Now these are some nice posts Enkindu.

Downloading the trial now

I'm proving that I can start a new character and I can catch up easily.

Because im willing to focus on one thing at a time. My industrial char is 4 months old and making a mint, my new PvP char is already a very good tackler and well on her way to being a fantastic recon pilot. Theres nothing stopping you guys jumping in now and playing well... well, i guess there is one thing, and its doubt.

Originally posted by Xennith

I'm proving that I can start a new character and I can catch up easily.

Because im willing to focus on one thing at a time. My industrial char is 4 months old and making a mint, my new PvP char is already a very good tackler and well on her way to being a fantastic recon pilot. Theres nothing stopping you guys jumping in now and playing well... well, i guess there is one thing, and its doubt.

No, you can become competent at a small field, never catching up.  In that limited area you can be proficient, but you will lack many of the options that someone who has been around, and perhaps not even playing, will have.  You will never be as good as someone who has been here since the game started.  Period.  They will always have more options, will be able to do more things than you.

In a PvE centric game, that's not too bad.  Really only a minor quibble.  For me, in a PvP game, that's a deal breaker.

I won't argue that you can't get into the game and be ok at a small subset of the game in a somewhat reasonable amount of time.  However, PvP is about competition, and if there is never a way to level the playing field that's a turn off for me and others.

That doesn't mean it's a bad game.  I don't think it is, there's a lot they've done fantastically well.  It means that for many people, myself included, it's not something that I want to pursue.  I'll invest time in a game where I can reach the pinnacle of it and play with the "big boys" on an even keel.

 ((Edited to take out usually better than you.  Yes, there is a cap on each specific skill.  So in a particular skill you can catch up.  Point totally granted.))

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Originally posted by BigMango
Now these are some nice posts Enkindu.
Downloading the trial now
 

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Originally posted by bstripp

You will never be as good as someone who has been here since the game started.  Period.  They will always have more options, will be able to do more things than you.

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however an older character can still only ever fly one ship at a time. If they are pew pewwing then they are only in the ship they are in.

This actually narrows down their options considerably as well as the skill points that are in play.

You also seem to say that a PvP game is only one vs one on an even playing field. Which doesn't really work when there is territorial warfare.

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Originally posted by bstripp 
No, you can become competent at a small field, never catching up.  In that limited area you can be proficient, but you will lack many of the options that someone who has been around, and perhaps not even playing, will have.  You will never be as good as someone who has been here since the game started.  Period.

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Wrong. You can only fly one ship at a time. period.

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They will always have more options

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In a PvE centric game, that's not too bad.  Really only a minor quibble.  For me, in a PvP game, that's a deal breaker.

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im getting the impression that you're scared to try it, why else would you be forum warrioring about a game you dont want to play?

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if there is never a way to level the playing field that's a turn off for me and others.

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there really is, my alt im training will be able to kill lots of stuff by chosing ships and fittings carefully, and a bit of skillful flying...

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That doesn't mean it's a bad game.  I don't think it is, there's a lot they've done fantastically well.  It means that for many people, myself included, it's not something that I want to pursue.  I'll invest time in a game where I can reach the pinnacle of it and play with the "big boys" on an even keel.

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Im doing it now, why cant you?

Well, then Bstripp, I guess you can never play at any MMO PvP game.  You'll never be able to catch up to the long time players in any of these games according to your definition of catching up, so, it is obvious that these games are not for you.

Simply put though, for those willing to put in a little effort, EVE offers more to low SP players in terms of PvP than any other game I am aware of.

Originally posted by Xennith

 

Im doing it now, why cant you?

You're not.  What ship are you flying?  Tell me the role you are going to have.  What are you going to do when you need to shift that role?  What capital ship are you ready to fly?

Look, I'm not trying to troll or board warrior. However, unlike every other MMO on the market that I can think of, they all have caps of some sort. Big hard, you shall not progress beyond this point kind of caps. In Wow (which I really can't stand) it's levels and gear. In CoH it's levels and enhancements, In Shadowbane it's levels and runes.

