CCP you successfully completed greed level 5

also look on eula

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Originally posted by beingearnest

No action you can take ingame can speed up this learning process,
there is no grind for learning time or any other of those mechanism.

Installing Implants is an in-game action that speeds up training.  Also, training up the various Learning skills (done in real time like the others, but chosen by you to train first) speeds up training.

What I don't understand are the simultaneous claims that
  (a) CCP is making this change to be greedy, and
  (b) CCP will lose money on this change.

Surely both cannot be true?  If CCP is greedy, you would expect them to make whichever change brings in more money.

Originally posted by Clattuc

Originally posted by beingearnest

No action you can take ingame can speed up this learning process,
there is no grind for learning time or any other of those mechanism.

Installing Implants is an in-game action that speeds up training.  Also, training up the various Learning skills (done in real time like the others, but chosen by you to train first) speeds up training.

What I don't understand are the simultaneous claims that
  (a) CCP is making this change to be greedy, and
  (b) CCP will lose money on this change.

Surely both cannot be true?  If CCP is greedy, you would expect them to make whichever change brings in more money.

Why? If they want to get more money, but they haven't thought about all important aspects of their decision and they lose more customers than in their "worst case scenario" and they get far less money from the fact people have to keep their accounts subscribed for the whole time that can be bad.

Probably CCP thought they will lose only some of the affected accounts, while players who had these accounts know they will also cancel their mains, when their corp and alliance loses members and becomes inactive some of their friends will leave with them. Or that while they weren't ghost training now, they done that before, or planned to do it in the future when they have to train longer skills so they aren't in the 4.16% and will still leave. 

So they suspect CCP made a bad decision and even against their intentions they will lose money.

Originally posted by Enerla

Originally posted by Clattuc

What I don't understand are the simultaneous claims that
  (a) CCP is making this change to be greedy, and
  (b) CCP will lose money on this change.

Surely both cannot be true?  If CCP is greedy, you would expect them to make whichever change brings in more money.

Why? If they want to get more money, but they haven't thought about all important aspects of their decision and they lose more customers than in their "worst case scenario" and they get far less money from the fact people have to keep their accounts subscribed for the whole time that can be bad.

Right, so in other words, CCP didn't think about all important aspects of their decision.  But you did. 

CCP actually, like, knows how much money they make, and how many accounts they have, and stuff.  But we're just a lot smarter. 

So, yes, it makes sense.  They're greedy, but they'll lose money, because they don't pay attention to their company, unlike us.

Originally posted by Clattuc

CCP actually, like, knows how much money they make, and how many accounts they have, and stuff.  But we're just a lot smarter. 

So, yes, it makes sense.  They're greedy, but they'll lose money, because they don't pay attention to their company, unlike us.

Noone said this except you, but let me tell you a few things.

• They told us they didn't know it was in the documentation
• They told us they didn't know their GMs spoke about it as a feature and selling point
• They tell us when they removed it in China but kept in Europe that didn't mean they wanted to keep it in Europe, they just maintained different code branches here because ...
• They told us that this trend surprised them enough to make their reaction happen quickly
• It happened in 2 days, without any checking

And yet you say they know it well. Don't you think that is strange?

Ohh and they said the amount of reaction they got surprised them. So in fact they tell you they excepted a smaller reaction. Yet you say their guesses were accurate and anything based on the size of backslash, information from the community, etc aren't.

Mind if I point out they are surprised by the reaction because they excepted something else, and that something else didn't happen? 

They might lose money and they might avoid it. BUT if they are surprised by few things both about the reactions of surprisers, both about that their "bug" was a feature and an important selling point, and both about what the customers say about how this feature affected their game play, and the results caught them off guard enough to make sure their communication can't reduce problems, then I have to say: They were unable to predict the results of this change.

And if they didn't know what will happen, they can't know how that affects their income. The community who seen several incidents came to a conclusion: They admitedly want more money, but such incidents (where you get this kind of reaction) tend to cause a drop in subscribtions, since it is "fair to CCP" but doesn't give anything to players. 

