Originally posted by FTPMMO

Originally posted by Lexin

Just because a game has the most subscribers does not make it #1 there is more to it then subscribers.

 

It is easy to agree, it's just that with the 11M subscribers(I'm not one of them though.) it is so far ahead of all the others. That is what makes all the comparisons with popstars and fastfood restaurants irrellevant. WOW is like the only big success MMO. Probably because the MMO genre is so young, but for the time being you have none other area so dominated by one brand maybe with the exeption of Microsoft. Just elaborating the argument. And the examples I tempt to make not valid is from other posts in this thread, so no offense. WOW is where the MMOs as a genre stand right now, it's the beacon whether  you like the light or not. 

Guess he never got the memo haha.... WOW isnt the mmo witht he most subs worldwide... hate to rian on your parade.

Wow is what it is because gamers these days are all ezmode carebears. Kids dont liek a challenge and blizzard was smart enough to create a game designed for the lowest common denominator... nuff said.

Originally posted by nikoliath

Originally posted by SignusM

 Anyone who has been around longer than 4 years will tell you, yes, there are very likely 20 MMOs BETTER than WoW. EASILY. 

list them

1. UO

2. Eve

3. Dransik

4. Ashen Empires

5.Lineage

6.Lineage2

7.Eq

8/Eq2

9.EQOA (Ps2)

10. RYL

11.War

12. Archlord

13. COH

14. COV

15. DAOC

16. Dofus

17. FoM

18. FFXI

19. GW:F

20. GW:N

21. Helbreath

22. Ogre Island

23. POTBS

24. PT

25. Ragnarok Online

26. Rappelz

27. RuneScape

28. Ryzom

29. SWG

30. TR

oh wait u only asked for 20.. ooops

Originally posted by Zayne3145

Several reasons:

- Everyone plays WoW. It is no longer niche and 'underground' which instantly makes it uncool.

- Caters to casual gameplay. This is a bad thing. Although noone has quite stated why.

- There are a lot of old schoolers here who like to grumble like old men about 'the good old days'.

- It's fun to hate on the big guy.

- Capitalism is evil. Blizzard make ridiculous amounts of money and are therefore Capitalists.

- A website like this attracts people who are vocal and outspoken.

and of course....

- Those who once loved WoW and got burnt out on it. They now act like it is the worst POS ever because they are bittter that it consumed so much of their life and is used as a scapegoat for their addictive personality.

QFT, my thoughts exactly.
 

Also all these discussions about which game is better and why have always bewildered me. Wether a game is the best or not is subjective. If I think WoW is the best then it is to me, if I think EvE is the best then it is to me etc. etc. etc.  All that matters is what you like. Therefore play what you like and forget about what others think.

Here are some reasons why WoW is so vastly popular but also vastly hated.

WoW came into the genre with a Huge Name already on it. This brought in a whole crowd of stand alone game players into the MMO genre who really werent here before.

First game (and maybe only to date) that really attracted both the asian market and western market. Others have done it (like FFXI) but not to the extent of WoW.

It is a good looking game that was made so non graphically intensive that you can play it on a lunch box. And im not saying this is a bad thing, its great.

WoW put the casual in casual gamer. You can play WoW if your hardcore, medium or very casual and still have the opportunity to do it all. As i casual gamer i feel WoW is too casual but that is just my opinion.

WoW got rid of all those pesky time sinks people cry about (again im not in agreement here) and left in only 1 new timesink- Quest grinding.

And the saddest, but probably most viable, reason WoW is still on top, Its better then everything else that has come out over the last 3 years. (This is very argueable, but while i hate dislike WoW myself i still think it is the best game that has come out in the last 3 or so years.

Now, why is it hated.

It is Too casual. There is no risk reward in WoW, there is only reward. You cant have risk if you arent afraid of losing anything and you never lose anything in WoW. Sure people will say that you lose time if you die in a dungeon and have to go all the way back but you are only losing time that you are playing a game, not working on a cure for cancer. Also WoW brings out the stupid in people because again, you can do stupid things in WoW because it doesnt matter if you get killed doing it, or kill everyone your with.

