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11/06/08 11:10:56 PM#151
Originally posted by deviliscious Being gay is a right, marriage is not, it is partcipating in a religion. It is a religous belief, if you don;t share those beliefs why the hell would you want to partcipate in this cruel narrowminded practice? BTW I am a woman lol. When taxes start being involved.. thats no longer purly in the realm of religion. As to the OP... come to CANADA. Legal marriage, happiness and rainbows!
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Finwe
 Novice Member
Joined: 7/15/03
All that is needed for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing. |
11/07/08 3:04:18 AM#152
Originally posted by Torak what exactly are you trying to tell us?
Originally posted by upallnight So now I don't have any ethics or morality? Do you see the hole you put us in?
I think you individually have an arbitrary set of morality/ethics. You claim to be a Christian, and say you believe what the Bible says about Yeshua the Annointed One dieing on the cross for your salvation of sin, but then in the same breadth say that you don't believe in all that "magic", and don't believe what the bible says about homosexuality. One man dieing for the sins of all others...Kind of defines magical doesn't it? Especially the part about him being raised from the dead...Wounds still in tact? That's ultra magic. At least 20th level cleric. "The greatest trick the devil played on humanity in the 20th century was convincing them that he didn't exist." (Paraphrasing) C.S. Lewis "If a mother can kill her own child, what is left before I kill you and you kill me?" -Mother Teresa when talking about abortion after accepting the Nobel Peace Prize in 1979 |
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11/07/08 3:09:09 AM#153
Originally posted by Munki When taxes start being involved.. thats no longer purly in the realm of religion. As to the OP... come to CANADA. Legal marriage, happiness and rainbows! Some people still think marriage has been invented by religion, which has never been proven. |
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11/07/08 5:15:26 AM#154
Originally posted by Finwe
Ok, but homosexuality is not a choice. Ethics have nothing to do with homosexuality any more then it's a moral or ethical choice of how tall you are. What is the "homosexual agenda"? To be treated no different then anyone else and not be discriminated against? Who has the moral issue here? The people who prevent that or the ones who want it? I think you need to go back and read some of that Bible you hold so dear. Nowhere in it does Jesus say to be intolerant and oppress those who are different from you and deny them equality. Although I don't believe in any religion Jesus was a pretty good guy who made a lot of sense. Its really a shame that religion has twisted his message of peace, love and tolerance into what it is today. At one time the Christians where the champions of the oppressed, not so much these days.
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Finwe
Novice Member
Joined: 7/15/03
All that is needed for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing. |
11/07/08 5:53:36 AM#155
Originally posted by Torak
Ok, but homosexuality is not a choice. Ethics have nothing to do with homosexuality any more then it's a moral or ethical choice of how tall you are. What is the "homosexual agenda"? To be treated no different then anyone else and not be discriminated against? Who has the moral issue here? The people who prevent that or the ones who want it? I think you need to go back and read some of that Bible you hold so dear. Nowhere in it does Jesus say to be intolerant and oppress those who are different from you and deny them equality. Although I don't believe in any religion Jesus was a pretty good guy who made a lot of sense. Its really a shame that religion has twisted his message of peace, love and tolerance into what it is today. At one time the Christians where the champions of the oppressed, not so much these days.
The practice of homosexuality IS a choice. I'm not going to debate whether homosexual urges are "born into a man" or not. I frankly don't know. Just as I don't know whether my angry outbursts as a child were something I was born with or not. But it was something that I struggled with my whole life(a bad temper), and through much control(And in some cases, chastisement from my folks), I overcame my bad temper, at least in the sense that if you met me, I'd come off as a very passive and non-threatening fellow. To allow my anger to control me, is a choice. Just as if allowing my hormones to control me in the sense of being unfaithful to the woman I'm committed to at this point in my life. I'm afflicted with lust towards some women, but I do not act on it, because I know it would be morally reprehensible. And yes, Jesus was a pretty tolerant guy...Unless you were an affront to his Father. See, it wasn't the "sinners" that followed after him that were the issue. Why? Because they followed after his righteousness. They changed their lives for him. "Go and sin no more". Were his words. He healed people not of just their physical afflictions, but of their spiritual afflictions, their sin. But you wouldn't want to piss him off. A good example was his righteous indignation at the synagogue. As Jesus himself said, "I have not come to destroy the law, but to fulfill it". And as many of his apostles/disciples reiterated, the morality and ethical laws of the old testament still held firm ground in post-Christ world. On a final note, we're all oppressed, we're all meant to be oppressed. If we weren't, we'd be animals. We're oppressed by ourselves, and our fellow men, it's called Law & Order. "The greatest trick the devil played on humanity in the 20th century was convincing them that he didn't exist." (Paraphrasing) C.S. Lewis "If a mother can kill her own child, what is left before I kill you and you kill me?" -Mother Teresa when talking about abortion after accepting the Nobel Peace Prize in 1979 |
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11/07/08 6:42:15 AM#156
What the hell finwe seriously? You are deluded or need a serious update in 21st century thinking! When did you choose to be straight? You didnt? Oh fancy that... we didnt choose to be gay either! How can you relate sexuality to anger? Thats ridiculous! Your hormones tell you to sleep with women... right? then you allow your hormones to control you?... your argument just said that you are really gay but dont allow yourself to sleep with men because that would be allowing your hormones to control you!! If your straight then technically you should be sleeping with men to not allow you hormones to control you!! Your whole previous post is a contradiction...
