Originally posted by AmazingAvery

All I have to say is sorry I hurt your feeling and you felt the need to patronize.

Oh, no, I don't think your feeble attempt could hurt my feeling at all.

1. I did have some experience with the models at an early age. The point I am making is every class looks the basic same  to that class, when much more could be done. Dying clothes in war is limited to certain area's on the specific piece itself, and not the whole. It lacks in the area of real life decoration in freedom of choosing where especially at the start of the game. In AoC for example or even lotro you get a set amount of choices but they are more extensive.  I got up to level 15 on one guy and found 1 green and 1 grey dye int he world. On the tabletop game you don't lay your guys out naked do you.. When I create a character fresh in war I feel let down considering the relation to the IP. Its all about personalization and it's lacking at the start. The level of detail lacks. Thats how I feel from experience.

The point you make prove that you know little about Warhammer IP and miniature painting. Of course every one of the same class will look the same to a certain extend because the unique look of every class is part of the Warhammer IP.

However, there are many options to select to make the character look quite different. For example, Ironbreaker from level 1 to level 20 there are at least 5 different shoulder models, at least 3 different body models, at least 3 different boots models... These are all from quests and regular drops and not include unique armor sets obtain from bosses and RvR. There are also 3 trophy slots which you can use to put trophy to make the character looks quite unique. These unique trophy come from tome unlock and drop and you have to explore and find them.

You say AoC have more extensive choices, I disagree. The amount of armor model in AoC is pittifully small. You say every one in the same class in WAR look the same, I say everyone wearing the same type of armor in AoC look the same not just the same class, all leather wearing character basically look the same, all heavy armor characters look the same. One standard armor model and texture apply across the board. From level 1 to level 40 in AoC you have like 2 - 3 set of unique looking armor for a certain type of armor but they have fix stat. You out level them very fast, then you go right back to the same standard looking armor.

You got up to level 15 and only found 2 dyes in the world? That's because you solly get them from quest. The other dyes come from crafting and drops. It's an MMORPG, you don't give people every color possible right from the start. Whoever found the new color dye should be reward with a color of their own. Having different color for your armor is like a prestige.

Every game have different way to allow you customize your character. Some you can do at start, some you can eventually do in game vie equipment, dye and other things. Lacking customization at start does not meant lacking customization.

2. It doesn't matter later on what they do, the game is how it is right now in terms of sieges. In AoC I have plots, I can move buildings around, In war it is static. I never build it, it destroys, it appears out of the ashes brand new again the next day. Considering the IP in Warhammer is all about being hands on in design - this area fails for me. Do you not buy your GW mag and it has write ups on constructing all sorts of things for the tabe top game? Where is this in line with the lore in War - its good but it could of been a lot more. It's about knowing what to do each and everytime for a keep, there is no flexibility in war. Table top maps are hand crafted, in warhammer....  You do what you have to do in the game, eventually it resets, I don't know whats so hard to understand here, and the cycle begins again.

AoC siege and WAR siege right now are different kind of siege. AoC is guild siege, you build your keep and other guild trying to destroy it. WAR siege is you try to occupy strategic point/location protected by a keep. You don't destroy the keep, you try to take over it to use it again to control the territory. You don't move it around because it's already located where it suppose to be. Now, if in the future, if Mythic allow player guild to build their keep, then those will be located, moved wherever player wanted, and build however player wanted. Table top maps are hand crafted, of course, current technology have certain limit to be able to allow player to hand crafted things in the game. Like in AoC, do they allow people to hand crafted their building? No, it was prebuilt, you only put down the pre-defined model to the map, you don't customize anything. You can't even build walls where you wanted to and have to follow where they allow you to. You can't put your building down wherever you wanted to, you have to put at specific places they pre-defined for you. It's not much different from having the city pre-build you know.

3. WAR still lacks area's to RP in. Lacks emotes, lacks chat etc etc. When you want to embrace the lore its quite hard to do on the battlefield.

WAR certainly does not lack emotes. I know about 60 of them. The lack of chat is because you don't join the global channel by default. You have to manually join the global channel and not many people know this. If you are in the RP server, you will see WAR does not lack of RP. Far from it.

4. In AoC I open quest tab and read all the previous quests I have done summary :) Doing those a lot of those quests is about the lore, or taken directly from. If I want to know more because in AoC it was displayed to me in a more captivating way then I would go pick a book up from the creator of swords and sorcery..

The tome of knowledge still present the lore, the quest story in a much better format than the quest tab in AoC. You don't just read whatever quest text in the quest, everything is linked together in a organized format, everything you need to know, everything you wanted to know, the quest storyline, the background storyline, the history of the area, the lore related to everything is combine together. If you compare the quest tab from AoC to what the Tome of knowledge can do, and you think they are equal, I can only pity you for your blindness.

I am here with a difference of an opinion in some area's not to argue or belittle. Thanks.

Ultimately the article is a "my game is better because..." but never fleshes out things for the other games to the level of detail to the particular game in question. 

