When the conservatives voted for Bush/Cheney and his war on Iraq, to me they already forfeited their right to cry about tax increase.  Did any of them honestly think waging another war is gonna be paid for by someone else?  Now don't try to distribute cost among all Americans, because everyone knows that rich people enjoy more representation in Washington through lobbyists working on their behalf, and it's poor folks' sons and daughters dying on the battlefield.

Riches also can afford to hire lawyers/accountants to search for loopholes in tax codes to avoid paying more taxes.  Even if Obama's plan fell through, I bet many wealthy are still gonna pay less than their share just because of loopholes.   If there is no loophole, then those lobbyists you hire aren't doing their jobs.

So if Obama sounds like a socialist and is gaining more support, it's the result of this increasing gap between haves and have-nots.  Don't think social unrest is possible in the U.S.?  Well think again.  If the gap continues to widen and the middle class continue to shrink, anything can happen.  So it's not the time for the wealthy to be selfish.  This country has been good to you, and to pay more back to help those left behind is the partiotic thing to do. (yes, I agree with Biden on this one, I much rather pay US government more than spend it on entertainment which ultimately find their way to China or Middle East) 

Originally posted by Hellmarauder

When the conservatives voted for Bush/Cheney and his war on Iraq, to me they already forfeited their right to cry about tax increase.  Did any of them honestly think waging another war is gonna be paid for by someone else?  Now don't try to distribute cost among all Americans, because everyone knows that rich people enjoy more representation in Washington through lobbyists working on their behalf, and it's poor folks' sons and daughters dying on the battlefield.

Riches also can afford to hire lawyers/accountants to search for loopholes in tax codes to avoid paying more taxes.  Even if Obama's plan fell through, I bet many wealthy are still gonna pay less than their share just because of loopholes.   If there is no loophole, then those lobbyists you hire aren't doing their jobs.

So if Obama sounds like a socialist and is gaining more support, it's the result of this increasing gap between haves and have-nots.  Don't think social unrest is possible in the U.S.?  Well think again.  If the gap continues to widen and the middle class continue to shrink, anything can happen.  So it's not the time for the wealthy to be selfish.  This country has been good to you, and to pay more back to help those left behind is the partiotic thing to do. (yes, I agree with Biden on this one, I much rather pay US government more than spend it on entertainment which ultimately find their way to China or Middle East) 

1. I didn't vote for  Bush. 2. Do you think Obama is going to suddenly stop war? nooo he plans on making MORE war, he wants to start war where we currently are not at war, and move the troops around. He didn't wnt to remove troops from Iraq nor did he want to give an "artificial timeline" until it became very unpopular with the crowds. He says alot of differnt things to differnt people. He tells you whatever  he thinks you want to hear.  He wants to sell the energy we produce for ourselves to CHINA.. Did you not hear him in the debate specifically say this? LOL!
 

Obama does not want to remove troops from iraq:

www.youtube.com/watch

Barack Obama -- 2009 Pakistan War

www.youtube.com/watch

PRO WAR Barack Obama Jeremiah Wright

www.youtube.com/watch

Originally posted by Thrakk

Bump this thread once with a big smile if you agree

Disenfranchised republicans can move to another country when Obama wins (assuming they would accept them). This also will not bother me. They can take their business and grumpyness with them.

Show your grin if you think America, governed by Obama AND THE PEOPLE, will be just fine despite what the cynics say day after day

That is all.

Until people become so pissed off they take the country back by force. Who's going to stop them? The sweet liberals? GL with that fight, I see a lot of purse swinging.

Originally posted by Hellmarauder

When the conservatives voted for Bush/Cheney and his war on Iraq, to me they already forfeited their right to cry about tax increase.  Did any of them honestly think waging another war is gonna be paid for by someone else?  Now don't try to distribute cost among all Americans, because everyone knows that rich people enjoy more representation in Washington through lobbyists working on their behalf, and it's poor folks' sons and daughters dying on the battlefield.

