Originally posted by Balkin31

No Bioware should make the game THEY want to make and gamers can decide whether to play or not...

They won't ever be making the game they want again. 

They will be making the game EA wants.

And we all know how they generally turn out.

Originally posted by Lateris

 Hi I am Lateris and I am a SWG vet. I don't want SWTOR to resemble anything that SWG is doing. 

I agree. I'd be far happier seeing it resemble the KOTOR games, rather than SWG.

Originally posted by kingfelix

I agree. I'd be far happier seeing it resemble the KOTOR games, rather than SWG.

Yes please

Originally posted by BaldyMike

Obviously you never played Pre NGE...There was LOTS more to do than just be a fat dancer. As a matter of fact you could do just about anything you could immagine. PvP - both space and land based, Exploring the HUGH world, running Missions, Gather mats for a limitless PLAYER ran ecconomy.....

Is TOR going to be that? Probably not...will it be fun...probably. Are you really saying that that is too much to ask for....Something that can offer 10000's of hours of enjoyable play time, wrather than another mindless grind....Well good....obviously the developers out there agree with you. They can have their 6 month subscribers that move on to another clone ... heheh ...clone wars !!!

 

Mik

You're delusional to think Pre NGE wasn't about grinding. When it came down to it, running missions, gathering mats and gaining professions were all grinds. Hell, the majority of people even willingly grinded their ass off to unlock Jedi. Player base economies reward the vets, plain and simple. Try going into SWG now with its player based economy. Gonna need millions of credits just to start off. Wanna fly right off the bat, wich is one of the options you are speaking of? Nope, need several hundred thousand credits to over a million just to get started after you grow out of the starter ship. People are on a more equal footing when there isn't a player ran economy.

Originally posted by JK-Kanosi

Originally posted by BaldyMike

Obviously you never played Pre NGE...There was LOTS more to do than just be a fat dancer. As a matter of fact you could do just about anything you could immagine. PvP - both space and land based, Exploring the HUGH world, running Missions, Gather mats for a limitless PLAYER ran ecconomy.....

Is TOR going to be that? Probably not...will it be fun...probably. Are you really saying that that is too much to ask for....Something that can offer 10000's of hours of enjoyable play time, wrather than another mindless grind....Well good....obviously the developers out there agree with you. They can have their 6 month subscribers that move on to another clone ... heheh ...clone wars !!!

 

Mik

 

You're delusional to think Pre NGE wasn't about grinding. When it came down to it, running missions, gathering mats and gaining professions were all grinds. Hell, the majority of people even willingly grinded their ass off to unlock Jedi. Player base economies reward the vets, plain and simple. Try going into SWG now with its player based economy. Gonna need millions of credits just to start off. Wanna fly right off the bat, wich is one of the options you are speaking of? Nope, need several hundred thousand credits to over a million just to get started after you grow out of the starter ship. People are on a more equal footing when there isn't a player ran economy.

Well if there was maybe price caps on items based on their stats, or randomly generated price points based on a virtual economy (supply and demand) that would help. But it would be a heavy system code wise.

Originally posted by JK-Kanosi

 

You're delusional to think Pre NGE wasn't about grinding. When it came down to it, running missions, gathering mats and gaining professions were all grinds. Hell, the majority of people even willingly grinded their ass off to unlock Jedi. Player base economies reward the vets, plain and simple. Try going into SWG now with its player based economy. Gonna need millions of credits just to start off. Wanna fly right off the bat, wich is one of the options you are speaking of? Nope, need several hundred thousand credits to over a million just to get started after you grow out of the starter ship. People are on a more equal footing when there isn't a player ran economy.

Pre-cu never felt like a grind, mainly because you didn't have some dumb number floating over your head to remind you that you were either a level 12 nub or a level 80 uber fucking leet Jeddai, the level system marked everyone prgress in that way and effectively made it more of a grind.  The only things I saw as a true grind were the Jedi grind and harvesting creature resources, other than that in before the CU you got xp from everything no matter how easy or tough a fight it was and as levels didn't even enter your thinking because they didn't exist, there wasn't a mad dash to hit the level cap, you just played the game and trained as you needed to along the way.

Now, having said all of that, if BioWare hold true they could reach a similar dynamic with their mmo if you simply level while unravelling your story, should certainly make it a lot more fun than the usual, geting 20 lion pelts and shit.