Personally, I think this kind of BS from CCP is increasing on a daily basis.

First they increased their prices on game time codes but tried to call it "streamlining". Err, that's just trying to treat your customers like dumb jerks. It was a PRICE INCREASE CCP. Don't try and paint it as anything else.

Then when people pointed it out to them they said it was for the new content they had added. Errr, BZZZZZT. The FREE UPGRADES you claim to give us are therefore NOT FREE UPGRADES. When you talk BS it is best to be good at it first because you angered a lot of people by this.

STREAMLINING MY BACKSIDE. FREE UPGRADES MY BACKSIDE.

Now ghost training has gone and they claim it is a bug! Get real CCP. You're not foolong anyone. You did the math and decided it was better to plug this money leak and take a hit on a few accounts rather than keep losing a months subs from 10,000 people coz when people ghost train they would be training something that lasts a long time.

STOP TREATING YOUR CUSTOMERS LIKE IDIOTS AND BE HONEST.

People won't like the changes, but to try and claim it is something other than what it clearly is, is highly insulting as well.

CCP, if you are all gamers, as you claim to be, then stop acting like politicians and accountants.

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Originally posted by Slinkus
CCP, if you are all gamers, as you claim to be, then stop acting like politicians and accountants.
 

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old devs are not working on eve-online they are working on world of darkness or are in CEO position for ccp office in atlanta/china/germany

TomB - he was in charge of game balance, he leaved and we got carrier nerf stupid speed rebalance none can handle well the nerfbat

Oveur - he was senior producer, and t0rfifrans is in that place like senior producer (t0rfifrans was 3D boss) and now wee got this crap

also failed to make a dev blog
http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=904346

I’ve been an Eve player for 3 years, on and off, and of all the other MMOs I’ve played, Eve is the only one I’ve come back to so in my case, they must have something right.

I know quite a few people who have stopped playing for various reasons and come back to Eve sometime later. Almost without exception, none of them could even remember what skill they were training when they stopped playing and that having some additional skill when they did come back was of zero relevance to their return. They all came back just because they wanted to play Eve again, often to see what the latest expansion had to offer.

Ghost training was of little or no use to noob players. Noobs do not focus their skills enough to have any that would run for very long and also wouldn’t have the money to buy whatever fancy bit of kit that a 30-60 day skill training would offer.

The people who are complaining are the long established players who want to train a dread/jump freighter/cap ship alt on the cheap, with no intention of actually playing that character until it reached the desired skill goals, possibly even just for sale.

Do I feel sorry for them now that ghost training has been removed? Nope, not at all
 

Unlike every other game genre, you really need to be comfortable with a MMORPG's developers if you subscribe.

It's not enough if you feel a MMORPG is a fun and entertaining game, you have to be confident in the developers and be confident about what they will do.    Running a MMORPG is providing a service to customers in addition to making a game. 

It's like what is often seen with upcoming games where people getting all excited about the game features but don't pay any attention to the developers.     MMORPG players need to consider both before handing over their money.

Originally posted by finnmacool1

Actually yes to both questions though i havent been active for along time. I quit when i noticed i was only logging in to start a new skill. That doesnt change the fact that you can still play as you skill up nor does it change the fact that early skills take very little time.
 

As far as trying to compare it to leveling games like AoC, etc. If i quit AoC one month after release then come back after an expansion raises the cap to level 100 do i come back at level 100 with gear to match? No.

Yes i know it only  finishes the current skill being trained but as you noted skill times become quite long at advanced levels/skills. If people werent abusing this by starting a time intensive skill towards the end of a billing cycle then restarting at or near completion we wouldnt be having this convo would we?

