound like Mark Jacobs saying that if WAR failed it would be a major problem for the whole industry ROFL

You didn't quite get it. I agree, if it is a crappy game  it should fail. But we should all be cheering for it to be a good game and succeed, for the hope of the entire genre. If another "different" style game comes out and fails, it will only encourage big companies to keep pumping out the same old crap they have been.

WAR's failure would be a great thing for the genre, it would show everyone that people are sick of the same old crap being dumped on us. A game coming out that isn't the same old crap failing would only ensure more of the same old crap is to come.

Originally posted by altairzq

Sorry but no. If it is a crappy game it has to fail.

You sound like Mark Jacobs saying that if WAR failed it would be a major problem for the whole industry ROFL

Like usual, you come to this forum and read what you want to read and post accordingly.

Sorry, I don't cheer for games to be a success that clearly lack a reality check much like DnL, Mourning, and Vanguard. I'm the last person to not want to cheer a game on, especially an indy group, but from my past experience it's just not a feasible project. Perhaps if they were a large team with actual experience (as in previous titles) and worked on this project for this many years, then yes I'd be a hell of a lot less skeptical. In my eyes they're just the typical novice developers that happen to shout more then they develop. I guess some people need the attention in order to continue their project, who knows.

Originally posted by Golomin

Sorry, I don't cheer for games to be a success that clearly lack a reality check much like DnL, Mourning, and Vanguard. I'm the last person to not want to cheer a game on, especially an indy group, but from my past experience it's just not a feasible project. Perhaps if they were a large team with actual experience (as in previous titles) and worked on this project for this many years, then yes I'd be a hell of a lot less skeptical. In my eyes they're just the typical novice developers that happen to shout more then they develop. I guess some people need the attention in order to continue their project, who knows.

Being skeptical is completely fine, and I understand that. I'm saying you should be cheering that they deliver the game they promise, and that the game is good.

I completely understand your skepticism, and agree with you. I don't know if they can actually pull off what they are claiming, but I am hoping they do.

Originally posted by Abrahmm

Originally posted by Golomin

Sorry, I don't cheer for games to be a success that clearly lack a reality check much like DnL, Mourning, and Vanguard. I'm the last person to not want to cheer a game on, especially an indy group, but from my past experience it's just not a feasible project. Perhaps if they were a large team with actual experience (as in previous titles) and worked on this project for this many years, then yes I'd be a hell of a lot less skeptical. In my eyes they're just the typical novice developers that happen to shout more then they develop. I guess some people need the attention in order to continue their project, who knows.

 

Being skeptical is completely fine, and I understand that. I'm saying you should be cheering that they deliver the game they promise, and that the game is good.

I completely understand your skepticism, and agree with you. I don't know if they can actually pull off what they are claiming, but I am hoping they do.

Originally posted by imbant

Originally posted by Abrahmm

Originally posted by Golomin

Sorry, I don't cheer for games to be a success that clearly lack a reality check much like DnL, Mourning, and Vanguard. I'm the last person to not want to cheer a game on, especially an indy group, but from my past experience it's just not a feasible project. Perhaps if they were a large team with actual experience (as in previous titles) and worked on this project for this many years, then yes I'd be a hell of a lot less skeptical. In my eyes they're just the typical novice developers that happen to shout more then they develop. I guess some people need the attention in order to continue their project, who knows.

 

Being skeptical is completely fine, and I understand that. I'm saying you should be cheering that they deliver the game they promise, and that the game is good.

I completely understand your skepticism, and agree with you. I don't know if they can actually pull off what they are claiming, but I am hoping they do.

 

Me too!

Originally posted by Abrahmm

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

i disagree because although Darkfall is a sandbox, it's just one type of sandbox.

A sandbox does not require, at all:

1. FFA PvP. See SWG pre-NGE which most people consider a sandbox, NO FFA PvP. See EVE, which has safe areas. See UO, which was still considered a sandbox even after Trammel.

2. Using skills to increase them as a character advancement system. No way you are going to argue that a game cannot be a sandbox unless you use this character advancement system.

3. Full Loot

4. FPS style aiming in combat.

 

NONE of these things are required to be a Sandbox game, and ALL of them are in DArkfall. So a Darkfall failure does not equal a SANDBOX failure.

A Darkfall failure might equal a FFA PvP, Full Loot, FPS style combat, use skills to increase them, failure. 

 

I 100% agree with your points of what Darkfall has that aren't needed for a sandbox game. In face, I don't even like  points 1, 3, and 4 in my MMO's. What I'm saying is that Darkfall is the first game to break the WoW clone mold in a long time, and it's success or failure could dictate the possibility of a AAA sandbox game being developed in the future. I'm not saying that the AAA will have exactly the features as Darkfall, but if Darkfall fails, the posibility of a AAA sandbox will diminish greatly, as they are only in it for the money, and not to make a great game. If they still only see money available in WoW clone style games, that is all they will produce.

