Originally posted by SignusM

Originally posted by strategy

To counter the threads of some that think Wow is too easy: Since WotLK PvP gear is now rated: did you know it is the most difficult MMORPG in this field?

A PvP rating of 2200 means LESS than 1% of the players will ....ever see this gear on their avatars?

These new ratings assure the "elite" players they will feel elite. 

Carebear? When only 1% or less of the players will ever get this epic gear?

You seem to not have any semblance of a clue what carebear means. 

 

 

Also, nothing in WoW can be considered difficult, just time consuming. And hey, that was the one thing WoW had going for it, it was casual friendly, thats how it got its subs, but FU to them, just like they did a big FU who joined for the Warcraft lore. 

 

And lastly, my god no, EQ was 100X harder gear wise than this will ever be, as was the DAoC ToA expansion. 

LOL
 

Now I have proof all those Wow haters ARE blind? They can't even READ.

PVP Gear has a personal RATING system based on a ladder.

Get it? Less than 1% of the people or far less will have access to the HIGHEST PvP gear sets. You may play TEN THOUSAND YEARS and CAMP for a million others, you won't have the present HIGHEST gear sets in the game ever if you are NOT good enough.

That means you will need to do a combined effort in the worldPvP/Bg's/Arena's and ONLY the best of the best will ever get the present highest gear in the game for that moment.

In this respect the game is indeed BY FAR the most difficult MMORPG ever - gear wise to assemble. No use of playing it for 24/24 hours. Not good enough is simply NOT good enough.

Some servers will not even see the highest gear, because the calculations and personal rating systems ......are made per server cluster BATTLEGROUPS of 18 or more realms (servers).

So it beats the hell out of the botters and no lifers on EQ1 and everything beyon in MMORPG land
 

Hate makes you blind apparently :)

But indeed Wow (by its sheer system) can calculate just how good you are in PvP and distribute gear accordingly.

Everquest was only "harder" to get gear in, because of the artificial bottlenecks and time sinks put into the game.  There was nothing skill based that prevented most people from getting most items.

Just because Nagafen only spawned every several days didn't mean it was skill based challenge to kill him.  There was just a limited resource that people could get.  Once the artificial time barriers (spawn timers) were removed everyone and their grandmother had epic quest weapons. 

People need to stop confusing time sinks as difficulty.  What the original poster is saying about how arena pvp weapons is true.  It will be earned through player skill compared against other players skill as far as I can tell.  I don't agree with all of his points and I'm sure Blizzard will find a way to tone it down in some fashion so it doesn't turn into yet another high warlord grind.  Still it is more challenging than most things in MMOs.

Originally posted by Daffid011

Everquest was only "harder" to get gear in, because of the artificial bottlenecks and time sinks put into the game.  There was nothing skill based that prevented most people from getting most items.

 

Just because Nagafen only spawned every several days didn't mean it was skill based challenge to kill him.  There was just a limited resource that people could get.  Once the artificial time barriers (spawn timers) were removed everyone and their grandmother had epic quest weapons. 

 

People need to stop confusing time sinks as difficulty.  What the original poster is saying about how arena pvp weapons is true.  It will be earned through player skill compared against other players skill as far as I can tell.  I don't agree with all of his points and I'm sure Blizzard will find a way to tone it down in some fashion so it doesn't turn into yet another high warlord grind.  Still it is more challenging than most things in MMOs.

Nothing skill based? are you serious?. Complete heal cycling, with no pansy localized mods? Placement AOEs and an insane team effort, with most people on dial up, no voice either. You are going to say it took no skill? Craziest thing I ever heard.

EQ did have sinks, it also took a lot of skill and determination when it came to raiding. BOTH of these combined, made it difficult, but very damn rewarding.

Originally posted by Daffid011

Everquest was only "harder" to get gear in, because of the artificial bottlenecks and time sinks put into the game.  There was nothing skill based that prevented most people from getting most items.

 

Just because Nagafen only spawned every several days didn't mean it was skill based challenge to kill him.  There was just a limited resource that people could get.  Once the artificial time barriers (spawn timers) were removed everyone and their grandmother had epic quest weapons. 

