If you don't like a grind don't play an RPG. Is that hard concept?
 

As I said in another post complaing about grind in an MMORPG is like complaining that there is nothing to do in The Sims. You're missing the concept completely.

Originally posted by sabutai22

Originally posted by Meeshak

just curious what mmos do you play?

 

 

Well lets see;

Eve-Online - Only because these guys really made something new and no other company has been that bold.

The Saga of Ryzom - I loved their concept and ideas, but slowly became a skill based grind.

Project Entropia - I really enjoy their core game system, but their lack of content turns me off abit.

Guild Wars - I love the fact that i can simply choose a level 20 character to PvP without the hasle of _grinding_ 

Sword of the New World - I Love their pet system

Minions of Mirth - I love their multiclass and skill system

EQ2 - I love their RTM Server Bazaar

and a few others like The 4th Coming, but i highly doubt you would even know what that is.

 

 

I was reading post by post in this thread until I got to this little jewel from the OP. I didn't need to read any further as his "games I play list" summed it up. At least it did so for me.

I have played every game on his list, as an MMO gamer I find it's my duty to at least TRY every MMO on the market, you never know what your missing if you don't try it kinda thing.

Lets see we have EvE - The best sandbox MMO to date - where 80% of it's players have what I call the "Burger King Syndrome" or "BKS". They want it their way right away. Which is why they are playing the only real viable sandbox game on planet earth.

Ryzom - Ok....

Entropia - Why anyone would play this game I have no idea... It is a game designed around those people who would pay real life money for game world shit.....

Guild Wars - 1 of the top 3 PvP games in the last decade - however it's free to play system detracts from it as it is 98% comprised of whiney kids. Gimme  should have called this game Gimme Wars (Gimme is southern speak for give me).

Sword of the New World - Ok so this one might have had a tad of innovation behind it. Still a very weak F2P MMO however.

Minions of Mirth - which at it's very core is an asian MMO grinder.

And EQ2's Bazaar - another place to sell digital items for real money.

So... from what I can tell the op need 1 of 3 things to play an MMO.

1. It has to be free (Ryzom, Guild Wars, Swords of the New World, Minions of Mirth)

2. If not free then must be able to make money playing it, (Entropia, EQ2)

3. It must give the "BKS", ops way right away.

Well, Warhammer doesn't fit into any of these. It isn't free, you can't sell your items, and it isn't a sandbox, you can't have it you way. You can have it how the devs made it for you though.

My suggestion is just keep doing what your doing, real MMO's aren't for you. Only 2 real MMO's you have on your list are EvE and EQ2 that I would recognize as MMO's. Go back to playing 1 of those, make you some real money off your phat lewtz.

Anyway guess I better go catch up with Jeremy AKA tehpwnerer and work on my "Uber Micro". /sarcasm off

Originally posted by crunchyblack

I think you guys are confusing quest difficulty and quest time sinks.

if a mob drops a quest item you can go two routes, both equally easy.

1. make it 1 kill 1 drop

2. make the players grind on the mob for a while to aquire all the drops, some games have 1 drop per 5, others require much more grinding.

#2 is just add more time than #1 and works best for games where per kill xp is very very low.

Warhammer is about removing boring time sinks...aka grinding, more so than most games out there.

The whole point of warhammer is to be fun not time consuming.

So i disagree with the "omg they are dumming down quests because i dont have to grind on a mob for 45min to get all my drops" arguments. Go play any f2p asian grinder out there if you want a hard quest (by your definition) and go grind on amob for a few hours.

Personally i dont kind the "fetch" quests if i know i wont be camping out grinding for the next 45min to complete it.

For everyone asking for a revolutionary "quest system" that doesnt involve killing or fetching, i gurantee it wont be called a mmo.

I like the kill/fetch quests if theres a story behind it or a reason for me doing it.  warhammer probides ample story and reason.  Anyway its not like doing quests is the ONLY thing to do in game, there is plenty of ther means of progressing your character.

What you fail to consider is that there's not just black & white but grey scales. There's not just farm for drops off hundreds of mob, or kill 1 mob for all the drops and ride away for new xp grind wacky adventures.

There might be a third solution of a neither easy, fast, dumb way to get the quest done NOR 50 drops off 100 mobs.

Plus, everyone has its own idea of what's funny, I don't think it's fun to have to kill hundreds of mob to get 5 items, but doing short and silly kill quests isn't either.