Originally posted by Gabrion2

So the devs should follow the orders of a few "vets" and ignore what a much larger player base is looking for?  Not only would this cut their profits, but it would also reduce the number of ppl who really have fun playing this game.  No thanks.

For the love of mother and child, NO one said (as far as I have seen) Bioware should make a game tailored to the wishes of a few vets of whatever.

There are veterans of Star Wars MMO gaming. We have experience in some things, we analyzed the good and bad things of a MMO called SWG and other MMOs, and we talk about our conclusion. I am sure ignoring a few of them will mean TOR would just be another mediocre niche game like so many made in the last year. This is what I - and other "vets" are convinced of. On the contrary, I think we have an insight based on EXPERIENCE, namely SWG (among others), which makes our insight a wee bit more than mere pondering of those who did NOT experience SWG in the PRE-NGE days. They would do well to heed those experiences, not for US, but fot the success of TOR! Its not that any of us want to see the TOR concept turned upside down, but there are a few kill criteria we know about from experience.

Any developer would be stupid NOT to listen to those with experience in gaming. We have seen enough highs and lows in SW games to KNOW what works and what just doesnt, unlike those who just have opinions.

In our so-called democratic age, everyone thinks he is fit to have an opinion about everything, but there is a vast difference between those who know by experience and those who only speculate. They'd be well advised to LISTEN to the much blamed veterans. Boy, we were making a Star Wars MMO world alive when your virtual ego still was a blink in the eye of your modem! So before you make a fool of yourself you better stop japping at us, and simply try to really listen to what elder gamers have to say, kiddo.

Originally posted by efefia

Originally posted by JK-Kanosi

 

You're delusional to think Pre NGE wasn't about grinding. When it came down to it, running missions, gathering mats and gaining professions were all grinds. Hell, the majority of people even willingly grinded their ass off to unlock Jedi. Player base economies reward the vets, plain and simple. Try going into SWG now with its player based economy. Gonna need millions of credits just to start off. Wanna fly right off the bat, wich is one of the options you are speaking of? Nope, need several hundred thousand credits to over a million just to get started after you grow out of the starter ship. People are on a more equal footing when there isn't a player ran economy.

 

Pre-cu never felt like a grind, mainly because you didn't have some dumb number floating over your head to remind you that you were either a level 12 nub or a level 80 uber fucking leet Jeddai, the level system marked everyone prgress in that way and effectively made it more of a grind.  The only things I saw as a true grind were the Jedi grind and harvesting creature resources, other than that in before the CU you got xp from everything no matter how easy or tough a fight it was and as levels didn't even enter your thinking because they didn't exist, there wasn't a mad dash to hit the level cap, you just played the game and trained as you needed to along the way.

Now, having said all of that, if BioWare hold true they could reach a similar dynamic with their mmo if you simply level while unravelling your story, should certainly make it a lot more fun than the usual, geting 20 lion pelts and shit.

Well that's just it. A grind is in the eye of the beholder. To many WoW isn't a grind, while to others it's the most horrible grind out there. The thing about SWG before anyone was striving to skill cap is what did you all do and how long would that of lasted until a) people got bored with that activity or b) people analyzed and figured out how to be the best in whicher build you were going for. That's the problem with MMORPGs, and even more so in sandbox games is that you can always count on the community to figure all the numbers out and post them on the internet, effectively leaving those who want to compete with little choice but to follow their builds or to be smart enough to come up with your own. Sandbox games don't traditionally have content, so it's left up to the community to use their imagination. This only works for so long until people get bored, as many people did Pre-CU by complaining on the forums about a lack of content. There's only so many times you can explore the SWG and kill all of the baddies until you lose interest.

That's where these linear games get it right. They put you into a story for you to work through your levels in and at max level, they give you more story to keep you busy. In WoW's case, their story is injected into their raids, 5-mans, and events. In Bioware, it sounds like they're actually making the whole leveling experience apart of one big story line.

It's so late that I don't even know what point I am making anymore, but I guess when you or someone else replies I'll be reminded of it. Something just sounds wrong with your argument and I know what it is, I just am not alert enough to pick it out. I love sandbox games more than linear games, but I am unbiased when speaking about their qualities. I find that being unbiased is the only way to really get anywhere in these discussions.

