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good luck collecting $6 million. let alone a few thousand if that. _________________ |
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Great victory for the gaming community.
Way to go, Blizzard!! |
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Mithrandolir
Apprentice Member
Joined: 2/28/05
Our doubts are traitors and make us lose the good we oft might win, by fearing to attempt |
not a huge fan of WoW but this deserves a hefty |
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Nice to see people who try to make money off of others success go down hard. |
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In the land of Predators,the lion does not fear the jackals... |
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girlgeek
Elite Member
Joined: 8/14/07
“Mickey Mouse to a three-year-old is a six-foot-tall RAT!” |
Originally posted by romne
This is VERY close to being the most idiotic post I have ever seen on a gaming forum. WHY...please explain this to me...WHY do you buy a game for entertainment and then have someone or someTHING else play it FOR you? People who feel a "need" to bot their way through MMORPGs, need to find a different genre of game to play, IF they even enjoy playing games at ALL. If you just want to "play the end game," then play Warhammer....the other MMOs are NOT going to miss your lazy a$$. (On the other hand...I DARE you to go get a bot to do your RvR in WAR. Mythic will clamp down on you so fast, your stupid little head will spin.) --------------------- |
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If you think questing is grinding, you should try to find something else to do with your spare time. Grats to Blizzard. |
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Originally posted by Suplyndmnd
The arguments and judgment left the value of the goods in the game un-addressed. As it should have. In fact, MDY’s case even states that the tool is only meant as a means to advance to 70 more easily and quickly, and that it discourages customers of the tool to use it as a gold-farming device. Blizzard’s stance did not reference the cash value of anything within the game system. It referenced only the imbalance of play experience when Glider is introduced into the equation for some players. Their arguments stated that the presence of Glider impeded Blizzard’s ability to balance that gameplay experience equally among all paying gamers, and that it provided a means for Glider users to absorb an unintended and unfair amount of game resources (both material and system resources). It further argued that there are lasting negative impacts in-game for the use of bot programs if left unchecked, not the least of which being the destabilization of the in-game economy.
This is not a secondary market case. Period.
-Feyshtey- |
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Originally posted by xaldraxius
False. The two of you really don't understand the situation, or you're grasping at straws trying to justify knowingly cheating. The whole purpose in paying to play a game is to enjoy the journey and the challenge. There are millions of players who don't have such fragile ego's that they feel as though they suck or have failed if they don't have gear or levels as good as anyone else who plays. There are millions who dont even belong to guilds, rarely or never raid, and actually -read- the quests to enjoy the story behind them. These people could care less if you have 10 level 70 characters in full epics and never will. These people play the game, get the levels and gear and gold as they come, and are perfectly satisfied when they complete their personal goals without regard to how many other goals you've completed for yourself. The only impact you have on their gameplay at all, is when they are attempting to do quests or gather tradeskill components for their own use or for sale in the auction house with legitimate means, and they cant because there are botters monopolizing content. And the cost of the goods in the AH works both ways. Anyone who actually understood supply and demand would know that... Yes, the cost of the goods in the AH are lower because the botters introduce so much of it into the economy. Yes, that means that more casual legitimate players can more easily purchase those goods in the AH. But it also means that when a legitimate player earns those goods as they were intended to be earned in the game, they can't sell them for anywhere close to what they otherwise could because the botters have already flooded the market. The botters have -artificially- imbalanced the laws of supply and demand and a direct result is an imbalance in the in-game economy. So instead of selling stacks of ore, or leather, or potions, or pieces of gear for high prices in order to pay some of the high prices from merchants for things like epic flying mounts, those legitimate players are now farming for -much- longer to earn the same money. Do you think they feel as though they have been helped? Clearly the answer is no. But nice try geniuses.