Here here Torak!!!! America was built on the ideology of freedom, its the America Dream, stereotypically the American dream is man, woman, 2 kids and a white picket fence. The American dream didnt form until around the late 1800's with the introduction of unions, fair pay and working hours and safe working conditions. This is when the ideology of freedom and liberty went kaput! This never ending strive to fulfill the impossible AMerican dream. Like the constitution states, there is a "separation of church and state" yet the first ammendment turned this all on its head. This is why the church is now involved in dicatating gay relationships. Made even harder by the fact marriage gives rights. Marriage should technically be a religious institution, but its not since there are tax and insurance benefits etc etc. This is why in England, as we dont allow gay marriage, we have civil partnerships and civil unions instead. Same rights (almost) as a married couple but are married by the state not religion instead. Proposition 8 completely contradicts the constitution, which contradicts everything people who voted for its beliefs. How can you vote for proposition 8 if you believe in American freemdom and liberty, if you did vote for it... you ARE a contradiction and you should be ashamed to call yourself an American. As for those who said gay people should not be allowed to adopt/have kids. Why not? Divorce is at a record high along with unplanned pregnancies, alot of kids have only one parent, either mother or father and alot get put up for adoption - if a gay couple come forward to adopt just one kid out of the system... isn't that a good thing? Isn't having 2 parents who love it soo much better than having just one or none at all, whether or not they are a gay couple? By saying no to adoption by gay couples you are ignoring the best interests of the child in your own selfsh, oppressive endeavour. YOU SHOULD BE ASHAMED!! As for the first post - in short... yes is the answer to all your questions... this has been dictated to us by prop 8. Hegemonically gay people deviate from the ideology we have been set in a capitalist society (i.e the American Dream) - this makes us BAD people because we are DIFFERENT.... the people are scared of those who are different... like we're going to bring about the apocolypse or something if we are given our freedom and liberty or that we will corrupt their economy with our wickedness and immorality. Welcome to America... the soceity of capitalist fat cats In my opinion, Obama is in the prime position to change the attitudes of people towards homosexuals for the better as he is now a revolutionary president. In the current scale of things, you are about 25 years off having a gay president!
( by a Living in England gay male!) |
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11/07/08 8:57:24 AM#157
Originally posted by mark90_2k2
Well I'm a patriot and a veteren. I believe in the idealism that our country stand for, I have fought for it. It doesn't matter to me whether you are homosexual, black, asian, green or purple. Equality and Freedom is what concerns me. I can not tolerate that people would oppress their fellow countrymen in a place that was founded on freedoms. (As much as you can have in a civilization) The people who try to oppress should be ashamed not me, I am a patriot to those ideals. Unfortunately some need to fight harder then others for their freedoms. Its not a fight that can not be won as recent events have more then proven. Prop 8 is a temp setback for these folks but the fight is probably not over by a long shot. Will it ever be perfect? No, but its better then the alternitive.