I still disagree. I think it may work like this. If Darkfall succeeds, and I hope it does, that will be GOOD for the future of the sandbox style of MMORPG. It will encourage other dev teams to make more sandbox games, because they see there is a market.

However, if Darkfall fails, I don't see it as necessarily a blow to the "sandbox" design, for the reasons I listed above. Maybe it would mean there's a market for sandbox play, but not necessarily FPS style aim to shoot combat, for example.

I hope it's a success. I'm more of a sci-fi fan ..but..  I think DF may beable to convert me over..

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Originally posted by Abrahmm

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

i disagree because although Darkfall is a sandbox, it's just one type of sandbox.

A sandbox does not require, at all:

1. FFA PvP. See SWG pre-NGE which most people consider a sandbox, NO FFA PvP. See EVE, which has safe areas. See UO, which was still considered a sandbox even after Trammel.

2. Using skills to increase them as a character advancement system. No way you are going to argue that a game cannot be a sandbox unless you use this character advancement system.

3. Full Loot

4. FPS style aiming in combat.

 

NONE of these things are required to be a Sandbox game, and ALL of them are in DArkfall. So a Darkfall failure does not equal a SANDBOX failure.

A Darkfall failure might equal a FFA PvP, Full Loot, FPS style combat, use skills to increase them, failure. 

 

I 100% agree with your points of what Darkfall has that aren't needed for a sandbox game. In face, I don't even like  points 1, 3, and 4 in my MMO's. What I'm saying is that Darkfall is the first game to break the WoW clone mold in a long time, and it's success or failure could dictate the possibility of a AAA sandbox game being developed in the future. I'm not saying that the AAA will have exactly the features as Darkfall, but if Darkfall fails, the posibility of a AAA sandbox will diminish greatly, as they are only in it for the money, and not to make a great game. If they still only see money available in WoW clone style games, that is all they will produce.

 

I still disagree. I think it may work like this. If Darkfall succeeds, and I hope it does, that will be GOOD for the future of the sandbox style of MMORPG. It will encourage other dev teams to make more sandbox games, because they see there is a market.

However, if Darkfall fails, I don't see it as necessarily a blow to the "sandbox" design, for the reasons I listed above. Maybe it would mean there's a market for sandbox play, but not necessarily FPS style aim to shoot combat, for example.

it is the total point that if DF failes. the reason will not matter much. it will show the money men that it is not worth the cash to try to break form the WOW format.  that is why i wish DF the best
 

I played UO back in 1999 and loved it. The game had a lot going for it and I would occasionally say to my friends " What a cool game this is. Just imagine what we will be playing 10 years from now!"

You see, I imagined that they would take the concept of having an online world like UO and expand
On the epicness and openness of the gaming experience with better and better graphics.

After about a year of playing UO I heard about EQ and shortly after started playing EQ. And I thought
"OK, this is a step in the right direction. It has better graphics and 3D. The world was a nice size and
varied a lot. There are a great number of races and starting cities. The dungeons were sculpted
beautifully. And the mob AI was really something to behold."

EQ and UO were great games, but completely different in design concept.As far as game design there was so much to learn from these two examples. What worked
and what didn’t work.

As a player I saw what worked and what didn’t work in these games ,as I’m sure all of you
did too. BUT it seemed like the devs in the industry did not. Instead they focused on the problems
and tightened the reigns, putting more and more control over the players. Almost to the point of
making the MMOs feel like platform games. e.g. Zelda, Crash Bandicoot...

It has now been 10 years since the dawn of MMOs and the progression of these games getting better
and better just didn’t happen. Instead they got worse and worse.

Darkfall is FINALLY the next step in MMORPGs. UO -> EQ/AC -> Darkfall.
I’m not being a Fanboi here. At this point I’m just referring to the game concept. I am wishing
for them to be successful because I want MMOs to continue down the right path of open
and epic game play.

Originally posted by omni40

it is the total point that if DF failes. the reason will not matter much. it will show the money men that it is not worth the cash to try to break form the WOW format.  that is why i wish DF the best
 

 

Maybe the money men will think you just need prettier graphics than Darkfall.

i couldn't agree with this sentiment more.

i seriously have to wonder about anyone wanting DF to fail - they cannot be gamers, no real gamer would want something as ambitiously bold and different as DF to fail.

the MMO genre has grown so stale and repetitive these past few years it needs a breakthrough game like Darkfall to break the knitting simulator stereotype. love or hate it, Darkfall doing well can only be good for the industry.

