These forums are populated by a relatively small group of people who primarily hate wow. WoW is the best MMO overall, not the 20th LOL.

Many of use are bitter because we miss the days when MMO's were truly hard to level up in, we miss the fear of a heavy death penalty, we miss player housing/cities, we miss forced grouping, and we miss SWG pre-cu.  PvP'ers miss meaningful PvP, like DAOC, or UO. 

This doesnt make WoW a lousy MMO... WoW is a fanstastic MMO it just doesnt suit most of the player base on THIS particular website. 

The average person finds it difficult to stomach any of the other inferior products currently on the market at this point after playing WoW.... thats why WoW continues to retain its population.. and even continue to grow despite newer games coming out for the past four years.... needless to say most of the people who hang out here on these forums are not those players =)

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Originally posted by Gameloading
You can argue about personal opinions all you like, the undeniable fact is that World of Warcraft and its expansions are rated above and beyond every single mmorpg ever released, and World of Warcraft has received more awards than any other mmorpg to date.
Ofcourse you always have the people would rather prefer their inferior niche mmorpg and will make invalid claims by comparing it to britney spears and Mcdonalds, completely ignoring the fact that WoW's biggest achievement is its critical acclaim.

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I wouldn't be too fuzzed about ratings in this site. You need to remember its primary function, that being a source of information of alternatives MMOs to play. People come here to find something different to play. Thus there is a big bias against games they currently play and towards games they have expectations for (see DFO as most recent example) and games that offer something different.

You don't come to this site if you haven't considered changing your current MMO. And you usually don't hype the game you're looking forward to change with something else.

The only real rating system is the payed subscriptions rating system.

The vote that gets paid by everyones wallet.

Wow: 5 stars (4.5 to 5 million western based subscriptions)

ALL others: 0.25 to 0.5 stars (no other can present better proven based subscriptions).

Everyone can give free "0's" on a free website.

But for subscriptions you have to pay, so the subscription bases are the only valid rating system for paid MMORPG.

----

Does that mean Wow is 10 times better. No, but if the players have to CHOOSE, Wow is chosen by the community of paying PC game players. Not by a bunch of MMORPG.COM frustrated (because their game isn't invented yet) people.

Originally posted by bodypass

The only real rating system is the payed subscriptions rating system.

The vote that gets paid by everyones wallet.

Wow: 5 stars (4.5 to 5 million western based subscriptions)

ALL others: 0.25 to 0.5 stars (no other can present better proven based subscriptions).

Everyone can give free "0's" on a free website.

But for subscriptions you have to pay, so the subscription bases are the only valid rating system for paid MMORPG.

----

Does that mean Wow is 10 times better. No, but if the players have to CHOOSE, Wow is chosen by the community of paying PC game players. Not by a bunch of MMORPG.COM frustrated (because their game isn't invented yet) people.

 

I agree.  People can bitch and complain or sing praises for their respective games, but ultimately people vote with their wallets and in business that is the only vote that counts.

One thing that cannot be overlooked when talking about WoW is the community. WoW has the worst community that I have ever seen in my 10 years of playing MMOs, including the f2p games marketed towards kids. The community/playerbase, for me, detracts from any positive qualities the game has. I played for 6 months with some college friends... but I decided if I wanted to be verbally abused by a 14 year old I'd go work at a mall.

I would say most people that frequent mmo sites are more hardcore thus more hard on games like WoW, which is very simplistic.  So you have to take rankings on any site with a grain of salt.  The majority of the paying customers apparently find WoW very fun and entertaining.

WoW is a ok game, has it's good points and it's bad ones.  I don't play it anymore because I think it's end game design is terrible but that is my opinion, but I don't think I'd rank it that low.

Several reasons:

- Everyone plays WoW. It is no longer niche and 'underground' which instantly makes it uncool.

- Caters to casual gameplay. This is a bad thing. Although noone has quite stated why.

- There are a lot of old schoolers here who like to grumble like old men about 'the good old days'.

- It's fun to hate on the big guy.

- Capitalism is evil. Blizzard make ridiculous amounts of money and are therefore Capitalists.

- A website like this attracts people who are vocal and outspoken.

and of course....

