OP is full of lies.

Everyone knows they use Tigers in the pit

(seriously though if you could get a copy of the NDA that would be impressive and very welcomed)

Originally posted by 0muffins0

Originally posted by VPellen

Hrm, you know, in retrospect Zorvan, you're right. The word of a CM is nice, but it's not a legal document. If I were in a position of power I'd be tempted to say "Fuck it, good enough", but I'm not in a position of power, and as a user, the idea of rules being enforced without a solid basis bugs the crap out of me.

I'm going to see if I can't get a hold of a copy of the NDA. I'll post it here when and if I get my hands on it.

 

Would I be correct in saying that an NDA, as a legal contract between developer and beta tester, only applies to those who have agreed to sign up to the NDA?

 

I mean, if a beta tester PMs me with beta info when he has signed up to the NDA then he has broken the NDA, while if I were to divildge that info given to me I would not be breaking the NDA since as a non-beta tester I have not signed up to the NDA.

 

The only thing I can think of is that if you were dumb enough to admit you were aware that there was an NDA then maybe they could get you under some kind of industrial espionage law. But that is pretty far-fetched.

Originally posted by dterry

I would also point out that if you did not sign an NDA or in some other way agree to the terms of an NDA then you are not bound by it. So if someone in the bETA were to tell you something about the game and you posted it... they would be in trouble and not you. The only thing they might try to get you for would be using their intellectual property without their permission and I think that would hinge on if you did something like release video or screenshots from the Beta.

Technically our rules don't actually state that you're not allowed to post information while under the NDA, our rules state that you're not allowed to post information which is covered by the NDA. Technically when you get warned for an NDA violation, you're not getting warned for breaking the NDA, you're getting warned for disclosing information which the NDA covers.

Originally posted by VPellen

Originally posted by dterry

I would also point out that if you did not sign an NDA or in some other way agree to the terms of an NDA then you are not bound by it. So if someone in the bETA were to tell you something about the game and you posted it... they would be in trouble and not you. The only thing they might try to get you for would be using their intellectual property without their permission and I think that would hinge on if you did something like release video or screenshots from the Beta.

 

Technically our rules don't actually state that you're not allowed to post information while under the NDA, our rules state that you're not allowed to post information which is covered by the NDA. Technically when you get warned for an NDA violation, you're not getting warned for breaking the NDA, you're getting warned for disclosing information which the NDA covers.

I was Naval Intel and understand NDA's very well. You have to agree to an NDA to be subject to it. Like I said, maybe they could try to go after you for infringing on their intellectual property (but I think they have to prove you profitted from it) - it is more likely they would try to go after who ever leaked the information to you and then ban you from playing their game. They can always refuse you service.

Originally posted by dterry

I was Naval Intel and understand NDA's very well. You have to agree to an NDA to be subject to it. Like I said, maybe they could try to go after you for infringing on their intellectual property (but I think they have to prove you profitted from it) - it is more likely they would try to go after who ever leaked the information to you and then ban you from playing their game. They can always refuse you service.

What the Darkfall guys decide to do about NDA violators is their business. I'm just talking about the MMORPG.com side of things.

Basically, MMORPG.com supports both the spirit as well as the letter of game developers NDA's.

Originally posted by VPellen

Originally posted by dterry

I was Naval Intel and understand NDA's very well. You have to agree to an NDA to be subject to it. Like I said, maybe they could try to go after you for infringing on their intellectual property (but I think they have to prove you profitted from it) - it is more likely they would try to go after who ever leaked the information to you and then ban you from playing their game. They can always refuse you service.

 

What the Darkfall guys decide to do about NDA violators is their business. I'm just talking about the MMORPG.com side of things.

Sorry if I sounded argumentative there, it's not my intent. You are correct in that any NDA covers access to a given set of information.  But the simple fact is that if you have never agreed to an NDA then you cannot be prosecuted for violating it. What I think you would be looking at (in this specific case) is being prosecuted under Industrial Espionage or Trademark Infringement law. BUt I believe in both situations they would have to prove that you either profitted by the information or that you used/acquired it with malicious intent to their property.