And beside all this, time is still sinking due to the time required to run back to the giver, so if you really believe that WAR's purpose is to strip the game off of boring time-sinks, well they certainly didn't succeed at it. 

Originally posted by puma713

Exactly.  I can't count how many times a group of smaller level characters have simply run up to us and started wailing on us, being higher levels or mounted.  I mean, use your brain.  Hide - use your guards to screen you.

Or - *gasp* - use the collision detection to your advantage - that's why they put it in there, so you couldn't blow through a tank to get to the healer. 

People are used to their gear saving them.  Take off the shiny purples, put your brain back in and lets go at it.

Strategy and tactics my warm butt. Nobody will do them, nobody will use collision other than nuisance, nobody will stick to them.

Strategies and guerrilla tactics aren't encouraged and aren't necessary to conquer flags and keeps, numbers of the crowds will do that... just wait until one of the groups has less folks (disconnections? Late for school? having to take a dump?) and go for it, gank the folks and grind on!

Just accept it, man, the PvP at the moment is nowhere near different from random skirmishes in Hillsbrad as We did for a while in every WoW server.

And i didn't enjoy them.

It is a freakin grind fest, but ya know.

Originally posted by natuxatu

If you don't like a grind don't play an RPG. Is that hard concept?
 

As I said in another post complaing about grind in an MMORPG is like complaining that there is nothing to do in The Sims. You're missing the concept completely.

I am FINE with grind. Just gimme a NEW way to do that, not the same old WoW quests!

A different concept of random booth generated's... a building of  "adventurers' commissions bureau", a quests system that instead of being already scripted and provided by NPC's, every player can script out his own task, they "post" it in a bullettin board and players can pick it, with a prize if your adventure is picked a lot.

There definitely are thousands of ways to conceive questing and grind and levelling and basically a "mission mechanic", game designers are just lazy, and they're just afraid of trying untested paths.

How bout, instead of plain quests, identical for everyone, a "profession", or a CALL, if you will, to stick to... im a warrior priest, so i am sposed to manage a parrish, do speeches, convert pagans, lead inquisitors, inspire feudalistic lords, comfort the peasants, find heresy, let people know Sigmar's will, read malleus maleficarum in cities' squares, and what else.

I got news for ya OP, this is an MMO, not a FPS.   /geesh, whine whine whine.

Originally posted by PHInnocent

Originally posted by puma713

Originally posted by sabutai22

So a few thing Mythic has lied about;

 

1. RvR / PvP is ruled by Level (over) Gear (over) skill. No matter how good a player(s) is/are they CAN NOT compete against a group that out level(s) them by any means.

 

So, I guess it doesn't matter that your character is brought up to the current level of the zone in RvR, does it? 

 

We all know it does, but that is done in scenarios only.

Actually, you auto-level up in ANY RvR situation.  If you're level 13 and you go into the Caledor's Triumph from the Shadowlands, you'll auto-up to Battle Rank 18.  Just to clarify.

I'm not sure how an MMO can avoid being a grindfest to some extent later in the game. It depends on your definition of course. There's some kind of grinding in any MMO i've played. Even Eve, although there you're grinding for money rather than xp.

Originally posted by Narshe

Rank 25 now, I have to say I'm not enjoying the sudden grind. I have been running back and forth between every tier 3 zone to try and complete every quest avaiable for chapters 12 and 13 except a couple of the RVR ones, I'm now running out of quests and only halfway to 26.. scenarios are taking ages. I don't like grinding PQs but, I guess I have no choice right now before moving on to the next chapters. Wish there were either a few more quests or better XP rates for them..

Oh, and I'm not a powergamer. I've been exploring every zone and have been taking my time to enjoy it, I just agree that there is a slowdown here..

 

This is correct, XP doesnt seem to scale with level post 22+

If you think the grind to 22 is bad just wait til you will be forced to grind for renown rank 80. Oh and I don't you can completely remove grind from the game, things can't always be that easy to attain all the time.

Originally posted by skydragonren 

I was reading post by post in this thread until I got to this little jewel from the OP. I didn't need to read any further as his "games I play list" summed it up. At least it did so for me.

I have played every game on his list, as an MMO gamer I find it's my duty to at least TRY every MMO on the market, you never know what your missing if you don't try it kinda thing.

Lets see we have EvE - The best sandbox MMO to date - where 80% of it's players have what I call the "Burger King Syndrome" or "BKS". They want it their way right away. Which is why they are playing the only real viable sandbox game on planet earth.

