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Off-Topic Discussion  » Federal Ban on Gay Marriage?

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261 posts found
  frodus

Novice Member

Joined: 9/15/06
Posts: 2397

Justification is an event. Sanctification is a process.

10/23/08 7:54:21 PM#101
Originally posted by Cabe2323

I have said it before and I will say it again.  I don't care if Gay people want to marry but the Government should stay out of it. 

Once the Government gets involved and makes it a legal right then Churches who refuse to perform Gay marriages will get sued.  I am sorry but the Government shouldn't be allowed to over ride someone's religious beliefs.  That is a first amendment right and was a fundamental right of this country. 

Freedom of Religion is pretty much the largest right that this country has.  It was the reason most of the founding ancestors moved here in the first place. 

There is no reason why "Marriage" which is a religious thing can not be protected as a ceremony between a man and a woman. 

While "Civil Unions" which is a legal thing can be for both heterosexual and homosexual people. 

That is how it should be.  It is ridiculous that this is even a Federal Issue at all and once again (just like Abortion) is another example of how broken our Federal Government is. 

Just let the states compete against on another..Gay married, abortion,funds,schools,the hole nine yard I say.The feds have just about broke everything they have touched.
 

compete
Verb
[-peting, -peted]
1. to take part in (a contest or competition)
2. to strive (to achieve something or to be successful): able to compete on the international market [Latin com- together + petere to seek

Trade in material assumptions for spiritual facts and make permanent progress.

  Gorair

Novice Member

Joined: 6/15/05
Posts: 959

10/23/08 8:29:04 PM#102

i still dont see how ANY religion has anything at all to do with this.

Bigotry , ignorace , and just a big case of  " I know whats better for you than you do" yes i see that here , but no reason at all for this to have even evolved into a religious debate.

none.

Whats someone beleives isnt the case here , its can a same sex husband /wife get same tax breaks , pass on debt inheritance etc, nothing else. Nothing about any chruch / pastor / priest etc doing anything other than what their church mandates.

trying to spin this into something religious is scary , because setting a precedent like this can do horrible things when the next target happens to be your religion.

Dont beleive me ? ask any jewish person what happens when you are the target of restrictive laws.

Sad to see so many people in the USA actively and with such strong enotion wanting to travel that road.

this is that one step that could lead to disaster , I've been to a place from a time in history, and i saw a gate that told me "works makes free" .. and a path lead me to a place i will never in my life set foot on again because it was evil , ugly, and made by men. I touched a monument there , and i read the words , and somehow it became something i would die to uphold , " Never again" was all i read.

I didnt fight there , i didnt know anyone who did , but after i read the words i beleive them , dont make the same mistake that lead to that one. Dont let some fututre generation have to experience that.

 

I'm not jewish , i dont know anyone from Israel. Dont really pay much attention to them in life outside of what i see on the news so this isnt somethnig from personal history or beleif , just something we as humans need to NOT DO EVER AGAIN.

 

 

Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

  Fishermage

Novice Member

Joined: 11/23/05
Posts: 7696

"I find your lack of faith disturbing."

10/24/08 12:24:11 AM#103

The issue is PRIMARILY a religious one, since marriage is primarily a religious ceremony. If God exists, then He owns us, NOT the state. therefore He entrusts us to the principle of self ownership 9as a legal concept) in His Holy name. Therefore, if we own ourselves legally, we may contract with one another as we see fit, so long as the contract involves people capable of contracting (minors are out, so are animals -- there is no slipery slope). Therefore, in that we are entitled to that and religious freedom, if MY faith tells me it is okay for gays to marry, or yes if it says it is okay for groups to form similar contracts, the state has no compelling interest to stop such contracting.

No rights are violated in the making of such bonds and contracts and therefore, I am for it.

No state ought to be able to prevent people from forming this Holy contract.

  User Deleted
10/24/08 12:36:07 AM#104

Someone, I think it was Gorair, made an excellent point earlier.

 

It is the tyranny of the majority against a small minority of people who want to be let alone.

 

To love, freely, and forge legal relationships with a person's lifemate.

  Wickersham

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/19/06
Posts: 2359

10/24/08 2:35:07 AM#105

If the state recognizes a person's freedom to choose thier own sexual orientation than it has no choice but to grant people equality under the law.