Originally posted by tillamook

Originally posted by BizkitNL

Bioware doesn't owe the Vets anything. SOE however..........meh. Get over it.

 

Says you. LEC feels they do though, because they are after all Star Wars fans, hence the upgrade in communication efforts you see now will and continue to see. LEC is not going to let this falter like they did with SWG by taking a completely hands off approach because it didn't work. One thing they did ask of BioWare right off the bat is to continue to have interaction with their community and listen to their concerns through out development and into launch. You will continue to see concerns that are raised on their forums talked about in interviews as they are allowed to talk about them.

You imply that LEC is gonna try to stop Bioware from making mistakes other companies have made in the past. Bioware might  take that advice seriously. Sounds good to me.

However, they still do not owe the Vets anything. Bioware had nothing to do with SWG and they still don't. Honestly, some people need to get off their pedestal.

Obviously noone wants them to copy SWG.

However SWG had many good ideas which were really fun and need to be put into other mmorpgs.


- Deep crafting system
- Player driven economy
- Seamless worlds
- Space + Land
- Housing seamlessly built into the world
- Profession/skill system
- Players needed eachother to play instead of being able to solo, until people worked out how to do all that stupid doc buffs and resist comp armour.

Originally posted by JK-Kanosi

Originally posted by efefia

Originally posted by JK-Kanosi

 

You're delusional to think Pre NGE wasn't about grinding. When it came down to it, running missions, gathering mats and gaining professions were all grinds. Hell, the majority of people even willingly grinded their ass off to unlock Jedi. Player base economies reward the vets, plain and simple. Try going into SWG now with its player based economy. Gonna need millions of credits just to start off. Wanna fly right off the bat, wich is one of the options you are speaking of? Nope, need several hundred thousand credits to over a million just to get started after you grow out of the starter ship. People are on a more equal footing when there isn't a player ran economy.

 

Pre-cu never felt like a grind, mainly because you didn't have some dumb number floating over your head to remind you that you were either a level 12 nub or a level 80 uber fucking leet Jeddai, the level system marked everyone prgress in that way and effectively made it more of a grind.  The only things I saw as a true grind were the Jedi grind and harvesting creature resources, other than that in before the CU you got xp from everything no matter how easy or tough a fight it was and as levels didn't even enter your thinking because they didn't exist, there wasn't a mad dash to hit the level cap, you just played the game and trained as you needed to along the way.

Now, having said all of that, if BioWare hold true they could reach a similar dynamic with their mmo if you simply level while unravelling your story, should certainly make it a lot more fun than the usual, geting 20 lion pelts and shit.

 

Well that's just it. A grind is in the eye of the beholder. To many WoW isn't a grind, while to others it's the most horrible grind out there. The thing about SWG before anyone was striving to skill cap is what did you all do and how long would that of lasted until a) people got bored with that activity or b) people analyzed and figured out how to be the best in whicher build you were going for. That's the problem with MMORPGs, and even more so in sandbox games is that you can always count on the community to figure all the numbers out and post them on the internet, effectively leaving those who want to compete with little choice but to follow their builds or to be smart enough to come up with your own. Sandbox games don't traditionally have content, so it's left up to the community to use their imagination. This only works for so long until people get bored, as many people did Pre-CU by complaining on the forums about a lack of content. There's only so many times you can explore the SWG and kill all of the baddies until you lose interest.

That's where these linear games get it right. They put you into a story for you to work through your levels in and at max level, they give you more story to keep you busy. In WoW's case, their story is injected into their raids, 5-mans, and events. In Bioware, it sounds like they're actually making the whole leveling experience apart of one big story line.

It's so late that I don't even know what point I am making anymore, but I guess when you or someone else replies I'll be reminded of it. Something just sounds wrong with your argument and I know what it is, I just am not alert enough to pick it out. I love sandbox games more than linear games, but I am unbiased when speaking about their qualities. I find that being unbiased is the only way to really get anywhere in these discussions.