Your comparison is completely irrelevant as equipment in eve is neither cheap nor easy to get,  and I made no reference to items. Plus you totally skirted around the issue that in eve there is a minimum investment you have to make to become a good player. Due to ghost training being removed this price has gone up to $600+ as well as the two years it will take to train those skills. This means that the time based training system in eve now has no advantages over the grinding system used in many other mmorpgs, such as WoW, as it would be faster and much cheaper for the player to use the generic exp system.
You say it is abusing ghost training by training long skills with it. It was made to be used like that! As an incentive for players to return as grinding doesn't allow the person to level up in any way. What CCP have done is nothing more than a cash grab.
 

Originally posted by Galadai

I’ve been an Eve player for 3 years, on and off, and of all the other MMOs I’ve played, Eve is the only one I’ve come back to so in my case, they must have something right.

I know quite a few people who have stopped playing for various reasons and come back to Eve sometime later. Almost without exception, none of them could even remember what skill they were training when they stopped playing and that having some additional skill when they did come back was of zero relevance to their return. They all came back just because they wanted to play Eve again, often to see what the latest expansion had to offer.

Ghost training was of little or no use to noob players. Noobs do not focus their skills enough to have any that would run for very long and also wouldn’t have the money to buy whatever fancy bit of kit that a 30-60 day skill training would offer.

The people who are complaining are the long established players who want to train a dread/jump freighter/cap ship alt on the cheap, with no intention of actually playing that character until it reached the desired skill goals, possibly even just for sale.

Do I feel sorry for them now that ghost training has been removed? Nope, not at all
 

I've been playing eve pretty much non stop for over a year, and everyone I knew used ghost training, and for the casual players it was the only reason they came back. The potential of flying a new bigger, badder ship was enough to draw them back in.

It's hard to believe that you've been playing for 3 years, never used it, and say it's of no use to noon players. Actually it's just as useful to them as anyone else . Everyone I knew managed to get to a race's crusier 5 by the time their sub was going to run out, and so stuck it on that, and that's a 30+ day skill after 2 month's of sp's.

The long established players aren't moaning - they already have all the capital skills and alts with all the skills needed . They're actually complaining about how CCP is dealing with this (many comments from veterans on the offical forum showing this).  Whereas the new players, from a day old to a year, are complaining because it means the veteran players have had a great advantage over them, in real life terms, and the fact that making alts is now exceptionally expensive.

So as far as CCP claiming removing ghost training is to balance the game, thats nonsense. It just widens the gap considerably more, as the veteran players now have more sp's, isk and much better alts/alts in general.

As for selling alts, CCP actually allow this and have a part of the forum dedicated to it! Due to how the transfers work, CCP still make money on the alts and don't loose a dime. Now by removing ghost training they've shot themselves in the foot and ensured that there will be no more subs for alt accounts as everyone is going to merge any alts into their main accounts.

I ghost trained BS 5 as my last skill before I logged out to take a break.  My character is now eligible for several higher end trains and capital ships.  I just don't see myself coming back now.  This was a nice feature because, like everyone else, I get bored after a while and go do something else.  It's not that I wanted something for nothing, but seriously, some skills take up to 9 months to train in the high end.  I don't see myself just sitting around waiting on that 9 month skill, I'm not that patient.  I suppose if they were smart, they would have coded it so that you maybe trained slightly faster if you were actively playing the game (i said playing, not subscribed) to discourage ghost training except in those cases where you just need it...such as 3 month + skills, alt accounts, etc.  Oh well, it was nice knowing you Eve, take care and have a good one!

 I'm probably not coming back as well.

As someon people said, I trained BS V with "ghost training" as well and it made me come back to start training and progressing on other areas.

After the last time I stopped paying I was training Command Ships V (Probably done now, takes 1.5 months or something). I was thinking on playing for one month and leaving another V skill training, but I guess not. 

' We’ve got an expansion coming out called Quantum Rising '

The ' SENIOR PRODUCER '  for Eve doesnt even know what he's in charge of producing.

Gamers making games my ass.  A vain businessman who thinks pretending to be 'just like his client base'  is a clever marketing ploy. Fail.

