General Discussion

Most shooter style perhaps, maybe DDO spolied me with their version of real time combat. You still have things such as abilities/powers (feats and enhancements in DDO along with class abilities), you also have positioning (a bonus to hit for being behind an opponent) and dodging attacks. It really depends on the implimentation.

I'd vote real time if it was ever perfectly implemented in an MMO. But sadly I haven't really seen any MMOs that have made real time combat function properly. The closest I think was AoC, at least for melee combat. They still failed in the sense that people could charge up their super attacks and failed in the sense that they didn't use real time combat for ranged types (other then rangers, getting a 25% damage buff if they chose to do so). They were smart enough to realize that from a range it gives far too much of an advantage to melee types.

Originally posted by rikilii 

Even if it were limited to 3 choices (and it's not), that would make it 2 more choices than most FPS combat:  1.  Point/click.

You've never played an FPS competitively (multiplayer).  That is the only explanation for this ignorance.  Try coordinating 30+ people in a large tactical maneuver against other live opponents.  Stuff like you'd find in PlanetSide.  The galaxy drops to crack a gen.  The MAX crashes.  The heavy bombing runs.  Learning how to cover a hallway properly.  How to enter a room properly.  There are RL infantry and vehicle maneuvers for all of these.

My most cherished PlanetSide memories are operating as part of a light cavalry reconaissance screening force.  It was absolutely amazing to see that my RL Army experience as a 19D, and conducting various mobile recon operations, actually worked in the game and that said tactics, with good communication, would own people.  Stuff like leapfrogging.  Traveling overwatch.

You know, a ton of things you've never heard of and have absolutely no clue what they are or what they do. 

FPS is point and click?  For a simpleton like you, perhaps.

Originally posted by lkavadas

Originally posted by rikilii 

I disagree.  I prefer RT, but WoW-Style combat still requires quite a bit of skill, at least in PVP.  You need to know when and where to move, and you have to be able to react very quickly to what your opponent is doing, using just the right attack or response for the situation.

 

Yeah, none of the above requires any skill.  Let's breakdown stereotypical RPG combat systems.  You have a few specials.  Maybe a few consummables to burn.

When an engagement starts usually the first phase is state application (on yourself or your target).  Because of RPG mechanics you don't need to actually aim at anything.  Just click or tab.  You don't need to worry about movement at all.  Cover doesn't exist.  Teamwork consists of nothing more than ganging up on a target while other classes keep their DPS/Tanks up and going.  Wow, it's soooo difficult to sit there and watch little icons flash and appear under a HAM bar.  Lame.  ZOMG, the guy just "Crippling Slashed" me!  I need to stop the bleed and clear the snare!  Whoo, real skill there.  And since 99.9% of all MMOs use some lame ass class system it's not like you really have any choice in your capabilities and are pretty much forced to play the game the way the devs want you to.  You can't be even remotely creative.

RPG combat, by and large, is a system catering to truly skill-less gamers who can't operate a mouse or a keyboard.  Who can't coordinate complex, or even simple infantry/armor maneuvers over Vent/TS.  Or those who can't and don't understand the differences between cover and concealment. 

Now, yes, I am being overly harsh on RPG combat systems here and no, I'm not some rabid FPSer either (though I do enjoy the good ones).  But I just find literally all RPG combat to be boring as hell, stupidly simplistic in every way, and not require even a drop of thought or actual skill.

You have to be kidding me... Really? Honestly?

FPS requires one type of "skill" and only one type of skill... Twitch skill, which isn't really a skill so much as it is reflexes. Sorry, explaining an RPG combat system in a derogitory and overly simplistic manner doesn't make you right. RPG combat is designed to encourage thought and tactics in the way you fight, even if some of the systems out necessarily don't,  not just bunny hopping around pressing MB1 and hoping the randomness of your spray hits your target.

I love FPS, and I love RPG combat, but they belong in their seperate games. FPS are great for FPS games, but RPG combat is the best for MMORPGs.

I prefer real-tme personally. I think dice rolls really ruin PvP. Due to dice rolls, a Level 10 will miss a Level 60 player. Compare this to an MMOFPSRPG where the lowbie can dodge and the high level misses. Lowbies have a chance in MMORPGFPS games

So at the very least we need some dodging happening

Also, in RPG combat, pvpers get spiked near instantly because all people have to do is hit TAB key to target the victim then spike. This is why in City of Heroes, etc they usually try to get rid of "Call on Target" because it makes it too easy to spike victims.

