you may have noticed in these forums theres a lot of mmo fans that hate wow . i ve been playing mmos on and off since 2001 . i ve proberbly tried nearly all of them with the exception of lineage and the original everquest . i ve also tried a lot of the f2p ones . in my view i dont see a lot wrong in wow . it plays well on the average home system its easy enough to pick up and has a good learning curve . i admit its got a pretty bad community when you compare it to something like lord of the rings (in my view also a great mmo) .

so what is it you hate about warcraft and what is it you would rather be playing ?

(in my view the best mmos i ve played are warcraft ,warhammer , eve , lord of the rings and city of heroes

the worst vaguard , final fantasy and ddo)

I liked Asheron's Call in it's day. Mostly because it had an evolving story that the devs actually took an active part in, and every month you could expect something new. Monthly updates in AC were unlike anything I've seen in an MMO since. I would love to see an AC3 with updated graphics but holding true to the original design. Maybe throw in some melee combos ala AoC so it's not all auto attack.

Dark Age of Camelot, if Mythic would open up a new server and disallow transfers for six months.

Basically, speaking for myself, as a "hardcore mmo fan" I miss three things no longer present in modern MMO's:

1.  Freedom.  I want to strike out on my own after looking at a crude map and not be led somewhere by a bread crumb trail of minor quests.

2.  Consequences.  I want dying to take some sting such as experience point loss or major armor degradation, so that I can once again respect the haunted forests or the forbidding dungeons.

3.  Challenge and earned rewards.  I want to be proud of my gear and the effort it took to earn it, rather than have a bunch of uber "welfare" gear that everyone gets from doing silly easy fed-ex quests.  Also, big tough looking monsters should be tough.  An 8 foot tall demon with rippling muscles should be hard to take down, and not go down more easily than a deer; mobs should make sense.

There are other game elements I seek, but I would settle with the above.

If you really want to understand the context of what "hardcore mmo" gamers find themselves in, imagine if you took a bunch of rugged bikers, removed their motorcycles (Harley's and Honda's all go bye-bye) and replaced them with adult-size tricycles.  And then told them they could only ride on the sidewalk.

That's the mess "hardcore mmo" gamers find themselves in today's gaming market.

I don't hate WoW, I think it's a pretty good game for what it is. I just don't like what it is. I don't like level based, class based, freedomless games. I want a virutal world with my game, not a themepark. I want to build cities, make an impact on the world. Customize my character exactly how I want it, not how the developer has decided my class should be.

EVERQUEST OMG BEST GAME EVER

WHY: Its difficult.  Not in the sense that its actually hard, jsut in the sense that you cant run around and be stupid without consequence, especially pre-Planes of Power.  If you had any items with stats on them by level 30 it was rather impressive.  You would have to work very had and decide which spells you could afford as oppose to spend 2% of you rmoney each time you level.  Traveling was treacherous and not done for 5 silver whlie you go afk on a gryphon ride.  The community was great, you could find groups almost anywhere all the time, and you needed groups, soloing was very slow and unheard of for many classes until later expansions.  The raiding was epic, mad epic.  It wasnt an endgame saturated game, you could have as much fun at 35 as at 60.  For me the expansions got a bit over the top and subtracted from these elements.  But thats what I want...

Because not everyone likes what you do?

Games that cater to specific subset of MMO gamers - Generally successful
Games that try to be everything to everyone ala WoW2 - Expensive, epic failures

WoW has always been and continues to be a great game.  It's just not for everyone.

I dont think so many people hate WoW. It is just can anger when WoW fans start to talk about how great WoW is and is saying nothing. Yes WoW is very nice example of MMORPG, marketing, W3 name and simplicity made it in that way. But how it is different from Eq2 for example? Graphics same, eq2 have more quests (and they are really better and more interesting), better crafting system, but one problem it is a bit harder to play then WoW.

There is no point of which WoW is bad, but it is just average in everything. Also there is other games which have way better PvP system....

yea thats it.every forum i go to on this site and others all i see is wow clone thats bs,ive even een a few try to say wow was the first mmo ever again bs,wow players make us hate wow and them

Hum...Judging by the OPs 'best game' list, they aren't much into competition.

Yes, I noticed Eve up there, and yes that is a highly competitive game. I've ranted about Eve before with other players, and in the long run the PvP is not hard in any way, shape, or form. It's interesting to have the constant threat of violence and death imminent in open space where some great goodies are hiding, but in practical application is boils down to most players running around like chickens with their heads cut off.

Basically those games to 'hardcore gamers' in general, not just MMO players, is about as riveting as shooting fish in a barrel.

Most players don't have skill, therefore most major games don't require it so they can have the largest possible player base.

Then there's niche games that cater to particular gaming groups. Like Eve online lets players sit back and lay out their intentions as they watch their character/ships grow (figuratively and occasionally literally).

