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http://www.destructoid.com/blogs/Gam...e-110860.phtml I thoroughly agree with alot that this game-blogger has to say about the nature of the genre in today's online gaming marketplace. I myself was an EQ1 addict way back in the day. It was my first true foray into online gaming, and it had me, hook line and sinker, for five years straight. Since I left EQ1 ive hopped from game to game, trying desperately to find the same sort of feeling/experience that I had while running around in Norrath... but alas, few games can actually hold my attention. EQ2 and SWG (pre-NGE) managed to grab me for awhile, and games like CoH/CoV, Eve Online, WoW, Saga of Ryzom, Lineage 2, and even the newer ones like WAR and Age of Conan have their merits, and managed to interest me for a time in their own ways. However, I have yet to find another MMO that truly grabs me and has the ability to hold my interest for an extended period of time. I suppose the closest ive found since EQ1 was EQ2, which has gotten very big and very polished over the years. I may go back to it at some point if WAR doesnt make some big strides in the near future. In my opinion, for an MMO to have staying power it requires a few core things that games trying to be like WoW, and even WoW itself, have tossed aside in favor of appealing to a mass audience. 1) A wide selection of classes/races, unique appearances/armor styles Gamers, especially in the MMO genre, enjoy being unique. EQ1 had what is still one of the largest pools of classes/races to choose from. Later on in its life it even adapted armor dyes that allowed players to customize how their avatars looked even further. People dont like looking like everyone else, its a big draw to be able to stand out in these online virtual games. Some of the second gen MMOs manage this (Vanguard/EQ2/Pre-NGE SWG are the first that pop to mind), but many have tried to streamline to mimick WoW. 2) Size/diversity of the world/environments Though few games can really manage the seamless world concept well (The best example of a seamless world game that ive played is Lineage 2. Very little zoning and the world was huge.) Alot of MMOs have had to resort to using zones, but in earlier games, even the zones gave a sense of immensity and scale, they were huge. 3) Challenge/complexity of quests/content WoW and the games that have followed in its profitable, albeit shallow, footsteps seem to be lacking in this field. While older games like EQ1 didnt necessarily have the most innovative quest systems, they at least demanded more involvement from their players than "Click on the conveniently marked quest-giving npc, then scroll down past the text to accept the quest. After the quest is accepted, follow the radar/map directions to the place you needed to go." One of the major reasons people are becoming bored with MMOs in general, I think, is a lack of depth and complexity. There is far too much hand-holding now, and though it may appeal to casual gamers who are used to being handed everything for nothing, it leaves little in the sense of being rewarded for effort put in. If you barely have to work for anything, you wont really appreciate anything you get as a result. 4) Community This is a big one. Games these days, especially ones like WAR, seem to be closing people off from each other. There is no reason to speak to another player at all, there is no reason to be a part of a cohesive community. You can basically run WAR in singleplayer mode by just queueing for scenarios and interacting with NPCs, never speaking to another player, and get to max level doing so. While the ability to solo now and then in a game is nice, the genre itself is what it is BECAUSE the games that launched it gave people a sense of community, it was the social aspect of MMOs that made them interesting and addictive (for me at least, feel free to disagree). Before the Bazaar zone was created in EQ1, people actually had to stand around in the Eastern Commons auctioning their wares by shouting in the tunnel to the desert. The zone was always busy, it always had people coming and going, people would haggle, interact, meet... that sort of thing creates a community. It gives people a strong want/need/reason to interact with each other. Older games demanded interaction, newer games seem to be shunning it... I dunno, its one of the reasons the genre feels stale these days. Everything is instanced, everything is long distance tells/messages. Its too easy to walk through anything without needing to interact with others. 5) A sense of wonder/non-linear gameplay I dont get this anymore. There was a time that I could move through a gameworld and be awed by it. Now, in games like WoW and WAR, there is little that serves to evoke that feeling. Sometimes ill go "Oh, thats kinda cool" or "Hey, thats neat", but there is no more true reaction in me when I play the game. Im not just jaded though, there are still games that bring me back to that place (Most recent one being Fallout 3). I get the feeling that everything is rushed now, there is no beauty or depth because the beauty and depth were always in the details, and many WoWesque games lack exactly that. Detail. Also, the ability to go anywhere/do anything without the game holding your hand or giving you a convenient arrow on your radarmap that tells you "GO HERE NEXT!" was nice because it tied into the whole challenge thing. Someone described WAR as a single road that you run along from level 1-40. It just has different chapters along said road. Very linear, eventually boring. I dunno, I tend to ramble, im an MMO vet and spend a great deal of time pining for the golden age of EQ1/Ultima Online... a couple of the new sandboxy ones coming out have my interest piqued (Darkfall/Mortal Online) but they may vapor, or lose their way. Im very hesitant to get my hopes up these days. Also, keep in mind that this is all just my opinion. I dont expect everyone to agree with me. This is all my 2 cents I suppose. For what its worth, I hope the 4th gen games are a return to the primitive. Because the new age ones are so very small and limited and linear it hurts. |
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Golden age according to dictionary.com: "the most flourishing period in the history of a nation, literature, etc."