 

People need to stop confusing time sinks as difficulty.  What the original poster is saying about how arena pvp weapons is true.  It will be earned through player skill compared against other players skill as far as I can tell.  I don't agree with all of his points and I'm sure Blizzard will find a way to tone it down in some fashion so it doesn't turn into yet another high warlord grind.  Still it is more challenging than most things in MMOs.

I would say that bottlenecking was more so in PoP, that expansion really weeded out the high end guilds from every other guild. Getting 72 ppl to act as one was not a easy task. TRC was not easy and did take skill from the whole raid with all that tank mezing going on with the mobs that could not be mezed by a chanter. All it took was one person messin up that could start a chain reaction of one mob getting free... and once that happens its pertty much over with. Nor was Xeg..even Ralloz could one shot your tank.
 

** Misses the healing chain**

"set heals at half a second intervals"

Originally posted by Chiram 

Nothing skill based? are you serious?. Complete heal cycling, with no pansy localized mods? Placement AOEs and an insane team effort, with most people on dial up, no voice either. You are going to say it took no skill? Craziest thing I ever heard.

 

EQ did have sinks, it also took a lot of skill and determination when it came to raiding. BOTH of these combined, made it difficult, but very damn rewarding.

Complete heal was one of the most over powered skills ever in a MMO.  Clerics casting complete heal in a timed rotation took almost any challenge out of an encounter. 

Almost every single encounter in the first few expansions consisted of the following strategy. 

Tank: position mob so it faces away from the raid.  Preferably blair witch style in a corner.  Clerics 1-4 each take turns casting complete heal evey 3-5 seconds [depending on the fight].  Shaman/Enchanter magic debuff and slow [prefer shaman slow].  Maybe a defensive warrior rotation if needed.  Everyone else pile on damage and heal raid as best possible. 

Sure plenty of aspects about EQ were hard and required skill, but that wasn't my point.  My point was that it wasn't some skill based game where people were denied content and only the top people COULD complete the content.  EQ was more restrictive due to very limited number of boss spawns, high gear requirements to advance and amount of time investment needed to do high end content.   Having 30-70 warm bodies online [the could mobilize fast] was more important to advancing in the games content than have 50 skillful people online at 7pm every night. 

While I am not in agreement with everything the original poster is claiming, he is right that the arena rating system is based on a players skill [cheating aside].  Simply pouring time into arenas won't win the best gear.  There is no boss encounter strategy to read that will result in winning.  I am far from a fan of WoWs arena system, but I'm sure for people who are into that kind of thing they enjoy it very much and this is something people will compete over.

I do agree that arena gear is difficult to get assuming you dont cheat or buy your way there which is possible.

Blizzard did kind of a switch and now PVE is the welfare epics and I admit I did not see that coming at all. I know I could not pull a 2250 rating regardless of how much I practiced. Yes I know certain classes are easier than others from month to month but to get that rating does take skill.

To me its not fun even though I am not the best but because there are teams that you just cant beat because of the system. I know some great players and they agree that yes you do need a certain spec and certain class to rise to the top which takes some of the skill out but for those that have that they still have to push the buttons and work together.

Hats off to those upper arena guys.

lol..WoW hard? What are you smoking? WoW is easymode deluxe. Obviously you never played some of the classic mmo's out there. Granted arena is quite competitive it's not hard. Get the right class and spec and 75% of the work is done, rest is down to patience, knowledge of your class and a little luck now and then. It's the same with PvP all over the place really. On the other hand, WoW's PvE is laughable easy and when you learn the scripted encounters its easymode to raid epics.

Anyway, this thread is a flamebait and should be reported and closed. The OP should be tempbanned aswell.

...and done.

Originally posted by slask777

lol..WoW hard? What are you smoking? WoW is easymode deluxe. Obviously you never played some of the classic mmo's out there. Granted arena is quite competitive it's not hard. Get the right class and spec and 75% of the work is done, rest is down to patience, knowledge of your class and a little luck now and then. It's the same with PvP all over the place really. On the other hand, WoW's PvE is laughable easy and when you learn the scripted encounters its easymode to raid epics.

Anyway, this thread is a flamebait and should be reported and closed. The OP should be tempbanned aswell.

...and done.

Although I appreciate your very veg and empty reply ,as I am at work and will read it anyway due to boredom but could you please suggest a game that requires more? I have played some of them and I cant think of any.