And then there's the skill based games where progress is measured in player kill to death ratios, time spent alive, how much damage one took (less being better), and how efficiently you can do all that.

It's this last group that actual hardcore gamers fall into and not just 'gamers that spend too much time in front of a screen'.

We like depth to our tasks, risks and penalties to our mistakes, and nuances to our game play that creates tiers of skill we can only achieve by not just playing, but playing well. Hardcore gamers are the one's who like to take rewards and pile them behind difficult challenges. Not just long ones, but truly hard ones. Bosses with actual unique traits we have to find an interesting way to bypass, not by just waving a magic crafted wand, but by tinkering with the level, solving puzzles as we brain things senseless while the boss is running us down, etc.

We want memorable moments rather than cookie cutter quest lines that any old 'raid party' could do.

It's the exact reason I love tactical shooters so much, and the exact reason I love Planetside so much.

What I want?

I want Planetside2. Give me that game with up to date challenging faction AI, space combat similar to SW Battlefront 2, new gear/weapon system to include a more interesting way to customize stuff, additional distractions like monthly events and themes/quests, and updated graphics/physics purely for the 'shiny'.

That's my opinion at least.

I'm more of a Sci-fi fan and If you're like me only game to play Is eve for that geeky sci-fi fix.

WoW was decent while I played but It can't compare to the amount of options I have in Eve.

Once playing Eve online I tried to go back to wow, I found myself getting pissed off at the lack of choices I had.

The limited pvp and Meaningless crafting.

I would rather play a game that's going to take me years to master. Not one that takes me 3-4 weeks to hit cap.  Then I get to sit around and wait until a guild master tells me when to play, tells me how to spec and how to gear myself like I am some sort of freaking mmo slave.

Eve has more choices, more freedom, cool spaceships and pvp that scares the shit out of players obsessed with gear.

Originally posted by Xiliaro

EVERQUEST OMG BEST GAME EVER

WHY: Its difficult.  Not in the sense that its actually hard, jsut in the sense that you cant run around and be stupid without consequence, especially pre-Planes of Power.  If you had any items with stats on them by level 30 it was rather impressive.  You would have to work very had and decide which spells you could afford as oppose to spend 2% of you rmoney each time you level.  Traveling was treacherous and not done for 5 silver whlie you go afk on a gryphon ride.  The community was great, you could find groups almost anywhere all the time, and you needed groups, soloing was very slow and unheard of for many classes until later expansions.  The raiding was epic, mad epic.  It wasnt an endgame saturated game, you could have as much fun at 35 as at 60.  For me the expansions got a bit over the top and subtracted from these elements.  But thats what I want...

    Part of the problem that I had with WoW was that I started in Everquest for almost 5 years before I started to play WoW.......If I had never played Everquest then I probably would have liked WoW alot more.....It isnt a bad game but it is just too dumbed down and too easy if you come from a more challenging game......Alot of us that came from EQ just thought that WoW basically took similar game mechanics and made them easy.......It also felt like they took alot of skill out of the gameplay and just replaced it with uber gear......

Originally posted by Theocritus

Originally posted by Xiliaro

EVERQUEST OMG BEST GAME EVER

WHY: Its difficult.  Not in the sense that its actually hard, jsut in the sense that you cant run around and be stupid without consequence, especially pre-Planes of Power.  If you had any items with stats on them by level 30 it was rather impressive.  You would have to work very had and decide which spells you could afford as oppose to spend 2% of you rmoney each time you level.  Traveling was treacherous and not done for 5 silver whlie you go afk on a gryphon ride.  The community was great, you could find groups almost anywhere all the time, and you needed groups, soloing was very slow and unheard of for many classes until later expansions.  The raiding was epic, mad epic.  It wasnt an endgame saturated game, you could have as much fun at 35 as at 60.  For me the expansions got a bit over the top and subtracted from these elements.  But thats what I want...

 

    Part of the problem that I had with WoW was that I started in Everquest for almost 5 years before I started to play WoW.......If I had never played Everquest then I probably would have liked WoW alot more.....It isnt a bad game but it is just too dumbed down and too easy if you come from a more challenging game......Alot of us that came from EQ just thought that WoW basically took similar game mechanics and made them easy.......It also felt like they took alot of skill out of the gameplay and just replaced it with uber gear......

What the above two said sums it up for me.
 

If they were to make an EQ3 that was based off original EQ ruleset and not EQ2 i would be all over it.

Originally posted by Deivos

 

We want memorable moments rather than cookie cutter quest lines that any old 'raid party' could do.

 

Exactly how i feel, and I haven't had any truely memorable great moments since i played DAoC. Sadly it was the only game (before clustering) where fighting for your realm ment something and you felt good that you accomplished something with your realm.

