I am one of the many malcontents haunting these forums waiting for an MMO that gets me addicted again...

Some of us want Sandbox... pre-cu SWG style....

Some of us want EQ1 risk/fear/challenge....

Some of us want full loot open PvP....

Most of us want something new... there are many theories as to what might provide a new experience...

All of us want to recapture that feeling we had when we played our first MMO.  I've seen many people say we will  never recapture it... but I did once already and that gives me hope that I will again.  My first amazing MMO experience was EQ.... I particularly think that the lack of maps made the world seem vast and mysterious.. and the death penalty made the world seem intimidating and scary.  I think the dumbing down of EQ started with instant travel being made too available (player ports were fine) first with SoL, then really badly with PoP.

I had a great experience with SWG, but to be honest it didnt last that long... maybe 6 months to a year.  The population dropping (due to lack of things to do and broken pvp) killed the worlds alive feeling.

My next real MMO obsession was WoW.  I found the world immersive... the new angle on quest grinding camoflaged the grind for a while..... five man instanced dungeons were fantastic... world pvp (pre BG's) was good.... five man tactics and interdependence was the best I'd ever seen.  The game's only real fault was that it was too easy (excluding extreme end game 40 man content).... which meant we sortof finished it in a relatively short time... In EQ max level seemed like a nearly impossible goal... in WoW it was an easily reachable guarantee.

Eventually the shine of WoW wore off... the grind became a grind again....  everything began to look and feel the same as everything else...

Since that happened I have not been able to enjoy any other MMO at all for more then a very short while.  Vanguard was the promise.... but even if it hadn't crashed and burned I think I would still have been too burnt out to really enjoy it.

What's my point?  What do I want?  Some kind of new revelation in MMO gaming that hides the grind for a while again... something to give a fresh and new experience.  I would love for this game to include some or all of my favorite past MMO features (housing, death penalty, no maps, 5 man content, challenge).. but the truth is WoW worked and it didnt have any of my favorite old features... We just need innovation.

Aion looks like it might be the next great MMO, but it doesnt have anything to make it a totally fresh experience.  Right now I'm waiting for Jumpgate Evolution because at least its something different, but I'm sure it wont satisfy my MMO craving.

This is going to be my first month without an MMO to play.  I have played every P2P MMO released in the USA and I have come to realize I don't like MMORPGS.  I want an online world to have fun in.  I miss socializing with people and doing random things because they seem fun, not because I need to level or farm for money.

Putting this genre on hold until we get out of the MMORP"Game" mindset and developers start making MMORP"Worlds".

pre-CU SWG and EVE are the MMORP-worlds I'm familiar with.  Both were great in their own way, but only appeal to a more limited audience.  The SWG experience is long gone, and admittedly EVE isn't the cure for all SWG players as it is a totally different experience and requires patience...

So yes, we need more MMORP-Worlds... but we still need to find a way to keep players interested for a long time without boring them with more and more of the same old experience (grind).

Originally posted by Sepulcher

This is going to be my first month without an MMO to play.  I have played every P2P MMO released in the USA and I have come to realize I don't like MMORPGS.  I want an online world to have fun in.  I miss socializing with people and doing random things because they seem fun, not because I need to level or farm for money.

Putting this genre on hold until we get out of the MMORP"Game" mindset and developers start making MMORP"Worlds".

Second Life?  There?

Second life is a wonderful idea.. the technology just isnt there and the total freedom makes for a very incongruous world.

Yes we are hard to please for very good reason.Every game coming out looks/acts and plays the same.There is not one game that comes out screaming "Play me over any other game".

We do NOT have one single TRUE MMORPG that has a world that feels ALIVE and real.Every single game ,really does feel like a game engine with mobs and npc's just dotted around with no reason.

Games are saying "I'm CUTE" play me..or "We have great PVP" play me,or we have a "Diverse Game" play me,they all end up being superficial games with very little realism/content.