Riches also can afford to hire lawyers/accountants to search for loopholes in tax codes to avoid paying more taxes.  Even if Obama's plan fell through, I bet many wealthy are still gonna pay less than their share just because of loopholes.   If there is no loophole, then those lobbyists you hire aren't doing their jobs.

So if Obama sounds like a socialist and is gaining more support, it's the result of this increasing gap between haves and have-nots.  Don't think social unrest is possible in the U.S.?  Well think again.  If the gap continues to widen and the middle class continue to shrink, anything can happen.  So it's not the time for the wealthy to be selfish.  This country has been good to you, and to pay more back to help those left behind is the partiotic thing to do. (yes, I agree with Biden on this one, I much rather pay US government more than spend it on entertainment which ultimately find their way to China or Middle East) 

The first part about the poor folk's sons and daughters is just flat out wrong www.heritage.org/Research/NationalSecurity/cda05-08.cfm

The household income of recruits generally matches the income distribution of the American population. There are slightly higher proportions of recruits from the middle class and slightly lower proportions from low-income brackets. However, the proportion of high-income recruits rose to a disproportionately high level after the war on ter­rorism began, as did the proportion of highly edu­cated enlistees. All of the demographic evidence that we analyzed contradicts the pro-draft case.

The second part i do agree with, you can bet the millionaires in the Congress and Senate will not be parting with there wealth.

And now for your third part...Yes social unrest is coming when you start taking peoples wealth from them they tend to get prissy about it. If not outright vindictave, hell i only make 30k a year and the thought of socialism makes me want to go on strike and force the rest of the sheeple pay my way. 

Hmm helping those left behind who have the same chance to make something of themselves but refuse ?

 What about the freedom to fail? As well as succeed? Is that not a personal choice? has it not been drilled into our heads that all are equal?

Unless you fail in the  attempt to better yourself is the new standard?

The first requisite of a good citizen in this republic of ours is that he shall be able and willing to pull his own weight.
Theodore Roosevelt

Probably the greatest harm done by vast wealth is the harm that we of moderate means do ourselves when we let the vices of envy and hatred enter deep into our own natures.
Theodore Roosevelt
 

It is hard to fail, but it is worse never to have tried to succeed. In this life we get nothing save by effort.
Theodore Roosevelt
 

It is difficult to make our material condition better by the best law, but it is easy enough to ruin it by bad laws.
Theodore Roosevelt
 

A wise and frugal government, which shall leave men free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor and bread it has earned - this is the sum of good government.
Thomas Jefferson

I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them.
Thomas Jefferson
 

The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not.
Thomas Jefferson

 You cannot build character and courage by taking away a man's initiative and independence.
Abraham Lincoln

Things may come to those who wait, but only the things left by those who hustle.
Abraham Lincoln

That some achieve great success, is proof to all that others can achieve it as well.
Abraham Lincoln

Let not him who is houseless pull down the house of another, but let him work diligently and build one for himself, thus by example assuring that his own shall be safe from violence when built.
Abraham Lincoln

America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves.
Abraham Lincoln

Just keep on with your class warfare and class envy there is karma and what comes around goes around.

The God who gave us life gave us liberty at the same time. The hand of force may destroy but cannot disjoin them.” –Thomas Jefferson
 I will never give up on the American dream or its people.

Great post BushMonkey.

Originally posted by tillamook

Originally posted by Vanpry

He'll either fix it or put the final nail in the coffin.  If he fixes it great if not I have my guns.

guns for what?

Well I don't know about Vanpry's intentions, but it looks to me that if Obama implements his procedures and they fail at the intended affect, we may be in for a long and bumpy slide towards becoming the second communistic superpower to threaten the world. I can't say I would expect to have a great deal of impact in that direction, but I would not roll over and submit to such either.

This is class warfare and Im ok with that.  It's been a long time coming.  I guess the folks who don't make hundreds of thousands of dollars a year in the McCain camp think if they support the "Massa," Massa will make sure theys still gots a job.