Ryzom - Ok....

Entropia - Why anyone would play this game I have no idea... It is a game designed around those people who would pay real life money for game world shit.....

Guild Wars - 1 of the top 3 PvP games in the last decade - however it's free to play system detracts from it as it is 98% comprised of whiney kids. Gimme  should have called this game Gimme Wars (Gimme is southern speak for give me).

Sword of the New World - Ok so this one might have had a tad of innovation behind it. Still a very weak F2P MMO however.

Minions of Mirth - which at it's very core is an asian MMO grinder.

And EQ2's Bazaar - another place to sell digital items for real money.

 

So... from what I can tell the op need 1 of 3 things to play an MMO.

1. It has to be free (Ryzom, Guild Wars, Swords of the New World, Minions of Mirth)

2. If not free then must be able to make money playing it, (Entropia, EQ2)

3. It must give the "BKS", ops way right away.

 

Well, Warhammer doesn't fit into any of these. It isn't free, you can't sell your items, and it isn't a sandbox, you can't have it you way. You can have it how the devs made it for you though.

 

My suggestion is just keep doing what your doing, real MMO's aren't for you. Only 2 real MMO's you have on your list are EvE and EQ2 that I would recognize as MMO's. Go back to playing 1 of those, make you some real money off your phat lewtz.

 

Anyway guess I better go catch up with Jeremy AKA tehpwnerer and work on my "Uber Micro". /sarcasm off

 

Its too bad there are always people like the above poster that lack the intelligence to see the big picture, then again it could be young age and just lack wisdom!

Originally posted by SaintViktor

If you think the grind to 22 is bad just wait til you will be forced to grind for renown rank 80. Oh and I don't you can completely remove grind from the game, things can't always be that easy to attain all the time.

Here is another classic example of people that lack intelligence or just dont know how to read, so allow me to once again to _hold your hand_ and point you in the correct direction. In the event you dont understand what _POST_ means;

POST = After 

So with that out of the way, please re-read the title of this thread, i didnt say _PRE_ level 22, i said _POST_ level 22 and even added a +

I sure hope WAR doesnt have this persons type of intellect in their community, or we are in trouble!

Surley this is a better thread than a cdkey spam thread, i bet it would look much nicer bumped above all those other spam threads.
 

Originally posted by sabutai22

So a few thing Mythic has lied about;

 

1. RvR / PvP is ruled by Level (over) Gear (over) skill. No matter how good a player(s) is/are they CAN NOT compete against a group that out level(s) them by any means.

So for Mythic having said 60% Skill and 40% Gear is incorrect and false, its more like 80% Level, 19% Gear and 1% Skill (And Skill is debatable since the game will auto turn you if someone tried to stay out of your LoS, not much skill in that!)

Gear also plays a huge role, Anyone that goes into Tier 2 Scenarios with their T1 Gear will not have enough DPS compared to those that are in Tier 2 (with the _LEVEL_ requirement) and their Tier 2 Weapons/Armor.

2. Empty Tier 3 Scenarios taking hours to que up, making anyone thats level 22 having to run PQ and Quests, this is a _HUGE_ boaring grind;

PQ - Kills X number of mobs for X number of times (Not Fun)

Quests - Goto location Z find item Y and then Kill X Number of mobs for X number of times (Not Fun)

RvR (keep seige) - Vastly depends on server and sides, however this once again is ruled mainly by _ZERG_ size followed by number of higher _LEVEL_ players in said _ZERG_ and finally by the active guilds that cordinate said keep seiges.

 

I truely hope Mythic plans something or has something in store for everyone, as it stands now post _LEVEL_ 22 is boaring, slow and very repetative and starting an ALT is even worse since you have to do the entire _SAME_ path all over again! Its bad enough the _LEVEL_ curve is huge and slow!

 

I don't know about that. Last night I, a level 12 Sorc, was playing with level 14-20 players and having a good time. I didn't kill mcuh but learned a lot about survivability against daunting odds.  I pretty much kept up with the higher levels and did quite well. It also helped me learn my roll in a group based on keepiing myself alive. Good times.
 

Originally posted by sabutai22

Originally posted by SaintViktor

If you think the grind to 22 is bad just wait til you will be forced to grind for renown rank 80. Oh and I don't you can completely remove grind from the game, things can't always be that easy to attain all the time.