Where games are going wrong is in the PVP area.Instead of saying PVP really matters in this game,it SHOULD be the NPC's really matter.The games should have NPC's that carry on in the game like they were/are in a real world ,moving around/interacting with the game.That way if you decide to kill one ,it could have huge ramifications on the game for everyone else.The game could have bounty hunters that seek out players all over the world because they are labeled killers/murderers.Instead we have games trying to pretend that killing another player will make any difference in the game..lol,it makes no sense.Plotting NPC's in front of static buildings offering boring quests is definitely the most boring,useless thing to do to a game.

I really hate to say it,but i am slapping myself in the face for saying it...we sort of need a SIMS type of world where the whole world is REALISTIC and interacting with itself.That is the TRUE way a game and it's players would mold the world.Anything else from PVP is just kill each other ,rinse repeat,really means squat.I am not talking about just a SIMS game,but a Fantasy or SCI fi type MMO that plays sort of like a SIMS but still has the roleplaying elements that we expect from our MMORPG games.

Plain and simple ,people are tiring of these same old ,same old,develop a skill tree and then spend your whole game looking for gear,doing ridiculous quests,or grinding Xp over and over aimlessly.

The concept is VERY simple,i cannot believe ,there is not one game that has not done it yet.

Originally posted by Wizardry

Yes we are hard to please for very good reason.Every game coming out looks/acts and plays the same.There is not one game that comes out screaming "Play me over any other game".

We do NOT have one single TRUE MMORPG that has a world that feels ALIVE and real.Every single game ,really does feel like a game engine with mobs and npc's just dotted around with no reason.

I really hate to say it,but i am slapping myself in the face for saying it...we sort of need a SIMS type of world where the whole world is REALISTIC and interacting with itself.That is the TRUE way a game and it's players would mold the world.Anything else from PVP is just kill each other ,rinse repeat,really means squat.I am not talking about just a SIMS game,but a Fantasy or SCI fi type MMO that plays sort of like a SIMS but still has the roleplaying elements that we expect from our MMORPG games.

The concept is VERY simple,i cannot believe ,there is not one game that has not done it yet.

I'm intrigued.

How do you propose we make a world feel alive and real, and what would we do to make it feel more realistic and the other things you are saying?

I want an MMO with SIM style environmental additions that won't affect the rest of the game or other players.

Originally posted by Aeroangel

Originally posted by Wizardry

Yes we are hard to please for very good reason.Every game coming out looks/acts and plays the same.There is not one game that comes out screaming "Play me over any other game".

We do NOT have one single TRUE MMORPG that has a world that feels ALIVE and real.Every single game ,really does feel like a game engine with mobs and npc's just dotted around with no reason.

I really hate to say it,but i am slapping myself in the face for saying it...we sort of need a SIMS type of world where the whole world is REALISTIC and interacting with itself.That is the TRUE way a game and it's players would mold the world.Anything else from PVP is just kill each other ,rinse repeat,really means squat.I am not talking about just a SIMS game,but a Fantasy or SCI fi type MMO that plays sort of like a SIMS but still has the roleplaying elements that we expect from our MMORPG games.

The concept is VERY simple,i cannot believe ,there is not one game that has not done it yet.

 

I'm intrigued.

How do you propose we make a world feel alive and real, and what would we do to make it feel more realistic and the other things you are saying?

 

Aeroangel,

welcome to MMORPG.com =)  I've read several posts by you now and you rock.

Just a scratch on the surface of this questions possible answers.....

NPC's that close up shop, go to the bar.. eat dinner, and go to sleep as the hours go bye.

Having only one or two main cities so this area will be well populated, instead of spreading the players thin and making the world feel deserted.

The ability to do things that impact the world... maybe even affect the ongoing storyline.

Overall these are tall orders... MMO's are expensive and time consuming to create even at their current level of technology..... I know my ideal MMO would cost a rediculous amount to make.  Vanguard was supposed to be my new home.. but we all know how that went. 