WoW really did nothing new for the MMO genre. They took alot from other games, simplified it and made it accessable to all. Im not saying this as a hit, WoW is awesome for what it is, but people who want more really start to hate hearing how AWESOME WoW is and then begin to blast on it.

And probably the thing I hate most about WoW (and it isnt even WoWs fault). Because of how popular WoW is it nearly destroyed all original thinking in MMO development. Back when us "Old Timers" started playing MMOs there was deversity. UO, AC and EQ were the big dogs and they were all a bit different. Then DAOC and FFXI came along and it was a bit different.
WoW came around a couple years later and since then all we have had are developers trying to feed off WoWs numbers by making games as close to WoW as they could.

So thats my 2 cents about WoW that no one cares about. Im bored at work though so what the heck.

It's all opinions.

And obviously, the type of people that visit mmorpg.com have different opinions than the type of people who never visit any kind of forum whatsoever.

The typical mmorpg.com visitor does not rate WoW high. This doesn't mean that other people (have to) agree with the mmorpg.com rating.

And then there are of course fanbois and haters. The hater group for all that is big on these forums is quite large.

Originally posted by Cabe2323

20 Better? 

...

8.  EvE (Even though it was never really the game for me)

...

 

For me MMOs are not just a game, they are more like virtual fantasy world ... Thats why WoW was ranked so low - its just great game but very bad MMO... WoW is just too static and predefined

Originally posted by Tincanalley

Originally posted by beauxaj

It maybe silly to have an issue with this line, but when it comes to meaningful PVP, the ability to make REAL money through PVP kinda makes it meaningful.   It may not be you or I but to those arena teams who made it to the real world finals and can get paid..... Now thats meaningful.  In regards to the gameworld not so meaningful in regards to real life cash... HELL yes it means something and I can say I'm not laughing about its pvp simply for that reason. 

Wait.

By your logic, does that make PvE in WoW even more meaningful than PvP if someone could make even more money selling epic runs or farmed loot for real cash?

And by that same logic, does that make WoW goldfarming and powerleveling equally or possibly even more meaningful than either one of those since those seem to be where the real money is at?

I'm just curious.

It seems odd to me that someone making money by (more-than-likely) breaking the ToS of your game would be an argument as to why PvP is somehow better than that of another game.

Seems like more of a detriment to me.

Way to take something WAAAAAAAAAAAY out of context.   I stated 2 things.

1. PVP in WoW is not a laughing matter because it allows real money to be made.

2. Because you can make real money in pvp it is meaningful to some.

What you have tried to to is take an illegal activity and force it into a factual and LEGAL statement to twist it to your own ends.

On another note,  was there anywhere in my statement where I said WoW had BETTER PVP?  The poster stated 2 things, PVP is a laughingstock and meaningless, I refuted those statements showing that pvp doesn't make everyone laugh and it is meaningful to some.  Trying to make a correlation based upon that is grasping at straws that aren't there.

Originally posted by berniebear

Originally posted by nikoliath

Originally posted by SignusM

 Anyone who has been around longer than 4 years will tell you, yes, there are very likely 20 MMOs BETTER than WoW. EASILY. 

list them

1. UO 

2. Eve

3. Dransik

4. Ashen Empires

5.Lineage

6.Lineage2

7.Eq

8/Eq2

9.EQOA (Ps2)

10. RYL

11.War

12. Archlord

13. COH

14. COV

15. DAOC

16. Dofus

17. FoM

18. FFXI

19. GW:F

20. GW:N

21. Helbreath

22. Ogre Island

23. POTBS

24. PT

25. Ragnarok Online

26. Rappelz

27. RuneScape

28. Ryzom

29. SWG

30. TR

oh wait u only asked for 20.. ooops

These are all based upon your opinion though.  In my opinion only 6 or 7 of your list are better than WoW and there are a couple more that I would add to the list to place above WoW that didn't make your list. 