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qazyman
 Gurista
Joined: 10/04/06
A Good Sandbox isn't about your characters abilities; It's about the players ability. |
11/07/08 9:17:06 AM#158
Originally posted by Finwe
Every time I hear this I can't help but think of penicillin. For centuries plagues and epidemics ravaged society. Then one day a scientist produces a drug and the death rates for these types of disease's plummet. Almost like magic. |
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11/07/08 9:29:58 AM#159
This is a great read:
An Ever So Modest Proposal. Joseph Smith In response to the ever-reasonable Proposition 8 in California, which restored TRADITIONAL marriage as it has been defined for thousands of years (and was mostly funded by the Mormon Church of Latter Day Saints), I hereby call upon teh gays to promote the equally reasonable and Jesusesque "Proposition P", which would restore TRADITIONAL prophets, as THEY have been defined for thousands of years. Proposition P, or The Defense of Religious Leaders Who Did Not Wear Magical Underwear, would change the California constitution so that only prophets identified and revered BEFORE 1820 would be recognized. * JeffLieber's diary :: :: Once Proposition P is law, any non-traditional prophets... say ones that claimed they could find gold by putting stones in a white stovepipe hat or who, for years, promoted the practice of polygamy... would be devalued as second-class and believers in these modern, substandard prophets would not be allowed to claim their values as valid as those who believe in, like, totally REAL God. Look, I'm NOT trying to make these immoral and shameful new believers feel BADLY about themselves, but TRADITION dictates one homogeneous world-view and I'm worried what it says about MY prophet if any self-interested, outcast in Pennsylvania can wander into the woods and claim to have heard the word of God. And then there's the children? What will happen to the little one's blind adherence to my totally random, but much OLDER belief system, if they are forced to consider someone else's equally random, but much more RECENT, system of morality derived through fear of damnation and haphazardly concocted bogeymen? Can we really take the chance that some "teacher" pushing an "agenda" of "tolerance" might suggest these "other prophets" are anything more than amoral bacteria-sacks? No! TRADITIONAL PROPHETS are the way it has always been done... always being defined as at least a couple thousand years, before which we had the PRE-TRADITIONAL Gods and Prophets Like Zeus and Vishnu, who we should also probably get around to outlawing and belittling at some point. Look, if none of the above is compelling, consider this: We must pass The Defense of Prophets Act, if for no other reason than to ensure that gay people, who have existed since the beginning of humanity, won't find themselves being bullied by a religion which postdates penicillin... and the steam engine... and the merkin. Proposition P: because every hateful act of spite deserves and equally irrational response. |
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11/07/08 9:41:13 AM#160
To sum it up OP (sorry if someone already said this but not reading all 160 posts) But to sum it up, people who voted against it are just afraid of what they dont understand. Its the way people are for some reason. I try to explain why i don't care if gays get married to one of my co-workers and his reply is he doesn't care that people are gay but why do they have to get married. My reply was well why do you have to get married. but the co-worker just didn't want to hear it because well he just didn't understand. One day the people will understand but sorry gay people i know you guys are religious and some not but religion is your biggest enemy and well its the enemy of alot discussions but dumb people like to cling to there so called religious views which is retarded. |
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11/07/08 11:27:07 AM#161
Gay Christian is a contradiction. I don't have any problem with gays, but plenty of problems with Christians. And plenty more problems with gay Christians. The Bible is pretty clear on homosexuality. Gays just need to realize that it's a silly, opressive religion and convince these people that are using this book to justify their hatred of homosexuals instead of implicitly supporting them by praising the same god. 
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11/07/08 11:35:59 AM#162
Originally posted by Finwe
Just wanted to add a couple of points to this:
1 John 3:4 - "Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness."
In other words, sin is defined in the new testament as not keeping the law (commandments of the old testament). Yeshua's forgiveness of the woman in John 8:11 was not unconditional... he told her to sin no more (stop being disobedient to the law) in the same sentence. Even Romans 6, of which typical Christians love to take verse 14 out of context in order to justify not keeping the old testament, states that we are not to continue in sin (disobedience to the law). The forgiveness and grace that come from Yeshua's sacrifice were for a reason... they empower us to be obedient, and allow us forgiveness when we screw up IF we repent. The new testament is very clear that just believing that Yeshua died for your sins is not all that's involved in being a follower.
One thing people tend not to realize is that Yeshua was a Jewish Rabbi. He would not have been accepted as such in His society if His teaching was contrary to the Torah (law). He also would not have been qualified to be the sacrifice for our sins if He had broken a single commandment in his lifetime.
Anyway, I know that was a bit off-topic for this thread, but Finwe and Deviliscious were right to question how someone could claim to be a follower of Christ, and consciously choose a lifestyle that was contrary to His teaching.