I think you're drawing too much of your argument from WoW, the point about the community finding the fastest way to level, the best builds etc, it's more exaggeated in WoW than it is in every other mmo. Levelling guides, outes between quests to max xp as fast s possible and so on, I know I had 5 level 70's. Even after grinding 5 level 70's the only storyline I remember in WoW is the huge quest chain in the mid 40's I think it was that was basically an homage to Zelda, everything else was basically 'go to this npc, click, click, click, go to X location kill shit, go back to npc collect loot and xp' the story just didn't matter.

The same was possible in SWG to some extent, once the overpowered buffs and 90% composite armour was in you could effectively solo anything with most templates, everyone knew that spamming aoe specials at Hurrton lairs got you insane xp, not everyone spent all their time doing that though because there was so much more to see and do. You weren't confined to a linear progression path that MADE you do that, it was there if you wanted to but if you wanted to hit Lok for vibro motor drops or Dathomir fo Rancor teeth or even just join a group and mess about in for tusken, the possibilities were boundless.

Your own personal levelling methods are your own and how and why you grind is always down to personal preference and subject to your own opinion whether you enjoy it or not but to say SWG didn't have those options or to say it was bound by the same fotm grind techniques and fotm template is wrong. SWG had the content, the only difference was it didn't make you kill 20 Gorax before you could move on to kill a Kimo, it didn't make you kill 20 Kimo before you could kill a Krayt and so on, you did what you wanted, when you wanted. I really can't see how that's a bad thing.

Anyhow totally irrelevent towards SWTOR but as I said in my previous post, as long as there are plenty of options to take the story where you want it to go in SWTOR and aren't forced down a single path where your choices make very little difference, SWTOR might, just might have something fresh, something different. Time will tell.

Originally posted by efefia

I think you're drawing too much of your argument from WoW, the point about the community finding the fastest way to level, the best builds etc, it's more exaggeated in WoW than it is in every other mmo. Levelling guides, outes between quests to max xp as fast s possible and so on, I know I had 5 level 70's. Even after grinding 5 level 70's the only storyline I remember in WoW is the huge quest chain in the mid 40's I think it was that was basically an homage to Zelda, everything else was basically 'go to this npc, click, click, click, go to X location kill shit, go back to npc collect loot and xp' the story just didn't matter.

The same was possible in SWG to some extent, once the overpowered buffs and 90% composite armour was in you could effectively solo anything with most templates, everyone knew that spamming aoe specials at Hurrton lairs got you insane xp, not everyone spent all their time doing that though because there was so much more to see and do. You weren't confined to a linear progression path that MADE you do that, it was there if you wanted to but if you wanted to hit Lok for vibro motor drops or Dathomir fo Rancor teeth or even just join a group and mess about in for tusken, the possibilities were boundless.

Your own personal levelling methods are your own and how and why you grind is always down to personal preference and subject to your own opinion whether you enjoy it or not but to say SWG didn't have those options or to say it was bound by the same fotm grind techniques and fotm template is wrong. SWG had the content, the only difference was it didn't make you kill 20 Gorax before you could move on to kill a Kimo, it didn't make you kill 20 Kimo before you could kill a Krayt and so on, you did what you wanted, when you wanted. I really can't see how that's a bad thing.

Anyhow totally irrelevent towards SWTOR but as I said in my previous post, as long as there are plenty of options to take the story where you want it to go in SWTOR and aren't forced down a single path where your choices make very little difference, SWTOR might, just might have something fresh, something different. Time will tell.

Umm, excuse me? I've played WoW steady now for about 2 weeks. I've played DAoC for 3 years, SWG for a while, and pretty much every game on the market. I did play WoW right after BC came out for a month, but only to lvl 41, so I'm drawning my conclusions from my experience in most games. DAoC is especially bad about this and SWG did the same thing. It was ending up with most people as CH's, BH, or Jedi. The good TKM/whatever builds were well known too. Especially in SWG you have people micromanaging all your stats through food and player buffs. You didn't hear about the buff wars in SWG? What about the composite armor? This happens in every game, not just WoW.