EVE- best ship/ most isk wins the fight no real incentive other than to pod kill someone for fun and take what loot they had but no real way to advance since there is no rank system other than bountys if ya count that.  If you killed 100 players in a row with out losing would ya get anything for it?

WAR- hang out around people that give renoun when you kill em then eventually you will max out with renoun.

AOC- sweet PVP XP only took 6 months to match the box and you still cant level but refer to WAR on how to increase it.

LOTRO- I will say this probably takes the longest I have ever seen to max out but its just a grind when you break it down.

Any other games I missed and no full loot free for all pvp is really not that hard as you can farm noobs but no real reason or proof that you are consistantly good.

Please dont talk about Darkfall as it is not released yet.

WOW- take your best players against other of the best players and win. If you lose you lose rating if you win you gain a rating. Win enough times without losing and you max out.

Yes, I got one, Anarchy Online Classic. Granted they didn't have this epeen title alot of the idiots I see who play WoW stroke with a passion, the grind and difficulty to get to endgame, gear up and find the proper implantset(spec builds really) was insane and changed quite often. The top build/class combination one day could be bottom the next day.

They lessened it quite a bit with Shadowlands (which took away from the cyberpunk atmosphere to create some shitty high-fantasy setting and made everyone ridicously rich due to ingots, which Funcom, in their infinte stupidity removed from the game a few years later, screwing the already screwed up economy even more), even more with Alien Invasion and Lost Eden is just a copycat from WoW's arenas and battlegrounds so lets just skip that one.

I laugh at what people call twinks in WoW too. BG twinks just require gold, nothing else. So you can run around one-shot people and you're impossible to kill for the regular player. Call that skill? I sure don't.

I don't hate WoW like alot of people around here do for some reason, but to read the fanboys spewing nonsense is downright ridiculous, allthough a little entertaining if only to laugh a little at their idiocity.

Also note that I said classis mmo's. Since when did Lotro/AoC and War become classic mmo's?

Edit:People also say that the grind in WoW is shit, calling a 6 month grind insane. I spent bloody years getting my shitty engineer in AO to endgame and that was just the leveling. I never got to the top in the towerbattles that used to rage on in AO as they had some real cuttroath players at the top. The forumdrama and hate that sometimes spawned in the forums where quite the sight at the time. Todays mmoplayer is, to be blunt, a spoiled brat expecting to be handheld and guided towards whatever shiny carrot the devs dangle at the end but that's what you get when you open up the genre to the mainstream.

Originally posted by jblah

Although I appreciate your very veg and empty reply ,as I am at work and will read it anyway due to boredom but could you please suggest a game that requires more? I have played some of them and I cant think of any.

EVE- best ship/ most isk wins the fight no real incentive other than to pod kill someone for fun and take what loot they had but no real way to advance since there is no rank system other than bountys if ya count that.  If you killed 100 players in a row with out losing would ya get anything for it?

WAR- hang out around people that give renoun when you kill em then eventually you will max out with renoun.

AOC- sweet PVP XP only took 6 months to match the box and you still cant level but refer to WAR on how to increase it.

LOTRO- I will say this probably takes the longest I have ever seen to max out but its just a grind when you break it down.

Any other games I missed and no full loot free for all pvp is really not that hard as you can farm noobs but no real reason or proof that you are consistantly good.

Please dont talk about Darkfall as it is not released yet.

WOW- take your best players against other of the best players and win. If you lose you lose rating if you win you gain a rating. Win enough times without losing and you max out.

 

Guildwars is far better than Wow when it comes to skill. In GW you only win a PvP battle if you are best, not because you have better gear. And the PvE is a lot harder, particulary in hard mode. GW have other issues but it is far more difficult than Wow.

That only 1% will have the best gear isnt really proven yet either.

Originally posted by slask777

Yes, I got one, Anarchy Online Classic. Granted they didn't have this epeen title alot of the idiots I see who play WoW stroke with a passion, the grind and difficulty to get to endgame, gear up and find the proper implantset(spec builds really) was insane and changed quite often. The top build/class combination one day could be bottom the next day.

They lessened it quite a bit with Shadowlands (which took away from the cyberpunk atmosphere to create some shitty high-fantasy setting), even more with Alien Invasion and Lost Eden is just a copycat from WoW's arenas and battlegrounds so lets just skip that one.