I won't cheer for Darkfall, it seems those kind of games breed a special kind of fanboy, extremely persistent and annoying.

i am praying that darkfall will be a success. from all my posts on this site i think darkfall has come the closest to what i wanted in a mmo. it has all my arguments of what is wrong with mmo's these days. why cant we stop doing levels and be about skills? it has that. why cant we play how we want instead of pick one class? it has that. why does it have to always be point and click why cant we do realtime? it even has that for all of you who said it couldnt be done. why do games force you to play 4 hours just to accomplish one thing? it fixes that problem.

Originally posted by Abrahmm

Whether you like DF or not, follow the drama or not, argue pointlessly or not,  like it or not Darkfall's release could very well be an incredibly important point in MMO history. Darkfall will be the first game to break the WoW clone mold in a long time, and it's success or failure could have a strong dictation on the future of the genre. If Darkfall is a big success(not WoW big, but Eve big), it could open the eyes of some bigger companies to start putting thought, creativity, and originality back into their games, instead of just dumping in whatever WoW features they think will make them a quick buck and shipping it out.

Failure of Darkfall, even if it is for reasons beyond basic mechanics(poor launch, lots of bugs, ect) could cause all of the big companies to even further close themselves off from the sandbox style game so many of us crave, and encourage them to pump out even more half aborted WoW abominations.

Whether you like it or not, for the sake of this genre, and the thinking man's MMO sanity, everyone should be cheering for Darkfall.

that is the problem right there

companies that are able to release games quite rapidly (SOE comes to mind) do not want the "Eve big" they are greedy and want the "WoW big"

only smaller indy companies that give alot of their time and effort to make old school games (games that are complete and full of decent content (eary CCP days comes to mind) and fun gameplay are the ones that are going to inovate.

after my intro to marketing class i took in university it states in the book that it is much easier to penetrate a market rather than inovate. so larger corporations such as SOE Mythic Funcom will take the penetration aproach wich is summarized in these words "if WoW is successfull lets make something identical to WoW but better to take away their custumer base (or create competition)"

their better was (in the case of AoC) better  graphics and different combat concept

in WAR their better was graphics and (i have not really looked much into this game to make an intelligent response to WAR)

but they fail at producing the same quality. and they also fail to see the reason WHY did blizzard pick those graphics style (pretty much any computer can run it thus more people can play the game thus more subs for WoW)

AoC, i did not buy it simply because i know my computer can;t run it.  thats a lost sub right there and i am sure there are many in my position, those are lost subs.

Darkfall will be a turning point in mmo history but not one that will decide fates of styles unless it reaches 5-10 mil subs.  EvE would have convinced the mmo industry already if that was the case.

Originally posted by Golomin

Sorry, I don't cheer for games to be a success that clearly lack a reality check much like DnL, Mourning, and Vanguard. I'm the last person to not want to cheer a game on, especially an indy group, but from my past experience it's just not a feasible project. Perhaps if they were a large team with actual experience (as in previous titles) and worked on this project for this many years, then yes I'd be a hell of a lot less skeptical. In my eyes they're just the typical novice developers that happen to shout more then they develop. I guess some people need the attention in order to continue their project, who knows.

I'm not sure what you are talking about by saying they shout more than they develop because they haven't hyped their game its actually more of the trolls/fans that are hyping this game and being skeptic is 100% correct, we should not blindly believe this will be the best mmo ever but we have to hope that it will be so that we will get something new thats actually good, and for your DnL,Mourning, and Vanguard examples, well not all games have to be like that, look at EVE

Guild Wars tried something different, but it will never come close to WoW

On this topic I will agree, it is better for Darkfall to succeed than for it to fail, regardless of the dynamics behind the game.  The genre is in need of a shake up, but I fear that if Darkfall fails, that we will be doomed to vanilla mmo's for quite some time.

The MMO genre needs bad fresh ideas and a change of paradigm.

Game developer mentality need to rule over salesman mentalitty.

Big company's need a kick in the ass.

And we gamers  need a fun to play game again.

All good reasons.

ppl cheer for a true hero to succeed...they don't cheer for a charlatan...only other charlatans/simple-minded folk would.

Originally posted by hanshotfirst

Originally posted by Abrahmm

Originally posted by hanshotfirst

I'm all for the success of Darkfall if it means you whiney "thinking man's MMO" nerds stfu already about "sandboxes" and "WoW clones".

 

Aren't you being just a little selfish? You have a plethora of "hold your hand" theme park MMO's, and you are telling us to "shut up and be happy" with 2 or 3 "think for yourself"  MMOs? Very selfish....

 

I'm being selfish?