If I remember right, when I created my account here I had to agree to MMORPG.coms' NDA and so I am held accountable to it.

Am I making sense, lol?

Originally posted by Jadedfire

Originally posted by VPellen

A friendly reminder about Darkfall's Beta NDA: If you are in the beta, telling other people you are in the beta is an NDA violation. If you say you're in beta, expect to get warned and expect your post to get deleted.

In addition, exposing information available only to beta testers (the "My-Friend-Is-In-Beta-So-I'm-Not-Breaking-The-NDA" defense) is also going to get you a warning, because you are not allowed to disclose things that are covered by the NDA, even if you are not the one in the beta.

There, now wasn't that little bit of reading worth it to avoid getting dropped into a pit of lions?

 

So with that being said, can you delete the threads that are created to demand evidence and proof of beta testing and reprimand those trying to encourage to break that violation? I am not going to mention any names in particular, but I do see qutie a few in the Darkfall threads frequently always spamming about how "there is no beta at all", "it is all a fake",  and "if there is give us evidence and proof" etc. Will the following posts be deleted as well?

Well either way, thank you for the information VPellen. I just hope what you said here will shut some people up and hopefully they will think twice before whining about proof or evidence of Darkfall's beta. It really gets annoying to hear them complain over and over again. 

It's all fake.
 

There, now they can delete this one too .

Originally posted by VPellen

For those of you asking how I know what the NDA says and hoping that I'm a trustworthy confirmation of the beta's existance, you're out of luck.

I contacted Darkfall's Community Manager and asked him. He told me in no uncertain words that disclosing that you are in the beta is a violation of the NDA.

/salute

Honestly, the only evidence i see that Darkfall is real, is the fact that MMORPG.com only has 14 games in the "games in development" section on the left there, and Darkfall is one of them.

If not for this site i would have stopped paying attention to DF a long time ago, seriously. The game sounds good to me, and i would love to get a chance to play it, but they really haven't put any effort into sharing with their fan base at all. I think this is a bad move on thier part. The arguements of Darkfall's existence or lack of it may bring attention to the game, but in my eyes it is negative attention that will not serve them in the long run, and could have a hand in them seeing so much trouble getting an NA publisher and what not as well.

I agree with people who say that Adv needs to let some kind of leakage slide in the near future for the sake of the fans patiently awaiting the game, as well as the game itself. I'm not condoning NDA breaks or trying to make one happen, but saying the company should rethink thier position, and find a way to temporarily allow some info to make it's way to the people without compromising the original intent of their NDA or depending on thier own resources which have proven a bit too slow for the demanding fan base.

In my eyes, in honor of the years of dedication of attention as well as the valuable spot in it's "In Development" forum section from MMORPG.com, this site should be chosen as a mediator that would be allowed to share a few things with it's 950k+ members, out of appreciation.

They could allow members of the MMORPG.com staff to divuldge select bits of footage ( taking for granted that Adv has actually allowed someone from the staff access to the beta ) without taking down thier NDA, and still allow valuable, trustworthy and long-awaited video evidence of Darkfall's existence and progress to reach the fans who will ultimately make or break the whole project at some point.

Adventurine, you know what we want, but we have no idea what you want. All we ask for is a little bit of goodness to wet our appetites and give us a bit of hope during the long wait. I don't see any way that could hurt you guys, even if the game is not in a state where you would think you should be showing it off yet, it is what is is, and it will be done when it's done, nothing can change that. You and your fans practically see eye to eye in your vision, so i don't think we will ever part ways in that respect, but without and reason to hope for the game or even have faith in it's existence, there will always be a dark cloud following the name Darkfall, and i'm betting your marketing and publication ventures will surely suffer from the mixed opinions and high amount of hate being thrown towards the game in general.

Just my perspective as a fan who has been waiting for the game since the days of Dark and Light, Age of Conan and Darkfall's original announcements. MMORPG.com has proven a loyal follower of it's development, and a little good will shown here from the devs will go a long way, i think. And, i don't think i'm alone here. So i officially submit my request for more info, specifically through MMORPG.com to be supplied to it's one million loyal members, hoping the lot of us equal enough weight that when thrown at Adv, they may just budge.

