As an ex-flyff player (having played since V6) and all-round games enthusiast, I know what is a good game.  I'm sad to say that FlyFF is not a good game anymore.  There's a reason I said anymore - FlyFF was the epitome of a good MMORPG.

FlyFF was the first MMO that I played, as the advert for it just kept popping up all over the game sites I frequented.  I played it for a long time before I checked out some other games (2Moons, RF Online, etc), but I just couldn't stay away from FlyFF.

The game was just great: the GM's throwing events every so often, GW's frequently taking place, guilds being more than just a badge of honour.

But now things have changed.  Since V9 and throughout the versions that superceded it, gala periodically threw faecal matter at the community fan.

V8 was complained about by all in the beta by almost everyone, so intelligently gala ditched the idea.  Instead, they came up with V9!  In essence, the crap ideas that nobody agreed with categorised under a new name to try and cover over the fact that they weren't going to invest any time or money into creating new ideas.

V9 encouraged the influx of HnR Ele's and other lame classes.  Removing the S4 PK, adding global PK on all servers, making exp loss higher, implementing delevelling and, to cap it all off, removing level difference defence, just made the game into a corporate money-making scheme and dehumanising the whole game idea.

After a hard day's levelling, high levels would go chill in the PK arena.  Removing this, grouped with the other piss-poor management decisions,  made a good number of players quit.

Possibly the worst idea though, was removing green weapon drops from monsters.  Fancy crafting a unique weapon?  It's only a 1/50 success rate, but hey it's not as if the components needed cost much right?  Wrong again.  Shining Oricalkums coming in at a minimum of 10mil, jewels costing from between 5-100mil, and weapons costing - because of the crafting idea - over 2mil each.  So to have one attempt at making, say, a GK would cost at the bare minimum 15mil.  That's not including time taken, and that is with cheap parts.  17mil*50 tries=850mil, sounds like a good deal to me...  Enough V9 bashing though, let's move on.

V10 - aka V9.1.  Adding in Master and Hero quests, was a great idea (I can't lie and say it wasn't) but announcing it as a whole new version?  Pre-patch and live patch came up to about 9 files (2 for the actual live patch), which in my eyes is not a new version.  There's not much more I can say about V10, as it affected about 0.01% of the community and I wasn't in that selected few.

V11, was an interesting version with highs and lows.  Azria, a place for gpot users, with higher exp, insanely huge spawns, better drop rates (or at least penya bags).  Great right?  Wrong.  With the high influx of penya in peoples pockets, prices start rising.  Inflation ftw.

So now the only expensive thing is green weapons.  They come from giants now, you know. Gala - "Hey AoE'ers!  Yeah you!  I hope you enjoy the lightly smouldering embers of your bonfire that we just pissed on, because now 1v1 classes are even richer than before.".  So now AoE classes can have a whale of a time levelling, whilst 1v1's can level effectively enough, be a lot better at PVP, and be richer.

Another good point to mention is awakenings.  Fancy getting an extra 20 Int Mister Ele?  Well now you can, and you can get that on both your suit and your weapon.  Shame that about 90% of the time the awakening you get is worse than not having the armour on in the first place.  But hey, AoE'ers don't have enough money to buy reversions anyway.  1v1 players do though!  Thought we were overpowered enough before?  Think again.

So I'm a BP, right, and I have this kickass knuckle and this really nice shield.  But wait, if I sacrifice the 10 defence this shield gives (because shields have almost no effect on defence) and use a green shield with an awakening of +20 Str, I can kill better.  But wait!  If i get my shield to have +400mp, my asal becomes like twice the amount it was!

Tying neatly into my next point: The Arena.  I do love my PVP, especially when an Ele can stand on the outside of the arena and hit me with their 3k's and run out straight after, ooh and BP's can position lag asal me and run out like the lame spastic they are.  And don't forget the mages that are 80 levels lower, but can still whip out 1k dmg, which is great when you're already fighting someone.

V12 - the final nail in the coffin.  So if you use 2 handed weapons, you might as well just quit.  Now a rich blade can kill faster than you can AoE anyway, due to the new awakenings and piercings.  Don't even try and PVP against a full str BP with +2000mp awakenings and +70str pierced knuckle.

Now, to sum up what I'm trying to say.

