www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/show/all/sCol/rankHype/sOrder/desc

This site is loosing it's credibility as far as gamerating is concerned...

Something like this has been mentioned recently...

Here's a few posts related to such a thing from Stradden:

6.0 review note, Age Of Crap?

Age of Conan: Age of Conan Review

Star Wars Galaxies: Five Year Re-Review

and then of course there's the F.A.Q.

... not that I ever paid attention to scores anyways. Anyone who is loving their game and having fun in it isn't going to waste their time to come here to vote. *Points at WoWs ranking*

You make it sound like this site EVER had any credibility as far as "rankings" or "reviews" go.

Yea I know the rankings are rather doubtful to begin with, but I now count some 40 UNRELEASED games at the top?? Only beat by Warhammer. They used to be some halfway down the list or more.

Originally posted by Inzra

Yea I know the rankings are rather doubtful to begin with, but I now count some 40 UNRELEASED games at the top?? Only beat by Warhammer. They used to be some halfway down the list or more.

Aside fromt he fact that the list is not an indication of how good a game is, the next issue with the list is that it doesnt separate the ranking between released and unreleased and simply mashes em together and differentiates em using only a color.

Hype numbers tend to always be higher than released game ratings so thats why you see that many unreleased games ranking much higher than released games.....cuz the list is done by rating/hype together.

Once some of those games are released youll see them drop in rankings like a fly.

I think MMORPG are playing with the numbers; as for what reason who knows..I have seen those numbers switch so many times you cant trust them anymore..Not saying i ever did..haha

Yeah I was wondering WTF was going on with the stie a week or so ago. I saw all the games in development jump up to 8.41 or whatnot. But when you click on the game link it still shows the rating of 6 and some change.  That same night I saw all the latest posts change to like 57minutes was the last post.  I was begining to think maybe the site was hacked or something, so who knows.

About a week or two ago we decided to apply the same curve algorythm to the hype scores (for unreleased games) that we have always had for released games.  We did this for the same reason - all the scores were at 4-6 and frankly it is boring and hard to tell them apart. 

Using our positive-only curve (meaning all games get more points than before with those at the top getting more) we are able to spread out or "zoom" into the scores.

The hype values of each game are still completely determined by user voting, just like our release games scores.

I wrote a detailed explanation of this in this FAQ item:

http://www.mmorpg.com/faq.cfm/showFaq/15

The other thing mentioned about the posts going back in time on Sunday is this neat little thing called "Daylight Saving Time" which instantly rolled our servers back 1 hour. Yikes!

 Edit: I would also note that sorting the entire list and looking at the scores is not really a good perspective.  I would first start with just "Released Games" or "Games in Development" by using the left menu on the game list.  You can't really compare hypes to ratings - they are totally different scoring systems...and really, most people have never played a game when they "hype" it - that is why we call it HYPE

Originally posted by Admin

About a week or two ago we decided to apply the same curve algorythm to the hype scores (for unreleased games) that we have always had for released games.  We did this for the same reason - all the scores were at 4-6 and frankly it is boring and hard to tell them apart. 

Using our positive-only curve (meaning all games get more points than before with those at the top getting more) we are able to spread out or "zoom" into the scores.

The hype values of each game are still completely determined by user voting, just like our release games scores.

I wrote a detailed explanation of this in this FAQ item:

http://www.mmorpg.com/faq.cfm/showFaq/15

The other thing mentioned about the posts going back in time on Sunday is this neat little thing called "Daylight Saving Time" which instantly rolled our servers back 1 hour. Yikes!

 

Oh yeah It was DLST, I totally forgot that it could have done that to the servers. Goes to show how much I pay attention sometimes. lol

Just instead of 4-6 you get all 8s >.> whoopie

Originally posted by Hashbrick

Just instead of 4-6 you get all 8s >.> whoopie

Not actually true.  Assume you had these scores:

3.5
4.0
4.5
5.5
6.0
6.5

After the curve you would have:

4.41
5.04
5.67
6.93
7.56
8.25

Sure if 10 games were all 6.5 before they will all be 8.25 now, but when you look at all 100+ games in development you see a big spreading taking place.