P.S.

Oh, also thowing one beta key my way would also do the trick in my eyes, another good option and you should honostly consider it also.

This just looks like damage control from their community manager to me, he has demonstrated time after time over the years he is just as clueless as the community he manages.

I suggest the OP or a member of the staff contact Aventurine and acquire an official confirmation and response or better yet an actual  copy of the NDA, but I very much doubt they will get a reply.

A member of staff reminding us about the NDA that they do not know the contents of for a public beta that may or may not even be taking place that has not actually had any legitimate beta leakers yet so far seems all rather farcical and superfluous.

In my opinion this is just perpetuating and justifying unsubstantiated claims from an extremely dubious source that represents an extremely dubious company.

Also the thread title is wrong and misleading

It says “Darkfall’s Beta NDA - READ,”

Darkfall’s Beta NDA is not reproduced in the thread, nor by their own admission does the OP know the contents of it either, nor do they have an official confirmation of its content, so non of us can or have read it yet, nor do we know officially what the NDA is yet.

Originally posted by VPellen

Technically our rules don't actually state that you're not allowed to post information while under the NDA, our rules state that you're not allowed to post information which is covered by the NDA. Technically when you get warned for an NDA violation, you're not getting warned for breaking the NDA, you're getting warned for disclosing information which the NDA covers.

Not to be devils advocate or anything... but a while back MMORPG.com had several gold seller adds on the website, something that blatantly breaks EULA's for MMO's, when asked, we were told that MMORPG.com doesnt make an opinion on legality, and just stays out of the issue.

I'm just curious then, why MMORPG.com chooses to stand up for the NDA's while saying nah no worries on the EULA's.

Seems to me you guys kind of pick and choose what you want to enforce.

Originally posted by dalevi1

Originally posted by Jadedfire

Originally posted by VPellen

A friendly reminder about Darkfall's Beta NDA: If you are in the beta, telling other people you are in the beta is an NDA violation. If you say you're in beta, expect to get warned and expect your post to get deleted.

In addition, exposing information available only to beta testers (the "My-Friend-Is-In-Beta-So-I'm-Not-Breaking-The-NDA" defense) is also going to get you a warning, because you are not allowed to disclose things that are covered by the NDA, even if you are not the one in the beta.

There, now wasn't that little bit of reading worth it to avoid getting dropped into a pit of lions?

 

So with that being said, can you delete the threads that are created to demand evidence and proof of beta testing and reprimand those trying to encourage to break that violation? I am not going to mention any names in particular, but I do see qutie a few in the Darkfall threads frequently always spamming about how "there is no beta at all", "it is all a fake",  and "if there is give us evidence and proof" etc. Will the following posts be deleted as well?

Well either way, thank you for the information VPellen. I just hope what you said here will shut some people up and hopefully they will think twice before whining about proof or evidence of Darkfall's beta. It really gets annoying to hear them complain over and over again. 

It's all fake.
 

There, now they can delete this one too .

lol...
 

I think you missed the point on that one, unless you are just being sarcastic. I was refering to people demanding evidence of someone who is in beta, for the most part. And that would be in violation of the NDA. That was the main point in my question. "It's all fake" is just one of the mere statements that is usally said by the person, along with asking for the evidence.   

Appearently though, VPellen's post didn't shut anyone up, unfortunately. I will be so glad when Darkfall is released and all this drama between Trolls and Fans will hopefully cool down some. This is just getting too ridiculous to even bother with anymore. It's been said before, this game was ruined before it was even released. As you can see, it is all due to this drama to thank for that. 

Doesn't this post shout loud and clear: "I am in beta!"?

Why else would one be concerned over its NDA?

Originally posted by randomt

Doesn't this post shout loud and clear: "I am in beta!"?

Why else would one be concerned over its NDA?

try reading the thread again..........