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11/07/08 11:40:51 AM#163
What do *I* want "you" gays to do? I want you to live, be happy, be free, marry whom you want, and live long and prosper. Oh, and I happen to also be a Christian. Why did you have to phrase the question as if everyone was against you? The fact is the thing passed by narrow margin. Many people support you -- I certainly do, but I don't live in California. This once again shows why constitutionally limited government is superior to direct democracy. Tyranny of the majority is as bad as tyranny of the oligarchy. It is time for Liberty. |
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DailyBuzz
 Guide
Joined: 9/25/07
Hey guys, I broke this...anyone know how to fix it? |
11/07/08 1:02:44 PM#164
Originally posted by Mylon
Discriminate much?
While some christians believe that homosexuality is a sin, others do not. They are both christians, they just prescribe to different interpretations of the bible, which is understandable. Some christians believe that smoking marijuana is a sin, others do not. Again, it's open to interpretation. See where this is going? For nearly every "sin" a christian denounces through scripture, there is also scripture to contradict that denouncement. Face it, christianity is a religion based on inconsistency (as are most religions). You cannot blame those who pass the scripture through their own personal filter. You will agree with some, and not with others. But, you cannot disagree with all christians all the time. With such a wide range of interpretations, it's literally impossible.
The limits of Jesus' love is immeasurable. It is so grand, in fact, that all factions of christianity want to bind their beliefs to his message. They want to marginalize his teachings with their movement. In doing so, many have lost the spirit of the message itself, which is not one of division, oppression, and judgment, but of inclusion, acceptance, and forgiveness. |
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11/07/08 1:07:10 PM#165
Originally posted by DailyBuzz
Discriminate much?
While some christians believe that homosexuality is a sin, others do not. They are both christians, they just prescribe to different interpretations of the bible, which is understandable. Some christians believe that smoking marijuana is a sin, others do not. Again, it's open to interpretation. See where this is going? For nearly every "sin" a christian denounces through scripture, there is also scripture to contradict that denouncement. Face it, christianity is a religion based on inconsistency (as are most religions). You cannot blame those who pass the scripture through their own personal filter. You will agree with some, and not with others. But, you cannot disagree with all christians all the time. With such a wide range of interpretations, it's literally impossible. The limits of Jesus' love is immeasurable. It is so grand, in fact, that all factions of christianity want to bind their beliefs to his message. They want to marginalize his teachings with their movement. In doing so, many have lost the spirit of the message itself, which is not one of division, oppression, and judgment, but of inclusion, acceptance, and forgiveness. I don't see how the fact that the book is an incomprehensible muddle that even the true believers who think its the word of God can't understand is being brought up as a good thing here. Jesus' love is pretty limited - the man died a long time ago, if he ever really existed in the first place. As for what people have done in his name, well, that hasn't exactly been the most loving record. If you have an airplane design that keeps getting built, blowing up, and killing everyone involved, after a few such explosions you stop blaming the people building the airplane, and start blaming the design. I'd say Christianity has more than a few such explosions in its history. Maybe the fact that its incomprehensible and can be read however you want isn't as good as all that? In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own. -Thomas Jefferson |
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11/07/08 1:08:55 PM#166
Originally posted by DailyBuzz
Discriminate much?
While some christians believe that homosexuality is a sin, others do not. They are both christians, they just prescribe to different interpretations of the bible, which is understandable. Some christians believe that smoking marijuana is a sin, others do not. Again, it's open to interpretation. See where this is going? For nearly every "sin" a christian denounces through scripture, there is also scripture to contradict that denouncement. Face it, christianity is a religion based on inconsistency (as are most religions). You cannot blame those who pass the scripture through their own personal filter. You will agree with some, and not with others. But, you cannot disagree with all christians all the time. With such a wide range of interpretations, it's literally impossible.
The limits of Jesus' love is immeasurable. It is so grand, in fact, that all factions of christianity want to bind their beliefs to his message. They want to marginalize his teachings with their movement. In doing so, many have lost the spirit of the message itself, which is not one of division, oppression, and judgment, but of inclusion, acceptance, and forgiveness.
Amen. |
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11/07/08 1:28:52 PM#167
The Flying Spaghetti Monster is the grandest being there is. So grand, in fact, that he created all that you see today and gave us spaghetti, in his image, to celebrate his noodliness. He doesn't ask for much, but those that revere and respect him shall be awareded eternal life in the presence of the almighty beer volcano with him. Ramen.
