Complexity in an MMO keeps things interesting.  It keeps your attention Long-term. 

When Star Wars Galaxies "dumbed down" the character complexity and development, it became an 'arcade feel' which kills any desire to develop the character and play the game long term.

Funcom should of learned from Anarchy Online. It had implants, and skills and alot of stuff to do when you level up.  Instead they went a different way with AoC and they are having problems with long term subscribers.

I just dont want to see every level 10 Jedi the exact same.  I guess thats my point.

agree or no?

I think it's a fine balance between a good amount of complexity and OVERcomplexity which turns off 'casual' gamers.  The trick in my opinion is designing the game in a way which is very user friendly and thus making complex character development more accessable to casual gamers.

Generally though I have to agree, the more options the better.  Especially in an RPG... and ESPECIALLY in an MMORPG.

yes!

i couldn't agree more. not only does diversity and complexity in character development more interesting, but it also adds more fun elements to PvE and PvP. WoW was so boring at end game cause it was incredibly cookie cutter.

and don't even give me that BS about balance. balance didn't exist in PvP in wow either unless you were terrible and played rock and could only beat scissors.

I also agree completely with this as i do like to have a say in the way my character develops and the ability to tailor to suit my gamestyle and needs, but since current trend in mmo's is to require you to think as little as possible complex is not a word being used much

worst game i've come across for this is lotro which has pretty much zero customisation

best is anarchy which i put new chars in just to play with the amount of choices it has

This is why I wish the game were using the Wizards of the Coast D20 system where there are so many ways to customize your character but all the boring calculations and die rolling would be done 'under the hood' just like in the KOTOR games.

I know they want to keep it simple enough to appeal to 'casual gamers' but I hope they don't oversimplify the game because usually, the simpler you make a game the more you sacrafice.

Originally posted by DeaconX

I think it's a fine balance between a good amount of complexity and OVERcomplexity which turns off 'casual' gamers.  The trick in my opinion is designing the game in a way which is very user friendly and thus making complex character development more accessable to casual gamers.

Generally though I have to agree, the more options the better.  Especially in an RPG... and ESPECIALLY in an MMORPG.

Complex is a concept. 

You can have simple and complex. Ever heard of easy to learn, hard to master?

The famous word, which nobody ever used in a mmo . Laughable isn't it, yet it would maintain the hardcore but still satisfy the casual style.  Age of conan, warhammer online, World of warcraft, have simplicity but no complexity. I mean with this, it has a basic but after that, it stops.

I think the OP wants overcomplexity aka the hard to learn, hard to master concept which is yes hardcore LIKE EVE!

And WOW , well..... what can you say. There is a basic , a bit of extra but that's it. It's still flawed in my opinion. It needs that grindfest gear grind  ( carrot on the stick) to keep entertain the majority of players. ( at endgame) because character progression and customization lacks and is a concept that i would say , is still flawed in WOW. Ever guesed why WOW had allot of gear grind? Well, in this post, it makes it clear. Lack of easy to learn, hard to master concept!  EQ the original had that opposite, also bad. You couldn't catch up easy if you weren't hardcore.  It's the same story folks.

AOC and WAR take it to the extreme. The word dumbed down many people said. Instead of making a better WOW, they create a worser WOW and that is the reason they fail.  There character progression is easy to learn but fast finished. Very lacking and very static. No RP progression/ stats progression is also extremely limited.

You see my point. I doubt the old republic will do this, probably another flawed concept because either they do it to hardcore or to casual ( E-z mode) . Probably in the near feature or soon that we will see probably from smaller/medium sized companies new formulas and hopefully they succeed, to show this concept.

You need easy to learn , hard to master. Complexity and simple! 

Originally posted by shadenis

Originally posted by DeaconX

I think it's a fine balance between a good amount of complexity and OVERcomplexity which turns off 'casual' gamers.  The trick in my opinion is designing the game in a way which is very user friendly and thus making complex character development more accessable to casual gamers.

Generally though I have to agree, the more options the better.  Especially in an RPG... and ESPECIALLY in an MMORPG.

 

 

 

Complex is a concept. 

You can have simple and complex. Ever heard of easy to learn, hard to master?

The famous word, which nobody ever used in a mmo . Laughable isn't it, yet it would maintain the hardcore but still satisfy the casual style.  Age of conan, warhammer online, World of warcraft, have simplicity but no complexity. I mean with this, it has a basic but after that, it stops.

I think the OP wants overcomplexity aka the hard to learn, hard to master concept which is yes hardcore LIKE EVE!

And WOW , well..... what can you say. There is a basic , a bit of extra but that's it. It's still flawed in my opinion. It needs that grindfest gear grind  ( carrot on the stick) to keep entertain the majority of players. ( at endgame) because character progression and customization lacks and is a concept that i would say , is still flawed in WOW. Ever guesed why WOW had allot of gear grind? Well, in this post, it makes it clear. Lack of easy to learn, hard to master concept!  EQ the original had that opposite, also bad. You couldn't catch up easy if you weren't hardcore.  It's the same story folks.

 

AOC and WAR take it to the extreme. The word dumbed down many people said. Instead of making a better WOW, they create a worser WOW and that is the reason they fail.  There character progression is easy to learn but fast finished. Very lacking and very static. No RP progression/ stats progression is also extremely limited.

 

 

 

You see my point. I doubt the old republic will do this, probably another flawed concept because either they do it to hardcore or to casual ( E-z mode) . Probably in the near feature or soon that we will see probably from smaller/medium sized companies new formulas and hopefully they succeed, to show this concept.

 

You need easy to learn , hard to master. Complexity and simple! 

great observation.

I have yet to play a game where character customization was too complex. And I've played 95% of the AAA titles since Ultima Online. My personal belief is that if having lots of choice/options to progress your character's skills is too much for a gamer, get the game after its been out 6 months and all the spoiler sites have templates made and walkthroughs for the content.

I agree 100%.  I'm sure everyone else does too, well except for the 14 year olds that come from WoW of course.  I really hope they allow a great deal of customizatin, however, I don't believe that is going to be the case.  The path they seem to be taking is a very guided path where the player doesn't have much manipulation in skills and character development.  Though this is still in early stages so they have a lot of time to sway this subject from the dark side:)

Just so you guys don't get overhyped, consider this:

1 lucasarts

2 bioware's latest

3 casual gaming at all time high

4 profit to be made

>> conclusion? This game will be dumbed down. Sure, tell me I don't know anything about it, but I KNOW very much about the industry. If you think this will be complex, you are in denial.

Of all people, I would be numero uno fan of this game, if it were at least as complex as the kotor games.

Like saving throws, which is definetly a must, missing proper from all major MMOs out there. WoW spell resistences are a joke, if you were about to name that.

It doesn't need to be complex per-se for it to be content and options rich.

Originally posted by DeaconX

It doesn't need to be complex per-se for it to be content and options rich.

Combat is either complex, to become dynamic (think DnD), or stale, think WoW.

Middle ground is just a weak compromise.

Originally posted by random11

Originally posted by DeaconX

It doesn't need to be complex per-se for it to be content and options rich.

 

Combat is either complex, to become dynamic (think DnD), or stale, think WoW.

 

Middle ground is just a weak compromise.

The thread is about character development not combat ;)

When I said "complex" I wasnt thinking of "difficult".  I was thinking of having alot of variations, details, and choices on your character.  Having differentiation and being ablle to improve your character through some work, makes things more interesting and fun.