Originally posted by Noggin

Originally posted by Rabenwolf

Originally posted by Noggin

Yes Warhammer holds your hand and leads you through the world and level progression, nobody can say otherwise.

 

Warhammer isn't a sandbox and it's not trying nor pretending to be.

 

What you describe covers so many games, many of them very popular.

 

I'm not sure what you're trying to achieve with this post really, you could change the word Warhammer to a vast number of other titles and many points would still apply with regards to how characters progress through a game with levels.

 

What Mythic have done, for the most part, isn't anything new, anyone can see that, but what they have done is looked at many other games, drawn from their experience and repackaged it all under a great IP with some nice innovations of their own on top.

 

It worked and it's a really fun experience.

 

You didnt read the original post did you? If you did you chose to ignore it because you felt the need to counter it for most likely personal satisfaction.

Read it again. I made it clear it was designed that way. I made it clear that is a fun game. You just refuse to read, and in turn act stupid by ignoring the contents of the original post.

I'm sorry I wasted my time here. Thankfully the servers are up now.

I wish I had the same option.  Sitting at work reading this same crap all day long makes me wonder how the world has made it to where it is today.  OP, you have nothing more than conjectures here.  Your arguments over semantics are meaningless and unwarranted.

Originally posted by Locklain

Originally posted by Noggin

Originally posted by Rabenwolf

Originally posted by Noggin

Yes Warhammer holds your hand and leads you through the world and level progression, nobody can say otherwise.

 

Warhammer isn't a sandbox and it's not trying nor pretending to be.

 

What you describe covers so many games, many of them very popular.

 

I'm not sure what you're trying to achieve with this post really, you could change the word Warhammer to a vast number of other titles and many points would still apply with regards to how characters progress through a game with levels.

 

What Mythic have done, for the most part, isn't anything new, anyone can see that, but what they have done is looked at many other games, drawn from their experience and repackaged it all under a great IP with some nice innovations of their own on top.

 

It worked and it's a really fun experience.

 

You didnt read the original post did you? If you did you chose to ignore it because you felt the need to counter it for most likely personal satisfaction.

Read it again. I made it clear it was designed that way. I made it clear that is a fun game. You just refuse to read, and in turn act stupid by ignoring the contents of the original post.

I'm sorry I wasted my time here. Thankfully the servers are up now.

I wish I had the same option.  Sitting at work reading this same crap all day long makes me wonder how the world has made it to where it is today.  OP, you have nothing more than conjectures here.  Your arguments over semantics are meaningless and unwarranted.

Semantics? Champ, I'm talking about game design here. Dont take it out on me because you are bitter at work. Again your problem is you have 0 ability as far as reading comprehension goes. You just jumped the gun and didnt read anything, much less understand and reply appropriately. You seem to think everything is a troll post if "WAR is the bestest best omg iloveits" in the subject line. Grow up.

I have a hard time to understand the OP trying to sound smart with all this talk about a ladder.

FACT: Warhammer has 11 Maps per racial pairing plus 2 Fortress zones and 2 city zone (45 total)
FACT: Warhammer has a total of 8 Scenarios per racial pairing (32 total)
FACT: Warhammer has 6 RvR lakes per racial pairing (18 total)

You can participate in all of the above. you are not limited to, as the OP put it, "3 maps broken into 1,2,3,4", that statement that is simply put, WRONG!

The OP obviously has no idea what he is talking about and obviously knows nothing about the game.

OP Please explain to me why this game has no character development! There are more than enough options to develop your character or idividualize it. Maybe you should define character development for us so we know what you mean. Here is what you can do in Warhammer:

A. Gear

A.1 Loot Gear
A.2 PQ Gear
A.3 Renown Gear
A.4 Epic Quest Gear (very long special quests that span 3 tiers)

B. Tactics

B.1 Core Tactics
B.2 Renown Tactics
B.3 Tome Tactics

C. Abilities

C.1 Core Abilities
C.2 Renown Abilities
C.3 Tome/Quest Abilities

D. Mastery (3 Branches that can be mixed)

Of cause you can also dye your armor or put up to 5 Trophies on it. I fail to see the OPs point of this beeing a ladder or limited in any way.