The point is, I can get to a level playing field with any toon in any game within a few months. I have the same capabilities, can do the same actions, can manage the same resources. If I work hard at it, the rate that I catch up to them is determined by me and the effort I put forward. My target isn't an every moving range, but a statically capped one.

Skills are time limited. Options in the game then become time limited. One of the posters says that he's a good takler. Great, now what if you're in a small corp and need to be a jammer or a damage dealer? You likely can't switch easily or be competant in the role that is needed at that moment. What happens when the war is over? Can you do the industry that's needed? Can you mine or whatever the corp needs you to do?

Consider the uproar about the change to Ghost Training. If skill points didn't matter all that much, then why so much fuss over loosing a few months of training?

So from my opinion, and certainly from the mouths of long time players... skill points do matter. Enough that there was a an outcry of, "I won't play if I can't Ghost Train". Or, why should I keep X number of accounts.

In the end.  I don't like the mechanic.  It's artifical and limiting.  If they had a cap at one year or two years, then I'd be all over it.  At least there'd be some point that I could be on even footing with the people I'm playing with.  Love the idea of time based training, hate the implementation of making it open ended.  Unfortunately, to me, that's a big enough issue that I don't play it.

Eve is a fine game.  I've said that many times, so people telling me I'm a troll have an odd notion of it.

Originally posted by Eschiava

Well, then Bstripp, I guess you can never play at any MMO PvP game.  You'll never be able to catch up to the long time players in any of these games according to your definition of catching up, so, it is obvious that these games are not for you.

Simply put though, for those willing to put in a little effort, EVE offers more to low SP players in terms of PvP than any other game I am aware of. 

How is this so?  Let's run through some games:

Guild Wars: Serriously easy to hit 20. Heck you can buy the skills you need to PvP. Here's a game that totally parallels Eve.  People argued for a long time that access to the skills was needed for PvP balance.  Why?  You didn't have the flexibility to make a team build unless you had access to all of the skills.  The company realized this to be true, in a PvP centric game and now you can buy unlocked versions of the game as well as them making it much easier to get the skills you needed.

WoW: What is the level cap? 80?  I think there are posts of people who managed 1-80 in a few months.  Then some end raiding or PvP for gear and you are an identical twin to anyone out there.  I can craft as good as you, fight as good as you, auction as good.

City of Heroes: Takes you all of a month of hard playing if you know what you are doing to cap level.  Then 2-5 months to get your build squared and you are a clone of every other hero out there.

Pirates of the Burning Sea: Level caped.  Took me one month to hit the cap.  Would take another month or so to sail in the top end gear.

Shadowbane: If you are PL'ed about a month.  Gear is really not dependant.  You have to fight for runes, but most are fairly available.  Say three months to be maxed out.

AC1, AC2: Level capped.  Can't remember how long it took me, but I cetainly could max out a toon there.

Warhammer Online, Age of Conan, Everquest, Camelot, go doen the line.  They all have caps and it's not that hard to reach them.  Eventually you catch up with the guy that was a Beta player and it becomes fair.

Really, this isn't a hard concept to understand.  An open system that is time limited guarantees that you can never have the capabilities of another player unless you started at the same time.  You can be close... but not equal.  In a PvP setting, to me, that's just a bad mechanic.

now, those games wth level caps, how long do you play them after capping?

I have been playing eve for over 3 years, and i have played many different styles of play. Not only does the open training allow you keep going with training, something more to look towards, it also lets me play a different game.

You see it as something that the versatility is unattainable, OK, that's fine, just don't say you can't compete in PvP. you can.

We have told you that skills cap out, that the capped skills of an older character can only be the ones associated with the ship they are flying. Then there is the fact that ships are under a scissors/paper/rock arrangement, every ship in the game has a weakness, exploit it. In fact, with tactics and a plan, every ship can be taken out by a lower skill point requirement ship.

You're right, it's not hard to understand, not for me, anyway.

In the games you mention you state yourself that it will take (in most cases) several months of "hard playing" in order to compete in PvP.  That's fine if you have no life and can play 40-60 per week.

On the other hand, I am married and have a demanding career and little time to devote to games.  In 2 years of WoW I never had a character break level 40 and was quite bored for most of the time I played.