Have you got thousands of $/£/€ that you want to spend frivolously and have no/little fun whilst spending it?  Play FlyFF.

Do you just enjoy levelling incessantly with no potential gain other than a bigger number on the HUD?  Play FlyFF.

Do you like levelling for a couple of hours, finally reach the goal you were aiming for, just to have your ass handed to you in the arena by some retard child using a skill that kills you in one hit?  Play FlyFF.

FlyFF is a great game if you enjoy playing a game just to level, but for PVP and a friendly community, don't under any circumstances even consider FlyFF.  Siege is lame, and no amount of comments can make me reconsider this thought.  All those levels you worked so hard for are for absolutely nothing, as being 50 levels higher makes very little difference to damage on yourself.

My words to Gala:  You could've made a good game great.  Instead you made a good game unbearable and inhuman.  A game isn't a game, if it isn't fun.

Oh and as for whoever it was that did the original interview for the US release of FlyFF, wtf?! Bringing the game to the casual market?  WoW is easier to level on, you absolute moron.

~fuxake

p.s I hold no ill will towards mentally retarded people.  I do, however, dislike children.

p.p.s I probably won't even check this thread often, but you can post if you want.

p.p.s If you are going to disagree with my opinions, please state why and not act like these are the FlyFF forums and troll.

ive been a player of this since it basicly came out and i agree this game sucks atm, but if you just dont care about awakenings you actually have a shot of making it with 2h weapons, Screw the Arena only peoples that hangs there are lvl 100+ so you have no chance at all, The thing about lame classes as BJ and H&R Ele i agree they shouldnt been able to do it its impossible, but i disagree with one thing there is a Great Community in Bangs in the first server (example Mushpoie-1) if you think community is bad you should go there its where everyone hangs out (lvl 60-121) but i must say this game is still the same its just the lvl cap that is anoying cus its so high atm, they should give the exp a Double because grinding is the only answear in this game, quests just give like 10-15% wich we all know is nothing when you get 0,10 each kill at lvl 71 vs a lvl 85 its really anoying (i was a Knight)

Well I had a lvl98 Elementor, so I did do reasonably well, but stopped because all there was to work for was a bigger number .  But all there is to do in the game is grind non-stop.  The bloody weapons are just a joke (+20%mp for a Ele, +20% crit for a Ranger, get real...), the arena either has lamers or people that just hang out (so PVP hardly ever occurs) and ad for S1 bangs...don't you just love using their aoe attack to kill noobs?  I don't do it, but it seems every person there failed so much in arena that they took out their frustration on vagrants/new first jobs.

I'm not saying veterans are a-holes but there aren't many veterans left, as the old generation of friendly faces died.  The new players are about 90% "richards" on my ex-server (Glaphan), and gala still allowing the effing blow-j's.  Have you seen the top-flight asals?  25k was the norm when I left in V11, so now with extra bonuses they can easily hit 60k base asals.

As for 2H weapon users, we're all screwed.  Psy's, BP's and Blades are now much stronger than they were before, bearing in mind Psy's and BP's were already two of the best PVP classes out there.  So now BP's can overpower their asals even more, without sacrificing HP.  How do they do that?  Buy gpots.  The game was about fun back then, now it's just about grinding.

Remember the V7 PK arena?  Or just the arena in general?  That brought the players closer together, and made the game more fun.  What's with the new arena?  Everyone can gang you for disrupting the peace, without fear of retribution as their friends will protect them.

They should just rename the game Grind For Grind as the 'flying' and 'fun' aren't part of the game anymore.

Just because you've quit the game, doesn't mean others shouldn't give it a try.

The game can be fun, and thats really all what matters, it's just based on the taste of the player.

If you play this game with friends, it can be a blast.

Of course everything CAN be fun with friends, granted, but any player can easily have a lot more fun on another game.  No aspect of flyff can outshine a different MMO.

The PVP is massively imbalanced, all there is to do is grind, there are like 5 decent quests in the entire game, the graphics are easily outdone, new players can't make it in the game without gpots/being a complete self-centred arse.

Disprove any of the above points if you like, but I'mpretty sure it's not possible.

iFroob: like the OP (fuxake), I, too played this game several versions ago. I can tell you with 100% certainty that fuxake hit it right on the nail.