Obviously im biased towards PvP games but what i feel is lacking in almost every game that has come out in the last few years that has had PvP in it is the fact that there is nothing to fight for as a realm/side/group or w/e. Everything is for personal gain (items, gold, or even just saying haha i killed you) and not for any type of gain or loss as a whole. Relics affected everyone in your realm, so it gave meaning for everyone on your side to help, and fighting to take your enemies relic or defending the ones you had usually turned into a massive battle and led to many memorable moments playing MMOs for me. I wish someone else would add a system like the relics into a PvP based game because i would be all over it in a heart beat. 

WoW used to have challenges and was a good game.

I had lots of great moments in WoW both pre-tbc and in tbc

But this expansion has turned WoW into a sad, uninspired cash-in

It's not casual friendly. It's noob friendly. As long as you have the time to show up, you get all your epics with ease, and without having to know how to play properly.

It's not good players who get rewards, it's whoever has more time to show up more often. That's all you need. Log on like an addict and have everything handed to you.

It's a sad, tired formula, and frankly, I want an exciting, new, challenging and rewarding game - where there is still much to achieve and a rich, dynamic (read: game world changing) endgame to explore

Warhammer has it.

Taking enemy lands and sieging their capital cities, making the opposing faction unable to even use their auction houses and merchants because their entire city is on fire.

And getting epics and rewards no one has ever seen yet

So yeah, Warhammer is what I'm playing atm.

WoW is game over.

Even I do not hate WoW (currently I'm even palying it) there are many aspects of WoW that I dislike and found the main reasons many peoples talk against WoW. Of course there are many aspects of WoW that I like but they are not enought to satisfy my passion to MMOs.

To make RL comparison WoW is like luxury SPA hotel. After Blizzard created the first such hotel on sea cost and most peoples was really excited about. Then everyone started to create such hotels. Now entire sea cost is full with luxury building and there is no wild place left where you can go and and really relax far away from the society. I HATE that fact. Not WoW. I really preffer to go on some secluded wild camping site but I cant, because every such place is already build up with shining buildings, and only crap places left.

I really know that when new MMO society grow up enougth it will come back to the nature, to the more wild and real MMOs. For now I can only "have fun" in that solid luxury SPA hetel - WoW.

My favorite was FFXI but im the type that if you dont stick too a game that you start at the same time the game starts. its not worth it. like i wouldnt not wait a year and then join a game. I hate when lots of ppl are higher then you. Guild wars was that way. great till you get too level 20 then it sucked. FFXI was great but then i took a break and when i got back my char was deleted and when i started a new char... it sucked being newb again. So my opinion is wait for new MMO too come out and when they come out JOIN NOW lol.

Originally posted by Deivos

We want memorable moments rather than cookie cutter quest lines that any old 'raid party' could do.

I agree with that.

EQ1 was memorable for me because of how hard and unforgiving it was. I can still remember Corpse's runs in PoF like it was yesterday. Hell lvls... it would take like 3 times the amount of exp to lvl that the lvl before it took. And if you died you lost 25% of your exp; but when you made it out of that lvl it really felt like you accomplished some thing big. Todays MMO's the only time it really feels like you have done something is when you hit max lvl. ( As for the lvling part of the game)

Some ppl say EQ punished you for playing. I see it as weeding out the weak... the ppl who still need more time to master their class... ppl who still dont know the limits of their toon. A good thing about that was hitting max lvl... you would be hard pressed to find someone who didnt know their toon inside and out.(unlike MMO's of today where is seems to be more of a chore trying to find someone who doesnt suck at their toon)

Running to a zone because our scouts found us a target and trying to form up 72 ppl to start clearing before the next raiding guild comes and takes it from you. ( there was no instance raid zones... you moved your butt or lost the target)

The first time my guild took down TRC... Xeg.... watching 35+ ppl shooting off their bows and watch all of the arrows fly over head towards the target.....it really gave a epic feel to the fight.

Remember running through the Forest that connected to WC at night.... and knowing if i die.... i could be here a long time trying to get my corpse back. It made you think twice about what you were about to do and put real fear in to the player. Or running for your life with 5+ mobs running after you and you hit that zone line and lived... you would breathe a sigh of relief that you made it.

"A Moss Snake kicks YOU for 5 points of damage!" 

"You have Die" 

"LOADING, PLEASE WAIT"

I think most ppl here just get annoyed when WoW players talk about WoW like it was the first MMO ever made. Or how its the best MMO ever made when this is the only MMO they have played.

Also I dont hate WoW, I play it here and there when i need a change up.

I don't either hate or like Wow, it is an ok game to me but nothing great.

The games I prefer:

Guildwars for it's fast paced PvP and really hard PvE (try it in hard mode if you don't believe me). I don't like it's instances though. It is BTW made by the first dev team from Wow.

EQ2 for it's dungeons and group play (Don't try this game if you plan to solo though, that sucks same goes with PvP).