EQ1 is still around, UO is still around, AC aswell as many other titles are still around. Wow and warhammer are doing great, along with EQ2 and LOTRO. Many games are doing fine. Aion is around the corner, darkfall is around the corner, aswell as many other titles. This is the golden age of mmorpgs and will remain that way until the community starts shrinking and/or publishers stop making games.
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Originally posted by TheHavok
I'd say the Golden Age is yet to come. UO, EQ1, DAoC etc were the pioneers. Then came King Warcraft who assumed the throne with sheer brute force. WAR and AoC were pretenders to the throne, but failed to mount a succesful coup. 2009 will be the peasants revolt that will bring about the revolution, leading us into the Golden Age...
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Originally posted by Zayne3145
I'd say the Golden Age is yet to come. UO, EQ1, DAoC etc were the pioneers. Then came King Warcraft who assumed the throne with sheer brute force. WAR and AoC were pretenders to the throne, but failed to mount a succesful coup. 2009 will be the peasants revolt that will bring about the revolution, leading us into the Golden Age... I hope the best is yet to come. I would like a game that draws the best elements from all of those that came before it. In my opinion, the perfect MMO would have all of the following. - A large, detailed, seamless world/dungeons - Graphically interesting (dosent have to be the most beautiful thing in the world, but cant be below current industry standards) - Stable gameplay/performance - Wide variety of races/classes/appearances/armor/weapons so you arent just another clone - Non-linear gameplay - Challenging content/quests/experiences/combat - Player housing - Roleplaying elements (emotes/animations etc) - Less reliance on gear without making gear completely worthless (gear should give an edge, but not an overwhelming one) - A good measure of reliance on other players that forces the playerbase to cohere and build a community. - PvP rewards/consequences/incentives (hasnt been a game yet that gets this 100% right, though a few do come close in certain aspects) - Better use of AI for NPC encounters (have mobs take cover when under ranged fire, get help if help is nearby, attack in certain ways against certain classes etc)
Pipedreaming is fun |
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Originally posted by Zayne3145
I'd say the Golden Age is yet to come. UO, EQ1, DAoC etc were the pioneers. Then came King Warcraft who assumed the throne with sheer brute force. WAR and AoC were pretenders to the throne, but failed to mount a succesful coup. 2009 will be the peasants revolt that will bring about the revolution, leading us into the Golden Age...
A powerful image, but one I want to agree with. I sometimes feel like WOW has led us into a dictatorship of one ideal only. Since then, limited scope, casual friendly theme park games rule the day. I have hopes the upcoming games may chance that, but we'll see. The sad truth is, in general once games were made by gamers for gamers. They were made by gamers who had this idea to make the ideal game they wanted to play themselves. Today most is just commerce, a ware to be sold with a max quantum of profit by greedy asses like EA and their stockholders. What I can only hope is that even the capitalists and bean counters sometimes realize that too limited dreams also are a bad investment. See AoC and WAR. They tried to perfectly cater one type of target audience, but it was way too limited in scope and in the end is so lackluster most people just leave the games after a short time. That the last approach to make a vast game, Vanguard, had failed massively, did great damage to the entire genre. I said it back then and say it again, the failure of VG is something we all are going to suffer from for many years to come. No MMO developer will have the courage to try such a vast game in any forseeable time now. But I hope at least it gets a bit more creative and diverse with the MMOs 2009+.