Originally posted by beauxaj

Originally posted by berniebear

Originally posted by nikoliath

Originally posted by SignusM

 Anyone who has been around longer than 4 years will tell you, yes, there are very likely 20 MMOs BETTER than WoW. EASILY. 

list them

1. UO 

2. Eve

3. Dransik

4. Ashen Empires

5.Lineage

6.Lineage2

7.Eq

8/Eq2

9.EQOA (Ps2)

10. RYL

11.War

12. Archlord

13. COH

14. COV

15. DAOC

16. Dofus

17. FoM

18. FFXI

19. GW:F

20. GW:N

21. Helbreath

22. Ogre Island

23. POTBS

24. PT

25. Ragnarok Online

26. Rappelz

27. RuneScape

28. Ryzom

29. SWG

30. TR

oh wait u only asked for 20.. ooops

 

These are all based upon your opinion though.  In my opinion only 6 or 7 of your list are better than WoW and there are a couple more that I would add to the list to place above WoW that didn't make your list. 

He forgot Dark and Light, too.

Its obvious to me that number of subs is directly related to ratings and rankings,  if more people pay to play a game is obvious they enjoy it more than the other products (consider it a better product) on the market,  one person can say whatever they want in a "review" they can come up with a million excuses as to why every another game is better but the sheer numbers tell a different story 11 million (or the 4-5million in EU/NA if your one of those that think we shouldnt count asia) people would rather play WoW than your "better MMO".

Quality and how good it is, is so subjective that there is no way to scale anything beyond personal opinion in this matter, so we as a society use an easier system which can be summed up as "how many people like this?" and this is used to determine the overall quality of anything really.

 WoW is the best MMO on the market atm, i wouldnt even think of subbing anywhere else. Yes there is alot of WoW haters and thats because 11 million MMO players are within WoW and enjoy it for what it is.
People who say WoW isnt with the top ranked "within which ranks" i will not know, are either worried that there game is losing subs or total <Mod edit>.
11 million players worldwide says it all 

Originally posted by ackmhed

These threads crack me up. I love it when the so-called "hard-cores" come crawling out of the wood-work and bash WoW because it is too "easy", or accessible, or whatever. The fact of the matter is that the only thing that truely counts is what game has active, paying subscribers. All of you that are still basking in the glory days of EQ1, DAoC, etc. are so eager to point out how great having "real" consequences to PvP or dying, or whatever, up until it comes time to actually pay for your beloved game. If it your number-one-deserves-more-players-than-it-has-hard-core-game is so great, then why are the sub numbers so low? I played EQ1 back in the day, and while it was great at the time I would never go back. And judging by it's current subs, neither are most of the WoW haters.

WoW not only is the best MMO of all time, it is probably the best PC game ever. Period. Talk is cheap, but paying subs and box sales are what pays the bills. The fact is is that people play MMO's to have fun. And whatever you hate about WoW, there is no denying that people don't pay monthly fees to play a game that is not fun.

The truth is, quite a few MMO players just like to bitch. And WoW's wild success gives them great fodder to garner the attention they crave by complaining about a game that is so popular.

Stupid argument. If paying subscribers the only thing that matters in a game then why are all those small niche mmo's still active? Many of them are free or have a limited free option in their game even. What about all those multiplayer games that you can play online. They are completely free. Paying subscribers only matter for the bean counters. For the players it only got a limited influence, and that influence is if the numbers fall too low the server/s will be empty and the game in danger of being shut down.

WoW's the best game ever made? Nope, not in a long shot. Granted it's one the most polished mmo's ever made but that is only cause it had the success it had. If any other mmo had that success they would be just as polished. What do you say when WoW numbers start dwindling? It will happen sooner or later. By your logic it would then be another one of all those 'shitty' mmo's hardly worth even a mention and you would be chasing the next bit thing out there.

Again, the numbers WoW got is meaningless. A billion flies like shit, so shit must be good yes? By your argument, it is.

Originally posted by beauxaj

Originally posted by slask777

Originally posted by riceae02

Hmm ...

Looked at the list ... saw that Tabula Rasa was rated higher than WoW.

 

Nothing more needs to be said.