- Those who once loved WoW and got burnt out on it. They now act like it is the worst POS ever because they are bittter that it consumed so much of their life and is used as a scapegoat for their addictive personality.

Originally posted by Recant

Originally posted by daarco

WoW is a popular MMO, not a good one. Same with McDonalds and Britney Spears. Its a difference.

 

I take it that we can assume that your answer to my question would be "yes, there are at least 20 better MMORPGs than World of Warcraft'?   I'm not going to use this thread to debunk the McDonalds/Spears theory, ignore my sig :p.

Its obvious that 11million subs is succes but as other already mentioned that dont mean its good.

I say WoW is avarage mmo not more the 8/10 only becouse its polished for mass, other wise i would even give it max 7/10.

But its all matter of taste opinion on defenition of whats good and whats not we all have our own favorites.

For me best mmo's untill todate is AC or for others prolly WoW lol.

I hope future for me will be Darkfall as best mmo's ever:)

Originally posted by Recant

 

Do you honestly believe that there are 20 better  MMORPGs than WoW (or at least closely comparable)?  

As they add more games to the website people try out other games and some like those more than WoW. As with things that get really really popular they also get picked on and made fun of. Some examples are:

1.Hair bands in the 80s

2.Gangsta rap

3.McDonalds/fast food

Just because someone doesn't like WoW it doesn't mean they are a troll. They just don't like it and move on. Its when people think others might think like they do and keep annoying each other to try to change their opinion things get nasty. This applies to both trolls and fanbois. How people can take things personal on the internet confuses me.

Originally posted by bodypass

The only real rating system is the payed subscriptions rating system.

The vote that gets paid by everyones wallet.

Wow: 5 stars (4.5 to 5 million western based subscriptions)

ALL others: 0.25 to 0.5 stars (no other can present better proven based subscriptions).

Everyone can give free "0's" on a free website.

But for subscriptions you have to pay, so the subscription bases are the only valid rating system for paid MMORPG.

----

Does that mean Wow is 10 times better. No, but if the players have to CHOOSE, Wow is chosen by the community of paying PC game players. Not by a bunch of MMORPG.COM frustrated (because their game isn't invented yet) people.

 

Here, again, we see how people mistakenly think that subscriber numbers = quality which, as has been shown, time and again, is simply not the case. This is why the McDonalds/Spears comparisons keep popping up. They are the counter-argument to the assertion. If sales are really what matter in MMOs, then sales must also be the only thing that matters when it comes to food or music as well. The logical conclusion is naturally that McDonalds food and Spears' music are the best choices available. An assertion that I'm not sure many people are going to agree with.

One thing that's missing in from the popularity discussion is "taste". And you can only develop the discernment necessary to have "taste" by sampling a variety of items from the menu. The more variety you have experienced, the better your discernment becomes. One thing that seems clear is that many of posters on MMORPG.com have had a wide range experience with different MMOs, enough experience to be able to put their opinion of WoW into perspective.

I may not agree that 20th is the appropriate spot for WoW, and perhaps that placement is biased by a certain dislike of WoW due to it's impact on MMO development, or whatever. But it's the member base here that has voted, not the 11million subscribers to WoW, a vast majority of whom have never played anything else.

Originally posted by Tincanalley

Originally posted by bodypass

The only real rating system is the payed subscriptions rating system.

The vote that gets paid by everyones wallet.

Wow: 5 stars (4.5 to 5 million western based subscriptions)

ALL others: 0.25 to 0.5 stars (no other can present better proven based subscriptions).

Everyone can give free "0's" on a free website.

But for subscriptions you have to pay, so the subscription bases are the only valid rating system for paid MMORPG.

----

Does that mean Wow is 10 times better. No, but if the players have to CHOOSE, Wow is chosen by the community of paying PC game players. Not by a bunch of MMORPG.COM frustrated (because their game isn't invented yet) people.

 

Here, again, we see how people mistakenly think that subscriber numbers = quality which, as has been shown, time and again, is simply not the case. This is why the McDonalds/Spears comparisons keep popping up. They are the counter-argument to the assertion. If sales are really what matter in MMOs, then sales must also be the only thing that matters when it comes to food or music as well. The logical conclusion is naturally that McDonalds food and Spears' music are the best choices available. An assertion that I'm not sure many people are going to agree with.