No, you are not here with a different opinions. You are here because the writer of the article said Warhammer IP is better suited for an MMORPG than Conan IP and then you proceed using a tons of misinformation comming from a very limited view of the game from your experiences and try to prove the author was wrong. When you said WAR have limitation in shade of colors, limitation in colors, that's just flat out wrong, not a different of opinion. When you said the world of WAR does not dynamically evolve around Warhammer IP and stop and some point and repeat the whole thing again, that is just wrong, not a different of opinion.

The article is not ultimately a "my game is better because...", the article ultimately is "Warhammer is a better IP for MMORPG because..."

Originally posted by neonwire

Originally posted by JK-Kanosi

I'd like to preface this by saying I am a fan and paying subscriber of WAR. With that aside, I am worried about the future I might have in WAR for one reason: War is everywhere.

One might ask, "Gee...what is so bad about war being everywhere?" Well, if you are a part-time gamer who logs in an hour or two to advance your character, probably nothing. However, if you spend many hours a day or week in the world, or you have done all there is to do at max level or are bored with the RvR, there is no place to just "relax".

In real life, no one wants to live in a war torn nation. We like the tranquil plains, hills, and mountains. We love nature or perhaps the action of a bustling city. The point I'm making is that without an end to conflict, the game remains in a perpetual state of war, which means the players character can never relax.

The only solution to this is to actually have an end to the war or to release non-war torn areas in expansions that players can adventure, explore and make seperate lives in. I guess the difference between me and other gamers is why we PvP. I PvP to help my side achieve victory. If victory is nowhere in sight, fighting becomes dull and depressing. People not like me PvP, because they love the action. They don't care about the social aspects of a game really as I do.

Only time will tell how the game being in a constant war setting will effect the longevity of a player's subscription. The one thing I loved about DAoC is that the game was a world to live in. You could seperate the conflict of the war between the three realms and your characters' individual life. I could explore the Highlands one day, which are peaceful, but not without their own adventures and threats; the next, I could go into the frontiers to support my realm in the ongoing struggle. Every zone in WAR that I've encountered was full of war against your opposing faction. If not in PvE, it was warring in PvP. No where was it really safe to just adventure and let loose.

 

I have never really understood why a person would want to log on to an online computer game that is primarily all about killing things and then try and do something relaxing. If you want to feel relaxed then dont play a game that is about fighting a war. There are plenty of PvE games around that allow you to stand around in virtual taverns twiddling your virtual thumbs and imagining that you are soaking up the virtual atmosphere. They do that in EQ2 where they all gather in taverns and pretend to be doing stuff rather than playing the game.

I would rather be playing the game though and I am finding Warhammer rather good fun. I like the fact that finally I can log on to a game and actually encounter other players that want to cut my head off. Why the hell would I want to stand in a virtual tavern doing buggerall?

You mentioned real life. Why would I want to play a game that is like real life? Great so I can sit down in my room with a drink and some food and log onto an online game where I can sit down in a room with a drink and some food. Yeah that sounds like great fun! But yes your right in real life no-one wants to live in a war torn nation..........but Warhammer isnt real life.......its a game. Killing people in real life sucks but killing people in a computer game is great fun.

You want it to be possible to "win the war"? You want the war to end sometime? Well you can. You play through to the end content and then you stop playing it and go and do something else. Sorry but no-one can EVER complete the story in an mmo. You never beat the big bad guy at the end. You never save the damsel in distress. You never save the city from the forces of evil. You can never really achieve any major goal in an mmo because its static and it always will be. Thats the nature of an mmo. To complete it would mean the end of the game.......all the players would just go back home and live an ordinary life. How exactly would that happen in a game?

"Sorry guys the wars over now. Nothing to kill any more. We're shutting down the servers now cos its all over. We're working on extra content though in which you can all play peaceful characters and do things like baking bread, working the fields, running a shop......all the ordinary things you do in life basicly"

In WAR though you can enjoy the process of the big battle even though we all know it will never end because an mmo is simply a freeze-frame of a place in time. No matter what the game actually is there is always one background story that occurs that never gets mentioned and thats this: There is a little Wizard who sits in another dimension and he has cast a spell over the game world which causes time to freeze which is why no-one ever dies, all the npcs always give everyone the same quests and basicly the whole game world stays static. So no the war will never end in Warhammer because that pesky dimensional Wizard froze time. What a git.

You said a very odd thing at the end. "Nowhere was it really safe to just adventure and let loose". What the hell does that mean? Safe? Adventure? How do those two words fit together......and how do you "let loose"? You want to just wander around an empty landscape and jump about lots? Is that what you mean? Maybe every once in a while you encounter another player and you bow to each other, say "how do you do?", have a little dance, cook a bit of food or something, tell a few jokes and then resume the pressing of the W key as you "explore" the 3d modeled landscape safe in the knowledge that no-one will break the monotonous routine and the warm fuzzy feeling that nothing out of the ordinary is ever going to happen.