 

Tabula Rasa is a nice game for it's niche. I'm sure the fans of the game is quite upset that it will fold after new years eve. To make a comparison, I think Eve is the pukestain of the mmo market and you have to find spreadsheets exciting to actually like and play that game, but it got it's fans and is still retains a healthy subscriberbase.

WoW is disliked around here cause of it's simplicity and casuality. Most people around here are old mmo players who seen, and played most of them. They like the hardcore playstyle and enjoy a challenge. Most of WoW ain't hardcore, and certainly aint a challenge. It's a fun game though. Granted some of the raids can be a little challenging, but that is only till you learn the scripted events the boss do. After that you can do them in your sleep. PvP is a joke in WoW and the arenas the laughingstock of the community. Why is pvp a joke in WoW? It got absolutely no influence at all on the gameworld and is just a meaningless grind to get a shiny or two. Same with the arena. People don't even care if some dude is running around in s4 stuff or whatever session they are at now. It will be outdated the next session anyway. Hell, even the old game Anarchy Online had more meaningful pvp than WoW got at the moment.

 

It maybe silly to have an issue with this line, but when it comes to meaningful PVP, the ability to make REAL money through PVP kinda makes it meaningful.   It may not be you or I but to those arena teams who made it to the real world finals and can get paid..... Now thats meaningful.  In regards to the gameworld not so meaningful in regards to real life cash... HELL yes it means something and I can say I'm not laughing about its pvp simply for that reason. 

 

How does that got anything to do with the gameworld? That some dick won some award at being the biggest gaming nerd? Nope, WoW's pvp is meaningless as it got no influence at all on the game world. Besides e-sports like these are the end of true gaming. Gaming should be about having fun, not winning awards and money. Another point of the destructive influence WoW got on the mmo world. It's a good game yes, but it's way too successful and by that drowning all competition bringing the overall mmo quality down, even it's own. It's already started. Just look at how little they give back compared to all the revenue they get in, and all those shitty WoW-copies we got around now.

Edit: Actually forget it. Arguing with you idiot fanboys is making me dislike the game, and I don't want that to happen.

Originally posted by Tincanalley

We seem to be in agreement. Popularity doesn't prove quality, nor does it disprove quality. It just means it's popular.

And just as there are good reasons for it's popularity among it's subscriber base, there are also good reasons for it's apparent lack of popularity on MMORPG.com.

Apparent being the key word.  Just because game XXX is the highest rated MMO on this site, doesn't make it the best game either.  The rating system here is highly flawed. 

I prefer a rating system like what Metacritic or Gamerankings.com uses.  It takes all the professional reviews and averages them out for an overall rating.  Professional reviews tend to be less biased.  Each individual reviewer has there own bias, but they aren't just reviewing it for themselves, they also are publishing it for whomever they work for and that tends to prevent them from really skewing their review.  They won't have a job too long if they continually have biased reviews.  Plus since it's published for everyone to see, it has to be pretty fair.  They have to come up with what they believe to be valid arguments as to why they are giving it the rating they are.  Then when you average them all out, you get a pretty fair rating system.  Metacritic and Gamerankings.com both have WoW as the highest rated MMORPG, which just means that it got the best average reviews. 

So not only is it popular among the paying subscribers, but it's also popular with professional reviewers as well.  At some point you have to start wondering why it's so popular when people are voting with their wallets and when people are giving their professional opinion, but then not so popular when people are free to give it any rating they want deserved or not.

I am currently playing 2 MMOs.  WAR and EQ2.  If I had the time I would play a 3rd and that would be Lineage 2.  I started playing MMOs in '99.  I did have fun for a time in wow, but have no desire to pick it up again, ever.  The mindless gear and faction grind is in a word insulting, not to mention boring.  The classes cookie-cutter.  I hate raids.   Also, I started playing warcraft games in '95 and I believe that for the sake of a quick buck blizzard has sold out the lore and history of their own franchise.  Paladins on the Horde ?  Alliance Death Knights ?  This is a game for the kiddies.