Originally posted by jwshaw88

I ghost trained BS 5 as my last skill before I logged out to take a break.  My character is now eligible for several higher end trains and capital ships.  I just don't see myself coming back now.  This was a nice feature because, like everyone else, I get bored after a while and go do something else.  It's not that I wanted something for nothing, but seriously, some skills take up to 9 months to train in the high end.  I don't see myself just sitting around waiting on that 9 month skill, I'm not that patient.  I suppose if they were smart, they would have coded it so that you maybe trained slightly faster if you were actively playing the game (i said playing, not subscribed) to discourage ghost training except in those cases where you just need it...such as 3 month + skills, alt accounts, etc.  Oh well, it was nice knowing you Eve, take care and have a good one!

The only skill that take that long are level 5 of the capital ship skills, and it's not like you're sitting around waiting for the skill to train...you can still play the game normally while it's going.

Maybe it's a character flaw, but, I find that if I am training a long skill like that I tend to gravitate towards other skills.  The old "hey, I can train XXXXXXX instead, and that'll be done in a week" scenario.  I guess what I'm saying is that the ability to ghost train actually "encourages" me to finish those long trains and be qualified for much higher stuff, thus enriching the depth of the eve world.  I can't recall how long BS 5 was for my guy, 3 months I think.  But BS 5 is essential for anyone who's going to keep playing the game for a long period in my opinion.  So if most people aren't getting to BS 5 and cap ships because they get impatient waiting those 3 months, what does that do to the game?  Makes the elite more elite and everyone else is tooling around in a HAC or Stealth bomber because they couldn't stomach the wait.  <shrugs>  Granted, I love having those skills to 5 myself, but that's not everything the game has to offer.  This is just my experience with it of course, but I have never talked to anyone who didn't agonize over those long trains and wish they were doing something else.  The 9 month train was just an example of how far a train could really go, but realistically, there's a lot of 3-5 month skills involved once you get the basics out of the way.

I think CCP proved definitively what we players already know: you pay for skill training.  The time factor is just an illusion; just a way of rationing out what your subscription fee pays for.

Given that ghost training was removed so CCP can make money off of skill training, why doesn't CCP go all the way and sell SP over their site for a set fee per SP?  That way, people who want to start playing with new skills instead of waiting around for 90 days can get the SP they need right away.  Plus, it will give CCP the extra revenue that they say they need in this tough Icelandic economy they talk about.

A small point I brought up earlier which was called into question, which I had to test myself because a few sources denied it,

Rested xp in some other games DOES continue while an account is inactive, I tested it.

Other mmos DO let players advance while they’re not logged in and while they’re not even subscribed. It’s called rested xp. Other mmos understand how players think. Other mmos use rested experience as a marketing tool. That rested xp gives people an incentive to log back in, gives more casual players a boost to give them the feeling they’re better keeping up with their more hardcore friends who play more often, and it has the illusion of being a ‘free’ gift, when we all know that nothing, nothing, nothing, is ‘free’ in the business world. It all goes into the bottom line calculations of overall cost and overall profit.

CCP is just plain dumb watching other companies use rested xp / ghost training to market those other games, while CCP throws it out the window.
 

maby if they would quit focusing on the lame ass PVP that drives many players away, and the blindingly boring misson system.

my playstyle they havent added any usefull game content my style is non-pvp

you get really bored getting war deced on your non-pvp guild which totally disrupts the enjoyment of the game for the whole guild

most people dont play eve as their primary game because of the uninspired and jaded developers dont support non-pvp play  as a result the game population is reduced to mostly pvp guilds

and sence non subscribers cant post on their forums  they think they are listening to their total community when actually its  just a narrow pvp nitch

I like how serious the economy is  but the free for all pvp is an oxymoron.

and yes when I canceled I set a long skill 

heres a question now what is their excuse for not having queing  now that training requires an active account?

Guess I won't get my Marauder level 5 then...Only reason why I subscribed to EVE was to train skills anyway. I never played the game except some missions now and then (not for fun, just because I needed the isk). I wasn't planning on going back anytime soon and this certainly doesn't make me want to go back more.

