Now I always have had a great skeptic against companies who decide not to make official forums. Sure, there are a few recomended forums, but essentially they are in the hand of independed people.  Customers posting on these independent forums just dont have any equal standing to the forum owners/mods. Now if mods in an official forum start to ban people and lockup threads mindlessly, customers would quit the game at some point, so there is always a certain balance of interests between posting customers and mods.

Now I have noticed all of those recommended forums where Mythic devs appear are basically for fanbois and every critic comment is locked. Usually I post ony here, but I heard enough from guild mates who tried to discuss or comment on negative things, and word has it most of those unofficial forums where Mythic mods go to are highly censored. Any critique gets locked and bans are used fast and often.

Personally I always felt the freedom of speech was one of the most important parts of a free society, as long as not any person is attacked.

For me its one big negative for WAR, if there is no place for paying customers to say their opinon, sure to be heard/read by Devs - at least now and then - I feel not really respected as customer. It just gives me a very ill feeling to have to rely on forums in the hand of other private persons who can treat me like ever they wish. And usually those forums are run by rabid fanbois of the worst sort.

Originally posted by Yunbei

Personally I always felt the freedom of speech was one of the most important parts of a free society, as long as not any person is attacked.

And this is fine, however as you're aware many forum ludites take this to nth degree, and way over the top.

The 'www.warhammeralliance.com' forum is pretty tight with it's modding but not in a bad way.

If some idiot just post a rant or some b*****x it gets locked. If they actually take the time create a meaningful post with thoughts/solutions etc. they stay.

After all, we know how bad the oficial WoW forums are... 

You can leave ANY type of feedback that you want ingame with WAR. If you go to the help menu theres a Feedback option where you can leave feedback about the game. Mythic does read all of thos just as they did in DaOC. So if you truelly want to tell Mythic how you feel or give them suggestions then you can INGAME, no forum  required.

It's all in the marketing game.

Announce the 500 K created accounts on the first day (handy covering the open Beta free distrubuted keys) and ...  Just as the game slips on amazon.com, announce the 750 K created accounts.

Only support "3rd party" "objective" forums (while being handled by the most rabid fanboys since 2006).

Cut the general chat system so players don't complain in game.

Have a nice PR chat with the major internet reviewers and have EA sit behind you doens't hurt either. IGN giving a 9 is a knee fall to the desperate industry wanting to have a broadened game market for the PC.

---

All signs of damage control. Most would forget one slight important thing though: it's an MMORPG and how is gaming the thing after a few weeks (even for the hardened fanboys).

Even from the most rabid fanboys I only get one word : "fun". Short term Fun isn't enough to keep this baby on the susccesful side of the subscription market - even WITH all the elements above. How about MMO RPG.

In the end people will have to PAY to play this MMO, like all the others. And freedom of speech is always better than try to manipulate.

Originally posted by Yunbei

Personally I always felt the freedom of speech was one of the most important parts of a free society, as long as not any person is attacked.

 

You are so wrong it's not even funny. You are suggesting that you have a God given right to say what you like in a discussion forum that is;

Owned and opperated by either a company, a group, a person or a fanclub. They can impose any rules they like. They do not have to read or tolerate your consructive whining, drivvel or nonesense. If they only want fan posts and praise, it is their perogative. If they insist [typo] that every post closes with the sentence, fluffy kittens make people happy, they can, and delete any post that does not follow that rule.

Originally posted by nikoliath

 

You are so wrong it's not even funny. You are suggesting that you have a God given right to say what you like in a discussion forum that is;

Owned and opperated by either a company, a group, a person or a fanclub. They can impose any rules they like. They do not have to read or tolerate your consructive whining, drivvel or nonesense. If they only want fan posts and praise, it is their perogative. If they insist [typo] that every post closes with the sentence, fluffy kittens make people happy, they can, and delete any post that does not follow that rule.

 

Yep, but rules imposed by an obscure "objective" group which in reality isn't independant at all and has its own "propaganda and agenda" settings for the full 2 years now is misleading.
 

That was the message the OP wanted to pass.

The agenda setting of warhammaralliance is defending the game AND its developpers at  a cost. I am not saying at all costs. But it comes in handy anyway.

The method of Mythic used with this kind of "fog" is far more rejectable than FunCom did with its own police guarded forums. At least there you KNEW they were handling the threads. At warhammeralliance it is Marc and Paul handling out the messages themselves (or their clones) and the simple user hasn't got a clue.