Originally posted by Tyvolus1

Also, I started playing warcraft games in '95 and I believe that for the sake of a quick buck blizzard has sold out the lore and history of their own franchise.  Paladins on the Horde ?  Alliance Death Knights ?  This is a game for the kiddies.

You do realize that the lore and history are fictional?  It's made up?  By Blizzard?  So they can change it?  Anytime they want?  You do realize this yes?

Originally posted by Boltonsquad

 WoW is the best MMO on the market atm, i wouldnt even think of subbing anywhere else. Yes there is alot of WoW haters and thats because 11 million MMO players are within WoW and enjoy it for what it is.

People who say WoW isnt with the top ranked "within which ranks" i will not know, are either worried that there game is losing subs or total retards.

11 million players worldwide says it all 

No, actually all it says is that its the most popular game of its genre.

Sure, it is some reflection of its quality, but feature for feature WOW is generic and shallow (IMHO of course) versus my game of choice, EVE. (which most people despise)

I don't need to be one of the masses to know EVE is superior.  (and like so many have pointed out, better is sometimes an extremely subjective thing)

I'll concede one more point... if I was investing my own money to make a new game, I'd rather have WOW's sub numbers than EVE.  (but thats strictly from a business perspective, some things in the world are created just for their artistic value, fortunately)

Originally posted by Terranah

Originally posted by bodypass

The only real rating system is the payed subscriptions rating system.

The vote that gets paid by everyones wallet.

Wow: 5 stars (4.5 to 5 million western based subscriptions)

ALL others: 0.25 to 0.5 stars (no other can present better proven based subscriptions).

Everyone can give free "0's" on a free website.

But for subscriptions you have to pay, so the subscription bases are the only valid rating system for paid MMORPG.

----

Does that mean Wow is 10 times better. No, but if the players have to CHOOSE, Wow is chosen by the community of paying PC game players. Not by a bunch of MMORPG.COM frustrated (because their game isn't invented yet) people.

 

 

I agree.  People can bitch and complain or sing praises for their respective games, but ultimately people vote with their wallets and in business that is the only vote that counts.

This. 

/thread

Originally posted by beauxaj

Originally posted by Tincanalley

Originally posted by beauxaj

It maybe silly to have an issue with this line, but when it comes to meaningful PVP, the ability to make REAL money through PVP kinda makes it meaningful.   It may not be you or I but to those arena teams who made it to the real world finals and can get paid..... Now thats meaningful.  In regards to the gameworld not so meaningful in regards to real life cash... HELL yes it means something and I can say I'm not laughing about its pvp simply for that reason. 

Wait.

By your logic, does that make PvE in WoW even more meaningful than PvP if someone could make even more money selling epic runs or farmed loot for real cash?

And by that same logic, does that make WoW goldfarming and powerleveling equally or possibly even more meaningful than either one of those since those seem to be where the real money is at?

I'm just curious.

It seems odd to me that someone making money by (more-than-likely) breaking the ToS of your game would be an argument as to why PvP is somehow better than that of another game.

Seems like more of a detriment to me.

Way to take something WAAAAAAAAAAAY out of context.   I stated 2 things.

1. PVP in WoW is not a laughing matter because it allows real money to be made.

2. Because you can make real money in pvp it is meaningful to some.

What you have tried to to is take an illegal activity and force it into a factual and LEGAL statement to twist it to your own ends.

On another note,  was there anywhere in my statement where I said WoW had BETTER PVP?  The poster stated 2 things, PVP is a laughingstock and meaningless, I refuted those statements showing that pvp doesn't make everyone laugh and it is meaningful to some.  Trying to make a correlation based upon that is grasping at straws that aren't there.

It appears to be you who's taken words out of context. Had you bothered to explore what the poster you were trying to respond to meant in his use of the words "meaningful" or "laughable" you wouldn't have needed to post.

Basically, what you've claimed so far is that PvP in WoW is both "meaningful" and not something to be laughed at due to the fact that there are people out there making money off of it by breaking their ToS and selling  rank status.

Were you picking nits or just trying to make WoW look bad?