Exploring and such as you're saying in your second paragraph is true about SWG...on paper. I played on both Ahazi and Bloodfin. You'd see the majority of people AoE grinding bols and pickets. So the game by the book gave the player base the ability to explore, which in my experience few really did until after they maxed their profession, but the game in action shown the majority only cared about maxing out their toons. Believe me, I wish it was the other way, because I'd rather play the way I like to play and get xp doing it, rather than AoE grind pickets. Now this can be said about any game. Nothing stopped you, except your mindset, from exploring WoW. You didn't have to do quests, but they were the best xp, like AoE grinding in SWG is. Do you see where I am getting at here? Your mindset was different in SWG, because they didn't have things zoned off giving you that linear feel. You felt like you could explore, even though it was still essentially zoned off by putting high leveled mobs in places to discourage exploring. The same thing is in WoW, for example. You can explore anywhere you want, but like in SWG, you may die if you travel too far into dangerous lands.

What stood out to me that was really different in SWG is the player ran cities, an alpha class, professions, and space combat. Oh, and non-combat professions. In practice though, people chose from well know builds (aka classes), and I never seen cities used  for the RP potential they really had.

Originally posted by JK-Kanosi

 

Umm, excuse me? I've played WoW steady now for about 2 weeks. I've played DAoC for 3 years, SWG for a while, and pretty much every game on the market. I did play WoW right after BC came out for a month, but only to lvl 41, so I'm drawning my conclusions from my experience in most games. DAoC is especially bad about this and SWG did the same thing. It was ending up with most people as CH's, BH, or Jedi. The good TKM/whatever builds were well known too. Especially in SWG you have people micromanaging all your stats through food and player buffs. You didn't hear about the buff wars in SWG? What about the composite armor? This happens in every game, not just WoW.

Exploring and such as you're saying in your second paragraph is true about SWG...on paper. I played on both Ahazi and Bloodfin. You'd see the majority of people AoE grinding bols and pickets. So the game by the book gave the player base the ability to explore, which in my experience few really did until after they maxed their profession, but the game in action shown the majority only cared about maxing out their toons. Believe me, I wish it was the other way, because I'd rather play the way I like to play and get xp doing it, rather than AoE grind pickets. Now this can be said about any game. Nothing stopped you, except your mindset, from exploring WoW. You didn't have to do quests, but they were the best xp, like AoE grinding in SWG is. Do you see where I am getting at here? Your mindset was different in SWG, because they didn't have things zoned off giving you that linear feel. You felt like you could explore, even though it was still essentially zoned off by putting high leveled mobs in places to discourage exploring. The same thing is in WoW, for example. You can explore anywhere you want, but like in SWG, you may die if you travel too far into dangerous lands.

What stood out to me that was really different in SWG is the player ran cities, an alpha class, professions, and space combat. Oh, and non-combat professions. In practice though, people chose from well know builds (aka classes), and I never seen cities used  for the RP potential they really had.

At peak hours there were 2, sometimes 3 full mission groups out of Dant MO. That's only 60 people, maximum, at a time when the game had 350,000 subscribers. To say that "majority" of people were aoe grinding is somehwhat misleading. The differences between the expoloration in swg and WoW for example are absolutely immense, obviously first and foremost there's the difference in size of land mass, Azeroth was tiny for those of us that were used to traversing planets in swg, on foot. Exploration in most level based games like WoW is limited, to the extent of being prohibited, feel free to try it, roll a new toon and take a run through to blackrock mountain, if you even make it as far as the burning steppes you soon give up when you get that far. That is the desing though, that's simply how it's meant to be, SWG was completely different in that you could go wherever you pleased (within reason) there wasn't a POI in the game that wasn't accessable to a non combat character.

The fotm builds were the same, they were saturated, for every fencer/tk/pistols stacker there were probably a dozen carbineer/CH's, or other weird variants. The only time I noticed a lot of people with very similar templates was in pvp, but that's pretty much the nature of pvp. The competativeness in pvp necessitates the most effective build, but even then there was very much a rock, paper, scissors situation and no single template was the best.

Originally posted by Gabrion2

Originally posted by BaldyMike

Obviously you never played Pre NGE...There was LOTS more to do than just be a fat dancer. As a matter of fact you could do just about anything you could immagine. PvP - both space and land based, Exploring the HUGH world, running Missions, Gather mats for a limitless PLAYER ran ecconomy.....

Is TOR going to be that? Probably not...will it be fun...probably. Are you really saying that that is too much to ask for....Something that can offer 10000's of hours of enjoyable play time, wrather than another mindless grind....Well good....obviously the developers out there agree with you. They can have their 6 month subscribers that move on to another clone ... heheh ...clone wars !!!