Originally posted by bodypass

Originally posted by nikoliath

 

You are so wrong it's not even funny. You are suggesting that you have a God given right to say what you like in a discussion forum that is;

Owned and opperated by either a company, a group, a person or a fanclub. They can impose any rules they like. They do not have to read or tolerate your consructive whining, drivvel or nonesense. If they only want fan posts and praise, it is their perogative. If they insist [typo] that every post closes with the sentence, fluffy kittens make people happy, they can, and delete any post that does not follow that rule.

 

Yep, but rules imposed by an obscure "objective" group which in reality isn't independant at all and has its own "propaganda and agenda" settings for the full 2 years now is misleading.
 

That was the message the OP wanted to pass.

The agenda setting of warhammaralliance is defending the game AND its developpers at  a cost. I am not saying at all costs. But it comes in handy anyway.

The method of Mythic used with this kind of "fog" is far more rejectable than FunCom did with its own police guarded forums. At least there you KNEW they were handling the threads. At warhammeralliance it is Marc and Paul handling out the messages themselves (or their clones) and the simple user hasn't got a clue.

 

Sorry to burst your hate filled bubble, but really so f***ing what? If they choose to work "closely" with Mythic and peddle their "propaganda" what business is it of anyone to try and cry foul?

It's dead simple, if you are not a fan and want to decry WAR, don't post on warhammeralliance, simple eh?

If it had been a government forum, sure you would have a legitimate greivance.

so uhm no one here was banned from the game or am i missing something?

Funny, when I read the box when I bought the game I dont recall there being a forum as part of my purchase price.  I just recall buying a game.  Perhaps I missed something do tell if I have.  Whining about a game not having forums is right up there with complaining that your mom didnt wash your clothes well enough.  Get a job I am sure you can find more productive ways to spend your time.  Perhaps with the money you earn you can purchase yourself a girlfriend for $25 an hour.

Originally posted by nikoliath

Originally posted by bodypass

Yep, but rules imposed by an obscure "objective" group which in reality isn't independant at all and has its own "propaganda and agenda" settings for the full 2 years now is misleading.
 

That was the message the OP wanted to pass.

The agenda setting of warhammaralliance is defending the game AND its developpers at  a cost. I am not saying at all costs. But it comes in handy anyway.

The method of Mythic used with this kind of "fog" is far more rejectable than FunCom did with its own police guarded forums. At least there you KNEW they were handling the threads. At warhammeralliance it is Marc and Paul handling out the messages themselves (or their clones) and the simple user hasn't got a clue.

 

Sorry to burst your hate filled bubble, but really so f***ing what? If they choose to work "closely" with Mythic and peddle their "propaganda" what business is it of anyone to try and cry foul?

It's dead simple, if you are not a fan and want to decry WAR, don't post on warhammeralliance, simple eh?

If it had been a government forum, sure you would have a legitimate greivance.

It's always good to know which organisation represents which business.
 

Doesn't have anything to do with legality, but everthing with loyal open customer support.

In this case its not open and loyal to one side. and the side is NOT the customer.

Originally posted by bodypass

It's all in the marketing game.

Announce the 500 K created accounts on the first day (handy covering the open Beta free distrubuted keys) and ...  Just as the game slips on amazon.com, announce the 750 K created accounts.

 

The burden of proof lies on the prosecution. You need to provide facts to support your case. When did the game slip on Amazon, and when did they announce 750k created accounts?  And what is the relationship between open beta freely distributed keys and whatever you're implying?

 

Only support "3rd party" "objective" forums (while being handled by the most rabid fanboys since 2006).

 

This opinion is hardly objective, calling 3rd party forum administrators "rabid fanboys."  Nice job injecting your opinion.

 

Cut the general chat system so players don't complain in game.

 

Please prove that the chat system was deliberately removed? 

 

Have a nice PR chat with the major internet reviewers and have EA sit behind you doens't hurt either. IGN giving a 9 is a knee fall to the desperate industry wanting to have a broadened game market for the PC.

 

What is a "knee fall"?  And you're saying the industry is desperate (for what exactly?) so they are giving WAR higher ratings?

---

All signs of damage control. Most would forget one slight important thing though: it's an MMORPG and how is gaming the thing after a few weeks (even for the hardened fanboys).

 

Damage control begins the day the game comes out according to you "Announce 500k created accounts" but what damage are they controlling on the first day?

 

Even from the most rabid fanboys I only get one word : "fun". Short term Fun isn't enough to keep this baby on the susccesful side of the subscription market - even WITH all the elements above. How about MMO RPG.