Originally posted by Swiftblade13

I am one of the many malcontents haunting these forums waiting for an MMO that gets me addicted again...

 

Some of us want Sandbox... pre-cu SWG style....

Some of us want EQ1 risk/fear/challenge....

Some of us want full loot open PvP....

Most of us want something new... there are many theories as to what might provide a new experience...

 

Can I have a Pre-cu SWG sandbox with EQ1 risk/fear/challenge and a full loot open PvP, with a bit of something new thrown in just for good measure?

I don't think we are impossible to please I just honestly think that devs are releasing half-assed unfinished games and expect us to pay for their beta tests.

Originally posted by Swiftblade13

I am one of the many malcontents haunting these forums waiting for an MMO that gets me addicted again...

 

Some of us want Sandbox... pre-cu SWG style....

Some of us want EQ1 risk/fear/challenge....

Some of us want full loot open PvP....

Most of us want something new... there are many theories as to what might provide a new experience...

 

All of us want to recapture that feeling we had when we played our first MMO.  I've seen many people say we will  never recapture it... but I did once already and that gives me hope that I will again.  My first amazing MMO experience was EQ.... I particularly think that the lack of maps made the world seem vast and mysterious.. and the death penalty made the world seem intimidating and scary.  I think the dumbing down of EQ started with instant travel being made too available (player ports were fine) first with SoL, then really badly with PoP.

I had a great experience with SWG, but to be honest it didnt last that long... maybe 6 months to a year.  The population dropping (due to lack of things to do and broken pvp) killed the worlds alive feeling.

My next real MMO obsession was WoW.  I found the world immersive... the new angle on quest grinding camoflaged the grind for a while..... five man instanced dungeons were fantastic... world pvp (pre BG's) was good.... five man tactics and interdependence was the best I'd ever seen.  The game's only real fault was that it was too easy (excluding extreme end game 40 man content).... which meant we sortof finished it in a relatively short time... In EQ max level seemed like a nearly impossible goal... in WoW it was an easily reachable guarantee.

Eventually the shine of WoW wore off... the grind became a grind again....  everything began to look and feel the same as everything else...

Since that happened I have not been able to enjoy any other MMO at all for more then a very short while.  Vanguard was the promise.... but even if it hadn't crashed and burned I think I would still have been too burnt out to really enjoy it.

 

What's my point?  What do I want?  Some kind of new revelation in MMO gaming that hides the grind for a while again... something to give a fresh and new experience.  I would love for this game to include some or all of my favorite past MMO features (housing, death penalty, no maps, 5 man content, challenge).. but the truth is WoW worked and it didnt have any of my favorite old features... We just need innovation.

Aion looks like it might be the next great MMO, but it doesnt have anything to make it a totally fresh experience.  Right now I'm waiting for Jumpgate Evolution because at least its something different, but I'm sure it wont satisfy my MMO craving.

 

Yeah I'm impossible to please concerning the perfect mmorpg... I could only design it myself which would cost a few million dollars if not 1 billion, so I'm either gonna have to become rich or be annoyed at mmorpgs forever which is most likely but lately I've found just to be happy with the good features and ignore the lack of other features..... in wow I like everything except a few things and I try to ignore this it's worked so far.... if I had to name a few things the game lacks I'd say it would be: graphics, height/width face customizations with characters, player housing, the lack of being able to join low level dungeon groups, the lack of allowable skills, the few tiny things that take me out of the game like earthly jokes which shouldn't be repeated by NPCs on a regular basis in other words the lack of sotryline depth, and the lack of roleplayers but that's the mentality of the players. Those are just a few, the game is the funnest I've played since UO though so I'm not complaining that much.

I'll take EQ1 Pre-Luclin.

They never should have put in the Bazaar.

They never should have put in the PoP books.

The expansions should have all been new, undiscovered land, with a boat to get there, and a druid circle or Wizard ring.

... kept people together.