Yeah thats why I log on to online games with thousands of people.......NOT!

You loved DAoC because it had a world you could live in? Ermmm no it didnt. It had a 3d landscape populated with the graphics of monsters that waited for your avatar to walk up to them and kill them and then go up levels so you could walk to other areas and kill other graphics of monsters that allowed your avatar to do more of the same....just like every mmo has. The only "individual life" that your avatar had was in your imagination and that can be applied to any game.

This is Warhammer not Peacehammer. War is everywhere and thank god it is cos otherwise I would be bored. If you want a peaceful safe environement where nothing stressful or surprising ever happens then I would recommend a game like Vanguard or EQ2.

Confrontational much? You don't know anything about me, so please, drop your assumptions and take the flaming elsewhere. I take it you're an adult? Well start acting like one.

About "stunning" graphics of Lotro ... ok, environment as such in ok, but Lotro also "feature" unnatural running of characters, topped with ugly, crippled, grotesque, ... movement of bear pet. The worst I have ever seen in any game. But I like(d) the lore. Controls did never felt right. Etc.

On the other side, AoC had great potential ... many bugs, after months program was still like closed-beta, ... but the worst thing was complete ignorance from Funcom. In everything they said, in every report, ... they just ignored all complains from players, which were considered dumbbers, so I felt. They just stick their head in sand. Gathereing, crafting, ... to be rewritten from scratch. But graphics are really great not to speak about fatalities. I guess some day I will return to see if they finished beta.

So far I like War every day more and more ... they have already fixed two most disturbing things (there was no autoloot checkbox, delay between mails was 20 secs) ... the only pain in the ass remain incredibly bad gathering and crafting. Ok, alchemy can be leveled pretty easy. Talismans are close to impossible, not to mention it looks have to destroy PURPLE equipment to get fragment for permanent talismans, all others are only TEMPORARY. From few hours to days. !?! Not to mention that in game about WAR some weapon and armor crafting would fit perfectly and not some talisman making. And for sure there should be minning and herb gathering.

Ok, there were Goa problem with open beta lounch ... but they were more then fair extending free period twice. To me did never felt like cheap way to buy customers, ... it looked completely honest. And producers are very fair to players in any way, support is very very fast, .... 

To me for sure most complete universe is still by large WoW ... but for sure also I will play War for long time.

Very interesting.

I was thinking about the exact same topic awhile ago. 

This thread is full of stupid, especially Thachsanh. The worst part by far is the article. Fanboi stench all over it, like being biased is the new black. This site use to mean something, with Frank destroying all the stupid casual "debates." Now, it's full of retards that don't know any better. So sad.

Originally posted by LiquidWolf

Originally posted by jakin

There is far too much "Fanboy" in this particular article for me to give it any credence whatsoever.

 

MMORPG.com Warhammer Online Correspondent Asaf Yonsian writes this interesting piece about Mythic's use of the Warhammer IP in an MMO compared to both Turbine and Funcom's handling of their IPs.

 

It's the Warhammer Correspondent. Of COURSE it is going to biased.

You don't send a Sony fanatic to review an Xbox event...

The correspondents are going to advocate their game.

You should realise this.

Agreed. It's an opinion piece to stimulate debate. Judging by some of the comments it is succeeding.

Bottom line is- are you having fun while playing? I never thought I'd say this about an mmo without crafting, I loved the uniqueness of the SWG system and have been praying for a game to come close that works, but I think I'm having more fun in WAR than any other MMO I've ever played. I'm not that young so that's quite a lot!

Originally posted by Guillermo197

No game is perfect! Just like WAR isn't perfect either!
 

No it's not but it is an awful lot of fun :)

RvR can't beat it, PQ's great idea and gives me a vehicle to meet other realm mates I normally wouldn't interact with.

Fun yep perfect nope but since I'm asfter fun not perfection I simply don't care.

As for wow clone /facepalm go check your MMO history and after that go check your GW history or Bliz history....

Originally posted by herennow

Originally posted by LiquidWolf

Originally posted by jakin

There is far too much "Fanboy" in this particular article for me to give it any credence whatsoever.

 

MMORPG.com Warhammer Online Correspondent Asaf Yonsian writes this interesting piece about Mythic's use of the Warhammer IP in an MMO compared to both Turbine and Funcom's handling of their IPs.

 

It's the Warhammer Correspondent. Of COURSE it is going to biased.

You don't send a Sony fanatic to review an Xbox event...

The correspondents are going to advocate their game.

You should realise this.

 

Agreed. It's an opinion piece to stimulate debate. Judging by some of the comments it is succeeding.

Bottom line is- are you having fun while playing? I never thought I'd say this about an mmo without crafting, I loved the uniqueness of the SWG system and have been praying for a game to come close that works, but I think I'm having more fun in WAR than any other MMO I've ever played. I'm not that young so that's quite a lot!