Originally posted by Pyrostasis

Originally posted by VPellen

Technically our rules don't actually state that you're not allowed to post information while under the NDA, our rules state that you're not allowed to post information which is covered by the NDA. Technically when you get warned for an NDA violation, you're not getting warned for breaking the NDA, you're getting warned for disclosing information which the NDA covers.

 

Not to be devils advocate or anything... but a while back MMORPG.com had several gold seller adds on the website, something that blatantly breaks EULA's for MMO's, when asked, we were told that MMORPG.com doesnt make an opinion on legality, and just stays out of the issue.

I'm just curious then, why MMORPG.com chooses to stand up for the NDA's while saying nah no worries on the EULA's.

Seems to me you guys kind of pick and choose what you want to enforce.

well it is their site, so really they can pick and choose what they want to enforce.  Sad but true.

A very interesting thread. Thank you VPellen for posting.

Originally posted by VPellen

Originally posted by Zayne3145

You can't even say you're in the Beta? That seems strange since people were allowed to state their inclusion in Beta for other games, unless I missed something?

NDAs vary from game to game. Some allow you say you're in beta, some don't. Darkfall is in the "don't" catagory.

Hmmmm I wonder why that is?   The developers keep giving us doubting Thomas's more and more reasons to believe this game is never comming out.

Originally posted by VPellen

Originally posted by dterry

I was Naval Intel and understand NDA's very well. You have to agree to an NDA to be subject to it. Like I said, maybe they could try to go after you for infringing on their intellectual property (but I think they have to prove you profitted from it) - it is more likely they would try to go after who ever leaked the information to you and then ban you from playing their game. They can always refuse you service.

 

What the Darkfall guys decide to do about NDA violators is their business. I'm just talking about the MMORPG.com side of things.

So what if so and so says something which may or may not be a real game feature.  Do you have to verify that is it part of the game to make sure it is an NDA violation?   If not, then you can warn/ban people on joke posting.  Seems like you are putting yourself into a tough situation. 

Or is this really about the negative darkfall information, like someone complaining about how somthing works.   Because, consumers are looking to gather information if you block negative information could consumers somehow find a way to say, you wouldn't allow this information to come out because you go paid advertising dollars from darkfall................lawsuit.  Is that the position you are puttng yourself in offically?

---

Originally posted by wjrasmussen

---

Originally posted by VPellen

---

Originally posted by dterry
I was Naval Intel and understand NDA's very well. You have to agree to an NDA to be subject to it. Like I said, maybe they could try to go after you for infringing on their intellectual property (but I think they have to prove you profitted from it) - it is more likely they would try to go after who ever leaked the information to you and then ban you from playing their game. They can always refuse you service.

---

 
What the Darkfall guys decide to do about NDA violators is their business. I'm just talking about the MMORPG.com side of things.

---

 
So what if so and so says something which may or may not be a real game feature.  Do you have to verify that is it part of the game to make sure it is an NDA violation?   If not, then you can warn/ban people on joke posting.  Seems like you are putting yourself into a tough situation. 
Or is this really about the negative darkfall information, like someone complaining about how somthing works.   Because, consumers are looking to gather information if you block negative information could consumers somehow find a way to say, you wouldn't allow this information to come out because you go paid advertising dollars from darkfall................lawsuit.  Is that the position you are puttng yourself in offically?

---

Consumers gather information when the product is released (since that is what you buy), anything before that is gravy. Besides there are always other signs if a game/company is shady (anyone else remember (Age of) Mourning?).

Breaching NDA to inform the public a game is crap/great? Seriously its games, not anything that might kill people (or save people for that matter).

And for official stance, moderators have no say, you will have to wait for Craig (CEO) or Ben (CTO) for that.

Originally posted by wjrasmussen

So what if so and so says something which may or may not be a real game feature.  Do you have to verify that is it part of the game to make sure it is an NDA violation?   If not, then you can warn/ban people on joke posting.  Seems like you are putting yourself into a tough situation. 

Or is this really about the negative darkfall information, like someone complaining about how somthing works.   Because, consumers are looking to gather information if you block negative information could consumers somehow find a way to say, you wouldn't allow this information to come out because you go paid advertising dollars from darkfall................lawsuit.  Is that the position you are puttng yourself in offically?