What is recognized as married in law in one instance must be recognized as legal all instances despite sexual orientation.

Of course, the state does have the right to refuse to recognize that a person should be free to make their own choices in life but I can guarantee all of you that you will not like living under that state:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/11/15/AR2006111500138.html

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2006-04-19-forced-marriage_x.htm

http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/9707/08/israel.missionaries/index.html

 

"The liberties and resulting economic prosperity that YOU take for granted were granted by those "dead guys"

  User Deleted
10/24/08 3:31:39 AM#106
Originally posted by Gorair

Whats someone beleives isnt the case here , its can a same sex husband /wife get same tax breaks , pass on debt inheritance etc, nothing else. Nothing about any chruch / pastor / priest etc doing anything other than what their church mandates.

This is exactly it. We have already gone through this in Spain, where gay marriage is now legal and accepted by everyone (except the fascists) and it's clearly nothing religious, like is not religious abortion or divorce. It's to assure that everyone has the same CIVIL rights.

Religious people can have their believes and act accordingly, but the civil society has to move on.

  User Deleted
10/24/08 4:19:49 AM#107

The main issue as I see it is a matter of civil rights more so than religious doctrine. If Jack marries John and for some reason later on Jack divorces John or Jack dies. John just wants to make sure he gets the same rights as if Jack had married Jill. Jill would be entitled to the alimony or life insurance benefits, etc and John wants to be sure he has those same rights. Gays are going to get married whether it's here in the US or overseas. The question is the legality of the marriage in the eyes of the US legal system. As far as I'm concerned, they should be treated with parity with traditional marriages. As far as religious doctrine goes, that's up to the individual religions if they want to recognize gay marriages or not and NOT be the only factor in the legal recognition of any marriage...gay or traditional

 

  Eckobah

Warhammer Online Correspondent

Joined: 9/18/08
Posts: 16

"It''s a dog eat dog world out there!!... and I happen to be wearing milk bone underwear!"

10/24/08 9:27:07 AM#108

The problem I have always had with this gay marriage dribble that people have had is this. Most of them say that the bible say it's an abomination and that is why they appose it in the first place. But the fact is that Christanity says it's an abomination and not all bibles or religions oppose gay marriage. The US has the "Seperation of Church and State". If anyone lets any religious policy influence them into making specific laws then there is no longer seperation of church and state. On the policy of gay marriage the state really has no basis for gettin involved.

The only true reason any group or individual has given is invalid. "Protection of the sanctity of marriage"... WTH??? Are they saying that gay couples can not have a true marriage? Because I believe they can. Sanctity of a marriage is all about being true to each other. To love, honor, and cherish. I firmly believe gay couples can do this. And I have seen quite a few "normal" marriages that could not do this.

Even though I am not gay or bi-sexual, I fully support gays having the right to marry. Not because of any other reason other than it is just right. We must keep the seperation of church and state. We must give rights to those who have them. Those who pass laws forbidding gay marriage are just letting the religious set policy for them. And anyone who does this needs to be put out of office.

Eckobah

Quote of the day: "Make me president... first thing I will do is fire everyone in Washington" hahaha

  Briansho

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/05/06
Posts: 4789

Functionless Art is Simply Tolerated Vandalism...We Are The Vandals.

10/24/08 9:41:48 AM#109

In my opinion the govt needs to stop intruding on everyone's lives. Whats next? Will they regulate how much gas you can buy? What kind of movies you are allowed to watch? What kind of games your kids are allowed to play? Where you are allowed to travel? What type of car you are allowed to buy? They need to stop with this Nanny state stuff and stop assuming they know whats best for everyone. Everyone's situation and life is different.

Don't be terrorized! You're more likely to die of a car accident, drowning, fire, or murder! More people die every year from prescription drugs than terrorism LOL!

  Sharajat

Novice Member

Joined: 12/14/07
Posts: 939

10/24/08 9:45:26 AM#110
Originally posted by Dracus
Race and Marriage are two separate items.  Marriage is based on religion which is shared by many races.

 

Once again, for every one of you that believe this - "which religion?"

Simple question.  If marriage is religious, which religion?  

In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own.