In EVE though, I was able to participate in PvP after a few weeks of play and have a blast every time I log in.  Other players have entered PvP within a couple of days of starting.

In the other games you mention grinding is a simple fact if you ever want to get anywhere.  In EVE, you only grind if you want to, your progress is not dependent on grinding though.

Finally, In every game you mention, being at or near the pinacle (your self proclaimed goal) is a necessity if you intend to participate seriously in PvP.  In EVE, it is a meaningless goal, since anyone who decides to can participate in PvP from a very young age.

I can understand how those who have not yet grasped the EVE mindset might think that being equal to the 2003 players is needful, but if you look at any of the EVE killboards you will find pretty young players participating in (and winning, of course) both gang and solo PvP. 

You're right about one thing, I will never have the SP of a 2003 player, but what you fail to understand is, I don't need to, and neither do you.

Sorry for the double post, but, that's a really good point Nurgles, about the rock/paper/scissors.

I am able to fly frigates, cruisers, and battlecruisers.  I don't know about you, but I have a lot more fun flying my frigate and taking out cruisers or my cruiser and taking on battlecruisers than with nything else. 

In EVE, fighting a higher ship class is easy if you know your opponent as well as your own capabilities and limitations. 

I wonder how successful a PvPer in WoW will be if he has lower tier PvP gear than his opponent?  Get many wins that way?

All good points.  As I've said, in a good game. 

However, I know the uproar that was caused on the Ghost Training issue.  If these points were not that critical, then why are people threatening to quit if they don't have it?

As for playing level caped games?  I played SB from start to shortly after Ubi dropped it.  I've played CoH for close to three years.  Guild Wars for three-ish, on and off.  Others haven't held my interest as much and I dropped them.

I would say that continuing in Eve has more to do with the universe, the sandbox nature, the open ended PvP, and strong corp identities than it does because of the skill system.  I could be wrong, but that's my guess.

I love a lot of aspects of the skill system.  I think it does a lot of good and is a fresh idea in a stale genra.  However, for me it's an equality thing that I can't and likely won't get over.

Yes, I agree that you can close to as effective as an older player since they are capped to their build.  However, the game isn't played in isolation which no one addresses when they talk about this issue. 

If they ever change to X capped skill points and then time to retrain if you want too, then I'll likely sign up.  Until then, this is just something that turns me away each time I try the game.

I'll bow out now.  I really shouldn't be here as I don't want to clog your board with stuff that I don't like about the game you play.  Enjoy it and I hope the expansions that are coming out add everything they promise.

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Originally posted by bstripp
All good points.  As I've said, in a good game. 
However, I know the uproar that was caused on the Ghost Training issue.  If these points were not that critical, then why are people threatening to quit if they don't have it?

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this was a squeeky wheel issue. no-one who liked (or didn't mind) the cancelling of ghost traing has an interest in posting about it. only the bitter. It was an issue that ghost training was a great way to make an established alt. These established alts are very very good at farming isk. I really like the change. There was always harsh penalties about training, you can only do it for one character per account, that you must log into the game to change a skill, no skill queuing ability.

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Originally posted by bstripp
As for playing level caped games?  I played SB from start to shortly after Ubi dropped it.  I've played CoH for close to three years.  Guild Wars for three-ish, on and off.  Others haven't held my interest as much and I dropped them.

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Cool, it seems you know what you like, and it does sound like eve isn't for you.

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Originally posted by bstripp
I would say that continuing in Eve has more to do with the universe, the sandbox nature, the open ended PvP, and strong corp identities than it does because of the skill system.  I could be wrong, but that's my guess.

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I don't disagree here at all, the skill system is such a minor of why i like the game. But then i also do like the skill system because i know i can never cap out, and i don't have to grind for a change in gameplay style.

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Originally posted by bstripp
I love a lot of aspects of the skill system.  I think it does a lot of good and is a fresh idea in a stale genra.  However, for me it's an equality thing that I can't and likely won't get over.

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Again, i am never going to be equal to some college kid dropping class to grind, i have a job. However, i have equal opportunity to pew pew for fun.