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I'd say golden age was pretty subjective. I mean when could it be said the 'golden age' of gaming- everyone will have different ideas. |
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Soon you will see its not vapor and darkfall will be reality for many a nightmare i know they hated when a game comes along thats is truely different from what the mass wants these days wow and the copy copy copy copy that followed after while, even wow is a 100% copy lol. Darkfall wil be the new kid on block not in numbers when it comes to subs but to awesome hardcore sandbox gameplay with core build around pvp not like all those fake pvp mmo's that implemented pvp as after thought. |
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Originally posted by Evasia
When will people learn not to hail a MMO as the holy grail of MMO's until it is released? Have people not learned their lessons from the myriad of over-hyped, under-delivered games that have come out recently? Don't come crying to me when this game comes out and it is not what you expected. I'm not a Darkfall hater or troll I just have been in your shoes too many times where I thought a game would be the end-all-be-all and then it released, and while it may be a good game (or a bug filled POS in many cases) it couldn't live up to my expectations, because my expectations were so high nothing could. I'm just trying to save you some future pain man. |
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Originally posted by Jonsus
I agree with everything, except your assertion in number 3 that being lost somehow enhances the game play, or the game world. Clicking on a compass in EQ over and over, and being lost so game time is wasted running around never enhanced the game for me, and only created frustration. I want a map to follow. Wandering around lost wishing you were doing something fun instead is not a fun game, IMO. I could care less if this makes the game "less complex". And no, I don't want to run up to every NPC in the game to find the right one, that also is boring, frustrating, and not in the least bit fun. EQ2 adding ways to find your way around the game world was a HUGE improvement over EQ1.
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Arcken
 Hard Core Member
Joined: 8/14/04
Lets face it, MMOs today are turning into single player console games with a chat box included. |
Originally posted by Ihmotepp
I agree with everything, except your assertion in number 3 that being lost somehow enhances the game play, or the game world. Clicking on a compass in EQ over and over, and being lost so game time is wasted running around never enhanced the game for me, and only created frustration. I want a map to follow. Wandering around lost wishing you were doing something fun instead is not a fun game, IMO. I could care less if this makes the game "less complex". And no, I don't want to run up to every NPC in the game to find the right one, that also is boring, frustrating, and not in the least bit fun. EQ2 adding ways to find your way around the game world was a HUGE improvement over EQ1. I actually felt like the lack of maps added to the immersion in eq1, it forced you to remember locations. I cant recall how manytimes Id go somewhere and had to run to point a, hang a left, get to point be, run sw til you see a certain landmark, then run south from there. Now everythings a magical map that requires no "learning". As always with me, the bigger the challenge, the bigger the sense of satisfaction when its overcome. |
Originally posted by Arcken I actually felt like the lack of maps added to the immersion in eq1, it forced you to remember locations. I cant recall how manytimes Id go somewhere and had to run to point a, hang a left, get to point be, run sw til you see a certain landmark, then run south from there. Now everythings a magical map that requires no "learning". As always with me, the bigger the challenge, the bigger the sense of satisfaction when its overcome.
I have a bad sense of direction in real life. I don't need this same frustration in a game. I NEVER remember which way to go, which means without any "magical map" I'm ALWAYS lost in the game. That equals ZERO fun for me. Magical Maps make the game 100X more fun for me.
