Originally posted by Sovrath

Originally posted by altairzq

Originally posted by SwampRob

I said I don't like a severe death penalty, and I don't.   Having my character lose exp or items or whatever is not fun to me.  And since we are talking about games, the whole point is fun.

Here is the problem. MMOs are not games. They are worlds to live in. If you turn them into a game, they become uninteresting. If you want them to be fun, they turn absolutely boring. But if they are living worls, where you suffer and accomplish things, thanks to the help of others, and help other in their quests and problems, then, MMOs become epic and incredibly addictive, and, indirectly, fun.

 

Ok, seriously who says? they feel like games to me. They play like games.

I feel the scarier thing (from my perspective) is that you feel that they are worlds to live in. We aready have a world to live in. One that actually matters.

but sure, if you want to enjoy them like this, more power to you. Isn't it lucky that you can make them a world to live in and others can enjoy them as more entertainment? Because you can do both.

Well I speak for all the ones that complain about new MMOs being lame. This is all we are talking in the forums, for some time now.

Originally posted by altairzq

Originally posted by Sovrath

Originally posted by altairzq

Originally posted by SwampRob

I said I don't like a severe death penalty, and I don't.   Having my character lose exp or items or whatever is not fun to me.  And since we are talking about games, the whole point is fun.

Here is the problem. MMOs are not games. They are worlds to live in. If you turn them into a game, they become uninteresting. If you want them to be fun, they turn absolutely boring. But if they are living worls, where you suffer and accomplish things, thanks to the help of others, and help other in their quests and problems, then, MMOs become epic and incredibly addictive, and, indirectly, fun.

 

Ok, seriously who says? they feel like games to me. They play like games.

I feel the scarier thing (from my perspective) is that you feel that they are worlds to live in. We aready have a world to live in. One that actually matters.

but sure, if you want to enjoy them like this, more power to you. Isn't it lucky that you can make them a world to live in and others can enjoy them as more entertainment? Because you can do both.

Well I speak for all the ones that complain about new MMOs being lame. This is all we are talking in the forums, for some time now.

Well I think that is great that there are so many die hard fans. However, my thought is that you guys should be playing the games that allow this type of gameplay. And if you say that there aren't any then aren't you then arguing that people should stay away from mmo's that don't exist?

EQ is still there and so is UO. And so is DAOC for that matter.

Originally posted by Sovrath

Originally posted by altairzq

Originally posted by Sovrath

Originally posted by altairzq

Originally posted by SwampRob

I said I don't like a severe death penalty, and I don't.   Having my character lose exp or items or whatever is not fun to me.  And since we are talking about games, the whole point is fun.

Here is the problem. MMOs are not games. They are worlds to live in. If you turn them into a game, they become uninteresting. If you want them to be fun, they turn absolutely boring. But if they are living worls, where you suffer and accomplish things, thanks to the help of others, and help other in their quests and problems, then, MMOs become epic and incredibly addictive, and, indirectly, fun.

 

Ok, seriously who says? they feel like games to me. They play like games.

I feel the scarier thing (from my perspective) is that you feel that they are worlds to live in. We aready have a world to live in. One that actually matters.

but sure, if you want to enjoy them like this, more power to you. Isn't it lucky that you can make them a world to live in and others can enjoy them as more entertainment? Because you can do both.

Well I speak for all the ones that complain about new MMOs being lame. This is all we are talking in the forums, for some time now.

 

Well I think that is great that there are so many die hard fans. However, my thought is that you guys should be playing the games that allow this type of gameplay. And if you say that there aren't any then aren't you then arguing that people should stay away from mmo's that don't exist?

EQ is still there and so is UO. And so is DAOC for that matter.

I would not say UO and EQ are die hard mmo's. And DAOC not even close. Daoc can be played very casually. EQ is a little difficult to play casually because of the item syndrome that was there and some other things but UO coulda lso be played very casually.

I did this and i had allot of fun.

And btw. We can't because those 3 games are destroyed by the company who made it or in case with UO the publisher

Originally posted by Sovrath

Well I think that is great that there are so many die hard fans. However, my thought is that you guys should be playing the games that allow this type of gameplay. And if you say that there aren't any then aren't you then arguing that people should stay away from mmo's that don't exist?