I laugh at what people call twinks in WoW too. BG twinks just require gold, nothing else. So you can run around one-shot people and is impossible to kill for the regular player. Call that skill? I sure don't.

I don't hate WoW like alot of people around here do for some reason, but to read the fanboys spewing nonsense is downright ridiculous, allthough a little entertaining if only to laugh a little at their idiocity.

Also note that I said classis mmo's. Since when did Lotro/AoC and War become classic mmo's?

Edit:People also say they have to grind in WoW is shit, calling a 6 month grind insane. I spent bloody years getting my shitty engineer in AO to endgame. Todays mmoplayer is, to be blunt, a spoiled brat expecting to be handheld and guided towards whatever shiny carrot the devs dangle at the end.

Anarchy online was difficult to properly make a character [translation: easy to screw a character up], but that doesn't mean the game was hard to actually play.  It was they typical tank, dps and healer model.  Sure it was hard to find specific equipment, but that is the same for most games and what keeps people pursuing goals.  That doesn't make the gameplay harder does it?

Requiring lengthy leveling times is not a difficult task either, it is just cumbersome. 

AO was hard on number crunching min/max, but the gameplay was about standard imho.  Lengthy leveling, but I don't think that requiring tons of experience makes up for actual challenging gameplay.

Originally posted by Daffid011

Originally posted by slask777

Yes, I got one, Anarchy Online Classic. Granted they didn't have this epeen title alot of the idiots I see who play WoW stroke with a passion, the grind and difficulty to get to endgame, gear up and find the proper implantset(spec builds really) was insane and changed quite often. The top build/class combination one day could be bottom the next day.

They lessened it quite a bit with Shadowlands (which took away from the cyberpunk atmosphere to create some shitty high-fantasy setting), even more with Alien Invasion and Lost Eden is just a copycat from WoW's arenas and battlegrounds so lets just skip that one.

I laugh at what people call twinks in WoW too. BG twinks just require gold, nothing else. So you can run around one-shot people and is impossible to kill for the regular player. Call that skill? I sure don't.

I don't hate WoW like alot of people around here do for some reason, but to read the fanboys spewing nonsense is downright ridiculous, allthough a little entertaining if only to laugh a little at their idiocity.

Also note that I said classis mmo's. Since when did Lotro/AoC and War become classic mmo's?

Edit:People also say they have to grind in WoW is shit, calling a 6 month grind insane. I spent bloody years getting my shitty engineer in AO to endgame. Todays mmoplayer is, to be blunt, a spoiled brat expecting to be handheld and guided towards whatever shiny carrot the devs dangle at the end.

Anarchy online was difficult to properly make a character [translation: easy to screw a character up], but that doesn't mean the game was hard to actually play.  It was they typical tank, dps and healer model.  Sure it was hard to find specific equipment, but that is the same for most games and what keeps people pursuing goals.  That doesn't make the gameplay harder does it?

Requiring lengthy leveling times is not a difficult task either, it is just cumbersome. 

AO was hard on number crunching min/max, but the gameplay was about standard imho.  Lengthy leveling, but I don't think that requiring tons of experience makes up for actual challenging gameplay.

Well, did you compete in Notum Wars aka Tower Battles? That was the hardest pvp I've ever done in any game. Granted lenghty leveling times doesn't equal hard game, it sure was a test on your patience. The other point with the proper build is what made AO so challening aswell. It was so damn easy to screw your character up, forcing you to reroll and do some research before you spent those ip-points. I liked that with the game. It weeded out the stupid. AO was a min/max'ers wet dream too, but sadly, the game is a complete joke today compared to what it used to be.

Just to give you a heads up... I've been playing MMOs since they came out and I've played more than I can remember. WoW is not the hardest game to get gear in. You should try playing Everquest, Anarchy Online, or Dark Age of Camelot. When you have to wait for 72 hours for a mob to spawn and you have to have your character sitting there in order to prevent someone else from claiming the camp, just to get an item you need for one part of the chain of quests for the gear you want, then you can complain.

Facts about WoW- In my experience WoW seems to be geared towards 12 year olds. It has all the things Tweeners love... collecting, repetition, violence, and cartoons. It's extremely simple to play... any wizard in a raid will tell you that. It's not overly hard to complete a chain of quests nor is it hard to get the items or faction needed... it just requires grinding.