Seriously. Flyff WAS good. During the days of mindless grindfests of Ragnarok Online (early 2000s), Flyff rocked. However, you cannot look at it now and tell me with a straight faced that it's even FUN to play. Sure, any crap game can be fun if you have a bunch of RL good friends playing with you, but that's not the point. The game itself is now one huge unbalanced mess.

The awakenings in v11 and now piercings in v12 render playing a 2-handed weapon wielding class pointless. Tell my why you want to play an AoE elementor, for example, when I can create a 1v1 blade who can blow completely past you in grinding speed? Not to mention you'll have to hit-and-run, and spam both food and mp, whereas blades just click, kill, move to next mob, repeat. And do it all way faster and safer. Sure, I'll need to buy 2 swords, but it's not like your single staff is that much cheaper either. Plus you won't be able to tank worth jack compared to me.

Let's not even go to PvP. I was one of the rare few who contributed sane, rational ideas in the suggestions forum (as opposed to the noobs who continually beg for short-term non-fixes like more exp events, bleh, or totally unfeasible ideas that don't stand a chance of being implemented like a new floating map etc). In the years I've been playing, they have not made a SINGLE improvement that was needed, like a comma separating 000 digits in order for people not to get scammed in trades (yes, a simple fix that I, as a programmer, can code in like 1 minute flat). Let's not even talk about the horrible chat system, or how they butchered the friend list, or the party system which, incredibly, actually only encourages you to play with ONE other party member because, ironically, having more nearby will DECREASE your exp.

Flyff is riddled with bugs and glaring unbalances. If you really must try the game, I highly suggest you go look for a private server. Flyff WAS good, a long time ago, in a galaxy far far away. Now it's just a pathetic shell of it's former glory, run by a money-grubbing company. Ask ANY long term player how the success rates of doing ANYTHING have gone. All have been decreased, so that the item mall gets more sales.

Flyff is a has-been, a relic of the older generation of mindless grindfests a la Ragnarok Online. The only positive points I'd admit to it having is that the gameplay is relatively smooth, the action slot is an idea in the right direction for reducing mindless hotkey mashing, gender selection for all classes... well, that's about it. There's no storyline worth mentioning, and the few quests there are in are barely-disguised fetchquests. Everything else, class balance wise, pvp, they're all broken. Don't expect to just grab any random class and think you'll have a fighting chance. Anyone stupid enough to spend at a few hundred bucks will have an edge over you, as well as older players who hoarded drops which are now insanely rare (good luck even attempting to farm "giants", i.e. boss-type mobs).

@Trucidation:   Thank you for seeing the light.

FlyFF will never be as good as it was, as now:

• The player base is getting worse as the versions go on, as the only way to make it in FlyFF is to be selfish and heartless.
• The overpowered 1H weapon classes, seeing as shields make f' all difference to defence (about a 100 increase in defence from a green shield (lvl3) to a Catepo Shield (lvl113)) so players just go for awakened lower level shields.
• The lameness increases and the skill level decreases, don't even tell me that the siege is a skilled competition.  Private servers, with working skills and no PVP bugs, I can easily get MVP as with crappy equips i can manage a 50k asal with 25k hp.  The way to get MVP?  Baby Aibatt Transies, Scroll of Velocity's, Upcuts, Mantises, 3 parts of sardine set and mp suit+shield.  You can't target me, but I can hit you.
• All the game is about is grinding, and the only reward is numbers (and if you're really lucky, a coloured letter  ).
• Imbalance is even worse than before, as the classes that used to be really good at levelling aren't even as good as other classes.  I mean, Canni's have roughly 96k hp and blades can crit over 40k whilst levelling (over 100k on CW), this means that they can kill 2 every 3 seconds easily.  So that's 40 per minute.  As an Ele, it takes about 2-3 minutes to gather 40 mobs, and to do it safely maybe 4-5mins, so blades easily rip through our killing times.  Not to forget that AoE blades can AoE better post-getting their blain/virain set, as they can easily achieve 100% block rate and high hp.  The imbalance is just too big now.

But yes, I must come to a conclusion, I'll try and sum it up in a few lines:

FlyFF WAS one of the greatest, if not the greatest F2P MMORPG's ever.  Post-V7 the game got steadily worse, and now the game is but a rotting corpse of what once was.  Reminisce, my friends, as all we have are our memories.