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I agree on most thing... The radararm that holds players hand however is always easy to turn off, just don't use it. But the genre needs to go back to it's roots and have a new look on pen and paper RPGs again, not taking so many ideas from solo games. However copying old MMOs like Everquest isn't the right way either, we need new thinking and ideas we never really seen in a computer game before. |
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Originally posted by Elikal QFT |
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You (the poster) will definitely like the game concept I am designing then (mainly out of boredom), but will never even come off the paper/world processor unless a miracle happens (and if I can even get off my butt after the miracle happens. What can I say? Laziness an essential part of my life). I am a sheep, not a shepard. |
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I think this is just all paranoia really. Where are all these carbon copies of wow? Sure, the UI in a lot of games looks similar but wow took a lot of their UI from older games anyway. The success of wow actually makes it harder to release a game that would be very similar because you would have to put in loads of money to get to the level of polish for example. MMO player's are also more likely to stick with a product over a carbon copy due to character commitment etc. Imagine if a carbon copy of EVE came out that had some slight changes such as different ships, or maybe a slightly better mining system. Most people playing EVE probably wouldn't switch over. Developer's arent stupid for the most part and neither are investors. They are far more likely, imo, to create MMO's that offer substantial differences to WoW rather than create carbon copies as they have a consumer base that is easier to attract. |
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Have you tried Vanguard? I know it launched as a buggy ass failed attempt of an MMO, but the Devs have really turned the game around. 1) A wide selection of classes/races, unique appearances/armor styles There is a new starting area called Isle of Dawn that by level 11, you have a full set of unique armor. There are three different continental styles that appear different, and as you level up there are multiple quests that have gear sets like the Hunter's League quest, the Swamps Armor, and the set you can get from collecting coins just to name a few. There are a ton of races and clases, 15 classes total, and a LOT of them have different specs you can go. For example, the ranger can do a quest to become a melee ranger or a ranged ranger, the shaman can become a bird, wolf, or bear shaman and each one is very different than the others in terms of playstyle and capabilities. There are 19 races as well, and each one has it's own individual racial ability. As you level up you get attribute points that you can put in various core stats like dex etc., like EQ.
2) Size/diversity of the world/environments The world is HUGE. Honestly it would take you a long time to run from one side of the continent to the other, and there's 3 continents. I mean this game is gigantic! The areas all don't look the same either, on each continent there are different archetecture styles, and there are a TON of dungeons in this game. I mean a ton. There are no loading screens either, unless you rift or recall to a zone not touching the one you're in, loading across chunk lines is "seamless" although there is a little loading as you hit the line but it takes only a moment. There are a lot of overland bosses, and one big 18 man raid dungeon. The bosses all have different strats, it's not all just tank and spank. They're coming out with new group content in the next patch, and their second raid dungeon is due out in Jan/Feb-ish. The artwork is beautful in this game, and it's the closest thing, gameplay wise to oldschool everquest that I could find.
3) Challenge/complexity of quests/content There is a death penalty, you lose XP when you die unless you retrieve your corpse. You will rez at the nearest altar unless you release to your bind point, so it's a toned down version of EQ's death penalty system. They're reworking it on Test atm to make it more difficult so you also will revive with a debuff that stacks up to -50% on stats if you keep dying. There are TONS of quests, and LOTS to do. I'm level 50, which is the cap, and I haven't done a lot of adventuring yet. There are coin collection quests that get you a flying mount, a racial mount, and gear that I've not done. I've completed the raid dungeon, but there are a lot of group dungeons I'm still experiencing for the first time. There a lot of quests that are not just kill X and bring me Y quests. I believe they're adding a new group dungeon geared towards the 50s that's supposed to come out soon, we tested it out with the devs on test, it looks pretty cool :) If you rolled on the PVP server, like I have you'll always have the challenge of PVP. It's very addicting, and the fights are balanced in group v group and raid v raid, but not so much 1v1 so you always have to be leary about who is in your zone and try to keep friends around you. There are 3 spheres, diplomacy which is a pretty fun card-like game you play against NPCs and once you get to the higher levels they can give you pretty big buffs. The crafting sphere is similar to EQ2's crafting and a lot of people enjoy it but crafting is not really my thing. Point is, there is always something to do, and if you PVP, there's always people to kill.
4) Community The community on Sartok, the PVP server, is thin, but I wouldn't trade them for the world. Everyone is tight-knit and knows who everyone else is and what guilds are good and what guilds RandomPlayerKill. We have our crafters on the server that everyone goes to to get things made, and we have our elite guilds, our casual guilds, and others that fall inbetween. As soon as you get involved a little bit in the guild politics on the PVP server you'll find yourself immersed in the game moreso than a PVE server could offer because you get to know everyone on another level and the people they kill or help effects you and your guild. It's a great community, and a lot of people are willing to help if asked. If you rolled on the PVP server, Sartok, look for Eiindyin and I'll be happy to give you a helping hand if you needed some money to get up on your feet or help with some quests.