Yeah it surprised me too! I really wasnt expecting to enjoy this game that much as I am hoping for something more detailed and deep but I'm actually having a lot of fun with it despite its simplicity.......and I'm not a young un either.

Originally posted by nogardnaz

This thread is full of stupid, especially Thachsanh. The worst part by far is the article. Fanboi stench all over it, like being biased is the new black. This site use to mean something, with Frank destroying all the stupid casual "debates." Now, it's full of retards that don't know any better. So sad.

The only retard here is you!

It said in clear writing that this article was written by a WAR corespondent. So then you know it will be a biased article.

Cheers

Originally posted by AmazingAvery

All I have to say is sorry I hurt your feeling and you felt the need to patronize.

1. I did have some experience with the models at an early age. The point I am making is every class looks the basic same  to that class, when much more could be done. Dying clothes in war is limited to certain area's on the specific piece itself, and not the whole. It lacks in the area of real life decoration in freedom of choosing where especially at the start of the game. In AoC for example or even lotro you get a set amount of choices but they are more extensive.  I got up to level 15 on one guy and found 1 green and 1 grey dye int he world. On the tabletop game you don't lay your guys out naked do you.. When I create a character fresh in war I feel let down considering the relation to the IP. Its all about personalization and it's lacking at the start. The level of detail lacks. Thats how I feel from experience.

2Ultimately the article is a "my game is better because..." but never fleshes out things for the other games to the level of detail to the particular game in question. 

Dear Avery,

I am pretty sure you didn't even figured out that in WAR when you go to a Dye merchant you can also use that button on the right of your mouse, also called right button, to right click on a color.

So from the basic 9 colors available in the lower Tiers you can dye primary areas AND secundary areas of your gear. Basically giving you countless dye possibilities!

Next to that you DO get a lot of custom dye drops in the first two Tiers (as you obviously even haven't gotten to the end of the second Tier to access to some really nice armor sets (wich already start in early Tier2) and thus didn't see them).

In the first two Tiers I have gotten around 5-6 custom dye rewards through quests alone (and I didn't even leave my pairing even) as well.

Now lets talk about Age of Conan where everyone DOES look the same. Even several classes haven't even gotten their own armor all the way up until level80! All clothies look the same. All leather classes look the same. All heavy armor classes look the same.

The only thing Funcom added were finally some PVP armor sets people can get through farming players to get PVP level. Took them over 4 months till it was patched in!

Where are those promised 1500 armor sets in Age of Conan? 5 months after launch still no word on them! As only a tiny fraction of it is in the game!

People didn't only MASS quit Age of Conan because of all the bugs and lack of content. They also MASS quit, because everyone looked boring and EXACTLY the same 40-50 levels later as they were at level10 !

Not to mention that in a lot of cases level 10 armor was better then most of the level 40+ crap you got.

And then you come here in this topic to tell us that Age of Conan has more customisation and Armor looks?  HAHAHAHAHA.

Your fanboi preaches have now taken a very desperate form my friend.

Cheers

Pretty accurate write up. Kudos.

Originally posted by Guillermo197

----------- 

Originally posted by openedge1

Yet, I do not agree.

WAR was boring and still repetitive.

Right now the genre as a whole has no new ideas. So, the fact that such a clone of WoW could be considered so "innovative" due to changing some mechanics really shows how far we have sunk for entertainment.

The reason Mythic got it right is they took no bold steps, no major moves to try and be different. But, as a whole they do capture the IP's visual style, though slightly muddy and gritty, and not very hi-res.

But mechanically, it is still the same grind gameplay underneath a new "slightly different" shell

Just an alternate view of a game that does not suck, yet does nothing to excite either.

-------------

There are no WoW clones. There are only Ultima Online and EverQuest 1 clones.

It becomes tiresome that everyone nowadays bashes down games of being WoW clones.

That's simply not true! WoW was nothing new either. Blizzard just took the right bits from previous MMO's and used that as foundation for their MMO. Nothing more, nothing less.

And WoW isn't perfect either! There are plenty of flaws in WoW as well. Especially today.

No game is perfect! Just like WAR isn't perfect either!

Cheers
 

So? WAR is still 24 times more alike WoW than EQ1 anyway

Originally posted by jakin

There is far too much "Fanboy" in this particular article for me to give it any credence whatsoever.

Anyone who tries to talk about IP and suggests in the first few paragraphs that sticking to the IP is a bad idea is well off base.

I played LotRO - I quit because there was very little to do once you'd completed the leveling process (it's the only game where I've heard fans say the best way to play it is to not play as much).  I however did greatly respect the choice to make the world "feel" authentic.  The mistake Turbine is making is compromising their product with the introduction of a generic lightning-bolting wizard class into the game - all to try and entice the "oooh shiny particles" crowd.

I play WAR now - I keep playing because the game is feature complete from start to finish.  There is an end-game that I am working towards, whereas with LotRO there was nothing past the top level.  WAR left some things out - sure, but what's there appears to work correctly and has many things to do at all levels.  What's there suits the IP - particles and all.