One thing that's missing in from the popularity discussion is "taste". And you can only develop the discernment necessary to have "taste" by sampling a variety of items from the menu. The more variety you have experienced, the better your discernment becomes. One thing that seems clear is that many of posters on MMORPG.com have had a wide range experience with different MMOs, enough experience to be able to put their opinion of WoW into perspective.

I may not agree that 20th is the appropriate spot for WoW, and perhaps that placement is biased by a certain dislike of WoW due to it's impact on MMO development, or whatever. But it's the member base here that has voted, not the 11million subscribers to WoW, a vast majority of whom have never played anything else.

You missed his whole point.  He didn't say that because WoW has more subscribers it's the best.  He said that the majority of people have made it their choice of MMO's to play and to him that means more than whether it's the best or not.  For many people, the popular choice is the best choice.  Your mileage may vary.

Originally posted by Pappy13

You missed his whole point.  He didn't say that because WoW has more subscribers it's the best.  He said that the majority of people have made it their choice of MMO's to play and to him that means more than whether it's the best or not.  For many people, the popular choice is the best choice.  Your mileage may vary.

That's what he's implying. "Subscription bases are the only valid rating system for paid MMORPG"? Versus the collective opinion of people who've played numerous MMOs and actually have alternative experiences to compare against... Really?

The more people who pay to play the game, the higher the rating should be? Hmmm. Sounds like the same old "argument" to me. Unless you can assume that a high rating doesn't correlate with game quality. But then, what WOULD it correlate with? Popularity? That would be kind of meaningless. Though I suppose there are people who play games or buy things solely BECAUSE they are popular.

maybe not 20,  off the top of my head i recon there are around 10.  Much better MMO's than WoW (from all viewpoints) they just lack in certain areas or (quite simply) people dont enjoy the lore.

why does WoW have 11 million subs?  marketing mostly.  There is a real lack of MMO's in my area and WoW flooded the market.  At 3 local stores there are always at least 5 copies of WoW on the shelf.  i have seen 1 copy of City of Heroes floating around, 2 SWG ones and i have seen (very rarely) Everquest 2 and Ultima online boxes.  The only real contender to WoW is Lotro which tends to have 3 copies around and gamecards.

Same situation with Coke.  I've seen coke being sold in small shops in the middle of Africa, you cant beat good marketing and distribution.

I can't find 20 mmorpgs in the list that I will clasify as "better than WoW". In the other hand I doubt WoW is the best MMORPG out there.

To the OP: Damn weird question mate, you have a point!

Not 5 years brits first hit was in 1999 with hit me one more time so she has had almost 10 years. but that is off top. WoW is a good game and a great starter game but has not depth .

Hmm ...

Looked at the list ... saw that Tabula Rasa was rated higher than WoW.

Nothing more needs to be said.

Originally posted by riceae02

Hmm ...

Looked at the list ... saw that Tabula Rasa was rated higher than WoW.

 

Nothing more needs to be said.

I actually took a look at the list myself as well finally, He's absolutely correct,  I've played just about every game on the list there except Atlantica Online..yet and its pretty much just people hyping and bashing.  I have to say this of course when my beloved Asheron's Call is ranked below WoW and Its definately one I would have put in the "Better than WoW" category.  But again, its ALL personal opinion.  For instance, I didn't really like EQ1 compared to UO, AC1, DAOC, EQ2, Ryzom, CoX or even WoW.  heck, I like Shadowbane more than EQ1. Its just my opinion though. 

Originally posted by riceae02

Hmm ...

Looked at the list ... saw that Tabula Rasa was rated higher than WoW.

 

Nothing more needs to be said.

Tabula Rasa is a nice game for it's niche. I'm sure the fans of the game is quite upset that it will fold after new years eve. To make a comparison, I think Eve is the pukestain of the mmo market and you have to find spreadsheets exciting to actually like and play that game, but it got it's fans and is still retains a healthy subscriberbase.