EQ is still there and so is UO. And so is DAOC for that matter.

Yes we should be playing games that allow this type of gameplay and some do exist but they are very old and we want a modern game.

In the meantime we have had to watch devs have spend tens of millions churning out casual games, some of which have been total failures, and the market is already saturated.  

I'm sure that there are more than enough people willing to hand over the money thats burning a hole in their pocket to provide 200,000k subs or however many they need to make a profit.

Where is our game and why will people still try to nerf it into mediocrity after we finally get it?

Originally posted by Blodpls

Originally posted by Sovrath

Well I think that is great that there are so many die hard fans. However, my thought is that you guys should be playing the games that allow this type of gameplay. And if you say that there aren't any then aren't you then arguing that people should stay away from mmo's that don't exist?

EQ is still there and so is UO. And so is DAOC for that matter.

 

Yes we should be playing games that allow this type of gameplay and some do exist but they are very old and we want a modern game.

In the meantime we have had to watch devs have spend tens of millions churning out casual games, some of which have been total failures, and the market is already saturated.  

I'm sure that there are more than enough people willing to hand over the money thats burning a hole in their pocket to provide 200,000k subs or however many they need to make a profit.

Where is our game and why will people still try to nerf it into mediocrity after we finally get it?

 

Originally posted by shadenis
I would not say UO and EQ are die hard mmo's. And DAOC not even close. Daoc can be played very casually. EQ is a little difficult to play casually because of the item syndrome that was there and some other things but UO coulda lso be played very casually.

I did this and i had allot of fun.

And btw. We can't because those 3 games are destroyed by the company who made it or in case with UO the publisher
 

Exactly guys. And that is my point. People are arguing that "others" should be staying out of mmo's if they can't handle "x".

but it seems that the games that have "x" are few and far in between which sort of makes the point completely invalid.

So how can you argue that people should be staying out of mmo's if there are very few mmo's that support your original premise? Do you see how it just doesn't work?

As far as wanting a modern game. Of course you do. But the point is that the early games had to be changed by the publisher as they felt that they needed to get more subs. So it does seem that even the people who made these games didn't feel they could stick with the original formula.

The real problem here as we all know is that (as you pointed out) there are very few games that really support the original premise of this thread, that there are all these old school or fan of old school games who feel disenfranchised and who are adopting a somewhat elitist view to support a style of gaming that doesn't seem to exist anymore.

Oh sure you are waiting on more hardcore games but they aren't out yet. As we all know, games sometimes don't live up to expecations and are even sometimes cancelled during beta (gods and heroes for example).

Instead of arguing that people should stay away from mmo's if they don't meet a criteria that really doesn't seem to exist in full force anymore, you should be arguing that there needs to be more games that adopt more old school gamign principles.

But the thing is we have tons of theads that already do that on this site.

Here's an idea, why don't you take it to the developers themselves? I'm sure some of you go to gaming conventions. Next time why don't you speak to some of them and hear their side of the story?

In the end, you can't argue that people should be staying away from a gaming genre twhen it doesn't include games that fit under this self made list of criteria.

because what will be your argument when there are absoutely no more games that fit your criteria, you all complain and some smart ass posts "you should stay way from mmo's if you expect "high death penalites", must have grouping, raids, etc."

Originally posted by Sovrath

Originally posted by altairzq

Originally posted by Sovrath

Originally posted by altairzq

Originally posted by SwampRob

I said I don't like a severe death penalty, and I don't.   Having my character lose exp or items or whatever is not fun to me.  And since we are talking about games, the whole point is fun.

Here is the problem. MMOs are not games. They are worlds to live in. If you turn them into a game, they become uninteresting. If you want them to be fun, they turn absolutely boring. But if they are living worls, where you suffer and accomplish things, thanks to the help of others, and help other in their quests and problems, then, MMOs become epic and incredibly addictive, and, indirectly, fun.

 

Ok, seriously who says? they feel like games to me. They play like games.