Let's face it - anger outweighs joy when it comes to this community.  Using a positive-only curve helps bring these scores back into reality.  Setting hype aside, if we did not have the curve on the released games no game would have a score higher than about 6.2 - which I don't think that is very accurate that no MMORPG has earned better than a "C" grade.

 

Originally posted by Admin

About a week or two ago we decided to apply the same curve algorythm to the hype scores (for unreleased games) that we have always had for released games.  We did this for the same reason - all the scores were at 4-6 and frankly it is boring and hard to tell them apart. 

Using our positive-only curve (meaning all games get more points than before with those at the top getting more) we are able to spread out or "zoom" into the scores.

The hype values of each game are still completely determined by user voting, just like our release games scores.

I wrote a detailed explanation of this in this FAQ item:

http://www.mmorpg.com/faq.cfm/showFaq/15

The other thing mentioned about the posts going back in time on Sunday is this neat little thing called "Daylight Saving Time" which instantly rolled our servers back 1 hour. Yikes!

 Edit: I would also note that sorting the entire list and looking at the scores is not really a good perspective.  I would first start with just "Released Games" or "Games in Development" by using the left menu on the game list.  You can't really compare hypes to ratings - they are totally different scoring systems...and really, most people have never played a game when they "hype" it - that is why we call it HYPE

I have a question.

All your algorithm is doing is multiplying each and every score by a certain number. 

My question is; why bother? 

Your FAQ says to make things more "funner", but this is not a reason.  Numbers are not made more 'fun' by being bigger, not unless we're talking about bra-size.   In fact this screwing around with figures makes the figures rather misleading, because games are ranked on a scale of 10.

If you just want to see a more pronouced difference between games, just add an extra decimal point to the final rating.   By screwing around with the figures you are making the data less indicative of what people are actually ranking.  If a game is ranked 6.5, and the game below it is ranked 6.45, and the game below that 6.4 or even 6.44... so what?  Isn't data integrity better than doing plastic surgery on it?  You lose information when you do this, specifically, what the average rankings people give are.

I have a second question:  What other psuedo-mathematics are you applying to your results to make them more "funner" before you apply the multiplication on the final result.  Are you selectively excluding certain kinds of rankings?  What mathematics are you using to do this, it would be interesting to see what is actually going on in the background, because I think your figures are bullshit, to be perfectly blunt.

Your ratings are completely out of sync with every other gaming rating site on the planet.  And this not just because this is a specialized site, there are other MMORPG only sites, or sites with MMORPG sections, and their ratings at least seem similar to each other.

Does advertising affect your ratings?  Are there any other little 'nudges' you give to your ratings?  I'm not being paranoid, I am simply deducing from your lack of respect for statistics, you're probably screwing something else up too, probably by accident.

Think i'm full of myself?  I'd love for you to explain to the class why your rankings aren't worthless.  That would be fun, I think.

Originally posted by Recant

Originally posted by Admin

About a week or two ago we decided to apply the same curve algorythm to the hype scores (for unreleased games) that we have always had for released games.  We did this for the same reason - all the scores were at 4-6 and frankly it is boring and hard to tell them apart. 

Using our positive-only curve (meaning all games get more points than before with those at the top getting more) we are able to spread out or "zoom" into the scores.

The hype values of each game are still completely determined by user voting, just like our release games scores.

I wrote a detailed explanation of this in this FAQ item:

http://www.mmorpg.com/faq.cfm/showFaq/15

The other thing mentioned about the posts going back in time on Sunday is this neat little thing called "Daylight Saving Time" which instantly rolled our servers back 1 hour. Yikes!

 Edit: I would also note that sorting the entire list and looking at the scores is not really a good perspective.  I would first start with just "Released Games" or "Games in Development" by using the left menu on the game list.  You can't really compare hypes to ratings - they are totally different scoring systems...and really, most people have never played a game when they "hype" it - that is why we call it HYPE

 

I have a question.

All your algorithm is doing is multiplying each and every score by a certain number. 

My question is; why bother? 