WoW is disliked around here cause of it's simplicity and casuality. Most people around here are old mmo players who seen, and played most of them. They like the hardcore playstyle and enjoy a challenge. Most of WoW ain't hardcore, and certainly aint a challenge. It's a fun game though. Granted some of the raids can be a little challenging, but that is only till you learn the scripted events the boss do. After that you can do them in your sleep. PvP is a joke in WoW and the arenas the laughingstock of the community. Why is pvp a joke in WoW? It got absolutely no influence at all on the gameworld and is just a meaningless grind to get a shiny or two. Same with the arena. People don't even care if some dude is running around in s4 stuff or whatever session they are at now. It will be outdated the next session anyway. Hell, even the old game Anarchy Online had more meaningful pvp than WoW got at the moment.

Originally posted by Ravanos

Originally posted by Dreamagram

As "better" is a matter of opinion, there is no right or wrong answer. It seems 11 million people have the opinion that WoW is better than the others though. Just an observation.

And those saying WoW is like Britney Spears ("popularity doesn't mean it's good") might want to consider that it could also be like R.E.M. - popularity doesn't mean it's bad either. And comparing entertainment to food is just silly. ;-)

 

but were not comparing the food to entertainment were comparing the numbers and if numbers of people served = quality like so many wowbois think ... then obviously Mcdonalds having served so many people must mean it has the best product out there right?

you can look at other genres heck lets stick with entertainment ... Movies. With the same formula "most served = best", the best film ever made would be titanic as it is the largest grossing movie ever.

Okay, we are talking about food vrs video games.  A Video game is leisure activity.  Food is a life necessity.

McDonalds is home for the poor, the starving college student, and the lazy.  You can get burgers for .49$, are you going to tell me that a family that has trouble making ends meat, a college student struggling to make ends meat, and some lazy joe shmo is not going to buy that .49$ burger instead of that 9 dollar burger and fries at some other restaurant?

Its the dumbest of all comparisons anyone can make.  Food =/= Leisure.  It is an impossible comparison. 

There are too many other factors to compare why McDonalds is popular fast food restaurant in comparison to WoW being a popular video game.

Like I said you are comparing leisure to a life nessesisity.  Not a possible comparison at all.

Originally posted by Tincanalley

Originally posted by Pappy13

You missed his whole point.  He didn't say that because WoW has more subscribers it's the best.  He said that the majority of people have made it their choice of MMO's to play and to him that means more than whether it's the best or not.  For many people, the popular choice is the best choice.  Your mileage may vary.

That's what he's implying. "Subscription bases are the only valid rating system for paid MMORPG"? Versus the collective opinion of people who've played numerous MMOs and actually have alternative experiences to compare against... Really?

The more people who pay to play the game, the higher the rating should be? Hmmm. Sounds like the same old "argument" to me. Unless you can assume that a high rating doesn't correlate with game quality. But then, what WOULD it correlate with? Popularity? That would be kind of meaningless. Though I suppose there are people who play games or buy things solely BECAUSE they are popular.

 

No, but simply clicking an a 1 or 10 in a free rating system is a rather poor way to do it wouldn't you agree?  People can put in a value of 1 to 10 in a rating system and it has absolutely zero effect on them.  It costs them nothing to vote and therefore they may not be voting with their conscience but rather with their pride, arrogance, anger, prejudice or something else.  People are a LOT more objective when they are voting with their wallets and therefore it's a more acurate rating system.  That's his point.  Now that doesn't mean that the most popular is always the best, it just means that it's the most popular.  The hard part is determining why it's the most popular.

These threads crack me up. I love it when the so-called "hard-cores" come crawling out of the wood-work and bash WoW because it is too "easy", or accessible, or whatever. The fact of the matter is that the only thing that truely counts is what game has active, paying subscribers. All of you that are still basking in the glory days of EQ1, DAoC, etc. are so eager to point out how great having "real" consequences to PvP or dying, or whatever, up until it comes time to actually pay for your beloved game. If it your number-one-deserves-more-players-than-it-has-hard-core-game is so great, then why are the sub numbers so low? I played EQ1 back in the day, and while it was great at the time I would never go back. And judging by it's current subs, neither are most of the WoW haters.

WoW not only is the best MMO of all time, it is probably the best PC game ever. Period. Talk is cheap, but paying subs and box sales are what pays the bills. The fact is is that people play MMO's to have fun. And whatever you hate about WoW, there is no denying that people don't pay monthly fees to play a game that is not fun.