Please enlighten us OP, what exactly where you trying to say with your post?

Originally posted by Rabenwolf

Originally posted by Locklain

Originally posted by Noggin

Originally posted by Rabenwolf

Originally posted by Noggin

Yes Warhammer holds your hand and leads you through the world and level progression, nobody can say otherwise.

 

Warhammer isn't a sandbox and it's not trying nor pretending to be.

 

What you describe covers so many games, many of them very popular.

 

I'm not sure what you're trying to achieve with this post really, you could change the word Warhammer to a vast number of other titles and many points would still apply with regards to how characters progress through a game with levels.

 

What Mythic have done, for the most part, isn't anything new, anyone can see that, but what they have done is looked at many other games, drawn from their experience and repackaged it all under a great IP with some nice innovations of their own on top.

 

It worked and it's a really fun experience.

 

You didnt read the original post did you? If you did you chose to ignore it because you felt the need to counter it for most likely personal satisfaction.

Read it again. I made it clear it was designed that way. I made it clear that is a fun game. You just refuse to read, and in turn act stupid by ignoring the contents of the original post.

I'm sorry I wasted my time here. Thankfully the servers are up now.

I wish I had the same option.  Sitting at work reading this same crap all day long makes me wonder how the world has made it to where it is today.  OP, you have nothing more than conjectures here.  Your arguments over semantics are meaningless and unwarranted.

 

Semantics? Champ, I'm talking about game design here. Dont take it out on me because you are bitter at work. Again your problem is you have 0 ability as far as reading comprehension goes. You just jumped the gun and didnt read anything, much less understand and reply appropriately. You seem to think everything is a troll post if "WAR is the bestest best omg iloveits" in the subject line. Grow up.

Yeah i'm noticing that also, the fanatics need to stop jumping down everyones throats just becuase something is brought up, they don't don't help the game they hurt it with there attitude that nothing is wrong, not saying your saying anything is wrong since i actually did read the post =P

Hmm where is that guy with the Samuel L Jackson sig hehe.

Originally posted by Rabenwolf

Originally posted by Locklain

Originally posted by Noggin

Originally posted by Rabenwolf

Originally posted by Noggin

Yes Warhammer holds your hand and leads you through the world and level progression, nobody can say otherwise.

 

Warhammer isn't a sandbox and it's not trying nor pretending to be.

 

What you describe covers so many games, many of them very popular.

 

I'm not sure what you're trying to achieve with this post really, you could change the word Warhammer to a vast number of other titles and many points would still apply with regards to how characters progress through a game with levels.

 

What Mythic have done, for the most part, isn't anything new, anyone can see that, but what they have done is looked at many other games, drawn from their experience and repackaged it all under a great IP with some nice innovations of their own on top.

 

It worked and it's a really fun experience.

 

You didnt read the original post did you? If you did you chose to ignore it because you felt the need to counter it for most likely personal satisfaction.

Read it again. I made it clear it was designed that way. I made it clear that is a fun game. You just refuse to read, and in turn act stupid by ignoring the contents of the original post.

I'm sorry I wasted my time here. Thankfully the servers are up now.

I wish I had the same option.  Sitting at work reading this same crap all day long makes me wonder how the world has made it to where it is today.  OP, you have nothing more than conjectures here.  Your arguments over semantics are meaningless and unwarranted.

 

Semantics? Champ, I'm talking about game design here. Dont take it out on me because you are bitter at work. Again your problem is you have 0 ability as far as reading comprehension goes. You just jumped the gun and didnt read anything, much less understand and reply appropriately. You seem to think everything is a troll post if "WAR is the bestest best omg iloveits" in the subject line. Grow up.

Your telling me to grow up and you post this; "You seem to think everything is a troll post if "WAR is the bestest best omg iloveits" in the subject line."  Cute, just cute.

My reading comprehension is just fine.  Your here complaining about how WAR is a ladder yet you "Love" it.  What you fail to see is that every bloody game out there has the same "design". 

Originally posted by Scalebane

Originally posted by Rabenwolf

Originally posted by Locklain

Originally posted by Noggin

Originally posted by Rabenwolf

Originally posted by Noggin

Yes Warhammer holds your hand and leads you through the world and level progression, nobody can say otherwise.