I feel the scarier thing (from my perspective) is that you feel that they are worlds to live in. We aready have a world to live in. One that actually matters.

but sure, if you want to enjoy them like this, more power to you. Isn't it lucky that you can make them a world to live in and others can enjoy them as more entertainment? Because you can do both.

Well I speak for all the ones that complain about new MMOs being lame. This is all we are talking in the forums, for some time now.

 

Well I think that is great that there are so many die hard fans. However, my thought is that you guys should be playing the games that allow this type of gameplay. And if you say that there aren't any then aren't you then arguing that people should stay away from mmo's that don't exist?

EQ is still there and so is UO. And so is DAOC for that matter.

EQ is not there. EQ died with PoP expansion, some years ago. Classic hardcore EQ that is, although it wasn't hardcore back then, it was just the normal thing to play. Don't know about UO or DAoC, never played them.

Originally posted by altairzq

 

EQ is not there. EQ died with PoP expansion, some years ago. Classic hardcore EQ that is, although it wasn't hardcore back then, it was just the normal thing to play. Don't know about UO or DAoC, never played them.

Exactly as I said above.

The old games are there but the devs felt they had to change them. There could be a lot of reason why they changed them. Maybe they "just wanted more money" but maybe they felt that they couldn't keep the games going the way they were going.

Originally posted by Sovrath

Originally posted by Blodpls

Originally posted by Sovrath

Well I think that is great that there are so many die hard fans. However, my thought is that you guys should be playing the games that allow this type of gameplay. And if you say that there aren't any then aren't you then arguing that people should stay away from mmo's that don't exist?

EQ is still there and so is UO. And so is DAOC for that matter.

 

Yes we should be playing games that allow this type of gameplay and some do exist but they are very old and we want a modern game.

In the meantime we have had to watch devs have spend tens of millions churning out casual games, some of which have been total failures, and the market is already saturated.  

I'm sure that there are more than enough people willing to hand over the money thats burning a hole in their pocket to provide 200,000k subs or however many they need to make a profit.

Where is our game and why will people still try to nerf it into mediocrity after we finally get it?

 

 

Originally posted by shadenis
I would not say UO and EQ are die hard mmo's. And DAOC not even close. Daoc can be played very casually. EQ is a little difficult to play casually because of the item syndrome that was there and some other things but UO coulda lso be played very casually.

I did this and i had allot of fun.

 

And btw. We can't because those 3 games are destroyed by the company who made it or in case with UO the publisher
 

Exactly guys. And that is my point. People are arguing that "others" should be staying out of mmo's if they can't handle "x".

but it seems that the games that have "x" are few and far in between which sort of makes the point completely invalid.

So how can you argue that people should be staying out of mmo's if there are very few mmo's that support your original premise? Do you see how it just doesn't work?

As far as wanting a modern game. Of course you do. But the point is that the early games had to be changed by the publisher as they felt that they needed to get more subs. So it does seem that even the people who made these games didn't feel they could stick with the original formula.

The real problem here as we all know is that (as you pointed out) there are very few games that really support the original premise of this thread, that there are all these old school or fan of old school games who feel disenfranchised and who are adopting a somewhat elitist view to support a style of gaming that doesn't seem to exist anymore.

Oh sure you are waiting on more hardcore games but they aren't out yet. As we all know, games sometimes don't live up to expecations and are even sometimes cancelled during beta (gods and heroes for example).

Instead of arguing that people should stay away from mmo's if they don't meet a criteria that really doesn't seem to exist in full force anymore, you should be arguing that there needs to be more games that adopt more old school gamign principles.

But the thing is we have tons of theads that already do that on this site.

Here's an idea, why don't you take it to the developers themselves? I'm sure some of you go to gaming conventions. Next time why don't you speak to some of them and hear their side of the story?

In the end, you can't argue that people should be staying away from a gaming genre twhen it doesn't include games that fit under this self made list of criteria.

because what will be your argument when there are absoutely no more games that fit your criteria, you all complain and some smart ass posts "you should stay way from mmo's if you expect "high death penalites", must have grouping, raids, etc."