A job where pay never adjusts for the rate of inflation, where your standard of living is constantly dropping.  To Republicans, more $8/hr jobs are "progress." 

I have no sympathy for people making over 250K who are going to have to pay an additional 3%.  Boo f'ing hoo.  Try living in Detroit and see how lucky you are.

Yes, here is the Change promised by Obama...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/uselection2008/barackobama/3219308/Barack-Obama-vows-to-change-the-world.html

"The supremely confident demeanour and exalted rhetoric of the Democratic nominee at a New Hampshire event betrayed that he is a man convinced he is poised to make history."

And we have been told for the last 8 years that Bush is arrogant?

Here's more change...for the better?

http://cbs2chicago.com/local/nation.of.islam.2.843209.html

"The Nation of Islam, a secretive movement generally closed to outsiders, has planned a rare open-to-the public event at its Chicago-based headquarters in what the Minister Louis Farrakhan deemed a "new beginning" for the group. "
 

Yes, because we know how proud to be American that group is.  Gosh It sounds like there is a new change coming ...do they know something we do not?

oh yes, another one....this change is just u know...a programming error ...

http://www.unionleader.com/article.aspx?headline=Obama%3a+%27You+cannot+let+up%27&articleId=1a7835c3-2468-4e6c-8d56-7253c033232a

They scrapped the national anthem and pledge to make time for a hollywood speaker lol.  Stupid patriotism anyway right?  Who needs that dumb constitution!

Details matter. Words matter.  Truth matters.  Character matters.

Bush has all but destroyed America from the inside out. On his way out the door, he has taken down the economy with his open fascism and fear-mongering.

Between fascism and socialism I will take the latter, thank you very much.

It would be great if we didn't have to pick between the two though.

Originally posted by Gazenthia

Bush has all but destroyed America from the inside out. On his way out the door, he has taken down the economy with his open fascism and fear-mongering.

Between fascism and socialism I will take the latter, thank you very much.

It would be great if we didn't have to pick between the two though.

whatever happened to freedom?

National Socialism
–noun the principles and practices of the Nazi party in Germany.
dictionary.reference.com/search

fas·cism /?fæ??z?m/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[fash-iz-uhm] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun 1. (sometimes initial capital letter) a governmental system led by a dictator having complete power, forcibly suppressing opposition and criticism, regimenting all industry, commerce, etc., and emphasizing an aggressive nationalism and often racism.
2. (sometimes initial capital letter) the philosophy, principles, or methods of fascism.
3. (initial capital letter) a fascist movement, esp. the one established by Mussolini in Italy 1922–43
dictionary.reference.com/search

 what is the difference?

Originally posted by wonderwhoits

This is class warfare and Im ok with that.  It's been a long time coming.  I guess the folks who don't make hundreds of thousands of dollars a year in the McCain camp think if they support the "Massa," Massa will make sure theys still gots a job.

A job where pay never adjusts for the rate of inflation, where your standard of living is constantly dropping.  To Republicans, more $8/hr jobs are "progress." 

I have no sympathy for people making over 250K who are going to have to pay an additional 3%.  Boo f'ing hoo.  Try living in Detroit and see how lucky you are.

 

Let not him who is houseless pull down the house of another, but let him work diligently and build one for himself, thus by example assuring that his own shall be safe from violence when built.
Abraham Lincoln
 

I wonder if you understand the meaning behind that quote?

Fascism:  corporations control the government.

It is why banks get bailed-out.  It is how defense contractors, corporate farmers, pharmaceutical companies, and finance control, own, and contribute to both parties.

It is something we just have to accept, unless we started a third party, but the third party would also eventually get bought.

So you have to change the election laws.  LOL.

Communism:  government controls the corporations.

The government purchased equity stakes in numerous investment houses, now commercial banks --investment banking is over in the USA-- using "preferred stock."  The governmetn expects 5% and 8%, and the structure is really just a loan. 

What We Really Have?

Socialism from the rich and capitalism, free-market for 95% of the public.