Oh - and epic?  Because you can change the world?  What MMO is this?  I'm pretty sure Arthas (or whoever) is still standing in the same place as when you were last there.  MMOs by definition cannot have epic stories in the vein of high fantasy books or movies.  Everyone has to go through the same gates.

In many respects, LotRO's use of instanced storytelling gets a lot closer to granting an epic feel than any other game before it.  The sporadic chapter instances (though poorly laid out in terms of progression) did certainly succeed in bringing the experience into a more personal realm than most other games I've played - WAR included.

I have to agree. Whether someone likes what Turbine did or not is one thing. But they tried to set the game in the world of middle earth. It just so happens that that world is not as flashy as people want it (looks at the writer of the article, what are you thinking? Are we not more than just players wanting flash withou substance?).

And quite frankly, besides Turbine's mistake of adding a more flashier magic using character (my opinion) I think there is room for more "war" in middle earth as the game progresses.

As far as conan, we know what those issues are.

I like Warhammer and play it. I didn't expect to even try it but it's fun. But a game based in an IP is going to have its drawbacks as well as strengths. Watering it down too much will only make more people like it and brign it farther away from why anyone was intrigued in the first place. Any game that is watered down and whose thrust of story is compromised will eventually just be a shadow of itself.

Well I just have to disagree with the author.  Now, I am not criticizing War, it is a good game, but come on, Lotro just nailed the lore.  Warhammer, they made it fit their rvr scheme.  Problem with War, you can only retake that castle so many times and it just become boring.  Some people like that, I certainly had enough of it in DAoC to last me a lifetime.

As to magic, did you notice all the crowd control in War?  The Mythic people just love crowd control.  They just cannot grasp how disliked that ability is. 

As to magic, there is nothing wrong with a fantasy game having limited magic. 

I think the OP failed to prove his point.  When it comes to lore, Lotro owns War.

This is an awesome article. Very accurate and well thought out! Great read :) :)

Hey guys, Asaf here (AKA OP).

First of all, thanks for reading this and commenting, regardless of the positive or negative reaction in the comment.

A couple of points I wanted to clarify in regards to the article and some replies:

• LOTRO was amazing in it's respect to the lore. I said it in the article and I totally mean it. However, I think there HAS to be a balance between a good feeling of playing in the LOTRO world and feeling you're playing an MMO.
   
• AoC and content issues - Thachsanh, you hit the mark right there. I tried to level up a character in Conan. There were two main issues: First, I had to grind - a lot. I think the minimum would be to have quests that propelled you from 1 to 80. Second, all I did were quests, all the time. There weren't enough instance groups as there weren't enough people or maybe the instances weren't "attractive" enough. Combine it all and you get a feel like you're on an endless race to reach 80, while doing nothing but grinding on the way.
   
• WAR Fanboy? - Nope, not me. I play a game as long as I enjoy it. I enjoyed both LOTRO and AoC for the first few weeks, then got bored/tired of them. I play WAR and feel the same way I did when I first played WoW, that means a lot. I am currently writing another article about the balance or lack of between races in WAR - If you think I'm a fanboy, please read it and let me know if you still hold that opinion.
   
• Alienoverlord - I agree with you completely - The world built by GW was meant to support a game and it shows when you play WAR, that's a very valid point.

I played each of these games and I tend to disagree with the author.

First I think both LotRo and WAR fits their lore better than AoC.

Then In WAR you have the feeling of moving around Warhammer figurines and war but not so much as there is a story going on. In that LotRo does an awesome job to make you feel you are part of the story and not a peon as in WAR or some pseudo Conanesque "hero".

Where LotRo failed is where AoC was good and WAR excellent : marketing.  Lets say AoC, LotRo and WAR had the same marketing campaing I'd bet 1000 to 1 LotRo would be the #1 game now. And I mark my words even over WOW.

I'm having fun in WAR now and I think it's a very well polished game but I know this game will be boring in the long term.

About WAR the public quests sounds interesting but they still need a lot of tweaking like all players should be automatically grouped when participating in a PQ.

Same for the tome of Knowledge, fun but pretty boring when you have the same entry for the 10th time on your alts. Also it needs tweaking like right click to get back to last page instead of having to click back. Most annoying when browsing many entries. We should be able to disable some alerts or entries. I'm looking forward TOK unlock ding! : you earn the ability to mark all know entries read in one click!!!

Now for the mini scenarios, it's mostly a big mess as players don't group beforehand there should be way to enhance this. Also you can queue to different scenario zones but if you want to get the scenario bonus you have to be in the right zone near the right guy or you loose about 50% that you get form quest completion. Like 2 minutes before the launch of the scenario the players should be automatically added to a scenario chat so they could advise. Afterwards they would be optionally teleported to a neutral gound tavern where they would be able to chat with their last "ennemies" passing the door of the tavern would send them directly to the point they where before jumping into the scenario.