 

Good joke sir. If you go to a company and say hey this is awesome then they will not accept it  unless you CAN PROVE it succeeds.

It's risk and risk does not come from big companies although... there are exceptions like ATari /cdproject the witcher, fable, medieval total war etc. etc. but we are talking about the mmo scene. There are glady in other genres still games coming out that ARE innovating. The FPS genre is the least of the innovaters while RPG and RTS you have more chance at innovating while the mmo genre is in basically an ice age where technology doesn't move aka the current time line ( post WOW) 

Risk comes from smaller companies because they mostly have a dream, a vision and don't have that much to LOOSE. Of course , smaller companies can also directly following the mainstream market because they might/could have a vision/dream of wanting to be hugely successful.

Grouping isn't hardcore. You make it sound like it is hardcore but  it isn't. High death penalty, what is a high death penalty.  A niche yes but you are black and white thus do not have valid arguments really ( from your post)  Raiding? wahahaha, you can make it hardcore , you can even make leveling hardcore. You can make progression hardcore? 

Nothing is hardcore. It is just a term. Hardcore is how you make it. You can have complex and easy , you can have easy but hardcore.

Just because EQ and WOW have raiding that costs 3/4 hours ( EQ , 4/5 + minus)  doesn't mean it is hardcore.  You have to make a middleground.  

It is just like democrats /republicans. Both have good ideas so what can you do. Take the good out of both and take the bad out of both.  Mind you , this is an example.

Death penalty is needed. But the word creates fear because everyone thinks a death penalty = full loot or that stupid permadeath stuff. You can also create a middleground or create different servers. There are so many possibilities. IT DOESN'T HAVE TO BE BLACK OR WHITE  !

You wanna know what there story is.  There story is how to create a appealing product to the customer.

A easy question which can vary from a open ended answer to a simple answer. One has better ideas then another and one cares more then the other.

I am saying that stop with the pathetic black and white. The same pathetic discussions on these boards. Both have good sides. Most people on these boards talk black and white.

Think outside the box please! Have an open mind please, not the shitty this or that talk. Which i translate in bla bla bla i want bla bla or this bla bla. 

The best selling mmo= high appeal, good I.P, easy to use, polished ,something in the right time , reputation and much more.

The best mmo in my opinion is elements from both the casual and hardcore side with depth and easy to use but hard to master, a term that has been used allot but has NEVER been used in mmo's BEFORE.

I think really maybe mmo's aren't for a person if they don't like them.  Other than that all kinds of players fit the mold.  The anti-social grind in a corner and make money people are good to supply the economy with good tradeskilled items while the hardcore players that raid all the time can help others progress and can keep the fighting portion of the games going.  Its kinda like the left and the right of the world, without the left you would have the right vise versa!

If you build it they will come!

Originally posted by SwampRob

Originally posted by Wickersham

It depends how the game is designed - as we move away from world simulators, community roles, and community building design the solo gamer is losing their place in MMORPGs.

In todays MMORPGs, yes, there is no point for people to play a MMORPG if they only want to solo.  They may as well go play a single player RPG they will get as much out of it.

That was not always the case...

 

 

Why is there no point to play an MMO if I only want to solo?   There's tons of reasons, persistant world, large, lively population, a nice changing Economy, hell, even just talking to others or watching them do their thing will always seem more realistic than the NPC actions in a solo game.   And there's a world of difference between choosing to group and being forced to group.   I hate being forced into any one method to accomplish a task/quest in a game.

Preferring to solo does not mean antisocial, nor does it mean preferring single player games.

It's a massive multiplayer online role playing game, by definition it's designed for players to interact with each other.  If you get nothing from interacting with other players then why play a MMORPG?

Also, "hell, even just talking to others" is an aspect of solo gameplay now?  Sorry, I didn't know that.

Originally posted by Sovrath

Originally posted by Wickersham

It depends how the game is designed - as we move away from world simulators, community roles, and community building design the solo gamer is losing their place in MMORPGs.

In todays MMORPGs, yes, there is no point for people to play a MMORPG if they only want to solo.  They may as well go play a single player RPG they will get as much out of it.