 Here here to Obama and lol to McCain/Palin who are on pace to have the worst election result since lol...I can't even remember.

Originally posted by Thrakk

Show your grin if you think America, governed by Obama AND THE PEOPLE, will be just fine despite what the cynics say day after day

That is all.

I don't know that it will be fine at all, but that is more due to what has been set in motion. The majority of the "cynics" that I have seen, I assume you mean of Obama, repeat what the television has told them. I've been watching them, they are regurgitating lines verbatim from the radio. Latest blaming Obama for the economy. They do not think for themselves, and are sheeple.

Originally posted by Gazenthia

Bush has all but destroyed America from the inside out. On his way out the door, he has taken down the economy with his open fascism and fear-mongering.

 

Keep in mind you are talking bad about Obama's family here! didn't you hear they are all cousins!

Originally posted by declaredemer

Fascism:  corporations control the government.

It is why banks get bailed-out.  It is how defense contractors, corporate farmers, pharmaceutical companies, and finance control, own, and contribute to both parties.

It is something we just have to accept, unless we started a third party, but the third party would also eventually get bought.

So you have to change the election laws.  LOL.

Communism:  government controls the corporations.

The government purchased equity stakes in numerous investment houses, now commercial banks --investment banking is over in the USA-- using "preferred stock."  The governmetn expects 5% and 8%, and the structure is really just a loan. 

 

---

What We Really Have?

Socialism from the rich and capitalism, free-market for 95% of the public.

No, we have full blown fascism.I'm trying to spot where exactly the government has actually "controlled" the corporations.

1) Those loans are actually no-strings attached gifts. The government tells you it expects something back. It won't happen.

2) The Big 3 and AIG keep getting tens of billions of dollars pretty much out of black mail. Note that they are not allowed to "fail"= a rigged market.

3) WaMus take over was actually criminal in nature, and led to significant distrust of the market place.

4) The bail out bill was pushed on congress under threat of martial law and tanks in the cities by the following Monday. Pushed out, and handled by, guess who?

Devil and Bushmonkey, if you are replying to me, it looks like you could be since your names often appear under my posts, I have you on block and can't see your message.

Originally posted by Gazenthia

Originally posted by declaredemer

Fascism:  corporations control the government.

It is why banks get bailed-out.  It is how defense contractors, corporate farmers, pharmaceutical companies, and finance control, own, and contribute to both parties.

It is something we just have to accept, unless we started a third party, but the third party would also eventually get bought.

So you have to change the election laws.  LOL.

Communism:  government controls the corporations.

The government purchased equity stakes in numerous investment houses, now commercial banks --investment banking is over in the USA-- using "preferred stock."  The governmetn expects 5% and 8%, and the structure is really just a loan. 

 

---

What We Really Have?

Socialism from the rich and capitalism, free-market for 95% of the public.

No, we have full blown fascism. There is absolutely no free market to speak of. You haven't been catching all of the news.

1) Those loans are actually no-strings attached gifts. The government tells you it expects something back. It won't happen.

2) The Big 3 and AIG keep getting tens of billions of dollars pretty much out of black mail. Note that they are not allowed to "fail"= a rigged market.

Yes, and who in congress has the most money in AIG? Kennedy= $2m invested and Pelosi $500k .. last time they were made to turn the information over.

3) WaMus take over was actually criminal in nature, and led to significant distrust of the market place.

4) The bail out bill was pushed on congress under threat of martial law and tanks in the cities by the following Monday. Pushed out, and handled by, guess who?

Pelosi Declared martial law in congress.

www.youtube.com/watch

Devil and Bushmonkey, if you are replying to me, it looks like you could be since your name keeps appearing under me, I have you on block and can't see your posts.

It's okay close your eyes the facts still remain. Even if you don;t see them they still exist.

Guess what kind of change Obama brings to you? You give the people who caused this mess absolute power!  DODD + PELOSI + OBAMA =  ABSOLUTE POWER.