It is all well and good for veterans and those that just "enjoy the scenery" (ie., traders, crafters and ppl that just go "wow" to all the excitement) to say "don't listen to the naysayers", but the bottom line is that if you are new and want to be in player combat you can expect to get assraped for quite a while if you attempt PvP. Quite a while, as in, 6 months or more. If spending lots of time to earn ISK only to lose it in ten seconds appeals to you, go for it. Otherwise, stay out of it.

The OP is obviously a corporate type. Making money, running a corp, "crafting", etc. His SP investment in combat tells you so. Even at that, he has the resources to rip a new player apart if he so chose. And, as they say, many people "so choose".

Skill points and money will easily increase your damage by an order of magnitude. Not to mention "debuff" tactics.

New player be warned.

Originally posted by bstripp

Originally posted by Xennith

 

Im doing it now, why cant you?

 If they had a cap at one year or two years, then I'd be all over it.  At least there'd be some point that I could be on even footing with the people I'm playing with. 

Bingo. Otherwise, it's like joining a marathon halfway through.

Originally posted by WizardBlack

Originally posted by bstripp

Originally posted by Xennith

 

Im doing it now, why cant you?

 If they had a cap at one year or two years, then I'd be all over it.  At least there'd be some point that I could be on even footing with the people I'm playing with. 

Bingo. Otherwise, it's like joining a marathon halfway through.

That's od but could you explain how it works when people manage to beat a former world record without being at the same race at that same time?

You are saying that there is only one race. Ok.

But still if you run your marathon today and I do it tomorrow, and I do it in shorter time.
Are you or are I are the better marathon runner?

What if you are starting you marathon halfway through but they are timing the race, and you'll be the winner because you ran it in shorter time then everyone else but you finished it after the others.

There is more into it then that... People have stated it over and over. Ok you wont be that guy with the most collected SP but that only matters that far. You won't ever be able to equip or run a ship with everyone thing you can muster at one and the same time.

Originally posted by WizardBlack

It is all well and good for veterans and those that just "enjoy the scenery" (ie., traders, crafters and ppl that just go "wow" to all the excitement) to say "don't listen to the naysayers", but the bottom line is that if you are new and want to be in player combat you can expect to get assraped for quite a while if you attempt PvP. Quite a while, as in, 6 months or more. If spending lots of time to earn ISK only to lose it in ten seconds appeals to you, go for it. Otherwise, stay out of it.

The OP is obviously a corporate type. Making money, running a corp, "crafting", etc. His SP investment in combat tells you so. Even at that, he has the resources to rip a new player apart if he so chose. And, as they say, many people "so choose".

Skill points and money will easily increase your damage by an order of magnitude. Not to mention "debuff" tactics.

New player be warned.

what an unmitigated pile of bullshit from a failure. as ive pointed out, im starting a new character, is it going to be assraped? no. know why? because im a good player, certainly better than you anyhow.

what the hell are you on about skills will increase your damage an order of magnitude and "debuff" people? you think that a newb and a vet flying the same ship have a 1000% dps difference? try 30%. get out of your WoW mindset, actually on second thoughts, dont. stay in wow because EVE is serious business.

look at it this way, my new characters are doing well, my lowskill trader/industrialist is raking in the cash, is it because of skill points or my skill? is this skillpoints arguement a cop out excuse for people who are simply bad at EVE? the majority of eve players (regardless of when they joined) say yes.

Originally posted by Xennith

Originally posted by WizardBlack

It is all well and good for veterans and those that just "enjoy the scenery" (ie., traders, crafters and ppl that just go "wow" to all the excitement) to say "don't listen to the naysayers", but the bottom line is that if you are new and want to be in player combat you can expect to get assraped for quite a while if you attempt PvP. Quite a while, as in, 6 months or more. If spending lots of time to earn ISK only to lose it in ten seconds appeals to you, go for it. Otherwise, stay out of it.

The OP is obviously a corporate type. Making money, running a corp, "crafting", etc. His SP investment in combat tells you so. Even at that, he has the resources to rip a new player apart if he so chose. And, as they say, many people "so choose".