 

Mik

 

You obviously haven't played a good "clone" MMO.  Millions of people do, millions of people love them. A small cult following with nothing in the real world worth living for wants to be moisture farmers.  Stop asking Bioware+Lucas Arts to listen to that tiny group.

Who are you to tell someone to stop asking for something when in fact you are doing the same! All we SWG vets want is some of the Pre-cu Swg back not a total rehash!

Also a good clone? Come on! We want something original not a rehash of WOW like you want! This thinking is why the genre is stagnate now! WOW came out and did awesome and everyone and thier brother has followed suit only to fail!

Originally posted by Balkin31

No Bioware should make the game THEY want to make and gamers can decide whether to play or not...

i agree.  remember what SOE did by "listening" to players = NGE

Originally posted by BCuse

Originally posted by Balkin31

No Bioware should make the game THEY want to make and gamers can decide whether to play or not...

i agree.  remember what SOE did by "listening" to players = NGE

No. NGE was not a result of SOE listening to players. On the contrary, in fact. The 90% of the players who instantly quit were very vocal about NOT wanting the NGE.

The NGE was a result of yet another game trying to cash in on the WoW crowd....in a piss-poor pathetic manner, at that.

Originally posted by Wharmaster

Originally posted by BCuse

Originally posted by Balkin31

No Bioware should make the game THEY want to make and gamers can decide whether to play or not...

i agree.  remember what SOE did by "listening" to players = NGE

 

No. NGE was not a result of SOE listening to players. On the contrary, in fact. The 90% of the players who instantly quit were very vocal about NOT wanting the NGE.

 

The NGE was a result of yet another game trying to cash in on the WoW crowd....in a piss-poor pathetic manner, at that.

It was gonna be a showcase of the "cool" and "starwarsy" things they  could do with the game to try and get LEC onboard with them to make the next Star Wars MMO based on post EP 6, during the battles between the New Republic and Thrawn.

Ok, here is some information about the job classes. They address the Jedi/Sith class a little, suggesting that the game is going to force players to play other classes and LOTS MORE. Check it out....

http://www.swtortemple.com/component/content/article/1-latest-news/109-new-info-classes-jedi-and-crafting.html

Originally posted by Devildog1

Originally posted by Gabrion2

Originally posted by BaldyMike

Obviously you never played Pre NGE...There was LOTS more to do than just be a fat dancer. As a matter of fact you could do just about anything you could immagine. PvP - both space and land based, Exploring the HUGH world, running Missions, Gather mats for a limitless PLAYER ran ecconomy.....

Is TOR going to be that? Probably not...will it be fun...probably. Are you really saying that that is too much to ask for....Something that can offer 10000's of hours of enjoyable play time, wrather than another mindless grind....Well good....obviously the developers out there agree with you. They can have their 6 month subscribers that move on to another clone ... heheh ...clone wars !!!

 

Mik

 

You obviously haven't played a good "clone" MMO.  Millions of people do, millions of people love them. A small cult following with nothing in the real world worth living for wants to be moisture farmers.  Stop asking Bioware+Lucas Arts to listen to that tiny group.

 

Who are you to tell someone to stop asking for something when in fact you are doing the same! All we SWG vets want is some of the Pre-cu Swg back not a total rehash!

Also a good clone? Come on! We want something original not a rehash of WOW like you want! This thinking is why the genre is stagnate now! WOW came out and did awesome and everyone and thier brother has followed suit only to fail!

Stagnating?  Do you need a link to the Bliz announcement about reaching 11 million subs?  Hmm, do you?

The point is that there is a wide audience looking for fun games like WoW and a tiny audience waiting for darkfall or a rehash of the old SWG.  They are obsessed with an open, player driven game, which is really a fail strat for making an MMO. 

Originally posted by Gabrion2

 

Stagnating?  Do you need a link to the Bliz announcement about reaching 11 million subs?  Hmm, do you?

The point is that there is a wide audience looking for fun games like WoW and a tiny audience waiting for darkfall or a rehash of the old SWG.  They are obsessed with an open, player driven game, which is really a fail strat for making an MMO. 

Yeah that's fine but when all you see from every mmo developer is WoW 1.5, WoW-lite etc stagnating is quite an acceptable term for the current state of the mmo industry.