 

How you can determine that the game has no long-term fun when it hasn't been out for a month is a mystery to me.  And what is the "successful side of the subscription market"?  Any profitability at all? Or say, 10M worldwide subscribers?

 

In the end people will have to PAY to play this MMO, like all the others. And freedom of speech is always better than try to manipulate.

 

Is there a point here at all?

Is somone forcing alot of people to play WAR? if you don't like it, don't play it!

if you want to give feedback, just do it in-game...doh!?

Originally posted by bodypass

Originally posted by nikoliath

 

You are so wrong it's not even funny. You are suggesting that you have a God given right to say what you like in a discussion forum that is;

Owned and opperated by either a company, a group, a person or a fanclub. They can impose any rules they like. They do not have to read or tolerate your consructive whining, drivvel or nonesense. If they only want fan posts and praise, it is their perogative. If they insist [typo] that every post closes with the sentence, fluffy kittens make people happy, they can, and delete any post that does not follow that rule.

 

Yep, but rules imposed by an obscure "objective" group which in reality isn't independant at all and has its own "propaganda and agenda" settings for the full 2 years now is misleading.
 

That was the message the OP wanted to pass.

The agenda setting of warhammaralliance is defending the game AND its developpers at  a cost. I am not saying at all costs. But it comes in handy anyway.

The method of Mythic used with this kind of "fog" is far more rejectable than FunCom did with its own police guarded forums. At least there you KNEW they were handling the threads. At warhammeralliance it is Marc and Paul handling out the messages themselves (or their clones) and the simple user hasn't got a clue.

 

How do you know they're not independent and objective? What exactly is their agenda and what is it costing them?

Are you looking for a conspiracy or construcing one? and what is your agenda?

Originally posted by Yunbei

Personally I always felt the freedom of speech was one of the most important parts of a free society, as long as not any person is attacked.

I don't think you understand what freedom of speech is. It is a complicated subject so it makes sense that there are grey areas.

However, freedom of speech does not mean you get to say what you want whenever you want and wherever you want.

And that's a good thing. You can't just go up to anyone and start harassing them calling them ugly, standing under a person's apartment and yelling out your personal beliefs.

There are places for such activities and there are limits.

As you get older you might realize that that is a good thing. As the unbridaled enthusiasm of youth gets tempered by a bit of wisdom.
 

Getting back to your point, in many cases I've seen players make posts that do complain about a product but they seem to be coming from a place of frustration. They are not constructive and are generally hostile.

As a matter of fact, this complaint has been so prevalent on this board that in looking at the negative posts they hold up for scrutiny, it's plain as day that the post should have been locked.

So, in short, you can always ALWAYS make negative posts but they have to be constructive and can't be attacking any player or cm.

Feel free to post in its entirety some post that you feel was negative and shouldn't have been locked or removed and let us make up our own mind if you have a case.

Originally posted by Sovrath

Originally posted by Yunbei

Personally I always felt the freedom of speech was one of the most important parts of a free society, as long as not any person is attacked.

 

I don't think you understand what freedom of speech is. It is a complicated subject so it makes sense that there are grey areas.

However, freedom of speech does not mean you get to say what you want whenever you want and wherever you want.

And that's a good thing. You can't just go up to anyone and start harassing them calling them ugly, standing under a person's apartment and yelling out your personal beliefs.

There are places for such activities and there are limits.

As you get older you might realize that that is a good thing. As the unbridaled enthusiasm of youth gets tempered by a bit of wisdom.
 

Getting back to your point, in many cases I've seen players make posts that do complain about a product but they seem to be coming from a place of frustration. They are not constructive and are generally hostile.

As a matter of fact, this complaint has been so prevalent on this board that in looking at the negative posts they hold up for scrutiny, it's plain as day that the post should have been locked.

So, in short, you can always ALWAYS make negative posts but they have to be constructive and can't be attacking any player or cm.

Feel free to post in its entirety some post that you feel was negative and shouldn't have been locked or removed and let us make up our own mind if you have a case.

 Sheesh, I didnt want to go to Paul Barnett appartment! And its not about name calling, its about open discussion without censorship. Sure since you are so wise you know the difference between them by yourself, no?

You know starting THIS kind of questions is opening the Pandora's box. You'll never know where this ends, so I rather allow everything and accept I get some mud on my feet than give some elite few the power to decide what is "constructive critique" and what is "trolling". The line between these two is wide and its a vast grey area. I dont trust ANY human being to be so distance and objective as to decide that, so I prefer non censored forums. Anyone who says he know the absolute difference between viable critic and trolling 100% all the time lies. Period.