Skill points and money will easily increase your damage by an order of magnitude. Not to mention "debuff" tactics.

New player be warned.

what an unmitigated pile of bullshit from a failure. as ive pointed out, im starting a new character, is it going to be assraped? no. know why? because im a good player, certainly better than you anyhow.

what the hell are you on about skills will increase your damage an order of magnitude and "debuff" people? you think that a newb and a vet flying the same ship have a 1000% dps difference? try 30%. get out of your WoW mindset, actually on second thoughts, dont. stay in wow because EVE is serious business.

look at it this way, my new characters are doing well, my lowskill trader/industrialist is raking in the cash, is it because of skill points or my skill? is this skillpoints arguement a cop out excuse for people who are simply bad at EVE? the majority of eve players (regardless of when they joined) say yes.

Yeah, the math is one thing; effective DPS is quite another. I don't play WoW. You don't know anything about me. And, BTW, I specifically said for those that are playing PvP; not industry/trade. I've done all that and made a mint at it, too. Starting with very little SP in it. Anyone can make good money in trade with the ability to fly an indy ship (ie., a day's worth of training, or so). But if you wanna go PvP (in other words; lowsec or zero space) you will indeed get podded really quick. Don't fool yourself.

I love Eve; just don't have time to play right now. Don't presume to know me, my game experience or my skills in eve. I am simply warning the PvP-type that jumps into Eve expecting to get into action. You know the type I am talking about.

An experience player with 4/5 or 5/5 in their ship of choice (T2) with T2 weaponry and ammo and 4/5 or 5/5 in peripheral skills will never get hit by a newbie if they are good. If they do, they are probably running a proper tank config (speed, active, passive) and will hardly get a scratch before they pop the newb.

So, I guess the person (a new player) who posted on EVE-O's Crime and Punishment a few months ago about how he entered low-sec the first time with a 3 day old character and and gave a link to his KB and a winning percentage was making it all up?  Lying?

This same person has been in EVE a few months now and is part of a prestigious low-sec pirate outfit, one that makes you prove yourself before they will let you in.  I guess he completely pulled the wool over their eyes, becase, according to the nay-sayers here he couldn't possibly have succeeded  without being at least a year or two into the game.

EVE is all about attitude and mindset.  The person I am speaking of has the right attitude, the right mindset, and has succeeded quite well. 

I guess those who are EVE failures just find it necessary to try to steer others away from a great game.  If you've got what it takes, that is. 

Originally posted by WizardBlack

 

Yeah, the math is one thing; effective DPS is quite another. I don't play WoW. You don't know anything about me. And, BTW, I specifically said for those that are playing PvP; not industry/trade. I've done all that and made a mint at it, too. Starting with very little SP in it. Anyone can make good money in trade with the ability to fly an indy ship (ie., a day's worth of training, or so). But if you wanna go PvP (in other words; lowsec or zero space) you will indeed get podded really quick. Don't fool yourself.

Oh, you won't be podded one, not twice, you will get podded alot... Don't fool yourself into believeing that you will muster this game from day one. You won't be the king of the hill from day one. Why should one be.

Mention one game where you will be king of the hill from day one.

OMG I have played this game for 10 days and I still don't own everyone...

OMG I have played this game for 36 days and I still getting podded...

What game will that not be true in? Mention one game.

A newb is a newb is a newb. Doesn't matter if he bougth a 60M SP character or have 800k one.

I love Eve; just don't have time to play right now. Don't presume to know me, my game experience or my skills in eve. I am simply warning the PvP-type that jumps into Eve expecting to get into action. You know the type I am talking about.

An experience player with 4/5 or 5/5 in their ship of choice (T2) with T2 weaponry and ammo and 4/5 or 5/5 in peripheral skills will never get hit by a newbie if they are good.

A veteran player should be able to put up a good fight against the person who knows EVE and have played EVE the longest time of them all.

That day the newbie goes away from being a noob is not when his skillpoints goes over a certain treshold. It is the day when he knows (amongst other things) to pick his battles, the day he know that simply put what the .... to do.

That day the player quite shurely will put up a good fight to your veteran player.