 

Warhammer isn't a sandbox and it's not trying nor pretending to be.

 

What you describe covers so many games, many of them very popular.

 

I'm not sure what you're trying to achieve with this post really, you could change the word Warhammer to a vast number of other titles and many points would still apply with regards to how characters progress through a game with levels.

 

What Mythic have done, for the most part, isn't anything new, anyone can see that, but what they have done is looked at many other games, drawn from their experience and repackaged it all under a great IP with some nice innovations of their own on top.

 

It worked and it's a really fun experience.

 

You didnt read the original post did you? If you did you chose to ignore it because you felt the need to counter it for most likely personal satisfaction.

Read it again. I made it clear it was designed that way. I made it clear that is a fun game. You just refuse to read, and in turn act stupid by ignoring the contents of the original post.

I'm sorry I wasted my time here. Thankfully the servers are up now.

I wish I had the same option.  Sitting at work reading this same crap all day long makes me wonder how the world has made it to where it is today.  OP, you have nothing more than conjectures here.  Your arguments over semantics are meaningless and unwarranted.

 

Semantics? Champ, I'm talking about game design here. Dont take it out on me because you are bitter at work. Again your problem is you have 0 ability as far as reading comprehension goes. You just jumped the gun and didnt read anything, much less understand and reply appropriately. You seem to think everything is a troll post if "WAR is the bestest best omg iloveits" in the subject line. Grow up.

Yeah i'm noticing that also, the fanatics need to stop jumping down everyones throats just becuase something is brought up, they don't don't help the game they hurt it with there attitude that nothing is wrong, not saying your saying anything is wrong since i actually did read the post =P

Hmm where is that guy with the Samuel L Jackson sig hehe.

. . .and everyone with a subjective opinion is a fanboy?  Your logic is just as spot-on as the OP's.

Originally posted by Locklain

My reading comprehension is just fine.  Your here complaining about how WAR is a ladder yet you "Love" it.  What you fail to see is that every bloody game out there has the same "design". 

 

And yet, ^ this shows how much you know about game design.  In fact, many of todays mmorpgs are quite different in their design and approach. While as rpgs they have to share at least some similar game features to be a part of the genre, they do not always have the same delivery.

Please just stop if all you can do is attack thread after thread if you have nothing else to do at work. Heres a suggestion though, if you are at work...makes sense to ya know... WORK?

Originally posted by Rabenwolf

Originally posted by Locklain

My reading comprehension is just fine.  Your here complaining about how WAR is a ladder yet you "Love" it.  What you fail to see is that every bloody game out there has the same "design". 

 

 

And yet, ^ this shows how much you know about game design.  In fact, many of todays mmorpgs are quite different in their design and approach. While as rpgs they have to share at least some similar game features to be a part of the genre, they do not always have the same delivery.

Please just stop if all you can do is attack thread after thread if you have nothing else to do at work. Heres a suggestion though, if you are at work...makes sense to ya know... WORK?

Sorry to tell ya Raben, but I will do as I wish when I wish.  You of all people won't tell me what to do. 

Lets go back to the basics shall we?  Most MMOs if not all of them are based off old D&D rules.  You roll a dice to make a successful attack and roll another to determine your damage.  You still hanging in there?  Good.

Next up we have levels, how do they work you ask?  Well they work like this; 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10.  Now with your ladder theory, what game out there jumps from 1 to 10?  Since you have level based games.  You cannot jump from level 1 to 10 so you can not jump from the starting grounds to the middle of the game.  You have to follow the LADDER built into the game design.  If you can't understand this maybe YOU should reread your post.

Now to get down to your level lets name a few games for you.  World of Laddercraft, Lord of the Ladders, Ladderwars, Ladderquest 2, you see where I am going here?

Originally posted by taus01

I have a hard time to understand the OP trying to sound smart with all this talk about a ladder.