As a final note I disagree with the fact a player has to feel epic. It is mostly right for the younger people (no offense) but not for the majority of MMO players. For example check pre-cu and CU SWG, I knew many entertainers, cooks, meds that never even fired a weapon and where having much fun. Now I do agree players have to feel their character is unique, read different. That's where character customisation and skill trees comes into the line.

Originally posted by Arinas

A couple of points I wanted to clarify in regards to the article and some replies:

• LOTRO was amazing in it's respect to the lore. I said it in the article and I totally mean it. However, I think there HAS to be a balance between a good feeling of playing in the LOTRO world and feeling you're playing an MMO.
   
• Alienoverlord - I agree with you completely - The world built by GW was meant to support a game and it shows when you play WAR, that's a very valid point.

 

As far as your first point, I disagree.

There is a difference between adapting a particular IP to another medium so that it works. Yes, these are games and they do have to primarily entertain. Also, since there mmo conventions such as a means for players to trade, to acquire skills, to travel to places in a reasonable amount of time then you obviously have to have methods of doing this.

None of this has anything to do with adding things that just aren't in the world.

To that point, you also shouldn't take things away from that world that makes it what it is. An example is all the skin in Conan and those who comlained that it was sexist. Well of course it's sexist, it's Conan! So not touching that which is a part of the world is important.

But changing that world just becuase players think it's neat will sanitize the IP.

As far as the second point, that is very correct, the game world for warhammer supports the table top game and it's imortant to remember that.

Yeah I like ingored all the talk about it being a bad game or Aoc being the bad game, etc... blah blah blah...

Sure the Mythic used the ip well...  You less know your a dwarf or orcs & goblins...

Dwarfs got a lame tank, an okay range unit, and a class that just breaks the ip by casting spells.  Instead of getting Hammers, thunders, rangers, slayers, or heck warriors.

Orcs & Goblins are just as bad, they got black orcs, shaman, and a hunter(with a pet that doesn't really work).  No Savage Orc Boyz, no night goblins, no choppas, no arrers, and heck the shaman anit even orc or night goblin.

Originally posted by Thachsanh

Originally posted by AmazingAvery

I am gonna have to blow hole in your little write up here my AoC fanboy friend.

Considering Warhammer has 25 yrs of personalized, customized figures the game was a huge let down in this area. Everyone looks the same. limitations in colours, physical apperance and character creation. Nothing like the table top. What would of been neat is using different shades of colour for example. That is a failure to not use the full potential of the IP. I remember painting a figure when I was 10. I could choose how they looked. In warhammer its pretty limiting in this area. I have all the fighting fantasy books by Steve Jackson and Ian livingstone - when Games Workshop got up and running proper, there were some great idea's floating around, when i think back to the descriptive narratives to the lore and compare them with my bulk, 5 frame character online in 2008 can't help but be dissapointed..

I really doubt that you involved much with miniature painting. There are certain freedom to the painter while building their army but there are still guild line you have to follow to fit with the lore and the IP. The whole idea of Warhammer miniature painting beside building an army so you can play with is to make the miniature look alive. It has nothing to do with what color theme you pick. You see, it has little to do with physical appearance too because there are only limited amount of model you can have. If you go gung ho in converting, of course you may have something looks relatively different but still there are guild lines you cannot break.

Hmm.. I have been painting and playing warhammer for 15 years, on and off, and have to call a bs on your painting guidlines. You do not have to follow any basic guidlines when painting models, it solely up to you as a player to paint your army any way you like. It is one of warhammer major points is to make your own fluff and painting ideas. 

".......guide lines you cannot break"   

As for the OP; I disagree with you. Mythic totally failed on creating Warhammer IP into a MMO world. There is less than nothing enviroment, or lore to explore, even AoC felt more like a world to me. Restricted, comes to mind. If I want a PvP game with a shallow world, I rmight as well just play Rakion.

Originally posted by neonwire

Originally posted by JK-Kanosi

I'd like to preface this by saying I am a fan and paying subscriber of WAR. With that aside, I am worried about the future I might have in WAR for one reason: War is everywhere.

One might ask, "Gee...what is so bad about war being everywhere?" Well, if you are a part-time gamer who logs in an hour or two to advance your character, probably nothing. However, if you spend many hours a day or week in the world, or you have done all there is to do at max level or are bored with the RvR, there is no place to just "relax".

In real life, no one wants to live in a war torn nation. We like the tranquil plains, hills, and mountains. We love nature or perhaps the action of a bustling city. The point I'm making is that without an end to conflict, the game remains in a perpetual state of war, which means the players character can never relax.

The only solution to this is to actually have an end to the war or to release non-war torn areas in expansions that players can adventure, explore and make seperate lives in. I guess the difference between me and other gamers is why we PvP. I PvP to help my side achieve victory. If victory is nowhere in sight, fighting becomes dull and depressing. People not like me PvP, because they love the action. They don't care about the social aspects of a game really as I do.