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DailyBuzz
Guide
Joined: 9/25/07
Hey guys, I broke this...anyone know how to fix it? |
11/07/08 2:15:44 PM#168
Originally posted by Sharajat
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11/07/08 2:47:20 PM#169
I've been craving a good theology debate in a while, so how about it... You say that you interpret the message to mean inclusion, acceptance, and forgiveness. What about people that are walking down an unrighteous path? The Bible lays out a pretty long list of sins. Jesus didn't say they're all okay now. And, what happens to sinners? Well, a terrible and eternal fate. To allow someone to continue walking down that path and not step in and try and set them straight (bad pun) would be a great offense to your fellow man, turning them away in the tiny window they have in this life to save them from eternal damnation. To accept a sinner for what they are would be awful thing indeed, because you give them temporary comfort in this life but turn away and leave them to their eternal fate. Many may not know how to respond to such sinners, and most shun them to try and isolate themselves in case they catch the sin, resulting in much of what we see now. But there is a reason they are not readily accepted, and that is because that would be encouraged on their sinning path, and being partly responsible for an eternal fate is the same as being fully responsible, due to its infinite nature. Christianity is a scary thing.
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DailyBuzz
Guide
Joined: 9/25/07
Hey guys, I broke this...anyone know how to fix it? |
11/07/08 3:37:03 PM#170
Originally posted by Mylon
Yes, I could sense your "craving a good theology debate" from your last post about the flying spaghetti monster.
If you want a theology debate, you'd be better served addressing someone who believes in god. I'm an agnostic. My views of Jesus are not of a divine nature. I observe his actions and deeds from a human perspective. |
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11/07/08 4:03:41 PM#171
Oh, well if you're a philosophy, not a theologian, then I guess that makes things different. I'd say there's better sources of moral guidance other than the very indirect methods of the gospels, though.
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porgie
 Novice Member
Joined: 11/18/05
SCULLY: What do you think? MULDER: I can''t believe how much faith we put in machines. |
11/07/08 6:52:42 PM#172
Originally posted by Finwe
I think you individually have an arbitrary set of morality/ethics. You claim to be a Christian, and say you believe what the Bible says about Yeshua the Annointed One dieing on the cross for your salvation of sin, but then in the same breadth say that you don't believe in all that "magic", and don't believe what the bible says about homosexuality. One man dieing for the sins of all others...Kind of defines magical doesn't it? Especially the part about him being raised from the dead...Wounds still in tact? That's ultra magic. At least 20th level cleric. I understood what he was saying completely. Ever heard of Jefferson's Bible? He was pretty Unitarian (like myself) and separated the works of Jesus from the magic stories in the Bible. He was a wise man, that Jefferson. ----------------------- |
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porgie
Novice Member
Joined: 11/18/05
SCULLY: What do you think? MULDER: I can''t believe how much faith we put in machines. |
11/07/08 6:54:47 PM#173
Originally posted by Torak
Ok, but homosexuality is not a choice. Ethics have nothing to do with homosexuality any more then it's a moral or ethical choice of how tall you are. What is the "homosexual agenda"? To be treated no different then anyone else and not be discriminated against? Who has the moral issue here? The people who prevent that or the ones who want it? I think you need to go back and read some of that Bible you hold so dear. Nowhere in it does Jesus say to be intolerant and oppress those who are different from you and deny them equality. Although I don't believe in any religion Jesus was a pretty good guy who made a lot of sense. Its really a shame that religion has twisted his message of peace, love and tolerance into what it is today. At one time the Christians where the champions of the oppressed, not so much these days.
There is a story in the Bible where Jesus heals a Roman soldiers male lover. If he were against homosexuality, I think he would have said something at that event to make his statement clear. But he didn't. So, I imagine to him, it really made no difference about what kind of love he saw, just that he saw love. ----------------------- |
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11/07/08 6:58:08 PM#174
Originally posted by porgie
What evidence is there that it was a male love thing?
I think Jesus is silent on homosexuality, pro or against.
I am curious, though, and would appreciate an answer to my first question; this is what happens when I do not go out on Friday nights. I ask questions. |
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11/07/08 7:07:02 PM#175
Yeah, and one could quote all other parts of the bible to point out the anti-gay parts. The one implicit approval doesn't do much against all of the explicit disapprovals. But then again, the Bible is a work used to justify lots of hateful things and should be tossed altogether.
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