-Thomas Jefferson

  Dekron

Old School

Joined: 10/01/03
Posts: 9540

10/24/08 9:46:03 AM#111
Originally posted by Eckobah

We must give rights to those who have them. Those who pass laws forbidding gay marriage are just letting the religious set policy for them.

As I have said previously, I am neither against, nor for gay marriage. I do not care either way. But, is there not a line to be drawn somewhere? Someone already posted that once marriage is "redefined" it will be done so again and again for every group who wants to push the bounds. Mormons will push for polygamy. Muslims will push for marrying children. Zoophiliacs will want to marry an animal.

Where does it end?

  Sharajat

Novice Member

Joined: 12/14/07
Posts: 939

10/24/08 9:48:07 AM#112
Originally posted by Dekron
Originally posted by Eckobah

We must give rights to those who have them. Those who pass laws forbidding gay marriage are just letting the religious set policy for them.

As I have said previously, I am neither against, nor for gay marriage. I do not care either way. But, is there not a line to be drawn somewhere? Someone already posted that once marriage is "redefined" it will be done so again and again for every group who wants to push the bounds. Mormons will push for polygamy. Muslims will push for marrying children. Zoophiliacs will want to marry an animal.

Where does it end?

 

Here:

www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/slippery-slope.html

In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own.

-Thomas Jefferson

  Dekron

Old School

Joined: 10/01/03
Posts: 9540

10/24/08 9:55:14 AM#113
Originally posted by Sharajat
Originally posted by Dekron
Originally posted by Eckobah

We must give rights to those who have them. Those who pass laws forbidding gay marriage are just letting the religious set policy for them.

As I have said previously, I am neither against, nor for gay marriage. I do not care either way. But, is there not a line to be drawn somewhere? Someone already posted that once marriage is "redefined" it will be done so again and again for every group who wants to push the bounds. Mormons will push for polygamy. Muslims will push for marrying children. Zoophiliacs will want to marry an animal.

Where does it end?

 

Here:

www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/slippery-slope.html

It's not a fallacy when it has already happened in other parts of the world. That doesn't apply to this argument. Nice try.

  Sharajat

Novice Member

Joined: 12/14/07
Posts: 939

10/24/08 9:56:18 AM#114
Originally posted by Dekron 

It's not a fallacy when it has already happened in other parts of the world. That doesn't apply to this argument. Nice try.

So polygamy, zoophilia and pedophilia have been swept up into marriage in other parts of the world?  Following from legalizing gay marriage?  

You do have documentation for this wild claim, correct?  Because most of the times when I see those things legal, I find they are based on archaic definitions of marriage that flow 'from religion.'

In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own.

-Thomas Jefferson

  Fishermage

Novice Member

Joined: 11/23/05
Posts: 7696

"I find your lack of faith disturbing."

10/24/08 10:25:35 AM#115
Originally posted by Briansho

In my opinion the govt needs to stop intruding on everyone's lives. Whats next? Will they regulate how much gas you can buy? What kind of movies you are allowed to watch? What kind of games your kids are allowed to play? Where you are allowed to travel? What type of car you are allowed to buy? They need to stop with this Nanny state stuff and stop assuming they know whats best for everyone. Everyone's situation and life is different.

 

How about what to do with your money? Does the government have the right to forcibly take someone's earnings and "spread the wealth around?"

How about health care? If you give health care over to government, you have given government effective ownership over your body.

How about education? If you give education over to government, you give government effective ownership over your mind.

  Gameloading

Novice Member

Joined: 2/27/04
Posts: 14173

10/24/08 10:34:29 AM#116
Originally posted by Dekron
Originally posted by Eckobah

We must give rights to those who have them. Those who pass laws forbidding gay marriage are just letting the religious set policy for them.

As I have said previously, I am neither against, nor for gay marriage. I do not care either way. But, is there not a line to be drawn somewhere? Someone already posted that once marriage is "redefined" it will be done so again and again for every group who wants to push the bounds. Mormons will push for polygamy. Muslims will push for marrying children. Zoophiliacs will want to marry an animal.

Where does it end?

Here is a silly thought: How about you look at the nations that have already allowed gay marriage. To they people to marry children? Not really.

Why should the line be drawn before gay marriage? Does it hurt anyone? Not really. There are all arguments why we shouldn't allow people to marry children or marry an animal, but there is not a single valid argument against gay marriage. Make no mistake, this is nothing more than the religious people trying to enforce their religion onto other people.