Only time will tell how the game being in a constant war setting will effect the longevity of a player's subscription. The one thing I loved about DAoC is that the game was a world to live in. You could seperate the conflict of the war between the three realms and your characters' individual life. I could explore the Highlands one day, which are peaceful, but not without their own adventures and threats; the next, I could go into the frontiers to support my realm in the ongoing struggle. Every zone in WAR that I've encountered was full of war against your opposing faction. If not in PvE, it was warring in PvP. No where was it really safe to just adventure and let loose.

 

I have never really understood why a person would want to log on to an online computer game that is primarily all about killing things and then try and do something relaxing. If you want to feel relaxed then dont play a game that is about fighting a war. There are plenty of PvE games around that allow you to stand around in virtual taverns twiddling your virtual thumbs and imagining that you are soaking up the virtual atmosphere. They do that in EQ2 where they all gather in taverns and pretend to be doing stuff rather than playing the game.

I would rather be playing the game though and I am finding Warhammer rather good fun. I like the fact that finally I can log on to a game and actually encounter other players that want to cut my head off. Why the hell would I want to stand in a virtual tavern doing buggerall?

You mentioned real life. Why would I want to play a game that is like real life? Great so I can sit down in my room with a drink and some food and log onto an online game where I can sit down in a room with a drink and some food. Yeah that sounds like great fun! But yes your right in real life no-one wants to live in a war torn nation..........but Warhammer isnt real life.......its a game. Killing people in real life sucks but killing people in a computer game is great fun.

You want it to be possible to "win the war"? You want the war to end sometime? Well you can. You play through to the end content and then you stop playing it and go and do something else. Sorry but no-one can EVER complete the story in an mmo. You never beat the big bad guy at the end. You never save the damsel in distress. You never save the city from the forces of evil. You can never really achieve any major goal in an mmo because its static and it always will be. Thats the nature of an mmo. To complete it would mean the end of the game.......all the players would just go back home and live an ordinary life. How exactly would that happen in a game?

"Sorry guys the wars over now. Nothing to kill any more. We're shutting down the servers now cos its all over. We're working on extra content though in which you can all play peaceful characters and do things like baking bread, working the fields, running a shop......all the ordinary things you do in life basicly"

In WAR though you can enjoy the process of the big battle even though we all know it will never end because an mmo is simply a freeze-frame of a place in time. No matter what the game actually is there is always one background story that occurs that never gets mentioned and thats this: There is a little Wizard who sits in another dimension and he has cast a spell over the game world which causes time to freeze which is why no-one ever dies, all the npcs always give everyone the same quests and basicly the whole game world stays static. So no the war will never end in Warhammer because that pesky dimensional Wizard froze time. What a git.

You said a very odd thing at the end. "Nowhere was it really safe to just adventure and let loose". What the hell does that mean? Safe? Adventure? How do those two words fit together......and how do you "let loose"? You want to just wander around an empty landscape and jump about lots? Is that what you mean? Maybe every once in a while you encounter another player and you bow to each other, say "how do you do?", have a little dance, cook a bit of food or something, tell a few jokes and then resume the pressing of the W key as you "explore" the 3d modeled landscape safe in the knowledge that no-one will break the monotonous routine and the warm fuzzy feeling that nothing out of the ordinary is ever going to happen.

Yeah thats why I log on to online games with thousands of people.......NOT!

You loved DAoC because it had a world you could live in? Ermmm no it didnt. It had a 3d landscape populated with the graphics of monsters that waited for your avatar to walk up to them and kill them and then go up levels so you could walk to other areas and kill other graphics of monsters that allowed your avatar to do more of the same....just like every mmo has. The only "individual life" that your avatar had was in your imagination and that can be applied to any game.

This is Warhammer not Peacehammer. War is everywhere and thank god it is cos otherwise I would be bored. If you want a peaceful safe environement where nothing stressful or surprising ever happens then I would recommend a game like Vanguard or EQ2.

Man, i dont understand those people neither and I agree with your point of view.

BTW great article =)

Thanks to Arinas aka Asaf, Neonwire & Thachsanh for the kind comments on my earlier post!  

I'm sure eventually someone will figure out how to translate a novel into a decent MMORPG, we just haven't seen it yet.  It will just take more attempts like Hollywood has been figuring out how to translate some books and comic books into movies - but for every good one there are more bad ones.   MMORPGs will get it eventually. 

Originally posted by Deewe

Where LotRo failed is where AoC was good and WAR excellent : marketing.  Lets say AoC, LotRo and WAR had the same marketing campaing I'd bet 1000 to 1 LotRo would be the #1 game now. And I mark my words even over WOW.

I really have to disagree with that statement.  Whether you like WoW or hate WoW, you can't claim that only marketing gave Blizzard its incredible success.     No game - not LotRO, not AoC and not even WAR would have been able to do what WoW did even with 10 times the marketing.