If they do, they are probably running a proper tank config (speed, active, passive) and will hardly get a scratch before they pop the newb.

What is a newb?

 To make a comparison with the all famous WoW. But I think it could be alot of the other games out there aswell.

When I played, over 1½ year ago, or rather when I started to play 3 years ago. There was no chance for me to join those über raiding guild. To be able to do that I would not only need to be lvl60, I would have to have decent gear. Decent gear that after awhile was not only full Tier1 set but also (close to complete) Tier2 set.

That was not 10 days of leveling. Yeah, shure, I could go and buy Tier pieces from these guilds raiding to help them fund their raiding. But how would I come up with the 150G/piece? Endless grinding, or something. I mean it did not take me 11 days to make that, I would dare to say it would have taken me months of playing until I would be able to have this.

At this point I would be on par with the rest of the veterans... I would know the game as good as they did?
I'm not so shure about that. But ok at some point I would have catched up, as one say. But to be at highest level would not cut it.

So let's get back to EVE. No I will never ever catch up to a player that have played the game for even one month longer then me unless he quits the game, if one stares blindly to the pool of SP. But the difference beetween a 1 month player and a 2 months player is nothing. Also the difference beetween a 5-10M SP character and a 60M one is not necesserly that huge either.

In my opinion you start to catch up the day you have reached around 2M SP... And you can be a valuable asset already after a few weeks worth of training. But not from day1 one I think it is wrong to even suggest or want that.

Most importently learn the game.

Originally posted by Orphes

Originally posted by WizardBlack

 

Yeah, the math is one thing; effective DPS is quite another. I don't play WoW. You don't know anything about me. And, BTW, I specifically said for those that are playing PvP; not industry/trade. I've done all that and made a mint at it, too. Starting with very little SP in it. Anyone can make good money in trade with the ability to fly an indy ship (ie., a day's worth of training, or so). But if you wanna go PvP (in other words; lowsec or zero space) you will indeed get podded really quick. Don't fool yourself.

Oh, you won't be podded one, not twice, you will get podded alot... Don't fool yourself into believeing that you will muster this game from day one. You won't be the king of the hill from day one. Why should one be.

Mention one game where you will be king of the hill from day one.

OMG I have played this game for 10 days and I still don't own everyone...

OMG I have played this game for 36 days and I still getting podded...

What game will that not be true in? Mention one game.

A newb is a newb is a newb. Doesn't matter if he bougth a 60M SP character or have 800k one.

I love Eve; just don't have time to play right now. Don't presume to know me, my game experience or my skills in eve. I am simply warning the PvP-type that jumps into Eve expecting to get into action. You know the type I am talking about.

An experience player with 4/5 or 5/5 in their ship of choice (T2) with T2 weaponry and ammo and 4/5 or 5/5 in peripheral skills will never get hit by a newbie if they are good.

A veteran player should be able to put up a good fight against the person who knows EVE and have played EVE the longest time of them all.

That day the newbie goes away from being a noob is not when his skillpoints goes over a certain treshold. It is the day when he knows (amongst other things) to pick his battles, the day he know that simply put what the .... to do.

That day the player quite shurely will put up a good fight to your veteran player.

If they do, they are probably running a proper tank config (speed, active, passive) and will hardly get a scratch before they pop the newb.

What is a newb?

 To make a comparison with the all famous WoW. But I think it could be alot of the other games out there aswell.

When I played, over 1½ year ago, or rather when I started to play 3 years ago. There was no chance for me to join those über raiding guild. To be able to do that I would not only need to be lvl60, I would have to have decent gear. Decent gear that after awhile was not only full Tier1 set but also (close to complete) Tier2 set.

That was not 10 days of leveling. Yeah, shure, I could go and buy Tier pieces from these guilds raiding to help them fund their raiding. But how would I come up with the 150G/piece? Endless grinding, or something. I mean it did not take me 11 days to make that, I would dare to say it would have taken me months of playing until I would be able to have this.

At this point I would be on par with the rest of the veterans... I would know the game as good as they did?
I'm not so shure about that. But ok at some point I would have catched up, as one say. But to be at highest level would not cut it.