-Feyshtey- |
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Like it or not, the EULA is an agreement between the company who made the game and those who play. Laws are put into place to ensure there are no violations of the agreement between parties. Although I'm grateful to Blizzard for bringing up the case, I'm more grateful for the court enforcing the law. "IF YOU DO NOT AGREE WITH ALL OF THE TERMS OF THIS AGREEMENT, YOU MUST CLICK "REJECT." The Game includes two components: (a) the software program along with any accompanying materials or documentation (collectively, the "Program"), and (b) Blizzard’s proprietary World of Warcraft online service (the "Service"). "Ownership. "You agree that you will not (i) modify or cause to be modified any files that are a part of the Program or the Service; (ii) create or use cheats, bots, "mods", and/or hacks, or any other third-party software designed to modify the World of Warcraft experience; " I HEREBY ACKNOWLEDGE THAT I HAVE READ AND UNDERSTAND THE FOREGOING TERMS OF USE AGREEMENT AND AGREE THAT MY USE OF THE PROGRAM AND/OR THE SERVICE IS AN ACKNOWLEDGMENT OF MY AGREEMENT TO BE BOUND BY THE TERMS AND CONDITIONS OF THIS TERMS OF USE AGREEMENT. Copyright 2006 Blizzard Entertainment, Inc. All rights reserved." http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/legal/termsofuse.html I honestly don't know what's unclear about the above quotes. http://www.allaboutgod.com/ |
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While I think this was the right decision based on current law, I am concerned about the precident for the future. The fact that Blizzard was able to get another judge to support their copyright in regards to RAM is disturbing. Anyhow, upholding a EULA in court is going to become a bad thing for gamers in my opinion. Essentially, if enough EULAs get upheld, they are going to get to the point where "game may change during the course of gameplay" means that a producer / developer can do anything to a game without your having any recourse whatsoever. Just drop over to the SWG Vets forum and see what I mean. |
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Originally posted by romne
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Originally posted by daeandor
This isn't a case of a game company using the EULA to justify doing whatever they wany. This is a case of a company using the EULA to protect their product from 3rd party actions that do have a negative impact not only on the players of the game, but the companies resources to operate the game. I understand your fear, but I don't think it is anywhere close to what you are making it out to be.
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Originally posted by daeandor
This is an unrealistic view of a pretty simple situation. The EULA is first and foremost a contractual agreement between parties. If you don't like the terms outlined within it, dont sign it. As for the hysteria, a contract cannot be enforced d by any court if it is found to violate your rights. You cannot sign away your rights in any contract, no matter how stupid you are in signing the contract without reading it. The contract, or more specifically the parts of the contract that are found to voilate your rights, become void. So if the big mean computer game company is really out to screw you, they're going ot have to be more creative than to outline their intent in the EULA for you ...
-Feyshtey- |
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I used to say the same thing you guys did. And, I realize I kept that simplified, but my original post got lost on the submit button and I didn't feel like retyping all of my reasoning and examples again.
Don't get me wrong either, I think the Bliz vs Wowglider was the correct outcome. The guys at glider knew they were violating the EULA and infringing on Blizard's property. I don't necessarily like the whole implications involved with them getting nailed for something residing in RAM, but that is a whole different subject in my eyes. |
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Originally posted by daeandor
The only purpose for creating a method of copying services to RAM is to help avoid being detected while using an infringing software. No one is going to care if you copy something to RAM unless you are doing it specifically to weasel out of an agreement you made. And if they do care, you are breaking your agreement, and you should get smacked for it. If the agreement was too much for you too stomach from the start, you shouldn't have signed off on it. Unless of course you never agreed to it and you're just trying to pirate the application, in which case you're not just infringing on a copyright. You're blatantly breaking the law and it's a criminal rather than civil action you'll be facing.
-Feyshtey- |
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Anyone actually read the decision? As I understand it, in laymans terms, not legalese, is that Blizzard won because Glider was running concurrently with WOW. What scares me is that this sets a very poor legal precedent in which running other programs (for instance something to encrypt data) could also be illegal.
It's not even on the basis that glider copied the protected memory, copied what was there, modified the copy and then injected it back into the protected memory space. If this ruling isn't insane I don't know what is from a legal standpoint. This is a major can of worms that I'm not sure how it's going to play out within the courts, but this precedent scares the hell out of me.
Conversely I'm happy that glider is getting run through the mill here as I hate both botters and farmers. Botters are obvious cheats, gold selling(and especially buying gold) is more of a grey area but one that I believe violates the spirit of participating within a game.
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Serves them right.