Your FAQ says to make things more "funner", but this is not a reason.  Numbers are not made more 'fun' by being bigger, not unless we're talking about bra-size.   In fact this screwing around with figures makes the figures rather misleading, because games are ranked on a scale of 10.

If you just want to see a more pronouced difference between games, just add an extra decimal point to the final rating.   By screwing around with the figures you are making the data less indicative of what people are actually ranking.  If a game is ranked 6.5, and the game below it is ranked 6.45, and the game below that 6.4 or even 6.44... so what?  Isn't data integrity better than doing plastic surgery on it?  You lose information when you do this, specifically, what the average rankings people give are.

I have a second question:  What other psuedo-mathematics are you applying to your results to make them more "funner" before you apply the multiplication on the final result.  Are you selectively excluding certain kinds of rankings?  What mathematics are you using to do this, it would be interesting to see what is actually going on in the background, because I think your figures are bullshit, to be perfectly blunt.

Your ratings are completely out of sync with every other gaming rating site on the planet.  And this not just because this is a specialized site, there are other MMORPG only sites, or sites with MMORPG sections, and their ratings at least seem similar to each other.

Does advertising affect your ratings?  Are there any other little 'nudges' you give to your ratings?  I'm not being paranoid, I am simply deducing from your lack of respect for statistics, you're probably screwing something else up too, probably by accident.

Think i'm full of myself?  I'd love for you to explain to the class why your rankings aren't worthless.  That would be fun, I think.

Well, you are entitled to your opinion.  However, we feel this makes the scores better.

a) the FAQ I linked explains *all* the math used to curve the scores.  It is simple and being a multiplier it effects high scores more than low scores to it just does not make them all bigger, it extends the range from the high to the low.  It is not always the same multiplier, that multiplier is determined by how far away the top score is from 10.  If a game actually has a 9.0 the curve is almost nil.

b) other websites use curves, they might just not be as honest about it as we are.  A good example of a site that uses curves and is up front about it is IMDB (Internet Movie Database).

c) of course advertising does not affect ratings, but thanks for the insult to our team and my own personal integrity.  There are absolutely no nudges, the curve algorythm is old and been part of this site since 2001. 

d) we already have decimal places out 2 points.  I think a 3rd decimal place will not help much.

Originally posted by Admin

Originally posted by Recant

Originally posted by Admin

About a week or two ago we decided to apply the same curve algorythm to the hype scores (for unreleased games) that we have always had for released games.  We did this for the same reason - all the scores were at 4-6 and frankly it is boring and hard to tell them apart. 

Using our positive-only curve (meaning all games get more points than before with those at the top getting more) we are able to spread out or "zoom" into the scores.

The hype values of each game are still completely determined by user voting, just like our release games scores.

I wrote a detailed explanation of this in this FAQ item:

http://www.mmorpg.com/faq.cfm/showFaq/15

The other thing mentioned about the posts going back in time on Sunday is this neat little thing called "Daylight Saving Time" which instantly rolled our servers back 1 hour. Yikes!

 Edit: I would also note that sorting the entire list and looking at the scores is not really a good perspective.  I would first start with just "Released Games" or "Games in Development" by using the left menu on the game list.  You can't really compare hypes to ratings - they are totally different scoring systems...and really, most people have never played a game when they "hype" it - that is why we call it HYPE

 

I have a question.

All your algorithm is doing is multiplying each and every score by a certain number. 

My question is; why bother? 

Your FAQ says to make things more "funner", but this is not a reason.  Numbers are not made more 'fun' by being bigger, not unless we're talking about bra-size.   In fact this screwing around with figures makes the figures rather misleading, because games are ranked on a scale of 10.

If you just want to see a more pronouced difference between games, just add an extra decimal point to the final rating.   By screwing around with the figures you are making the data less indicative of what people are actually ranking.  If a game is ranked 6.5, and the game below it is ranked 6.45, and the game below that 6.4 or even 6.44... so what?  Isn't data integrity better than doing plastic surgery on it?  You lose information when you do this, specifically, what the average rankings people give are.