FACT: Warhammer has 11 Maps per racial pairing plus 2 Fortress zones and 2 city zone (45 total)
FACT: Warhammer has a total of 8 Scenarios per racial pairing (32 total)
FACT: Warhammer has 6 RvR lakes per racial pairing (18 total)

You can participate in all of the above. you are not limited to, as the OP put it, "3 maps broken into 1,2,3,4", that statement that is simply put, WRONG!

The OP obviously has no idea what he is talking about and obviously knows nothing about the game.

OP Please explain to me why this game has no character development! There are more than enough options to develop your character or idividualize it. Maybe you should define character development for us so we know what you mean. Here is what you can do in Warhammer:

A. Gear

A.1 Loot Gear
A.2 PQ Gear
A.3 Renown Gear
A.4 Epic Quest Gear (very long special quests that span 3 tiers)

B. Tactics

B.1 Core Tactics
B.2 Renown Tactics
B.3 Tome Tactics

C. Abilities

C.1 Core Abilities
C.2 Renown Abilities
C.3 Tome/Quest Abilities

D. Mastery (3 Branches that can be mixed)

Of cause you can also dye your armor or put up to 5 Trophies on it. I fail to see the OPs point of this beeing a ladder or limited in any way.

Please enlighten us OP, what exactly where you trying to say with your post?

Here this guy did half the work for me, before I begin I would just like to state that the OP is 100% correct in everything he is stating, for some reason people just can't read or remove the rose tinted glasses long enough to understand what he is saying.

Ok, so the above guy posted some "FACTS". Yes these are all facts good job :-)

Now lets examine these.

FACT: Warhammer has 11 Maps per racial pairing plus 2 Fortress zones and 2 city zone (45 total)

Ok so lets say we have Dwarves and Greens

3 maps -> 1 Fortress -> 1 City

The maps are laid out in progression form.

map 1 = Tier 1

map 2 = Tier 2

Map 3 = Tier 3

Fortress Map Area

map 1 = levels 1-11

map 2 = levels 12 - 22

map 3 = levels 22 - 34

Fortress map = 34 - 40

You can't be level 11 and go run around doing the quest and rvr in map 3. You just can't. This is ladder progression and you skipped the first 2 steps on the ladder.

This is the point of the op. In regards to the world.

"You can participate in all of the above. you are not limited to, as the OP put it, "3 maps broken into 1,2,3,4", that statement that is simply put, WRONG!"

This statement is false.

We will take a look at the Order side for a sec. Nordland.

This zone is broken into 4 Tiers.

We will look at it from a PQ perspective.

Starting out at level 1 I will give you the pepsi challenge to take your level 1 anything and run your lil happy self down near Gotland and participate in any of the Chapter 4 PQ's.

I bet you anything you get 1 shotted by those Champion 10 mobs covering the place.

Now why would this be the case.... prolly because you were ment to do Stage 1, 2 and 3 PQ quest in order to get the "gear" and levels needed to help and be effective at this particular stage of the game. If I caught a level 1 in the stage 4 PQ's I would punch him in the face.

In essence it is a ladder, you should be doing PQ 1,2, and 3 before 4.

Even the gear is a ladder.

We will take realm gear for a sec, you will notice that if you click on any RR vendor at level 4 you have access to a few gear options, if you return to this vendor at level 8, WHAT!? say it isn't so he has more options!!!!?!?!!?

Why would this be? Maybe because you unlocked your next ladder step of armor I would assume.

Anyway you guys are all jumping down the OP's case because he laid out WAR's very Ladder based game design and mechanics in which case he is 100% right.

Nothing wrong with stating it. He likes the game, hell I like the game, but it is one very long and linear ladder climb.

Yeah all games have a similar design, it is just the core to WAR. Deal with it.

Originally posted by Cabe2323

Originally posted by Noggin

Originally posted by Rabenwolf

minimal character development.

 

 

I just picked up on this point and I wondered exactly what you meant.

 

There are more ways to shape your character in Warhammer than I've seen in most games.

 

First, Mastery Points (Talent Trees)

Second, Renown Points (Alter your stats, resistances, xp gain rate and other things)

Third, Tactics I think you can have 5 or 6 tactics and 10 sets of those to switch between.

Forth, Morale abilities - There are many combinations of these.

Fifth, Talismans and Gear.