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ummmm...ok mr. "ithinkiknoweverythingaboutWoW" there is a term called Quest grinding..may be a old and outdated term...but it still exists. and no WoW is NOT a quest based game..its a PvP/Arena/Gear/"we think we are cool but we actually have no skill" game |
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girlgeek
Elite Member
Joined: 8/14/07
“Mickey Mouse to a three-year-old is a six-foot-tall RAT!” |
Originally posted by gamerman98
WoW is about as much a PvP game as Warhammer is a PvE game. Pffft. Do you even PLAY WoW? Do you realize how many people have never even set FOOT in a BG or arena? First of all, there are a LOT of people who are in raid guilds, for one. Secondly, not everyone who plays WoW gives a rat's a$$ about "being cool." A lot of players, contrary to seemingly popular belief, are well over the age of 30, and uninterested in impressing the 12 year olds that play. Quest grinding? Uhm...okay. Did you ever consider that perhaps if you think questing is "grinding" that maybe you should just play an FPS or some other kind of game that doesn't require you to read, or follow a story, or follow directions, or interact with other people on any meaningful level other than to see who can "pwn" who in PvP? Hello, McFly? There is a lot more to WoW than PvP, so to call it a "PvP/Arena/Gear" game, is really pretty much, well....ignorant. If you don't like questing and you see it as a monotonous "grind"....wrong genre for you, Buddy. --------------------- |
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I am with many others on here they did not need the money. The right thing to do would be to donate that 6 million to a worthy charity. |
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girlgeek
Elite Member
Joined: 8/14/07
“Mickey Mouse to a three-year-old is a six-foot-tall RAT!” |
Originally posted by AlienShirt
And how do you know for SURE that they didn't? O.o We have no idea what Blizzard does with their money. They may donate to charities. Who's to say they don't? --------------------- |
Originally posted by go4broke
I actually read the decision, and I gave a basic outline of what it contained. It didn't have anything to do with Glider running alongside of WoW. It had to do with: 1) Glider creating copies of WoW processes in RAM in order for Glider to be more difficult to detect (Copy WoW in an unauthorized way to any place constitutes copyright infringement and a breach of the EULA and TOU). 2) Glider being a bot, with is specifically identified as a breach of the EULA and TOU 3) Glider providing a means in which players using it can absorb unintended amounts of in-game resources, and resources on the Blizzard servers, and in doing so breaching the EULA and TOU. 4) Glider producing a destabilizing effect on the in-game WoW economy, which in effect is copyright infringment because the act removes a portion of Blizzard's control over it's own intellectual property. Those are not all the points of the arguments, but none of the remainder had anything at all to do with any program running alongside WoW. The closest the arguments came to that was that Glider allowed WoW to run in manner it was never intended to run. Blizzard doesn't care what else you have running on your system while WoW is running unless those other things running modify the normal function and/or gameplay of WoW. And if those other programs do alter the way WoW runs or the gameplay experience of a person running them, Blizzard has a right to care. Bottom line is that this judgment doesn't set -any- legal precident for running any program alongside any other programs. It sets a legal precident that says if you agree not to modify a program while using it, you can't run other programs that do exactly that. It's not a legal can of worms. It's really freakin simple. Part of the argument -is exactly- that you can't redirect WoW's processes, modify them, and reinsert them. Especially if those steps are done specifically to avoid detection in modifying what the program does after agreeing to terms stipulating that you wont.
I agree with you about the gold sellers completely. But it should be stated here again that this judgment does not impact real-world value of in-game goods at all. It was wholly unaddressed. The major victory here for Blizzard (and future game developers) is that the EULA and TOU were strongly upheld in court. Again. This is a platform that the gold sellers have spoken from for a long time; that the EULA is unenforcable, and the fact that most EULA's forbid secondary market sales can't be enforced. This case proves that the EULA can be enforced, and so the secondary market loses one of its strongest planks unless it can prove that stating the secondary market is forbidden somehow violates the inherent rights of the gold sellers. Which will be a doubly difficult argument to prove after this case as redoubled the strength of the copyright and intellectual property positions of game developers.
-Feyshtey- |
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Originally posted by AlienShirt
By this logic you should donate any money you currently pay to MMO developers to charity. There is no way to argue that you -need- to play computer games. So that ~$15 is not something that you 'need'. Then again, you earned the ~$15 right? What you do with it is no one's business unless you're breaking the law in it's use. If you feel compelled to give it to a charity, great! But if you decide to turn it into $1's and throw it at strippers it's no one's right to say word one. Frankly Blizzard could provide rolls in the stalls of their office bathrooms made from this $6mil judgment for people to wipe their asses with and I wouldn't care less.
-Feyshtey- |
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