That was not always the case...

 

 

Actually I find it extrmely easy to solo in many of today's games. Not to say that there isn't group content or that I don't group.

And once again, I will state, there is more to player interaction then grouping.

Having live players makes the world more alive. Nothing is more apparent than when you go from a mmorpg and then load up Obvlivion and stand in the middle of skingrad. You can almost hear the wind the graphics are so good.

What do you get from a MMORPG that you don't get from a RPG if you have no interest in participating with the people around you?

Having live players also means that players will be in your way stealing your 10 spider legs or 30 rat tails.

Originally posted by Wickersham

What do you get from a MMORPG that you don't get from a RPG if you have no interest in participating with the people around you?

Having live players also means that players will be in your way stealing your 10 spider legs or 30 rat tails.

Finally we're getting down to the thick of it.  I too want to know what all the solo players think about this question and what their response will be.

Originally posted by shadenis

 

Good joke sir. If you go to a company and say hey this is awesome then they will not accept it  unless you CAN PROVE it succeeds.

 

It's risk and risk does not come from big companies although... there are exceptions like ATari /cdproject the witcher, fable, medieval total war etc. etc. but we are talking about the mmo scene. There are glady in other genres still games coming out that ARE innovating. The FPS genre is the least of the innovaters while RPG and RTS you have more chance at innovating while the mmo genre is in basically an ice age where technology doesn't move aka the current time line ( post WOW) 

Risk comes from smaller companies because they mostly have a dream, a vision and don't have that much to LOOSE. Of course , smaller companies can also directly following the mainstream market because they might/could have a vision/dream of wanting to be hugely successful.

Grouping isn't hardcore. You make it sound like it is hardcore but  it isn't. High death penalty, what is a high death penalty.  A niche yes but you are black and white thus do not have valid arguments really ( from your post)  Raiding? wahahaha, you can make it hardcore , you can even make leveling hardcore. You can make progression hardcore? 

 

Nothing is hardcore. It is just a term. Hardcore is how you make it. You can have complex and easy , you can have easy but hardcore.

Just because EQ and WOW have raiding that costs 3/4 hours ( EQ , 4/5 + minus)  doesn't mean it is hardcore.  You have to make a middleground.  

It is just like democrats /republicans. Both have good ideas so what can you do. Take the good out of both and take the bad out of both.  Mind you , this is an example.

Death penalty is needed. But the word creates fear because everyone thinks a death penalty = full loot or that stupid permadeath stuff. You can also create a middleground or create different servers. There are so many possibilities. IT DOESN'T HAVE TO BE BLACK OR WHITE  !

You wanna know what there story is.  There story is how to create a appealing product to the customer.

A easy question which can vary from a open ended answer to a simple answer. One has better ideas then another and one cares more then the other.

I am saying that stop with the pathetic black and white. The same pathetic discussions on these boards. Both have good sides. Most people on these boards talk black and white.

Think outside the box please! Have an open mind please, not the shitty this or that talk. Which i translate in bla bla bla i want bla bla or this bla bla. 

The best selling mmo= high appeal, good I.P, easy to use, polished ,something in the right time , reputation and much more.

The best mmo in my opinion is elements from both the casual and hardcore side with depth and easy to use but hard to master, a term that has been used allot but has NEVER been used in mmo's BEFORE.

 

Well, to be honest I completely agree.

There is no right way to play an mmorpg.    One can quest, craft, raid, pvp or just sit back and chat.  One can solo or group.   Play in short bursts or play all day.    One of the reasons the genre is so popular there is something for everyone.  

Different people have their own ideas of what is fun.   What is wrong with that?

Originally posted by Porfat

There is no right way to play an mmorpg.    One can quest, craft, raid, pvp or just sit back and chat.  One can solo or group.   Play in short bursts or play all day.    One of the reasons the genre is so popular there is something for everyone.  

Different people have their own ideas of what is fun.   What is wrong with that?

EXACTLY!

Which is why the premise of the thread is disturbing. For instance, I play a bit of WoW but quite frankly my playstyle for that game is not really like others.