So let's get back to EVE. No I will never ever catch up to a player that have played the game for even one month longer then me unless he quits the game, if one stares blindly to the pool of SP. But the difference beetween a 1 month player and a 2 months player is nothing. Also the difference beetween a 5-10M SP character and a 60M one is not necesserly that huge either.

In my opinion you start to catch up the day you have reached around 2M SP... And you can be a valuable asset already after a few weeks worth of training. But not from day1 one I think it is wrong to even suggest or want that.

Most importently learn the game.

Yeah, I know all the arguments. I've heard them all. I am simply warning new guys that don't necessarily want to wait to build 10M SP to be "pretty close" to vets or 5M SP to "be lucky sometimes with good tactics". Trust me, I don't have a thin skin. I was podded for my fair share and never got pissed, etc. Even when some of them were ridiculously one sided. I love Eve, as I said. (in fact if you don't leave my statements be, I'm gonna think about resubbing the damn thing).

You go figure how long it takes a raw 1M SP character to hit 10M SP if you all are so desperate to convince PvP newbs to come into the game. I am just trying to TEMPER new players who might not be expecting to have to wait a few months (at minimum) to be "close" or to avoid being the dispose-a-newb tackler. Most decent corps wouldn't bring you in until you have 5M SP or so; last I checked. Therefore, using your eve trainer calc tools. Take a raw recruit and figure how long to, say,  6M SP figuring 5/5 on T1 and 4/5 on T2 learning skills. I'd even let you leave charisma alone.

Originally posted by WizardBlack 

Yeah, I know all the arguments. I've heard them all. I am simply warning new guys that don't necessarily want to wait to build 10M SP to be "pretty close" to vets or 5M SP to "be lucky sometimes with good tactics". Trust me, I don't have a thin skin. I was podded for my fair share and never got pissed, etc. Even when some of them were ridiculously one sided. I love Eve, as I said. (in fact if you don't leave my statements be, I'm gonna think about resubbing the damn thing).

You go figure how long it takes a raw 1M SP character to hit 10M SP if you all are so desperate to convince PvP newbs to come into the game. I am just trying to TEMPER new players who might not be expecting to have to wait a few months (at minimum) to be "close" or to avoid being the dispose-a-newb tackler. Most decent corps wouldn't bring you in until you have 5M SP or so; last I checked. Therefore, using your eve trainer calc tools. Take a raw recruit and figure how long to, say,  6M SP figuring 5/5 on T1 and 4/5 on T2 learning skills. I'd even let you leave charisma alone.

I missed a magical I win module that you get at 5-6 million SP?  If so i feel cheated cause I don't have it. I've not found many people that enjoy EVE period when they have the howq long till I get to X SP mentality.  I've got several ECM pilots who can out jam most Falcon pilots in blackbirds beacuse they understand the proper way to Cycle thier jammers.

Everyone goes over the give a Newb 50 billion isk and all the SP in the world and he'll still jump a Deadspace fitted Nightmare into a 0.0 Gatecamp thats been there for hours and Extremely well known about lose his ship then dock at a station and grab his untanked Transport fitted Revelation to attack the well armed and prepared gatecamp again... with the same results. ( a Thanks for anyone who can find that article for me again I lost the link)

New players have a rough time starting only if the fail to ask for or listen to the advice from older players.  Once they start getting some of the actual game knowledge into them then they start being able to actually do well. That can be in as little as a few weeks to never,  end of discussion.

The player I referred to earlier started playing at the end of July.  Six weeks later he was accepted into a low-sec pirate corp that has as one of many requirements the requirement to document 5 solo PvP kills, including 2 kills of ships of a greater level than the one piloted.  e.g. killing a cruiser while flying a frigate,

I am pretty sure that when he joined this corp (six weeks after character creation) that he had a lot less than 10 million SP, in fact, he had a lot less than 5, to be sure.

So, it can be done, but don't expect this kind of success to be handed to you, it does take work.

LOL, I love the one-off examples and the oversimplification of my statements. Go ahead guys. Those that qualify themselves as mostly PvP-oriented (and not overly patient) have gotten the picture, I think.