Well I've been palying the game since V7 and for me ofcourse there's imbalance and weakness of the game..But still I enjoyed it... Because even if you were killed by high level char. that motivates you for me to pursue your goal of becoming the strongest one...and It depends alsoon the character of the player palying the game..it needs patience and motivation.. If you can't survive then quit! that's the mediocre players always do.. It's fine because still there's  lot of players enjoying the game.. As Flyff grows in the game industry it porved that they can battle to the other games...And it shows;;

yeah i kinda thought it was my to post some stuff again

Ive played this game almost since the beta, yeah this game has gone to dust, but there is one thing that still keeps me playing this game The area around bangs i hang out there with alot of other high lvls, we only talk about stuff that happens around in RL the community is great, i havent bothered grinding for ages ive been lvl 71 for like a half year just hanging around talking to my friends,

i fing lvling in this game just not usefull since its just grind grind grind, no thanks il give it a pass i probaly just log in hang around then leave, dont bother go lvl above 70-80 you barely get 1% after taking a whole spawn and losing almost all your health even with ahealer, yeah this game is pretty useless atm i want it back in its former glory, i miss out old GM Chris, the nicest GM ever and he knew what the community wanted and gave it to use until he left, he quit cus the other gms wanted to make this into a money making corporation

Originally posted by Reanemeiko

Well I've been palying the game since V7 and for me ofcourse there's imbalance and weakness of the game..But still I enjoyed it... Because even if you were killed by high level char. that motivates you for me to pursue your goal of becoming the strongest one...and It depends alsoon the character of the player palying the game..it needs patience and motivation.. If you can't survive then quit! that's the mediocre players always do.. It's fine because still there's  lot of players enjoying the game.. As Flyff grows in the game industry it porved that they can battle to the other games...And it shows;;

Survive? You're kidding, right? You say that like this game is challenging. You know who "excel" at this game? Those willing to spend the most IRL money to buy the EXP boosters that will keep them at .15 exp so the horrendous grind doesn't seem AS BAD as it actually is. This game is a travesty. What's the reward for reaching max level? You get to do it allll over again to become a "master". Then you get another skill. Oh, and then you get to do it all over AGAIN and become a "hero". And you get another skill.

All this pointless grinding for two more skills that are a liability AT BEST. I can sum this game up in ONE word: FAILURE.

Originally posted by Reanemeiko

Well I've been palying the game since V7 and for me ofcourse there's imbalance and weakness of the game..But still I enjoyed it... Because even if you were killed by high level char. that motivates you for me to pursue your goal of becoming the strongest one...and It depends alsoon the character of the player palying the game..it needs patience and motivation.. If you can't survive then quit! that's the mediocre players always do.. It's fine because still there's  lot of players enjoying the game.. As Flyff grows in the game industry it porved that they can battle to the other games...And it shows;;

1. PK isn't in the game, unless you mean the arena, and everybody knows Flyff's arena is retarded. There's no restrictions or balance, so obviously that level 120 Master BJ with max dex awakenings will pwn everyone every single time. Fail. Not to mention the hordes of drama queens who sit there and expect people to respect them because they're "famous", and if you so much as even sneeze in their direction, they and their groupies will gank you for hours on end.  Epic fail.

2. Only blind morons don't quit playing it. Sure, quitting a game after only 2 weeks is weak, but you've been around since version 7. Good god. Don't you know any better? You REALLY must be stupid. I started playing around the same time you did, and the only reason I stuck around until v12 because I had RL friends. Version 8-9 was enough to show you the game was crashing and burning. That was already like almost a year's worth of v7. In that amount of time if you STILL couldn't see what the game was doing wrong, then you're either extremely naive and haven't played many MMOs at all, or you're just stupid. The subsequent versions, 9-12, just reinforced the message. You can't tell ANY good MMO gamer with a straight face that any of those versions were good for the playerbase. Sure, some new features were introduced (v9 pets, v11 awakenings), but you're deluded if you think they're awesome - search the threads on the official forums on them. It'll be too long to delve into the failings of those here.

"If you can't survive then quit!" <--- rofl, spoken like either a masochist or somebody who doesn't have a clue. Seriously. Trawl the numerous threads talking about class balance. Not the weekly bitching by new people who just discovered they got shafted, but the epic multipage ones which surface during each new version release. If you're still defending the game NOW, 5 versions since you started, then something is seriously wrong with you. Or maybe you're one of those people who just played a single class all this while, and it happened to be one of the unbalanced overpowered ones, so you never actually realised anything was wrong (because you never think about how another class might have to cope with the game).