With the PoP books and the planes, the whole world fragmented into separate groups and the game was ruined.

    I think the biggest part of the problem is that we dont know what we want really.......You could put up topics like death penalty, solo v group v raid, pve vs pvp, etc etc etc and find that everyone is split on all of them......While alot of us veteran MMO players have preferences Im not totally sure that we really want to go through an EQ1 type of experience again.....While the game was a blast it was also a huge time sink that literally took many hours away from us.......Do people really want to go back to the days of when it could take a month to gain certain levels again??...... The problem is that the new games dont satisfy most of the veteran MMO players for very long....Most of them are too simple for people that have played for the last 10 years and most of them just come across as boring time sinks and not  challenges.....

What a cool thread.  Really got me thinking.  You know, as I reflect, I've been happy as a pig in sh*t playing two MMO's that I spent about 2 years in, for each one.

They were both immersive and fun.  One worked better than the other, by far.  Each had strengths and weaknesses.

For example, I liked SWG for the open worlds, exploration, immersion in the StarWars universe, and the game mechanics that allowed for a lot of player interaction and socialization.  Exploring, fighting, shopping, playing in the cantina band.  Finding crystals for friends.  Very fun stuff.

In City of Heroes, I've enjoyed the combat mechanics, the super-powered travel, the team dynamics, the newer task-forces with cool stories and cut screens etc.  I've also enjoyed the emphasis on character building, and crafting the best enhancement sets for my powers.

Beyond any doubt, what ruined both of these experiences for me, and led me to leave both games (sub still winding down on CoH) is the decision of the parent company (or companies) to alter core game mechanics, and render years worth of progress completely invalid, in the desperate hope to attract some kind of new playerbase.  This really has been a game-breaking experience for me.

What gets me about both of these situations is that you had devs and players in both that were willing to improve the existing game to address real problems that pretty much everyone seemed to be aware of.  Everyone except the marketting department and their poorly designed focus groups that is.

There's a wealth of good input in MMO communities, but companies don't seem to know how to mine it accurately.  They seem to depend overly much on third-party surveys and focus groups that yield badly misleading quantitative data.  In other words, they don't listen to their players, and end up totally pissing them off.  The game then loses it's foundation and gets a bad reputation.  Yet, this is the preferred strategy for trying to bring in new players.  The strategy is designed to fail.

Maybe some day MMO companies will find a way to gather accurate helpful information from those that play their games and those that don't.  Maybe they'll find a way to honour their current players' progress and enjoyment, AND ADD things to their game that appeal to new target groups.  It's pretty clear to me that some companies just can't seem to get this right.  Hopefully they, or others, eventually will.

Yes and no, there are millions of mmo subscribers that are content with what they have and happy pay the monthly fee to keep things as is, but there are people that frequent this site and others myself included that are very vocal some more then others about their dislike about where mmo have gone. 

How many millions of people play WoW, but if you asked a question about WoW here you would think it is the biggest PoS around, not the 500 pound gorilla that it is.

Everyone wants something a little different, I doubt any one mmo could please the mmorpg.com crowd.

Love to have a full open world that i am free to explore. Crafting that matters and if you must have pvp keep in it  in wild areas like the old DAoC frontier. Don't need full loot pvp especially if we want a successful game that will last we don't need another Shadowbane.

Originally posted by Swiftblade13

Originally posted by Aeroangel

Originally posted by Wizardry

Yes we are hard to please for very good reason.Every game coming out looks/acts and plays the same.There is not one game that comes out screaming "Play me over any other game".

We do NOT have one single TRUE MMORPG that has a world that feels ALIVE and real.Every single game ,really does feel like a game engine with mobs and npc's just dotted around with no reason.

I really hate to say it,but i am slapping myself in the face for saying it...we sort of need a SIMS type of world where the whole world is REALISTIC and interacting with itself.That is the TRUE way a game and it's players would mold the world.Anything else from PVP is just kill each other ,rinse repeat,really means squat.I am not talking about just a SIMS game,but a Fantasy or SCI fi type MMO that plays sort of like a SIMS but still has the roleplaying elements that we expect from our MMORPG games.