As to my rights? Sure, I didnt sign a contract with Mythic to have official forums, but when it is common it stands out negatively. On a forum ran by Mythic I was eye to eye, customer to company, and I didnt have a middleman with his own agenda mixing into it. I want to talk to other paying customers and the game devs without censorship from private persons who are just other customers like me. They have no moral authority to moderate a forum.

And esp. the ongoings on warhammeralliance are dubious at best. I wonder in whose backside this "Browncoat" is stuck to get that name... Just had enough stories of guild mates and some threads I were reading suddenly seen locked for "not constructive" or other dubious reasons. If "non constructive" is a valid reason to lock a thread, hell, 90% of the damn internet would be locked down!

In the end an official forum is a way to respect the customer.

Originally posted by Yunbei

Now I always have had a great skeptic against companies who decide not to make official forums. Sure, there are a few recomended forums, but essentially they are in the hand of independed people.  Customers posting on these independent forums just dont have any equal standing to the forum owners/mods. Now if mods in an official forum start to ban people and lockup threads mindlessly, customers would quit the game at some point, so there is always a certain balance of interests between posting customers and mods.

Now I have noticed all of those recommended forums where Mythic devs appear are basically for fanbois and every critic comment is locked. Usually I post ony here, but I heard enough from guild mates who tried to discuss or comment on negative things, and word has it most of those unofficial forums where Mythic mods go to are highly censored. Any critique gets locked and bans are used fast and often.

Personally I always felt the freedom of speech was one of the most important parts of a free society, as long as not any person is attacked.

For me its one big negative for WAR, if there is no place for paying customers to say their opinon, sure to be heard/read by Devs - at least now and then - I feel not really respected as customer. It just gives me a very ill feeling to have to rely on forums in the hand of other private persons who can treat me like ever they wish. And usually those forums are run by rabid fanbois of the worst sort.

Really what is the difference between a private fansite forum which controls threads and an official forum which does the same?

There are no freedom of speech rights in a private forum.  Freedom of speech applies to public locations.  Still, I do not get the impression that warhammer alliance locks negative but appropriate threads.. im sure I have seen negative threads on there.

Seriously, you're not a conspiracy nut too are you?  I mean, what with the signature image and all...

Originally posted by Yunbei

Originally posted by Sovrath

Originally posted by Yunbei

Personally I always felt the freedom of speech was one of the most important parts of a free society, as long as not any person is attacked.

 

I don't think you understand what freedom of speech is. It is a complicated subject so it makes sense that there are grey areas.

However, freedom of speech does not mean you get to say what you want whenever you want and wherever you want.

And that's a good thing. You can't just go up to anyone and start harassing them calling them ugly, standing under a person's apartment and yelling out your personal beliefs.

There are places for such activities and there are limits.

As you get older you might realize that that is a good thing. As the unbridaled enthusiasm of youth gets tempered by a bit of wisdom.
 

Getting back to your point, in many cases I've seen players make posts that do complain about a product but they seem to be coming from a place of frustration. They are not constructive and are generally hostile.

As a matter of fact, this complaint has been so prevalent on this board that in looking at the negative posts they hold up for scrutiny, it's plain as day that the post should have been locked.

So, in short, you can always ALWAYS make negative posts but they have to be constructive and can't be attacking any player or cm.

Feel free to post in its entirety some post that you feel was negative and shouldn't have been locked or removed and let us make up our own mind if you have a case.

 Sheesh, I didnt want to go to Paul Barnett appartment! And its not about name calling, its about open discussion without censorship. Sure since you are so wise you know the difference between them by yourself, no?

You know starting THIS kind of questions is opening the Pandora's box. You'll never know where this ends, so I rather allow everything and accept I get some mud on my feet than give some elite few the power to decide what is "constructive critique" and what is "trolling". The line between these two is wide and its a vast grey area. I dont trust ANY human being to be so distance and objective as to decide that, so I prefer non censored forums. Anyone who says he know the absolute difference between viable critic and trolling 100% all the time lies. Period.

As to my rights? Sure, I didnt sign a contract with Mythic to have official forums, but when it is common it stands out negatively. On a forum ran by Mythic I was eye to eye, customer to company, and I didnt have a middleman with his own agenda mixing into it. I want to talk to other paying customers and the game devs without censorship from private persons who are just other customers like me. They have no moral authority to moderate a forum.

And esp. the ongoings on warhammeralliance are dubious at best. I wonder in whose backside this "Browncoat" is stuck to get that name... Just had enough stories of guild mates and some threads I were reading suddenly seen locked for "not constructive" or other dubious reasons. If "non constructive" is a valid reason to lock a thread, hell, 90% of the damn internet would be locked down!