Just because we're dissing the game doesn't mean we're idiots who played only 2 weeks and quit with a single level 10 character. Dude, I had more accounts than fingers at the peak of my madness, and I lost track of how many 2nd job characters I raised (what can I say, friends make even bad games bearable). I know the game inside and out, bugs and exploits included. I'll admit straight out that Flyff has SOME good ideas, but at this point in time it's just a steaming pile of shit. Don't kid yourself, and worse, don't kid newcomers who want to try a new good game. Flyff isn't one. If you REALLY must try it, google up some private servers. Don't waste your time on the official ones.

All voices must be raised up in agreement, DO NOT PLAY FLYFF!!!  For the sake of your sanity, don't play it.  SPAM is the name of the game, and flying is only fun for about 30 mins when you finally attain that goal.  This game is a SUPER GRIND FEST ver 2.0 because 18 onward everything is a struggle.

Yea Flyff is getting a worse now since with v13 coming out like what is with this marriage system like really can u get any more over dramatic. The Grind takes forever. PvP is really bad just an arena and the high levels with destroy you. DUngeons really dumb like theirs only 1 at lvl 40-50 and the really good ones at lvl 120.

playing on and off since v5 mostly off 00.01 to 00.02 exp in azria for one kill at cannibal mammoths at level 111 thats solo 00.03 to 00.04 with a leech ^^ talk about crazy exp rates,even with a strong 1v1 bp it would take weeks for me to level playing 24/7 and for what another low level bp wih mp awaked wedge-flury set to one hit me with asal in a boring guild war,i agree with Fuxake 100% game was ok with the pvp channel had some fun running about with a red name dressed in low level items few good fights.missed a few vesions only done 11 levels in the past few years just can`t be bothered,if only i could sell my account on e-bay....

I used to really, really love this game.  I could play hours on end.  I mean I wasn't doing to well money-wise and stat-wise and whatnot with my merc but I sure as hell still liked the damn game.  Later, I found out how fun it is to be a spellcaster, but now I wish I had done that sooner.

Honestly, now I can't even change my appearance in the game without spending ALL of my penya.

I been playing since v4 and i agree it was the best long ago now its complete crap, BUT i am a dedcated player and i will continue to keep playing.

I'm a dedicated player of FlyFF while I agree everyone is entitled to there opinion I actually enjoy the game, it's a good game for sure, in moderate amounts, no one can really play one game forever real gamers come in large numbers and know how to beat any MMO with a stick, I myself have played FlyFF for many years now off and on checking in when a new version pops out and leaving when they screw something up, for every action of theres they will gain/lose some players, wether or not it's good or bad (that part is left for you to decide) but to be completely honest if your going to invest time, effort, (and sometimes) money, into a game it's sometimes gonna make you mad it makes me red in the face when I can't relax with FlyFF or some other games I own

but I know I'll still play each and every one of them all in good time.

my take on flyff  

i have been playing flyff for a long time  and i recently stopped playing got old lol ;p

anyway this i my view on it hope it helps some people decided over the game

good things

-the game can be really fun if you have people to play it with and get some people to help you out

-the graphics and game itself looks pretty childish but in my case it helped me wanna play it more its a layed back scene its not like rappelz (which i love this game) where the scene is all serious if you understand what im trying to say :S

-the events they run alot of events all the time which i love it makes the game fun and when there running box events it gives you a goal you love cause you just wanna keep getting the boxes to get the items inside or just to sell for some quick cash

-weapons/armor there are alot of different veriaty's of weapons/armor which is fun

-classes there are alot of classes to chose from tho there could be a few more skills for these classes there are still a good number of skills

-and for me this game was really easy to get into i just liked it and couldnt stop

-flying great add on i love it!

bad things

-money is hard to get when your low level and by low level i mean lvl1-50 and thats a HUGE! bad thing because if your new leveling up is hard if you dont have money to get proper equipment and such to train like earings and necks and things to upgrade your armor and stuff so its hard to get money which makes it hard to train

-pet the pets are usefull if your aoeing but there hard to get here we come with the money thing again it cost loads of penya to get a pet and only long term players have that kinda cash