The concept is VERY simple,i cannot believe ,there is not one game that has not done it yet.

 

I'm intrigued.

How do you propose we make a world feel alive and real, and what would we do to make it feel more realistic and the other things you are saying?

 

 

Aeroangel,

welcome to MMORPG.com =)  I've read several posts by you now and you rock.

 

Just a scratch on the surface of this questions possible answers.....

NPC's that close up shop, go to the bar.. eat dinner, and go to sleep as the hours go bye.

Having only one or two main cities so this area will be well populated, instead of spreading the players thin and making the world feel deserted.

The ability to do things that impact the world... maybe even affect the ongoing storyline.

 

Overall these are tall orders... MMO's are expensive and time consuming to create even at their current level of technology..... I know my ideal MMO would cost a rediculous amount to make.  Vanguard was supposed to be my new home.. but we all know how that went. 

 

 

Yes you get the idea, i am glad someone does.As i already stated how it would be achieved...through better and complete use of NPC's.You are aslo correct ,when eluding to NOT thinning out the popualtion the way EVERY single MMO does.It not only alienates the player base but makes noob zones obsolete after a few months,making for a poor environment for new players .

Originally posted by Theocritus

    I think the biggest part of the problem is that we dont know what we want really.......You could put up topics like death penalty, solo v group v raid, pve vs pvp, etc etc etc and find that everyone is split on all of them......While alot of us veteran MMO players have preferences Im not totally sure that we really want to go through an EQ1 type of experience again.....While the game was a blast it was also a huge time sink that literally took many hours away from us.......Do people really want to go back to the days of when it could take a month to gain certain levels again??...... The problem is that the new games dont satisfy most of the veteran MMO players for very long....Most of them are too simple for people that have played for the last 10 years and most of them just come across as boring time sinks and not  challenges.....

Your way of thinking is EXACTLY what i don't want to see from MMO's.You are more worried about how long it takes to get a level than if the game is fun or not.If you want to just level with no purpose then WOW /EQ/ tons of them already out there.If a GAME IS FUN,you would never worry about or care about the leveling.Also time does not matter because you are there to game ,how is time a factor?Nobody is telling you when or how much time to spend ,you can spend whatever time you want.As i already mentioned a properly designed game will not leave players behind,the zones will always feel full.The idea of constantly moving players furher away from the starting area is ridiculous.

All the game developers are doing right now is creating new maps,new scenery to keep players interested.A game world that is actually alive and kicking with interactive NPC's won't need new zones that seperate players all over the game world.

It used to be, wow thats very cool or hey look at what features this game has . I remember way back in DAOC where i longed for every level and every new ability earned because they really improved my class as i leveled up substantially with every learned skill. I'm hard to please but not impossible to please when it comes to MMO's. I know what i like , I know what i don't like and most of all i know exactly what i want in my next MMO addiction as do many. Any of us with 10-12+ years of MMO experience HAVE seen it all before. This doesn't mean there is no future for us but it will take a developer who understands the wants and desires of the MATURE gamer to make that hit.

I'm 46 for heavens sake. I've been gaming since the days of pong. I had a computer when computers were born. I was online about the day the internet opened for business. I've own probably 85% of the released game titles on this web site. Something devs need to understand is alot of us would easily pay twice what the average sub costs in todays MMO market for a game that yeah my be niche but the nich market is huge. Sure 15 bucks a month is dirt cheap entertainment but who is going to pay that price for a game that doesn't entertain.

WOW is  a generic game as are most modern MMO to include the recently released WAR..  They own the appeal to most everybody market down with the expection of niche players. We veteran gamers are not impossible to please. We know what we want and hopefully one day a deve will hen peck a niche market and make the MMO Market feel alive again.