If you want to see hard go play EQ2 or Vanguard... those games make WoW look like a walk in the park. The reason they're called Mature MMOs isn't because they have nudity, it's because they take patience and dedication. Quit complaining about WoW being so dificult and either move on to Hello Kitty Online, or buck up little bronco, because you're seriously deluded.

Originally posted by Daffid011

 

Sure plenty of aspects about EQ were hard and required skill, but that wasn't my point.  My point was that it wasn't some skill based game where people were denied content and only the top people COULD complete the content.  EQ was more restrictive due to very limited number of boss spawns, high gear requirements to advance and amount of time investment needed to do high end content.   Having 30-70 warm bodies online [the could mobilize fast] was more important to advancing in the games content than have 50 skillful people online at 7pm every night. 

 

While I am not in agreement with everything the original poster is claiming, he is right that the arena rating system is based on a players skill [cheating aside].  Simply pouring time into arenas won't win the best gear.  There is no boss encounter strategy to read that will result in winning.  I am far from a fan of WoWs arena system, but I'm sure for people who are into that kind of thing they enjoy it very much and this is something people will compete over.

 

 

I am glad at least SOME people read the posts of why I consider the PvP epic gear in Wow by FAR the best gear to get in ANY MMORPG these days. Tx for the readers....
 

Because it is rated and has a ladder system, only the very few of the very few will get to the best gear at present day Wow. Take the best 100 players in the world and let them have a competition: 50% of them will be UNDER 1500 :)))

Because the ladder system is based on server clusters of about 18 servers, these gear sets will only be available to a few dozen out of .... 180.000 subscribed players.

I think it is fair to say that each server has about 10.000 subscribed players (not concurrent players), so being the top out of 180.000players or more is something awesome (at a 2200 rating).

I am VERY proud of my 4x Brutal gladiotor gear sets and rival/duelist status on my characters and yes I am NOT a top gladiator, but I think this system is awesome and awards basically the best PvP people.

For those intrested the new Wow PvP sets and season will be out on Dec 14th. See you all there. And Lake wintergrasp gives even 1000 honor as a loser alone :)).

Originally posted by strategy

I am glad at least SOME people read the posts of why I consider the PvP epic gear in Wow by FAR the best gear to get in ANY MMORPG these days. Tx for the readers....
 

Because it is rated and has a ladder system, only the very few of the very few will get to the best gear at present day Wow. Take the best 100 players in the world and let them have a competition: 50% of them will be UNDER 1500 :)))

Because the ladder system is based on server clusters of about 18 servers, these gear sets will only be available to a few dozen out of .... 180.000 subscribed players.

I think it is fair to say that each server has about 10.000 subscribed players (not concurrent players), so being the top out of 180.000players or more is something awesome (at a 2200 rating).

I am VERY proud of my 4x Brutal gladiotor gear sets and rival/duelist status on my characters and yes I am NOT a top gladiator, but I think this system is awesome and awards basically the best PvP people.

For those intrested the new Wow PvP sets and season will be out on Dec 14th. See you all there. And Lake wintergrasp gives even 1000 honor as a loser alone :)).

 

Well, you do start with 1500 points in the arena. You do know what yes? Plus the arena system WoW got is shiteasy to exploit. These are the true welfare epics raiders complain about. You need absolutely no skill at all to go away with some free epics. You don't even need to fight. Also to be successful in the arena you need the right class combination. Why do you think so many play rogue/warrior in the arena? The balance is horrible. As with all the pvp in WoW, the arena is an afterthought aswell. Hastilly slapped together just to please the pvp fans.

Originally posted by Arcken

Originally posted by Martie

OH god, you've really done i now.  The amount of hatred there is towards wow on this forums, will lead to total anarchy in this thread.

For the record i agree.

I think getting EQ 2.0 epic was far harder than anything in WoW, ya ever have to get an entire raid force together for 1 quest piece of many to drop?

Back then you only got people to do it on your merit, because generally, no one got anything out of the raid but the person needing the epic part.

So I disagree that WoW is the most difficult mmorpg ever when it comes to gear.

I agree, its been farking months and im still working on getting my epic weapon, and the uberr class armor that drops can drop but also has the chance to drop any of the 24 some classes and nothing at all.