In regards to joke posting: We can't really verify what is and isn't a legitimate NDA violation, so if somebody fabricates information about the beta when they're not actually in the beta, they're still going to get warned because there's no way to know otherwise. A person can cleverly avoid getting warned for things such as this by not fabricating beta information.

As for the whole negative publicity thing.. I think it's time I explained why I made this thread.

A while back I was doing my rounds and I noticed a few reports of NDA violations coming from some threads on the forums. Now there were a few which were vague, just "Yeah I'm in the beta" typed things. So I thought, well shit, is this a violation of Darkfall's NDA? I remember there was some confusion with this type of thing for previous games.

So I contacted their CM. I figured he'd know if the NDA covered talking about if you were in beta or not. I asked him if I could get a copy of the NDA because it's hard to know what is and isn't a violation. He told me (as I showed in my post before) that pretty much anything up to and including disclosing if you're in beta or not is an NDA violation. Okay, fair enough, I took his word for it. I figure any CM worth his salt is going to know the basic limits of his game's NDA. I shared the information I got with the other moderators, too.

So I then I figured, since there's been talk of the beta and such lately, maybe this information would be a good thing to put up here, as it might prevent some people who are in the beta from violating the NDA unintentionally. So that's why I made this thread.

NOW.

In regards to the whole "are they really in beta, is it a big hoax, why are they covering up things," etc etc etc..

Companies have NDAs. All companies have NDAs covering their betas, more or less. This isn't something exclusive to Darkfall. And, given the situation, yeah, I suppose they could stand to benefit from people talking about their game, but the same argument could be made for any game. Still, developers have NDAs. I honestly don't know why. Maybe one day I'll have the pleasure of working with an MMO development team, and I'll understand why. But until that day comes around, I'm just going to accept it as standard. I may complain about it occasionally.


Finally, as for being paid off by the Darkfall team to suppress negative press about the game, I simply have one question for you: Have you read the forums lately? Because let me tell you, if we're being paid to cover up bad press about Darkfall, then we're doing a pretty fucking lousy job of it.

Originally posted by VPellen

Finally, as for being paid off by the Darkfall team to suppress negative press about the game, I simply have one question for you: Have you read the forums lately? Because let me tell you, if we're being paid to cover up bad press about Darkfall, then we're doing a pretty fucking lousy job of it.

This is pure gold..... and one of the greatest things I have ever read in the DF forums lol....

This whole thing is ridiculous and this would be the perfect time to settle it all once and for all.

A member of staff should simply request access to this public Beta so they can do a Beta preview.

I don’t see any legitimate reason why Aventurine would ignore or decline this offer unless they are still lying and misleading us about this games true status.

Originally posted by Polarization

This whole thing is ridiculous and this would be the perfect time to settle it all once and for all.

A member of staff should simply request access to this public Beta so they can do a Beta preview.

I don’t see any legitimate reason Aventurine should ignore or decline this offer unless they are lying and misleading us about this games true status.

Even better why cant Aventurine work with mmorpg.com on say.....a competition....to win a beta invite it would reinforce the belief there is actually a beta.....

Originally posted by VPellen

A friendly reminder about Darkfall's Beta NDA: If you are in the beta, telling other people you are in the beta is an NDA violation. If you say you're in beta, expect to get warned and expect your post to get deleted.

In addition, exposing information available only to beta testers (the "My-Friend-Is-In-Beta-So-I'm-Not-Breaking-The-NDA" defense) is also going to get you a warning, because you are not allowed to disclose things that are covered by the NDA, even if you are not the one in the beta.

There, now wasn't that little bit of reading worth it to avoid getting dropped into a pit of lions?

Why this site adopts such a silly approach to betas is beyond me.  Not as if you are beholden to a group of developers that pale at the thought of any reviewer looking at their game.

Just wondering can anyone on the MMO staff at least verify that there is an actual beta occuring.  That most certainly does not violate the way their NDA is written.