I'm a PvE guy and there just isn't much fun do to in EVE for me. Mining is boring and missions are not much better. Any game where you have to read a book or something to not fall asleep while playing needs to be changed.

I still might  come back though, I've been away for a long time before, maybe when that walk inside stations feture is finally in the game.

Eve is primarily a PvP game. In fact, it is the only MMO that I've played that has global non-consensual PvP.  As someone pointed out, even in high security Empire space, you can still be war-decced or ganked.  If you want to play a game where there is absolutely no risk to your character, Eve is not for you.

Saying that, I am actually a carebear in Eve but avoiding getting killed and outmaneuvring gankers is part of the fun and excitement for me.

As for what to do, my main hasn't done a mission or mined in god knows how long!  I'm too busy with invention, trading, trying to manipulate the markets, researching, looking after my POS, etc. etc. etc.

Some people come up with really off-the-wall ideas.  There's a player run Texas hold'em channel and one person did an IPO and raised 15 Biillion ISK from investors to just play poker!  Returns have been pretty good on that IPO as well!  (details myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp)Most ingame IPOs and bond issues are done by manufacturing Corps but it shows that anything goes if you've got some imagination.

The biggest problem with Eve is that you have to think too much so it's nice to have another game where you can just mindlessly whack monsters, to give yourself a break.

P.S. Skill queues are being discussed in the Dev blogs, either an end to end queue or the ability to learn two skills at the same time, splitting SPs between them. When short skill runs out, long skill gets all the SPs.

The only skill that take that long are level 5 of the capital ship skills, and it's not like you're sitting around waiting for the skill to train...you can still play the game normally while it's going.

The point you seem to be missing is that removing ghost training is making this guy think it's not worth coming back. ie. the game isn't enough on it's own to make him think it is worthwhile.
 

Well done Eve. Not.

Originally posted by Slinkus

The only skill that take that long are level 5 of the capital ship skills, and it's not like you're sitting around waiting for the skill to train...you can still play the game normally while it's going.

The point you seem to be missing is that removing ghost training is making this guy think it's not worth coming back. ie. the game isn't enough on it's own to make him think it is worthwhile.
 

Well done Eve. Not.

 

 

Someone who doesn't really want to play the game and just wants to leech SPs on an inactive account until he can see what hew shiny thing he can get and then go off again, doesn't seem like a person who has much to offer the Eve Community and we're probably better off without him

Originally posted by Galadai

Originally posted by Slinkus

The only skill that take that long are level 5 of the capital ship skills, and it's not like you're sitting around waiting for the skill to train...you can still play the game normally while it's going.

The point you seem to be missing is that removing ghost training is making this guy think it's not worth coming back. ie. the game isn't enough on it's own to make him think it is worthwhile.
 

Well done Eve. Not.

 

 

 

Someone who doesn't really want to play the game and just wants to leech SPs on an inactive account until he can see what hew shiny thing he can get and then go off again, doesn't seem like a person who has much to offer the Eve Community and we're probably better off without him

What Eve community? 

The point is the guy used to come back and pay CCP money. Now he isn't. He is not alone if this thread is anything to by and a lot of people who made use of this "bug"  (my baskside) aren't coming back then that is less money for CCP. Believe it or not the game doesn't cost nothing to make.

Originally posted by Galadai

Originally posted by Slinkus

The only skill that take that long are level 5 of the capital ship skills, and it's not like you're sitting around waiting for the skill to train...you can still play the game normally while it's going.

The point you seem to be missing is that removing ghost training is making this guy think it's not worth coming back. ie. the game isn't enough on it's own to make him think it is worthwhile.
 

Well done Eve. Not.

 

 

 

Someone who doesn't really want to play the game and just wants to leech SPs on an inactive account until he can see what hew shiny thing he can get and then go off again, doesn't seem like a person who has much to offer the Eve Community and we're probably better off without him

Rich coming from a self confessed carebear...