5) A sense of wonder/non-linear gameplay There are things in this game that amaze me. There are multiple kinds of flying mounts, boats of different sizes, mounts of all different kinds. The gameplay is very sandboxy because you can go wherever you want without running on 'tracks' like the modern MMOs do. There are various areas to level at all times, and the first time you see a race from another continent it's kinda like "whoa." They're adding in AA's, I think exactly like EQ had them from my understanding. So you can get all of them instead of EQ2ish where you could just get a couple. This game truly is what EQ2 should have been, but it did not launch that way. Anyway, here are some awe-inspiring screenshots that I took as I leveled. There are raid bosses, Kotasoth being the last in the raid dungeon. There is one of my flying mount, and a few things I thought looked pretty cool. I put alt tags on them if you want to know what they are. I know this game has a bad past, but look past it and try it now, you won't be disappointed. http://www.joinvanguard.com/en/ <--- there's a free trial on the link called Isle of Dawn. I did it for the first time a few weeks ago and it was very fun and showed a lot of what the game has to offer.
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I think they have become stale because they are all about loot and end game. There is little to no character development. |
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People using WoW as a standard for MMORPG again. I am starting to think they are doing this intentionally. Only way I can use WoW as a standard for MMORPG would be because it is so mediocre that it stands right in the middle of the spectrum of current MMORPG industry. I don't hate WoW, but I am sorry, I just cannot see that game as anything more than average in both gameplay and design. (Yes, I played it, I am not so ill educated as to form an opinion on something I never experience) Please don't use the subscription number as proof about how good a game is. I am not the type to set myself on fire even if the whole world does it. (On the day that setting ourselves on fire becomes a good idea, then I'd do it, but only after everyone else) |
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SupderD
 Novice Member
Joined: 11/10/08
Life, left untouched, rewards. Death, left untouched, kills |
Originally posted by galad2003
When will people learn not to hail a MMO as the holy grail of MMO's until it is released? Have people not learned their lessons from the myriad of over-hyped, under-delivered games that have come out recently? Don't come crying to me when this game comes out and it is not what you expected. I'm not a Darkfall hater or troll I just have been in your shoes too many times where I thought a game would be the end-all-be-all and then it released, and while it may be a good game (or a bug filled POS in many cases) it couldn't live up to my expectations, because my expectations were so high nothing could. I'm just trying to save you some future pain man.
According to the darkfall fanboy code, you are a troll because you are disagreeing with a fanboy. it doesn't matter what the fanboy says, it is right, and you are wrong.
And to the OP. I agree. Games have become way to one dimnensional and they lack the RP of MMORPG. What I see now is a series of platform games that I am trying to make it through. And at the end, I guess I can go through and revisit content that I might have missed. This is not fun for me anymore. I want to play a game, and not have the "end" be the point. Leveling or skill progression should just sort of happen, not the goal. Now, the goal is to reach endgame to raid. Not enough RP.. just.. not enough. "Luckily I know that while you make nonsnese baiting threads that get locked....threads I make get sticked by the mods on this forum...." -imbant (greatest board warrior EVER) |
Originally posted by galad2003
When will people learn not to hail a MMO as the holy grail of MMO's until it is released? Have people not learned their lessons from the myriad of over-hyped, under-delivered games that have come out recently? Don't come crying to me when this game comes out and it is not what you expected. I'm not a Darkfall hater or troll I just have been in your shoes too many times where I thought a game would be the end-all-be-all and then it released, and while it may be a good game (or a bug filled POS in many cases) it couldn't live up to my expectations, because my expectations were so high nothing could. I'm just trying to save you some future pain man.
Darkfall is the holy grail it will become a legend mark my words±' |
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Originally posted by Evasia
Darkfall is the holy grail it will become a legend mark my words±'
Hype is over rated. Once something is release we will see. Till then it's piss and wind. |
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I have a lot of sympathy for darkfall fans. They are excited because their kind of dream design is being realized into a mmo- just the actual game might not deliver. I suspect it will be a Dark and Light but would be thrilled if it does turn out to be the bees knees(tm) |
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