 

Here is another classic example of people that lack intelligence or just dont know how to read, so allow me to once again to _hold your hand_ and point you in the correct direction. In the event you dont understand what _POST_ means;

 

POST = After 

So with that out of the way, please re-read the title of this thread, i didnt say _PRE_ level 22, i said _POST_ level 22 and even added a +

I sure hope WAR doesnt have this persons type of intellect in their community, or we are in trouble!

 

Nah we'll do fine, when you leaving?
 

Originally posted by sabutai22

Originally posted by skydragonren 

I was reading post by post in this thread until I got to this little jewel from the OP. I didn't need to read any further as his "games I play list" summed it up. At least it did so for me.

I have played every game on his list, as an MMO gamer I find it's my duty to at least TRY every MMO on the market, you never know what your missing if you don't try it kinda thing.

Lets see we have EvE - The best sandbox MMO to date - where 80% of it's players have what I call the "Burger King Syndrome" or "BKS". They want it their way right away. Which is why they are playing the only real viable sandbox game on planet earth.

Ryzom - Ok....

Entropia - Why anyone would play this game I have no idea... It is a game designed around those people who would pay real life money for game world shit.....

Guild Wars - 1 of the top 3 PvP games in the last decade - however it's free to play system detracts from it as it is 98% comprised of whiney kids. Gimme  should have called this game Gimme Wars (Gimme is southern speak for give me).

Sword of the New World - Ok so this one might have had a tad of innovation behind it. Still a very weak F2P MMO however.

Minions of Mirth - which at it's very core is an asian MMO grinder.

And EQ2's Bazaar - another place to sell digital items for real money.

 

So... from what I can tell the op need 1 of 3 things to play an MMO.

1. It has to be free (Ryzom, Guild Wars, Swords of the New World, Minions of Mirth)

2. If not free then must be able to make money playing it, (Entropia, EQ2)

3. It must give the "BKS", ops way right away.

 

Well, Warhammer doesn't fit into any of these. It isn't free, you can't sell your items, and it isn't a sandbox, you can't have it you way. You can have it how the devs made it for you though.

 

My suggestion is just keep doing what your doing, real MMO's aren't for you. Only 2 real MMO's you have on your list are EvE and EQ2 that I would recognize as MMO's. Go back to playing 1 of those, make you some real money off your phat lewtz.

 

Anyway guess I better go catch up with Jeremy AKA tehpwnerer and work on my "Uber Micro". /sarcasm off

 

 

Its too bad there are always people like the above poster that lack the intelligence to see the big picture, then again it could be young age and just lack wisdom!

 

You should be the last person to talk about age and lack of wisdom. Now please pack your bags and good bye.

I rarely post here and I wonder at most times why I read the trash that's on these forums.  So I'm a 25 year old gamer that's been playing mmo's since I was 14 years old.  That makes 11 years gaming in mmo's.  My first MMO that I ever played was on AOL for $1.99 per hour called Legends of Kesmai.  I've played almost every mmo released in the US both F2P and P2P.  I've played all of Mythic entertainments game including Magestorm and Darkness Falls Crusade (MUD).  I'm not a Mythic fanboi by any means but I will say that Dark Age of Camelot probably is my favorite MMO of all time even considering it's problems and issues.

To the OP:

Out of all the mmo's that I've ever played Guild Wars is the only game where you can reach max level quicker than Warhammer.  If anything Mythic has taken the leveling curve almost completely out of the game.  Try playing EQ1, Daoc (when it was originally released), Anarchy Online, EQ2, Pretty much any F2P mmo on the market including Sword of the New World, Minions of Mirth, (Old School) The 4th Coming.  Many of those games in fact were ones that you yourself mentioned.  All of these games have more of a grind then Warhammer.

There has been a gradual progression over the past 11 years of taking the leveling time sink out of mmo's in general.  I agree with many of the other posters when I say that If you can't handle the watered down leveling grind that exists in Warhammer then maybe you shouldn't be playing MMO's at all. 

Hey...how be, instead of just complaining about the type/style of quests (ie: kill x and turn in, etc)...come up with an alternative.  As I used to say in the Army....give me solutions, NOT problems.