Certainly much of the hype was the result of Blizzard's track record.   But there was more to it than that.  Hellgate London had an impressive pedigree and look what happned there.  Hellgate was hype with nothing to back it up.

The reason WoW was so successful was not due to marketing brainwashing players.   It was because for the first time ever, a MMORPG finally attracted mainstream gamers who refused to  touch the previous generations of MMORPG for nearly a decade.    Those gamers didn't play those MMORPGs simply because they didn't find them fun. 

Maybe WoW was not as much fun for hardcore, dedicated MMORPG players (like so many on these forums), but WoW was fun for a heck of a lot of gamers outside of the traditional MMORPG niche market.  

Blizzard knew this and they made certain to lift their NDA well before their release and let people play their game at conventions.    This was a marketing strategy but it never would have worked if WoW didn't have something to draw those players in.

I don't like the direction WoW has taken since it's release and I don't play it anymore, but ignoring the reasons WoW became successful is like ignoring the horrible failures of other MMORPGs we've seen.  The only way the genre will evolve is if everyone remembers the history of MMORPGs, both the successes and failures, and not try to make excuses for either.

Originally posted by Alienovrlord

 

I really have to disagree with that statement.  Whether you like WoW or hate WoW, you can't claim that only marketing gave Blizzard its incredible success.     No game - not LotRO, not AoC and not even WAR would have been able to do what WoW did even with 10 times the marketing.

Exactly what I was saying. LotRo has superior, wider diversity gameplay than WoW and with marketing on top it would beat it.

Certainly much of the hype was the result of Blizzard's track record.   But there was more to it than that.  Hellgate London had an impressive pedigree and look what happned there.  Hellgate was hype with nothing to back it up.

Hellgate isn't an MMO, comparison does not apply

The reason WoW was so successful was not due to marketing brainwashing players.   It was because for the first time ever, a MMORPG finally attracted mainstream gamers who refused to  touch the previous generations of MMORPG for nearly a decade.    Those gamers didn't play those MMORPGs simply because they didn't find them fun. 

So? I didn't say WoW is successful only because marketing. My statement is still it's what is making the difference in terms of subscribers between games of high quality.

Maybe WoW was not as much fun for hardcore, dedicated MMORPG players (like so many on these forums), but WoW was fun for a heck of a lot of gamers outside of the traditional MMORPG niche market.  

I'd say otherwise WoW is for hardcore gamers who like to grind for top end equipment. The casual par of WoW is very fast to burn, then you jump into the grin fest : raid, honor, PvP farming.

Blizzard knew this and they made certain to lift their NDA well before their release and let people play their game at conventions.    This was a marketing strategy but it never would have worked if WoW didn't have something to draw those players in.

I don't like the direction WoW has taken since it's release and I don't play it anymore, but ignoring the reasons WoW became successful is like ignoring the horrible failures of other MMORPGs we've seen.  The only way the genre will evolve is if everyone remembers the history of MMORPGs, both the successes and failures, and not try to make excuses for either.

I agree but Blizzard isn't the only one publishing well polished MMO. Even, it was the first to deliver a nearly bugless one. This was a big milestone in MMO evolution.

 

Originally posted by BesCirga 

Hmm.. I have been painting and playing warhammer for 15 years, on and off, and have to call a bs on your painting guidlines. You do not have to follow any basic guidlines when painting models, it solely up to you as a player to paint your army any way you like. It is one of warhammer major points is to make your own fluff and painting ideas. 

".......guide lines you cannot break"   

Well, right back at ya, my friend. You, of course have the freedom to do whatever you wanted to do. You don't have to follow anything. The important thing is, would people accept them like you do when you bring them to play in public? You see, everything will be ok to YOU. It's like a child, he can draw a dog looks like a cow, as long as he does not display it and expect people to accept that is a drawing of  a dog.

You have the freedom to be creative as long as it doesn't go against the IP and lore. You can't just paint the orcs red and go on without any explaination. People will laugh at you. There are guild lines, color theme that a unit traditionally painted with. If you break that, some people will not even let you field those units. If you go paint your Blood Angel unit black, will it still be a Blood Angel unit? You can make your own fluffs, of couse, but when you bring your army out to play with people, will they accept it?

Now, an MMORPG like WAR has to maintain those exact guild lines for the model because it has to have the images that were accepted by the public for so long. If you allow people to have the freedom to change everything like you have with the real model, Games Workshop would not be very pleased if there are giant pink rainbow body color goblins running around. Just like your own painting, you are free to make pink rainbow giant goblin but don't expect to bring them out to play in public and not get laugh at.

Originally posted by Thachsanh

Just like your own painting, you are free to make pink rainbow giant goblin but don't expect to bring them out to play in public and not get laugh at.

No, no! Wait! I want to see pink rainbow giant goblin! You cannot deprive me of that pleasure or I will set a battalion of Turkish horsemen mounted in Ford Escorts on you!