The truth is, quite a few MMO players just like to bitch. And WoW's wild success gives them great fodder to garner the attention they crave by complaining about a game that is so popular.

Originally posted by slask777

Originally posted by riceae02

Hmm ...

Looked at the list ... saw that Tabula Rasa was rated higher than WoW.

 

Nothing more needs to be said.

 

Tabula Rasa is a nice game for it's niche. I'm sure the fans of the game is quite upset that it will fold after new years eve. To make a comparison, I think Eve is the pukestain of the mmo market and you have to find spreadsheets exciting to actually like and play that game, but it got it's fans and is still retains a healthy subscriberbase.

WoW is disliked around here cause of it's simplicity and casuality. Most people around here are old mmo players who seen, and played most of them. They like the hardcore playstyle and enjoy a challenge. Most of WoW ain't hardcore, and certainly aint a challenge. It's a fun game though. Granted some of the raids can be a little challenging, but that is only till you learn the scripted events the boss do. After that you can do them in your sleep. PvP is a joke in WoW and the arenas the laughingstock of the community. Why is pvp a joke in WoW? It got absolutely no influence at all on the gameworld and is just a meaningless grind to get a shiny or two. Same with the arena. People don't even care if some dude is running around in s4 stuff or whatever session they are at now. It will be outdated the next session anyway. Hell, even the old game Anarchy Online had more meaningful pvp than WoW got at the moment.

It maybe silly to have an issue with this line, but when it comes to meaningful PVP, the ability to make REAL money through PVP kinda makes it meaningful.   It may not be you or I but to those arena teams who made it to the real world finals and can get paid..... Now thats meaningful.  In regards to the gameworld not so meaningful in regards to real life cash... HELL yes it means something and I can say I'm not laughing about its pvp simply for that reason. 

Originally posted by Pappy13

Originally posted by Tincanalley

Originally posted by Pappy13

You missed his whole point.  He didn't say that because WoW has more subscribers it's the best.  He said that the majority of people have made it their choice of MMO's to play and to him that means more than whether it's the best or not.  For many people, the popular choice is the best choice.  Your mileage may vary.

That's what he's implying. "Subscription bases are the only valid rating system for paid MMORPG"? Versus the collective opinion of people who've played numerous MMOs and actually have alternative experiences to compare against... Really?

The more people who pay to play the game, the higher the rating should be? Hmmm. Sounds like the same old "argument" to me. Unless you can assume that a high rating doesn't correlate with game quality. But then, what WOULD it correlate with? Popularity? That would be kind of meaningless. Though I suppose there are people who play games or buy things solely BECAUSE they are popular.

 

 

No, but simply clicking an a 1 or 10 in a free rating system is a rather poor way to do it wouldn't you agree?  People can put in a value of 1 to 10 in a rating system and it has absolutely zero effect on them.  It costs them nothing to vote and therefore they may not be voting with their conscience but rather with their pride, arrogance, anger, prejudice or something else.  People are a LOT more objective when they are voting with their wallets and therefore it's a more acurate rating system.  That's his point.  Now that doesn't mean that the most popular is always the best, it just means that it's the most popular.  The hard part is determining why it's the most popular.

We seem to be in agreement. Popularity doesn't prove quality, nor does it disprove quality. It just means it's popular.

And just as there are good reasons for it's popularity among it's subscriber base, there are also good reasons for it's apparent lack of popularity on MMORPG.com.

Originally posted by beauxaj

It maybe silly to have an issue with this line, but when it comes to meaningful PVP, the ability to make REAL money through PVP kinda makes it meaningful.   It may not be you or I but to those arena teams who made it to the real world finals and can get paid..... Now thats meaningful.  In regards to the gameworld not so meaningful in regards to real life cash... HELL yes it means something and I can say I'm not laughing about its pvp simply for that reason. 

Wait.

By your logic, does that make PvE in WoW even more meaningful than PvP if someone could make even more money selling epic runs or farmed loot for real cash?

And by that same logic, does that make WoW goldfarming and powerleveling equally or possibly even more meaningful than either one of those since those seem to be where the real money is at?

I'm just curious.

It seems odd to me that someone making money by (more-than-likely) breaking the ToS of your game would be an argument as to why PvP is somehow better than that of another game.

Seems like more of a detriment to me.