Very, very easy to slag points in ANY game...but not so easy to create/devise an effective alternative.  Every mmo u play, ( and i've played EQ2, EVE, WoW, Guild Wars, Tabula Rasa, LoTRO, FFXI) has questing...and they are ALL very similar.  If u playing a game that requires/implements levelling - can't really see how u can get around running quests or missions.  Or, perhaps someone on this post has the solution!?  If so...maybe u wanna get into game development.

The quests in this game are fairly varied, and until a 'system' is implemented that knocks questing right out of the mmo equation....these will do nicely.

Having spent years playing eq I gotta say I miss nice solid group grinds.  I know people are probably gonna say I'm nuts but I have many fond memories of camping mobs and camping dungeons.  I can think back on littereally hundreds of camp locations and fondly remember groups and people I played with.  I mean the grinding is one thing but the group chit chat and general bonding is another.  Today a lot of this bonding is gone and there isn't much teamwork.  Games like Wow which make the entire game progression based on solo questing feel a lot more like a boring grind to me.  I mean I like the story line but all the solo running and stuff gets old after 50-100 hours.

This is something I think vanguard did good.  Vanguard brought back the group camping while also including the questing at both group and solo levels making it a hybrid of old and new school mmos.

It can't be possible that it becomes a grindfest so soon... Maybe you didn't find the right path to move on.

Originally posted by sabutai22

So a few thing Mythic has lied about;

 

1. RvR / PvP is ruled by Level (over) Gear (over) skill. No matter how good a player(s) is/are they CAN NOT compete against a group that out level(s) them by any means.

While Level and Gear help I definitely have to disagree.  Had a guild group of lvl 15-16s and we tore up people higher level then us because we knew how to work together.  However, if you play someone of equal skill to you, then yes gear and level are going to be the deciding factor. 

So for Mythic having said 60% Skill and 40% Gear is incorrect and false, its more like 80% Level, 19% Gear and 1% Skill (And Skill is debatable since the game will auto turn you if someone tried to stay out of your LoS, not much skill in that!)

My guess is that you are not nearly as good as you think you are.

Gear also plays a huge role, Anyone that goes into Tier 2 Scenarios with their T1 Gear will not have enough DPS compared to those that are in Tier 2 (with the _LEVEL_ requirement) and their Tier 2 Weapons/Armor.

While gear definitely does play a factor, you can still do quite well at lower levels with lower gear, but if you are low level AND have crappy gear for your level, then your starting to make things very difficult for yourself.

2. Empty Tier 3 Scenarios taking hours to que up, making anyone thats level 22 having to run PQ and Quests, this is a _HUGE_ boaring grind;

After the new patch i haven't had to wait longer than 30 seconds for a T3 scenario.

PQ - Kills X number of mobs for X number of times (Not Fun)

The opening stage of a pq- unlocks the true part of a pq.  I blew a Bloodthirster off a mountain the other day and that was kinda cool.

Quests - Goto location Z find item Y and then Kill X Number of mobs for X number of times (Not Fun)

Sometimes thats the case- sometimes not- many unique quests you just have to find them. 

RvR (keep seige) - Vastly depends on server and sides, however this once again is ruled mainly by _ZERG_ size followed by number of higher _LEVEL_ players in said _ZERG_ and finally by the active guilds that cordinate said keep seiges.

 Large scale RvR controlled by active guilds that use coordination?  PROPOSTEROUS!

I truely hope Mythic plans something or has something in store for everyone, as it stands now post _LEVEL_ 22 is boaring, slow and very repetative and starting an ALT is even worse since you have to do the entire _SAME_ path all over again! Its bad enough the _LEVEL_ curve is huge and slow!

 Really?  This game is slow?  Hell, I get anywhere from 12k to 22k a scenario before victory bonus.  Not to mention the quests and PQs get infinitely cooler as you level.

My Conclusion based on your arguments.  You are not good at this game.  Period. 

it is, its already a grindfest after level 12 and its damn boring tbh. i gave up on it.

more cash lost after AoC was a ripoff already,

It is so far from a grind imo. You can do many things within any given time. You don t feel like questing , jump in a scenario, thats getting boring do some PQ. Join a warband and take some keeps. I really don t know why it s so hard for some people, but if they feel it s a grind i guess i can t argue it, i find it the complete opposite becuase i always have something to do.

you dont even know why i was writing this. why do you give your comments to something that you have no clue about ?

this boy insulted me and some others in almost every single post he made.

maybe you wanna think before you write something about something that you know nothing about ?

and btw, if you want to be a hero and defend somebody go to the army, they need people like you.