I like AoC for it's graphics and animation.

I do like a few things from Wow also like it's massive content, polish and art.

So far there isn't a MMO that I can give a 10/10, even though I have my hopes up for Guildwars 2. And I doesn't really hate any game.

The only odd thing to me with wow is how it can have so much more players than everyone else, it isn't 10 times better than the rest. It is not a bad game off course but I played other games as fun, a lot of them. But I guess Blizzard knows it's fans and give them what they want.

I never played WoW and never will, but I don't hate it. I didn't like when wow stole away lots of my guildmates, but I have come to terms with that now.

I'd like to compare WoW to Microsoft in the sence that some people really don't like M$ and they prefer Linux and Mac instead, not becouse they are better, but becouse they are diffrent.

The bigguys will have to live with that.

PS. I dunno what the poster above have against mmorpg.com and how they can be blamed for anything, if it's the rating of WoW he is arngry about, then blame the users of this site.

Originally posted by Greyhooff

Warhammer has it.

Taking enemy lands and sieging their capital cities, making the opposing faction unable to even use their auction houses and merchants because their entire city is on fire.

And getting epics and rewards no one has ever seen yet.

But it's still just a casual newbie cookie-cutter implementation of PVP compared to EVE Online - and so we could continue.

Each game has it strengths and flaws, what WoW does better than any other game is being average on all accounts, it's not the worst in any field or the best, but without question is has the highest average.

But if you only want PVP - EVE Online is your game. If you only want easy PVP it's either WAR or WoW (yes it came with WoW in WOTLK). If you only want crafting/economy, EVE Online is your game - and the list goes on. EVE has it's flaws as well, the PVE is boring, small and almost non-exsistant, and the learning curve is insane compared to any other MMO ever made. EVE isn't a game you log in to if you have an hour or two to kill, it's not a game you just log out of when you are done etc.

I played EVE for a long time, but with RL family responsibilites there was no time to continue for me so I switched to WoW with a few friends from EVE and we've had fun ever since. But not challenging fun like in EVE more like the fun some people have when they get home from a long day at work and watch TV without really watching if you know what I mean.

That's what WoW is to me - a hobby to unwind at while playing.

I don't hate WoW; like many others I played it for a while, and just got tired of it.

What most people hate about WoW is that it isn't the game they like at that moment. Therefore, WoW is automatically (automagically?) stealing people from their game, making that game less successful than it could/should/would be.

WoW is accessible, both from a new player and base hardware standpoint. It has PvE and PvP content. It has also had the opportunity to grow, expand, and be re-worked over several years, utilizing an extensive financial bankroll from its large playerbase.

Personally, I hate the mechanics of most of WoW's classes; otherwise, I would probably be playing to this day.

Not everyone wants consequence in their games, especially those of the more "casual" persuasion.

My ultimate game was DAOC - robust settings/lore, excellent PvE experience, and the best large scale PvP I've enjoyed in any game to date. IT's too bad Mythic made WAR instead of DAOC 2.

To each their own....

 I have played MMOs for about 7 years now. Everquest, Lineage 2, EVE, Everquest 2, Vanguard, Lotro, COH and COV and ive enjoyed them all. All great games in my opinion. Started playing WoW november 2007 and havent looked back. To me WoW is the perfect mix of all the previous mmos ive played.

I think the PvP in L2 and EvE are better than WoWs pvp though,  the EQ2 quests lines and crafting are better than WoWs, and Lotros lore i also think is better than WoWs. But the total package I get from WoW is better for me than all those other games ive played. Yes, EQ is harder ofc, but to me WoW is more fun and to me thats what it all comes down to. FUN  So I guess im not a hardcore mmo fan then. Oh well, who cares.

I started on mmorpgs  with ultima online. I probably would like depth, immersion, complex game play but it all boils down to this: I was on my early 20's or so back then, I am now 34. familiar, professional and academic responsabilities don't allow me to go back to UO/EQ kind of games.

on a side note as a veteran SWG player from the early days, I have to ask what "real pvp with consequences" brings? Now, really.... I remember people fighting in shorts and t shirts  to not have decay from death and  jedis hidding in houses .  

what is the point of adding consequences to pvp when people die left and right in games like wow or warhammer. it is not like hard to gank someone, or outnumber over a spawn point so  the other guy doesnt have a chance. 

Eve is a little different on that aspect, I agree - but space mmorpg's are not kind of thing.

You want to know what people like?  Complaining.  Yep, that's what they like.  No matter what there will always be people that are not happy with what is currently available.  Either because they've tried it and enjoyed it but are ready for something new or they never liked it to begin with.

There's an old saying that you can't please all the people all the time.  The best you can hope for is to please some of the people some of the time...the rest are going to complain.  Nothing anyone can do about that, not even Blizzard.

 Dark Age of Camelot

Ultima Online

Vanguard

Darkfall