-pvp is a problem because its to big of a deal the arena is boring and annoying to me not because i die because i die by these mega high levels and its annoying when i go to the arena i wanna fight somone around my level to try to test out my pvp skills without there being an effect to my rating but when i go theres only high levels there  and they just wanna be douche bags that show off and kill you to be like "yea im awsome what you gonna do about it" and yes i have had people say that to me

-leveling is a problem if your new just getting from the two job changes is hard and the game only really starts once you get past your second job change and even then once you get to level 70

-skills i dont like the skills there are a good number but it doesnt match to me there need to be more skills and improve the skills there are like bow mastery,or perfect defense they only increase your attack/deff by 20 which really isnt a help at all and its just there a waste of  skill points to use so in my view they should increase that and fix it a little

-lag there have been many times when im aoeing and right in the middle of me fighting my huge mobs i lagg like hell and die there are times i know where it was my computers fault and there are MANY more times where i know it wasnt so they should definitly fix that cause aoe is somthing most people go for to level fast (i dont i just love it its fun :D)

-the quest there could be more quests

this is my views on it so go head and fight about it or whatever :P but yea

I started playing back in v6, at that time I loved the game with the cute graphic and the way how you can fly but by v9, it got really lame and I ended up quiting. After v12 was released, I tried to continue playing but I was only able to last a week cus it was still lame. Flyff really is getting worst and worst, so don't waste your time on this game.

Yeah I played this game for a REALLY long time, but it just started to decay. Everyone started to get old, and it was grind after grind after grind. The quests weren't worth it either.

I've been playing this game for about four years now. It is my number one MMO choice and will continue to be my all time favorite online game to play. However, I completely understand where you are coming from. When a great game loses its power due to horrible version updates, players get angry! I would love to hear your take on the latest version, haha.

Originally posted by J.W.Schroy

I've been playing this game for about four years now. It is my number one MMO choice and will continue to be my all time favorite online game to play. However, I completely understand where you are coming from. When a great game loses its power due to horrible version updates, players get angry! I would love to hear your take on the latest version, haha.

My take on the latest version is that you look like one of those guys who get paid to surf a forum and write good things about bad games (especially seeing your second post about Flyff growing in popularity, 3 times "ha!" on that!).

or you're a zombie.

either way, people, don't play Flyff, it still sucks big time.

free to play,pay to win....i remember v5 late 05 the game had server lag all the players in partys would lag at the same time huge 15 sec lag peaks,the game was unplayable at times.thats the only memory i have of the gool old days,oi and afk buffing with my ringmaster maxing out buffs the new skill points system is 100% better for new players and us older players making new chars,it`s a pvm game pvp is a joke because of awakes and overpowered skills,they removed damage reduction based on player levels in pvp,so whats the point in having more levels apart from pvm.to be honest if your looing for a smooth cute grind game with ok 3D graphics and it`s free,flyff is the game.now i`m going back on my 120 asal noob to lol at cash shop whores in arena.

I totally agree with the OP...however, he forgot/didn't have time to mention the fact that Gala-net is basically an ongoing criminal enterprize! I mean, seriously, these people are crooks! Their latest attack on the player base came in the form of a Christmas Event wherein you were to go out and grind on mobs in order to collect Christmas Spirit...you then exchange the Christmas Spirit (25) for (1) Christmas Token. Well, there were a bunch of people who were buying tokens before the prizes were officially announced in order to "get them while their cheap". Gala-net deliberately kept the rewards a secret (because they sucked so badly) and so, long story short, all those people got burned on their tokens...many of them lost BILLIONS of penya, which totally wiped them out. Dozens of people have /ragequit...others broke down and cried...still others took it like the good little slaves they are.

I could literally write a book on all the shady crap that Gala has done/does to it's players.

Me and my friends played this game for 2 year(the good years)and we loved it but now it's terrible.Inflation caused prices to rise far to high. I remember when if you had 1 million penya you were rich now if you have 1 million you are poor.Not only did prices increase but the cash shop was just stealing peoples money.I never used the cash shop but one of my freinds did at the time when they offered stuff worth buying but then it got to the point where is was just useless junk.Also the updates came with all kinds of new places and weapons but the only way you could use them was to pay real money.It got to were if you didnt use cash shop you couldnt do anything and if you did use cash shop you were throwing away money.