I have a second question:  What other psuedo-mathematics are you applying to your results to make them more "funner" before you apply the multiplication on the final result.  Are you selectively excluding certain kinds of rankings?  What mathematics are you using to do this, it would be interesting to see what is actually going on in the background, because I think your figures are bullshit, to be perfectly blunt.

Your ratings are completely out of sync with every other gaming rating site on the planet.  And this not just because this is a specialized site, there are other MMORPG only sites, or sites with MMORPG sections, and their ratings at least seem similar to each other.

Does advertising affect your ratings?  Are there any other little 'nudges' you give to your ratings?  I'm not being paranoid, I am simply deducing from your lack of respect for statistics, you're probably screwing something else up too, probably by accident.

Think i'm full of myself?  I'd love for you to explain to the class why your rankings aren't worthless.  That would be fun, I think.

 

Well, you are entitled to your opionion.  However, we feel this makes the scores better.

a) the FAQ I linked explains *all* the math used to curve the scores.  It is simple and being a multiplier it effects high scores more than low scores to it just does not make them all bigger, it extends the range from the high to the low.  It is not always the same multiplier, that multiplier is determined by how far away the top score is from 10.  If a game actually has a 9.0 the curve is almost nil.

b) other websites use curves, they might just not be as honest about it as we are.  A good example of a site that uses curves and is up front about it is IMDB (Internet Movie Database).

c) of course advertising does not affect ratings, but thanks for the insult to our team and my own personal integrity.  There are absolutely no nudges, the curve algorythm is old and been part of this site since 2001. 

d) we already have decimal places out 2 points.  I think a 3rd decimal place will not help much.

 

How does it make the scores "better"?   You present them like they're ratings out of 10, but they're not, instead it's a score out of 13 or so.  How is this "better"?  Sure, they'll still be in the right order, but that's about the only thing that's kept intact.

You say you're entitled to my opinion, but the fact is I do not have an opinion on how you choose to handle your rankings.  I have a concern that your rankings are false and misleading. 

a) Yes I understand that the number you multply by changes, if I didn't understand that, I would have asked why you multiply by a specific number.   If the curve is smaller at the top, why have a curve at all?  Why is it important to scew the results of the lesser rated games more than the ones nearer the top?   Shouldn't it be a straight line, at least that makes more sense.  If you were worried about the differences between scores, then you change your scale, you do not do... whatever it is you're trying to do with your curve.

b) IMDB does NOT do it the same way you do, they're using real statistics, not the god-awful attempts at math that you're using to screw around with the figures so that you get something that you think looks nice, but would have my old maths tutor rolling in her grave, presuming of course that she's dead, she was pretty old back then.

The formula for calculating the Top Rated Titles gives a true Bayesian estimate:

weighted rating (WR) = (v ÷ (v+m)) × R + (m ÷ (v+m)) × C

where:
R = average for the movie (mean) = (Rating)
v = number of votes for the movie = (votes)
m = minimum votes required to be listed in the Top (currently )
C = the mean vote across the whole report (currently )
 

Your method is irrational and inaccurate, and should be used for plotting points on a graph for trends only, not showing raw rankings.  Do you actually have a reason for applying this bizarre and utterly pointless "algorithm" onto your figures or are you sticking to your "fun" excuse?

c) Oh don't be a wet blanket.  I was not insulting you, I was asking a perfectly legitimate question.

d)  The extra decimal place is not for how you deal with your current rankings, but if you return the rankings to mathematical normalcy, and if you were concerned about seeing a more pronounced difference, the extra decimal place would help.

And my question pertaining to what else you do with these figures, does not pertain to the FAQ you linked.  I'm asking what statistical functions you're applying to the data, such as the one IMDB uses, to measure the 'quality' of ratings.  It's these ones I'm actually more concerned about, because these will affect the actual order of the games, and given the way you are handling how you display ratings, I am not confident that you're doing this correctly.

Of course I could be wrong, so the formula you give can shut me up, or we could find something we can look at and fix.   Or at least the raw data. Because I don't think your ratings are particularly indicative of anything at the moment. 