Originally posted by Gazenthia 

Devil and Bushmonkey, if you are replying to me, it looks like you could be since your names often appear under my posts, I have you on block and can't see your message.

^ Another shining example of the open and free tolerance of  the Left in America.

Originally posted by Gazenthia

Originally posted by declaredemer

Fascism:  corporations control the government.

It is why banks get bailed-out.  It is how defense contractors, corporate farmers, pharmaceutical companies, and finance control, own, and contribute to both parties.

It is something we just have to accept, unless we started a third party, but the third party would also eventually get bought.

So you have to change the election laws.  LOL.

Communism:  government controls the corporations.

The government purchased equity stakes in numerous investment houses, now commercial banks --investment banking is over in the USA-- using "preferred stock."  The governmetn expects 5% and 8%, and the structure is really just a loan. 

 

---

What We Really Have?

Socialism from the rich and capitalism, free-market for 95% of the public.

No, we have full blown fascism.I'm trying to spot where exactly the government has actually "controlled" the corporations.

1) Those loans are actually no-strings attached gifts. The government tells you it expects something back. It won't happen.

2) The Big 3 and AIG keep getting tens of billions of dollars pretty much out of black mail. Note that they are not allowed to "fail"= a rigged market.

3) WaMus take over was actually criminal in nature, and led to significant distrust of the market place.

4) The bail out bill was pushed on congress under threat of martial law and tanks in the cities by the following Monday. Pushed out, and handled by, guess who?

Devil and Bushmonkey, if you are replying to me, it looks like you could be since your names often appear under my posts, I have you on block and can't see your message.

It's a joke that you libs think Bush is fascism.  If the dems have a super majority like they're hoping for...you'll see true facsism.  Too bad your own head is stuck in sand pretending it's not so.  You are conflicted but for some reason won't admit to your own conclusions about the truth. 

"I feel the conflict within you, let go of your hate."  - Luke

Originally posted by BushMonkey

Originally posted by wonderwhoits

This is class warfare and Im ok with that.  It's been a long time coming.  I guess the folks who don't make hundreds of thousands of dollars a year in the McCain camp think if they support the "Massa," Massa will make sure theys still gots a job.

A job where pay never adjusts for the rate of inflation, where your standard of living is constantly dropping.  To Republicans, more $8/hr jobs are "progress." 

I have no sympathy for people making over 250K who are going to have to pay an additional 3%.  Boo f'ing hoo.  Try living in Detroit and see how lucky you are.

 

 

Let not him who is houseless pull down the house of another, but let him work diligently and build one for himself, thus by example assuring that his own shall be safe from violence when built.
Abraham Lincoln
 

I wonder if you understand the meaning behind that quote?

Too bad hard work is barely worth 8 dollars an hour these days, otherwise that ancient nugget might mean more than a pile of shit in the globalized economy of the 21st centrury.  Wonder what Lincoln woulda said about times where the hardest working people are the poorest.

Sounds a lot like throwback times don't it?  Like slaves?

But don't worry- vote republican and pease the Massa so's we can keep our jobs. 

Originally posted by Faxxer

It's a joke that you libs think Bush is fascism.  If the dems have a super majority like they're hoping for...you'll see true facsism.  Too bad your own head is stuck in sand pretending it's not so.  You are conflicted but for some reason won't admit to your own conclusions about the truth. 

"I feel the conflict within you, let go of your hate."  - Luke

Let's see

1) I am called a "lib"

2) Assumes I solely blame Bush of fascism.

3) Denial that Bush is involved in any act of fascism.

4) Undermining of #3 by implying Bush has committed acts of fascism, but not as large as another party will.

5) Implies that I do not believe the democrats will commit fascism

6) Implies that since the next party will be worse, I should be happy with what we got.


And you too can join my block list faxxer. I'm tired of being called names, having words put in my mouth, and all other manner of BS from you because you have something to prove and an agenda to push. Enough.