 

These are 5 ways that I can think of of the top of my head to develop your character.

 

How is that minimal?

 

Exactly. 

The OP made this post to troll WAR but either "A" hasn't read about the game, "B" hasn't played the game, or "C" just wants to troll even knowing what he is saying is false. 

Warhammer has more character customization then World of Warcraft does. 

Warhammer has a large open world and isn't all closed off like AoC or Guild Wars. 

 

I read the first post and the first thing I thought was TROLL. 

 This is one of the most useless posts I have ever seen.  The fact that you compare an RPG to a ladder is like comparing the sky to openness.  You have stated the obvious and then have tried to come off as an intelligent insider so you could put down those who bring up issue with what you are saying.

So what purpose does stating the obvious have?  Well, none.  Anyone with (contrary to what you have claimed) reading comprehension would pick up on your ulterior motive of trying to belittle Warhammer Online.  I will explain why just a few things are incorrect:

The maps are a linear ladder?

Well, first of all, at any level you might be, you can travel to any spot in the world.  Sure, you will get killed, but the world is open.  Yes, each tier you must load into, but this is most likely for performance reasons.  At least you actually have to travel to the spot where tiers connect (unlike AoC).  You claim that the world is sectioned off into tiers and levels.  This isn't totally true.  The world is labeled, not partitioned.  Like I said, you can travel anywhere, but if you travel to a tier 3 area, you will know what to expect.

Character progression is a ladder?

This is mostly true, but each class has different masteries.

Once again, what you said in your post was mostly true, but it was pointing out the obvious.  This can serve no purpose other than to win a semantic battle of trying to show how WAR isn't some golden prodigy.  WAR is more of an MMO than most MMOs.  In fact, since around 2002, many games have come out with the word "MMO" in the title, yet they weren't actually MMOs (Guild Wars for example).

Historically, sandbox games do not do very well.  Some can sustain themselves with a small to moderate population, and keep growing over time.  (EVE, for example.)  Many, however, fail or constantly struggle.  (Saga of Ryzom)  The only real sandbox that I know of that's in development right now is Darkfall, and its future is already iffy.  Even if it does manage to deliver on everything it promises, will a sandbox -- no matter how perfectly implemented -- become enough of a success to spark interest among developers in creating this kind of game?  And more importantly, will it be enough of a success to show investors that they're not throwing their money away if they back such a game?

Games today are a huge investment.  10's to 100's of millions of dollars.  Investors do not like risk.  They like profits.  So it's no surprise that the majority of MMO development goes toward non-sandbox games.  Those are the games that historically fare the best.

At least Warhammer is trying to be more than much of its competition.  Most of the popular MMO's give you only one thing to do for your character's career:  PvE.  Then at max level they change the game to various time sinks in order to keep you paying your $15 a month.  WoW is an excellent example of this.  WAR took the approach of making PvE, world RvR and instanced RvR all equally viable methods of advancing your character.  So yes, it is a ladder to climb.  But at least you have multiple ladders side by side and can move between them at will.  That's more of a sandbox than you get with WoW.

The OP's point is very well taken.  But is it realistic in today's market?

@skydragon

If you talk about linear progression, then every MMO is a ladder so the point the OP made is totally useless. Why was this even worth a post if all he was going to say is "This game has character progression dependant content"?

>>

The maps are laid out in progression form.

map 1 = Tier 1
map 2 = Tier 2
Map 3 = Tier 3
Fortress Map Area

>>

WRONG, There are 6 maps for Tier 1 and you can go to all of them while you are in that level range. There are 12 Maps you can go to in Tier 4. So to use the OPs terminology, it is a "very wide ladder".

This whole conversation is pointless as both skydragon and the OP know nothing about the game.