  Dekron

Old School

Joined: 10/01/03
Posts: 9540

10/24/08 10:42:50 AM#117
Originally posted by Sharajat
Originally posted by Dekron 

It's not a fallacy when it has already happened in other parts of the world. That doesn't apply to this argument. Nice try.

So polygamy, zoophilia and pedophilia have been swept up into marriage in other parts of the world?  Following from legalizing gay marriage? 

Not from legalizing gay marriage, but that are allowable. Norway has, however, legalized polygamy after they legalized gay marriage. Polygamy is allowable in numerous countries, it is allowable to marry an animal in India and Sudan, for example, and many countries in the Middle East allow pedophilia.

  Dekron

Old School

Joined: 10/01/03
Posts: 9540

10/24/08 10:46:17 AM#118
Originally posted by Gameloading 

Why should the line be drawn before gay marriage? Does it hurt anyone? Not really. There are all arguments why we shouldn't allow people to marry children or marry an animal, but there is not a single valid argument against gay marriage. Make no mistake, this is nothing more than the religious people trying to enforce their religion onto other people.

Again, look above. I am making no case against banning or legalizing gay marriage. I don't care either way. I simply asked a question of where a line should be drawn.Should we allow everyone to marry whomever, rather whatever, they want?


  Fishermage

Novice Member

Joined: 11/23/05
Posts: 7696

"I find your lack of faith disturbing."

10/24/08 10:50:46 AM#119
Originally posted by Dekron
Originally posted by Sharajat
Originally posted by Dekron 

It's not a fallacy when it has already happened in other parts of the world. That doesn't apply to this argument. Nice try.

So polygamy, zoophilia and pedophilia have been swept up into marriage in other parts of the world?  Following from legalizing gay marriage? 

Not from legalizing gay marriage, but that are allowable. Norway has, however, legalized polygamy after they legalized gay marriage. Polygamy is allowable in numerous countries, it is allowable to marry an animal in India and Sudan, for example, and many countries in the Middle East allow pedophilia.

I think that's more of an issue over who may enter into legal contracts and who may not. As long as children and animals are not allowed to contractm they can't enter into marriage. many countries in the middle east view children as the property of their parents, so that is how it occurs that you can have child marriages.

As far as I have seen none of them allow gay marriage either.

I still feel the question is self ownership. If you own yourself, and have sufficient sentience (animals and children do not) you may make what legal associations you like, as long as you do not violate the rights of others. I don't see how gay marriage or polygamy hurts those rights.

  Sharajat

Novice Member

Joined: 12/14/07
Posts: 939

10/24/08 11:02:06 AM#120
Originally posted by Dekron
Originally posted by Sharajat
Originally posted by Dekron 

It's not a fallacy when it has already happened in other parts of the world. That doesn't apply to this argument. Nice try.

So polygamy, zoophilia and pedophilia have been swept up into marriage in other parts of the world?  Following from legalizing gay marriage? 

Not from legalizing gay marriage, but that are allowable. Norway has, however, legalized polygamy after they legalized gay marriage. Polygamy is allowable in numerous countries, it is allowable to marry an animal in India and Sudan, for example, and many countries in the Middle East allow pedophilia.

Yes, they do.  And why do they do that?  THEY ARE OPERATING BASED ON THEIR RELIGION'S DEFINITION OF MARRIAGE.  

Religion defines marriage, according to you.  The polygamists and pedophiles who can legally marry can do so because of religion.  That's the 'religious definition of marriage.' 

You want your religion.  You want your traditional definition.  There it is.  Men marrying 12 year old girls.  Men having multiple wives.  It's traditional.  It's religious. 

All your arguments FOR your definition of marriage are arguments for their marriage too.  I can equally post, by your very own slippary slope logic "Well if we limit marriage to tradition and religion, men will be able to marry 12 year olds or have 15 wives."  

Also, you cite Norway.   But marriage to a second wife or husband is ILLEGAL in Norway.  

How do they then have a polygamy problem?  Well it turns out, traditional religious marriage.   They decided it was so valuable they should recognize it.  

www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2008/aug/08081404.html

It's traditional.  It's religious.  It's not a redefinition of anything.  

In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own.

-Thomas Jefferson

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