In the end an official forum is a way to respect the customer.

I'm not saying you want to go to Paul Barnett's apartment to yell your opinion (though I wouldn't be surprised if there were people who did!).

What I'm saying is that freedom of speech is not being able to go wherever you want and say whatever you want.

So, you are saying official forums are the way to go. Great. But what you don't take into account is that then those forums become the forums of the business. It is private property. And as such is even subject to more moderation as they represent that business and its product.

When NC wasn't having issues, their official forums were very heavily moderated. People would come and complain about freedom of speech but they would say "hey, these are our forums, you are able to talk about x, y and only in a certain way z.

Official forums do have to be more professional but you are not going to find the freedom you think you will get.

And as I've said, it depends on how the post is made on warhammer alliance. If someone could show me a complete, non-edited post that was made on warhammer alliance that was removed for being negative I would love to see it.

Not because I don't belive they don't remove posts. But I want to see what is considered a constructive yet negative post.

I'm betting dollars to donuts that it is probably a bit more volatile than what would be considered constructive.

Originally posted by Yunbei

 I want to talk to other paying customers and the game devs without censorship from private persons who are just other customers like me. They have no moral authority to moderate a forum.

And esp. the ongoings on warhammeralliance are dubious at best. I wonder in whose backside this "Browncoat" is stuck to get that name... Just had enough stories of guild mates and some threads I were reading suddenly seen locked for "not constructive" or other dubious reasons. If "non constructive" is a valid reason to lock a thread, hell, 90% of the damn internet would be locked down!

In the end an official forum is a way to respect the customer.

And still you ignore the fact that a forum opperator can run their own rules and delete or promote anything they see fit, within the law. They require NO VALID REASON.

If you do not like it, post elsewhere... fixed.

Originally posted by nikoliath

Originally posted by Yunbei

 I want to talk to other paying customers and the game devs without censorship from private persons who are just other customers like me. They have no moral authority to moderate a forum.

And esp. the ongoings on warhammeralliance are dubious at best. I wonder in whose backside this "Browncoat" is stuck to get that name... Just had enough stories of guild mates and some threads I were reading suddenly seen locked for "not constructive" or other dubious reasons. If "non constructive" is a valid reason to lock a thread, hell, 90% of the damn internet would be locked down!

In the end an official forum is a way to respect the customer.

And still you ignore the fact that a forum opperator can run their own rules and delete or promote anything they see fit, within the law. They require NO VALID REASON.

If you do not like it, post elsewhere... fixed.

This.  QFT.

Which is why most of my posting is done here, because I find the moderation pretty balanced overall, compared to a fan or company run site.

Speaking of which AOC had official forums and they pretty much put to bed the belief the OP has about  offical forums being more fair and balanced.  They were far worse than most fan run sites I've ever run into.

I think this whole post sounds like one big "aliens abducted my brother" debate. There is no mass underground marketing conspiracy done by mythic to Quell the naysayers. There's no supersecret orginization that polices all bad posts and has them dragged from there house bloodied and beaten.

Freedom of speech has nothing to do with this. It's a privately run forum and they have the right to close ANY topic they want to. It's like walking into someones home telling them there food is the worste you've ever eaten and when they ask you to leave YOU say they can't.

I would also like to see this "friend of a friend who's a guildmate"'s post whose so say it wasn't completely rude derogative or just obscene. I'l tell you what If I was running a forum "dedicated" to a specific game i would not only lock posts who said "THIS GAME IS AWFULL WHOEVER PLAYS IT IS A MORON" just as much as I would lock "OMG this game is the BEST whoever DOESN"T like it is a moron"

It goes both ways the thing these have in COMMON are the fact that NIETHER is constuctive and it's not a valid argument. It's not presenting points and counterpoints to cohesivly and articulately state why you are having problems and why you do not like them. It's a bash session and essentially just a rant and a rave and a nuessance. THOSE are (from my experience and seeing of things on the forums i go to) the posts that have been getting locked. It's the ones that turn into BASHING and arguing sessions where people are just saying "BAH YOU SUCK"... "no YOU SUCK" to each other. And I think anyone who's ever modded a forum will agree with me when I say those should be locked so that it ends and people don't start getting REALLY heated.

Wow Yes ... awsome that poor Horse..its soul should be allowed to rest in peace instead X 100th thread to the power of Dumb has been posted on this subject..its been beaten to death and back. 

They did it with DAOC they're doing it with WAR it won't change any time soon.