My challange stands however, name me one MMO that is not character dependant progression. JUST ONE!

this thread is funny, OP needs to give me some of what you been smoking.  You have dodge the question the whole thread.  I CHALLENGE YOU! WHY IS THERE MINIMAL CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT.  i know you think your smart, but you can really see through your writing and it comes off to me as a big troll.  Yes the game is linear....but if you know so much about game design you would know that the way it is developed is part of the games appeal.  Going from each tier, the game seems to become more epic.....tier one is fun but bland like any other 10levels in other mmos, you dont know your character well and there is not much customizing ( iam guessing OP has not played past Tier 1) iam currently lvl 14 in tier 2....the scenario becomes better , you get tatics, morals, and mastery points.... armor starts looking better, and you know your character, and your abilities start shaping.  I cant wait until tier 3

>.< you guys suck some major ass! :) ---a Ladderless MMO world would be Vanguad/LotrO etc. -bah! you aren't forced to go up and down- no left right- just as he descriped- multiple times- multiple times- damn 15yr olds-

Originally posted by aurick The OP's point is very well taken.  But is it realistic in today's market?

Historically, sandbox games do not do very well.  Some can sustain themselves with a small to moderate population, and keep growing over time.  (EVE, for example.) 

How is EVE a sandbox or not as the OP put it ladder based? It is just cleverly hidden but EVE is a ladder as all MMOs are. Just because there is no character level does not make EVE special. In EVE the ladder is standing with Corporations, that is essentially a level. In EVE your level is also defined by the amount of time you trained which translates to experience. You can not train battlecruiser before you learned spaceship command IV and Cruiser III, it is a ladder as all other games are.

Just had to comment on this, EVE is a very good MMO, but it is the same as all the others in terms of ladder or linear progression.

listen all games are a ladder, and no I do not know why the op made the post to state such an obvious issue. Which really isn't an issue at all it is just basic game design in the year 2008.

Fact still remains WAR is one huge ass ladder in every aspect of the game. There is no discussion about it, none needed, it's a ladder that is all there is to it.

Period....

Its just an overly simplistic analogy, comparing an mmo to a ladder. The fact that the OP is putting so much mental effort to stress his little revelation I think really shows how simplistic his thinking is.
If you don’t like at least some sort of linear game play, don’t play mmos…even “sandbox” mmos offer some sort of linear progression.

So in response to the ladder comparison, I do agree, but I would have to point out that warhammer currently offers more ladders in which to progress by than the current popular mmo’s. Also I should add that most of war’s multiple ladders are much more fun than the traditional single ladder pve mmo model that offers some limited pvp at the top of its only ladder.

Enough of this ladder talk, someone think of something more creative.

Originally posted by skydragonren

listen all games are a ladder, and no I do not know why the op made the post to state such an obvious issue. Which really isn't an issue at all it is just basic game design in the year 2008.

 

Fact still remains WAR is one huge ass ladder in every aspect of the game. There is no discussion about it, none needed, it's a ladder that is all there is to it.

 

Period....

Nor do I understand why the OP argued with me about it.  I stated so in my first post in this topic.

Originally posted by Rabenwolf

First off, I love WAR. Its fun, enjoyable, and entertaining. Dont take this as a flame, but it would be nice for the player base to recognize it for what it is.

Warhammer = Linear Ladder system + Counter strike + minimal character development.

I like counter strike, i like unreal tournament, i love the one side vs another side pvp, I also like rpgs and the depth of character development they bring.

If you really think about it, you have 3 maps, with players running around in them and they are broken up into 1, 2, 3, and 4. Its a ladder. There is no world, there is no sandbox, no actual depth to the game world. Its just zone 1-4 in which you pvp. There are 3 ladders which you can pick from but they are the same.

Its more like... Spore. You start off small, and just advance into the next stage, then the next and thats it.

The items and character development are very very very very minimal. It reminds me of the korean f2p mmorpg item types in which you have one set per 10 levels and they are all the same look wise except for a few stat changes here and there.

Further more, even the career paths are ladders.

Basically Warhammer online is one big digital Ladder. aka the WARLadder Online.

Its fun, but its also very linear compared to other MMORPGs on the market. Its a clever illusion, which is the basis of game design, but like games like Guild Wars, and even AoC's instance world play, Mythic is making short cuts to get around actually designing a mmorpg world which many have come to expect from the games that started it all.

Its not a bad thing, it funnels the pvp, keeps it organized, but its missing the spirit and design of a full fledged mmorpg.

 

I have only one question for you:  Have you even played outside the scenarios yet?  I didn't think so.