Originally posted by Gazenthia

Originally posted by Faxxer

It's a joke that you libs think Bush is fascism.  If the dems have a super majority like they're hoping for...you'll see true facsism.  Too bad your own head is stuck in sand pretending it's not so.  You are conflicted but for some reason won't admit to your own conclusions about the truth. 

"I feel the conflict within you, let go of your hate."  - Luke

Let's see

1) I am called a "lib"

2) Assumes I solely blame Bush of fascism.

3) Denial that Bush is involved in any act of fascism.

4) Undermining of #3 by implying Bush has committed acts of fascism, but not as large as another party will.

5) Implies that I do not believe the democrats will commit fascism

6) Implies that since the next party will be worse, I should be happy with what we got.


And you too can join my block list faxxer. I'm tired of being called names, having words put in my mouth, and all other manner of BS from you because you have something to prove and an agenda to push. Enough.

Guess she wants to talk to herself. Unless you "say yes I agree with you" she blocks you! no matter how wrong her facts are! So who wants to go on to forums to discuss issues with themselves?
 

First, I am an old school working class raised British socialist. Now I always get perplexed when Americans mention the word `socialism` as if it's some monolithic ideology associated with atheism and Joseph Stalin et al. There is not and has never been `socialism`, but `socialisms" with the firm emphasis on the `s`.

Democratic socialism

Christian socialism

The communistic democratic socialism of the Paris Commune versus the authoritarian nationalistsic socialism of Stalin verus Plato's Republic communism etc and so on

Humanistic socialism verus determinstic socialism etc

Now my socialism is democratic and tolerant of anti-socialist doctrines; essentially based upon the priniple of the public good which is why the low-taxes brigade come across as a bunch of selfish and deluded Robinson Crusoes. That's why I support the British NHS (national health service) as a successful socialist institution.

I remember before Iraq war 2  speaking to some Republican mates ( I mostly work with Americans btw, and actually I love American culture overall) and I remember them saying  that an NHS in the US would bankrupt the economy etc. Now look at the money spent on the adventure in Iraq, or the money being use to bail out the banks and Wall Street. Funny how they quickly find the cash when it benefits the rich and privileged.

I support Obama, even though he aint socialist enough ( e.g an NHS and massive redistribution of wealth from the rich to the working classes) because he at least understands that his duty is to support the American people and not a rich and incestous clique of monstrous misanthropes.

Love America, hope Obama makes it a better place. If he fails, well I still love America because of Marvel, DC Comics, Edgar Allan Poe, Hawthorne, Melville, Lovecraft, Coen Brothers, Star Trek etc.

Regards

Melmoth 

If we do not learn from history it will repeat itself.

Queen of England and Hitler:

"We are socialists, we are enemies of today's capitalistic economic system for the exploitation of the economically weak, with its unfair salaries, with its unseemly evaluation of a human being according to wealth and property instead of responsibility and performance, and we are all determined to destroy this system under all conditions." ~ Adolf Hitler

Here's the problem with Socialism...

America was like a lightly moderated sandbox mmo back in "the day", sometime before the 1900's. Some were much more successful in that system, those who weren't cried to the mods for nerfs... when the mods didn't listen, they cried for more mods who would listen and regulate the other mods. Fast forward to today we have a game that punishes you for being successful in an already heavily moderated format... and the have nots are still whinning for change to the structure of the game. Now post patch 2.0.0.8 we'll be looking at an entirely different game altogether, one intended to make everything easy mode, but in fact will create nothing but crap.

Nothing is free in life, I don't want to pay higher taxes to accommodate your inabilities and/ or unwillingness to accomplish what others have. The problem I see is a lot of "have nots" see the Paris Hiltons of the world and assume that all rich people inherited their "excess", when in fact most of those $250k a years (not my idea of rich) worked their asses off to create the businesses you are now employed at... What will happen when you decide to punish the successful people who create jobs? What will happen when the successful, self motivated people who create jobs have nowhere left to run because the entire world thinks socialism is the answer?

The American dream has changed to a sense of entitlement without having to accomplish anything... life in easy mode.