Statistically speaking, your rankings are completely different from every other game rankings site on the planet, which means, statistically speaking, that there's the possibility that something is wrong.  There are of course other possible explanations - such as people ranking are of a narrow demographic - but like I said before, you are not the only MMORPG site.  It's actually fine to be completely different, but I don't think the current rankings are right, at all, even given the extreme opinions that people that tend to visit this site have.

I think you're doing it all wrong.  You can say this is opinion and you would be correct, but if you tell us what functions you are applying, there can be no debate.  Well actually, there can, because there's hundreds of different ways to transform data to make it more meaningful, but there are plenty of occasions where people apply the wrong functions to the wrong situations and interpret the data wrong.

Which is what I think is happening here.

So what functions / formula / algortithm / "fun" are you using to determine the quality of votes, and how are you using that to determine the ranking order?  (I prefer to use the word vote, because in this scenario it's probably more accurate, but that's another debate)

I smell shennigans with the rating system regardless a week ago Atlantica was number 2 ( a F2P game??? come on that dont even sound right...) and Aion at top knocking out Star Wars from the top spot a bigger well known IP (Star Wars) to some 3rd rate Korean grinder with wings? I think advertisement has something to do with the way ratings are affected here. And of course all the pathetic people making more than one account to deype someone's game...and hype thiers...

All I can say is, I don't think this voting system would have been approved at a presidental election...

I understand that voters sometimes have their own agenda, but at least it would be a fair reflection of them if you simply let 1 vote be 1 vote, and rank accordingly.

With the first 10-20 votes the ranking would bounce around a bit on the list, but it would stabilize with more votes. If you want excitement, you'd have it with the first votes.

I also thinks it's a bad idea to have a released game start at the top, - it should earn it's place there, not automatically be put there to slowly fall.

This ranking system reminds me of the pampering that goes on in mmo's, - gotta protect the games, gotta protect the players.... THAT'S why it gets boring...

IMO anyway.

Originally posted by Admin

Well, you are entitled to your opinion.  However, we feel this makes the scores better.

a) the FAQ I linked explains *all* the math...

I have seen it said several times that people shouldn't pay attention to ratings because it's not a good way to judge a game. You also said anger outweighs joy when it comes to this community therefore the ratings tend to be lower. I agree with both, but why have them if it's encouraged to not view them.

The Most Popular tab on the front page would be good to keep since nothing can effect it, but I'd suggest on doing away with anything that require votes. Like I said before ratings aren't that accurate anyways since people who are enjoying their game won't waste their time on voting for it unless they are fanbois.

Not that I believe it bothers the administrators much, but it would do away with the majority of accusations for being "corrupt" as well.

Originally posted by Admin

Let's face it - anger outweighs joy when it comes to this community. 
 

Sad but true.

Originally posted by firefly2003

Aion at top knocking out Star Wars from the top spot a bigger well known IP (Star Wars) to some 3rd rate Korean grinder with wings?

Or a game that has been in development for a long while and has gained a loyal following versus a very recently announced game that has caused a LOT of controversy. Not really that strange when you think about it.

Originally posted by firefly2003

I smell shennigans with the rating system regardless a week ago Atlantica was number 2 ( a F2P game??? come on that dont even sound right...) and Aion at top knocking out Star Wars from the top spot a bigger well known IP (Star Wars) to some 3rd rate Korean grinder with wings? I think advertisement has something to do with the way ratings are affected here. And of course all the pathetic people making more than one account to deype someone's game...and hype thiers...

Let's see...

Aion: Best game of the show award on PAX by mmorpg.com reporter.

Aion: Coming with a huge budget from the company who had supremacy on the market before blizzard jumped in.

Aion: Experienced company behind, with more than 10 years in the MMORPG industry.

Aion: Entering open beta in Korea on November's 11th.

Aion: Many european/american players have already tested the game by themselves

Aion: Hundreds of player made videos on youtube.

Aion: Went through mass organized dehypes from certain communities.

Aion: Got a 90% on mmozine.com, highest score ever there for a game on development.

If it's at the top, it's because it's well deserved, whether you like it or not.