Originally posted by boognish75

Originally posted by Arcken

Originally posted by Martie

OH god, you've really done i now.  The amount of hatred there is towards wow on this forums, will lead to total anarchy in this thread.

For the record i agree.

I think getting EQ 2.0 epic was far harder than anything in WoW, ya ever have to get an entire raid force together for 1 quest piece of many to drop?

Back then you only got people to do it on your merit, because generally, no one got anything out of the raid but the person needing the epic part.

So I disagree that WoW is the most difficult mmorpg ever when it comes to gear.

 

I agree, its been farking months and im still working on getting my epic weapon, and the uberr class armor that drops can drop but also has the chance to drop any of the 24 some classes and nothing at all.

So has this EQ gear a personal needed rating based on a competitive ladder with 180.000 other players (18 realms coupled through one Battlegroup and individual rated ?)
 

No. this EQ gear is purely based on time consuming efforts, not on the quality of the play in PvP.

So Wow has the most difficult to obtain gear - ever - of any game. It's highest rated PvP gear is at 2200+ unreachable for 99.5% for its players and there is only ONE title for the best of those 180.000 playing.

So EQ2 fails. Even big. This gear in WotLK just doens't drop - ever - you have to EARN it. And only a handfull of a possible 180.000 players do get "it". Combined with the efforts they do in the other parts of world PvP,BG's and Arena.

Isn't that clear ??? NO drop; Not in a million years. Forget EQ, EQ2, that's noob gear compared to the highest PvP gear in Wow.

A LOT of WotLK players will be surprised that the non rated PvP gear will NO longer be epic :))

Every purple will be rated in WotLK as of Dec 15 th. :)). Expect a LOT of complaining.

Originally posted by strategy

Read my posts.

The difference between the highest PvP gear set and the lowest - no rating - set is to be ... 4%.

So that answers your question isn't it.

Just enough to keep the motivation high but not nearly big enough to interfere with skill.

What do you think Blizzard is? FunCom?

Keep living in a 4% dreamworld.  Luckily, a simple look at the base stats of any class and the available gear on an item database site will prove this is wrong.

Comparing savage and deadly glads for any set, it's not even close to 4% in terms of important stats.

Resilience: Typically 30% more on deadly than savage.

Weapon damage: Typically 30% higher on deadly than savage.  And yeah, weapon damage before AP adjustment is hugely important for some classes.  PvE weapons are not an option, either.  PvE weapons are tuned for a faster speed, so the weapon damage is still lower even though the DPS is comparable.  Plus you lose even more resi.

So yeah.  There will be a huge resi gap between high-rated players and those without a high rating.  There will also be a huge damage gap.  Attack power bonuses are anywhere from 30% to 50% higher on most pieces.

Did I mention HP?  Yeah, 10% more HP too.  Yes, that's after base HP and enchants are counted.  If you're looking purely at stamina, deadly glad's has about ~27% more stamina than savage glad's.

Sorry, it's not even close to a cosmetic difference.  If you're only slightly better than somebody in full deadly, and you're in savage, you will get destroyed.  Any remotely close match-up between somebody in deadly's and somebody in unrated gear will be decided by gear.  You would have to be massively better than somebody who outgears you like that to have any chance.

riginally posted by strategy

Take the best 100 players in the world and let them have a competition: 50% of them will be UNDER 1500 :)))

Wow.  You have 4/5 S4, and you don't even realize how the rating system works.  This is just completely false.

Hint: Arena is not a true ladder.  Your rating does not correspond to your percentile standing.  Titles do.  Ratings do not.

Just ignore this guy from now on, whenever he talks about arena.  Probably carried.

And yeah, it's amazingly easy to exploit the rating system.  My friend spent the last few months carrying people to ridiculously high ratings.  Guess what rating he carried these scrubs to?  That's right.  The same rating you need to get the gear you have.  Yeah, 5/5 S4 would definitely say something about your quality as an arena player.  4/5, not so much.

It's fine to be excited.  Just don't post bullshit.  You've posted almost entirely bullshit here.

Oh wait, win trading, too.  Yeah, Blizzard has a NPC in Dalaran talking about how win trading is now a thing of the past.  LOL.

WoW requires time and a little effort.   It also requires a little love from the Blizzard 'flavor of the month' God's.