Are you not encouraging people to blindly throw their support behind this game (even if it turns out to be a complete disaster) just to further your own agenda? Isn't that the entire premise of this thread?

Look, I have nothing to gain by either the success or failure of Darkfall (or any other MMO for that matter). I'm just sick of the divisive and elitist crap people of your ilk keep spouting over "half aborted WoW abominations" and "hold your hand" theme parks.

So you like sandboxes? Good for you. You're still every bit as much a nerd as the rest of us video gaming dweebs. You are not special. You are not a beautiful or unique snowflake. Get over yourself and lay off the condescending "thinking man" bullsh!t, plz.

 

Very well said.

Originally posted by Thatim

Originally posted by hanshotfirst

Originally posted by Abrahmm

Originally posted by hanshotfirst

I'm all for the success of Darkfall if it means you whiney "thinking man's MMO" nerds stfu already about "sandboxes" and "WoW clones".

 

Aren't you being just a little selfish? You have a plethora of "hold your hand" theme park MMO's, and you are telling us to "shut up and be happy" with 2 or 3 "think for yourself"  MMOs? Very selfish....

 

I'm being selfish?

Are you not encouraging people to blindly throw their support behind this game (even if it turns out to be a complete disaster) just to further your own agenda? Isn't that the entire premise of this thread?

Look, I have nothing to gain by either the success or failure of Darkfall (or any other MMO for that matter). I'm just sick of the divisive and elitist crap people of your ilk keep spouting over "half aborted WoW abominations" and "hold your hand" theme parks.

So you like sandboxes? Good for you. You're still every bit as much a nerd as the rest of us video gaming dweebs. You are not special. You are not a beautiful or unique snowflake. Get over yourself and lay off the condescending "thinking man" bullsh!t, plz.

 

 

Very well said.

Maybe well said, but he eithe has some reading disability or didn't even read the original post.  All he said is that people should be 'cheering' for Darkfall to be a success.  He doesn't say that people should blindly throw their support behind the game if it's crappy.  A successful game is going to be a good one.

I do have to agree about the 'thinking man' comment though.  That was pretty silly.  Otherwise I agree with the original poster, people should want this game to be successful.

Originally posted by hanshotfirst

Originally posted by Abrahmm

Originally posted by hanshotfirst

I'm all for the success of Darkfall if it means you whiney "thinking man's MMO" nerds stfu already about "sandboxes" and "WoW clones".

 Aren't you being just a little selfish? You have a plethora of "hold your hand" theme park MMO's, and you are telling us to "shut up and be happy" with 2 or 3 "think for yourself"  MMOs? Very selfish....

 I'm being selfish?

Are you not encouraging people to blindly throw their support behind this game (even if it turns out to be a complete disaster) just to further your own agenda? Isn't that the entire premise of this thread?

Look, I have nothing to gain by either the success or failure of Darkfall (or any other MMO for that matter). I'm just sick of the divisive and elitist crap people of your ilk keep spouting over "half aborted WoW abominations" and "hold your hand" theme parks.

So you like sandboxes? Good for you. You're still every bit as much a nerd as the rest of us video gaming dweebs. You are not special. You are not a beautiful or unique snowflake. Get over yourself and lay off the condescending "thinking man" bullsh!t, plz.

Abrahmm is exactly right.  Whether you're into Darkfall or not, if you are a real MMO gamer, you should want this game to succeed.  And the bigger its success, the better.  It's going against the stale mold (pun intended. take it to mean either definition) that have become typical of MMOs.  Aventurine is not throwing together a superficial game intended to make a quick buck.  They are building one that looks like it will offer its players many layers of gaming options.  And if it is a big success, a lot of these other companies should get the message.

Handshotfirst, you are missing the point entirely.  Abrahmm is not encouraging anyone to blindly support Darkfall.  If the game is bad, then it should fail.  What he is saying, I believe, is that he is hoping it delivers on everything (or close to everything) it claims it will do.  That way, it will show other companies that it is worth putting the time and effort and money into such huge projects.

And you're wrong if you say you have nothing to gain by Darkfall's success, if you are a serious gamer.  It could open the door to a whole slew of great new games in the future.  Of course, if you already enjoy the same old boring games the industry continues to crank out on an assembly line, then I could see where you wouldn't care what happens to Darkfall.

Originally posted by -aLpHa-

I won't cheer for Darkfall, it seems those kind of games breed a special kind of fanboy, extremely persistent and annoying.

So close minded lol.  The pure pve games have just as many if not more annoying leet gamers, they just brag about pve accomplishments and belittle others that are not as advanced in dungeons....vs pvp griefers who call you a gimp when they beat you.

I have always found pvp commnunities to be more mature and helpful, and it isnt even close.