I don't craft or sell or raid or even pvp in that game. I just like logging in for a short bit, doing some quests and logging off. It's light fun for me, I don't bother anyone and enjoy the small amount of time I spend in the game.

That really is the beauty of these games. And a far as what a game has to happen, again, we are all different. Yeah, hard to believe huh? So one persons great game is another person's nightmare.

Originally posted by Ravanos

if you can only play for 30 minutes a day

If you can't stand dungeon crawls or slaying tons of mobs

if you are antisocial and think everything should be doable solo

if you don't like to raid ... because god forbid you might have to deal with another human being

if all you want to do is kill other players

if you hate the fact that there are consequences to dying and its not just a free port back to your home.

if constantly questing, killing for new gear is not fun to you.

Maybe you should play a FPS, an RTS a single player RPG or find some other genre that can suit your needs better.

now not saying you have to enjoy it all but for god sake i have heard people say "I can only play for 30 minutes a day,  I want to be able to progress my character without the need of help from anyone else" ... its like you can! just not in a MMO you can get all that from a single player RPG.

Why not? There are plenty of MMO that allows u to do all that.

Originally posted by pileopoop

The Answer is.... Diablo 3.

haha i agree!

Originally posted by kingbarth

Originally posted by pileopoop

The Answer is.... Diablo 3.

 

haha i agree!

I second this motion and also agree with the OP.

Originally posted by Ravanos

if you can only play for 30 minutes a day

If you can't stand dungeon crawls or slaying tons of mobs

if you are antisocial and think everything should be doable solo

if you don't like to raid ... because god forbid you might have to deal with another human being

if all you want to do is kill other players

if you hate the fact that there are consequences to dying and its not just a free port back to your home.

if constantly questing, killing for new gear is not fun to you.

Maybe you should play a FPS, an RTS a single player RPG or find some other genre that can suit your needs better.

now not saying you have to enjoy it all but for god sake i have heard people say "I can only play for 30 minutes a day,  I want to be able to progress my character without the need of help from anyone else" ... its like you can! just not in a MMO you can get all that from a single player RPG.

THANK YOU!

Originally posted by Wickersham

Originally posted by Sovrath

Originally posted by Wickersham

It depends how the game is designed - as we move away from world simulators, community roles, and community building design the solo gamer is losing their place in MMORPGs.

In todays MMORPGs, yes, there is no point for people to play a MMORPG if they only want to solo.  They may as well go play a single player RPG they will get as much out of it.

That was not always the case...

 

 

Actually I find it extrmely easy to solo in many of today's games. Not to say that there isn't group content or that I don't group.

And once again, I will state, there is more to player interaction then grouping.

Having live players makes the world more alive. Nothing is more apparent than when you go from a mmorpg and then load up Obvlivion and stand in the middle of skingrad. You can almost hear the wind the graphics are so good.

What do you get from a MMORPG that you don't get from a RPG if you have no interest in participating with the people around you?

Having live players also means that players will be in your way stealing your 10 spider legs or 30 rat tails.

This question has been answered many times on this forum, but anyway....

A changing, thriving economy/auction house/craft sellers is always better in an MMO than an RPG.

Seeing real people run around talking, doing their thing makes the world seem more alive.    Not grouping (ie soloing) is not the same as not interacting.    I may ask or answer questions of my fellow players.  I may buy from or sell to my fellow players.      I might pass along some wisdom or have it passed on to me about the game.   Heck, I might just wave as I pass knowing it's a real person on that horse and not a computer-controlled NPC.    I might look at other players gear or build or stats, and compare it to my own as a measuring stick of progress.     I might come to some player's aid when his health is low (or him to mine).   I may offer him a free buff or item, just because I don't need it and maybe he can use it.

Also, the world goes on in an MMO when I am logged off.   This is not true of any single player game I have ever played.

All of these things involve interacting with the MMO world and the real players in it, and none of them have anything to do with grouping.

I'm not against others grouping, I dont know of any diehard soloer who is.   I am merely against being forced to group to see content or advance my character.    I don't want the option to team with them removed, I just don't want it as the only option.