Originally posted by Tyvolus1

I am currently playing 2 MMOs.  WAR and EQ2.  If I had the time I would play a 3rd and that would be Lineage 2.  I started playing MMOs in '99.  I did have fun for a time in wow, but have no desire to pick it up again, ever.  The mindless gear and faction grind is in a word insulting, not to mention boring.  The classes cookie-cutter.  I hate raids.   Also, I started playing warcraft games in '95 and I believe that for the sake of a quick buck blizzard has sold out the lore and history of their own franchise.  Paladins on the Horde ?  Alliance Death Knights ?  This is a game for the kiddies.

In my opinion your post was great up untill the last statement. There is no need to throw an uncalled for insult into an otherwise intelligent post, not to mention it is one of the most tired remarks used bout WoW. It is not a game for kiddies, it is just a game. If you like it play it, if you don't then don't.

Also before you ask, No I don't play WoW.

a) Professional opinion - I'm sure other game developers dislike WoW.  Not just because it's popular, but because they have the numbers and their game is decent at best.  Casual gamers love how easy it is, while developers hate how casual gamers could love it.

b) Pseudo-professional opinion - All the press loves it.  They look just at numbers.  If there's a couple million people playing it because they've never played an MMO and this one is much easier than the other ones out there, they see it as a couple million votes for why this game is amazing.

c) A typical PC-gamer's opinion - A typical PC gamer, such as one from the games listed, would not really care about WoW.  There are other PC games that sell better because there's a much larger market for a game where you have a gun and shoot such and such enemy.

d) The 'Veteran' - Well, let's start out by not including ANYONE that has WoW as their first MMO.  They have been tainted.  Considering -real- veterans, they've seen there's mechanics out there that the casual gamer can't handle, so WoW obviously can't include them.  These mechanics are small pieces of every MMO that came before WoW.  They are the things that kept us attached to those games.  WoW ignores all unique mechanics and takes a generic approach to it all so that no one feels negative emotions while playing the game.  Who wants that?

I would like to say WoW is best at what it does...

But as a game and MMO for me, it has never been sufficient and wouldn't end up on any list at all...

I played it and didnt like it at all, it's a very well made game, but IMO it's more like a game in the class of Toonwown online that also is a well made game..

As you can see it's all about taste..

And as a comment about McDonals, many of my friends claims that McDonalds is bad, yet they eat there...Why ?

Can the same thing be said about World Of Warcraft maybe..

We humans work in mysterious ways !!!!

/junker

I agree with Laz, that statement was good until the end. I disagree with the Paladins on Horde and DK's on alliance, as if you read the lore, you can make sense of it all. I mean yes, perhaps there wouldn't be billions of paladins on the Horde side but it's a MMO so obviously you're going to have things happen t hat wouldn't really happen due to so many users and the like.

I disagree with those that say since the game is popular, that it means it's "great." Then again, I suppose it depends on your definition of "great" but quantity doesn't say anything about quality. It just means that Blizzard has done an excellent job of captivating a large group of the masses with its game. It has PvP for people who just wanna beat the crap outta other users online and get gear rewards etc, while it has PvE and questing for those who enjoy mostly ingame lore and of course for leveling. It also has the aspect that, "Hey, we have a world, lore and pretty environments" so that attracts RPers some-what as well. Yadyah, I think you get my point. ^_~ 

I'm not experienced enough with other MMOs to have a huge opinion about this. I haven't played Guild Wars in a while, for example so Guild Wars might have improved since last time I played. I couldn't get past the beginning of LotR to enjoy it at all, but I hear that it gets better as you go onward... etc. Personally I don't think 20 MMOs are better than WoW, but I do believe that there are a lot of games that have better aspects that WoW does in some areas such as lore, graphics, PvE content etc..

And let's face it. A lot of MMOs step on eachother's toes these days.

Originally posted by Recant

Originally posted by daarco

WoW is a popular MMO, not a good one. Same with McDonalds and Britney Spears. Its a difference.

 

Hahahahaha!  This was epic.  Totally made my day.  Thank you Recant.