I think they should have just left it alone, Ratings seemed fine to me before WAR came out If they would have implemented it before it came out it would have been rated like a 9 and some change. Once WAR released hype ratings dropped like bricks IMHO a bunch of new DF fans started to join this site. Darkfall yas almost 4k votes while other games on the top 5 have 1-3k votes.  

Originally posted by Ephimero

Originally posted by firefly2003

I smell shennigans with the rating system regardless a week ago Atlantica was number 2 ( a F2P game??? come on that dont even sound right...) and Aion at top knocking out Star Wars from the top spot a bigger well known IP (Star Wars) to some 3rd rate Korean grinder with wings? I think advertisement has something to do with the way ratings are affected here. And of course all the pathetic people making more than one account to deype someone's game...and hype thiers...

 

Let's see...

Aion: Best game of the show award on PAX by mmorpg.com reporter.

Aion: Coming with a huge budget from the company who had supremacy on the market before blizzard jumped in.

Aion: Experienced company behind, with more than 10 years in the MMORPG industry.

Aion: Entering open beta in Korea on November's 11th.

Aion: Many european/american players have already tested the game by themselves

Aion: Hundreds of player made videos on youtube.

Aion: Went through mass organized dehypes from certain communities.

Aion: Got a 90% on mmozine.com, highest score ever there for a game on development.

 

If it's at the top, it's because it's well deserved, whether you like it or not.

Through the years I've watched that list I can't ever remember any unreleased game being at top ten, and now theres suddenly 9 of them??

So nope I don't think Aion deserves it at all. At least not this way.

The point is btw that it's not just Aion, but 40 other games as well.

Originally posted by Inzra

Originally posted by Ephimero

Originally posted by firefly2003

I smell shennigans with the rating system regardless a week ago Atlantica was number 2 ( a F2P game??? come on that dont even sound right...) and Aion at top knocking out Star Wars from the top spot a bigger well known IP (Star Wars) to some 3rd rate Korean grinder with wings? I think advertisement has something to do with the way ratings are affected here. And of course all the pathetic people making more than one account to deype someone's game...and hype thiers...

 

Let's see...

Aion: Best game of the show award on PAX by mmorpg.com reporter.

Aion: Coming with a huge budget from the company who had supremacy on the market before blizzard jumped in.

Aion: Experienced company behind, with more than 10 years in the MMORPG industry.

Aion: Entering open beta in Korea on November's 11th.

Aion: Many european/american players have already tested the game by themselves

Aion: Hundreds of player made videos on youtube.

Aion: Went through mass organized dehypes from certain communities.

Aion: Got a 90% on mmozine.com, highest score ever there for a game on development.

 

If it's at the top, it's because it's well deserved, whether you like it or not.

 

Through the years I've watched that list I can't ever remember any unreleased game being at top ten, and now theres suddenly 9 of them??

So nope I don't think Aion deserves it at all. At least not this way.

The point is btw that it's not just Aion, but 40 other games as well.

There's a difference between "hype" and "rate". I hyped WAR with a 8, I rated it with a 6,2.

Originally posted by firefly2003

I smell shennigans with the rating system regardless a week ago Atlantica was number 2 ( a F2P game??? come on that dont even sound right...) and Aion at top knocking out Star Wars from the top spot a bigger well known IP (Star Wars) to some 3rd rate Korean grinder with wings? I think advertisement has something to do with the way ratings are affected here. And of course all the pathetic people making more than one account to deype someone's game...and hype thiers...

Well SWTOR is a cheap copy of EQ and planning on being same as wow so it deserves to be lower then is cheap asian grinder(witch is not entirely true)at leasta high quality game like darkfall is at the top 5 sometimes even number 1 where it should be:)

Originally posted by Evasia

 

Well SWTOR is a cheap copy of EQ and planning on being same as wow so it deserves to be lower then is cheap asian grinder(witch is not entirely true)at leasta high quality game like darkfall is at the top 5 sometimes even number 1 where it should be:)

How do you know that darkfall is a "high quality" game?

It is not even published....

The advantage is that these guys hop from hype to hype so I can game at least without the children bothering me.