People die in MMORPG way faster then in FPS, ironically.

Tryout Savage 2 if you guys get a chance. You have Classes etc just like an MMORPG. However, they have aim/dodge (real time) so you see Class imbalances being overcome due to player skill.

Benefits of player skill integration:

* Get rid of Botters. Cheaters can no longer program a bot to hit TAB key to engage enemy mobs.

* Class imbalances are overcome much better. In FPS, like TF2 and BF2142 / Savage, we have Classes. Yet your player skill can help give you a fighting chance

* Levels and Equipment do not immediately determine victory like they honestly help weigh in too much in mmorpgs

* 'Spiking' is much less of an issue because players cant hit TAB key to all call target on a victim. Think about- if an entire guild all calls the target on 1 guy that victim is just gonna die INSTANTLY.

* Helps alleviate 'zergs'

* Opens up some interesting features like friendly fire. This in turn helps stop zerging, cause casting an AOE will burn up nearby comrades and enemies. So undisciplined forces will get torn up

This is why I look forward to real time combat games like Spellborn, Fallen Earth, Jumpgate Evolution, DFO, Earthrise, etc. I'm just burned out on auto attack MMORPGs no offense to the players that like that style of play. I realize it might make it easier for you to spam general chat channels since yer character is on autoattack. Instead, FPS gamers use Vent/TS

Eventually I believe auto-attack rpgs will be phased out at somepoint in an attempt to appeal to broader audiences

Originally posted by paulscott

target based if you implement the right stuff IE guildwars is a good base to build on.  Most other things are pretty much kinda meh.

Unfortunately Guild wars was a huge offender to 'spiking'. If you checkout the pro GvG films you'd see a lot of spiking going on whereas the group lead calls the target, everyone TABs to the target, then all spike the victim with impunity

Good news the GvG battles were only like 12 vs 12 and the devs put in some counters

But imagine if GW was a real MMO whereas you could have 100 vs 100. The spiking issue would be horrid

What is insidious about 'spiking' only a dedicated pvper will complain about it. This is not an issue in PvE due to the encounters being so static and limited

For PvE, good responsive combat is much less required.

Originally posted by Abrahmm 

You have to be kidding me... Really? Honestly?

FPS requires one type of "skill" and only one type of skill... Twitch skill, which isn't really a skill so much as it is reflexes. Sorry, explaining an RPG combat system in a derogitory and overly simplistic manner doesn't make you right. RPG combat is designed to encourage thought and tactics in the way you fight, even if some of the systems out necessarily don't,  not just bunny hopping around pressing MB1 and hoping the randomness of your spray hits your target.

I love FPS, and I love RPG combat, but they belong in their seperate games. FPS are great for FPS games, but RPG combat is the best for MMORPGs.

Once you said "bunny hopping" I couldn't take you seriously anymore.  What do you play, Quake or UT2k4?  This isn't 1998.  FPSs, good ones at least, don't let you do that.  Try Armed Assault, or Ghost Recon, or America's Army.

Yeah, FPS does require twitch skill.  RPG combat requires what...?  That you memorize a few 64x64px icons so you can easily identify them?  RPG combat is nothing but a glorified rock, paper, scissors match, that almost always boils down to nothing but a bunch of "gotchya" builds that enhanced by uber equipment (hence why time = skill in most MMOs).

The difference between an FPS and RPG?  I'll explain it to you.

In an RPG you push a button and your character executes "suppressive fire."

In an FPS you just lay down suppressive fire.  What's takes more skill, knowing how to push a single button or knowing how to carefully walk automatic fire, manage recoil, manage ammunition, keep the fire steady and relentless, et cetera.  There's more thought to RPG combat systems?  I disgaree.

There's just so much more thought and skill that goes into good FPS combat.  Not only do you have to manually execute all of those fancy RPG specials using your actual skill, but the parameters of a tactic are completely based on the decisions made by the players and not the mechanics or formulas of the skill.  Also, due to the speedy pace of FPSes these decisions need to be made light years quicker than one would have to make in an RPG environment.

I guess it just boils down to preference.  I'd rather rely on my own personal skill to do something rather than just push a button and have a game simulate it for me.  I must be crazy

The problem I have with real time is that you're always suspect to things like lag and latency over the net.

On a LAN, latency often isnt' that much of  a problem, and lag is a function of the server.  High speed server, with lots of CPU cycles gives you a much better gaming experience with real time.

Over the 'net, you've got more "moving parts" if you will to cause frustration between squeezing the trigger or swinging the sword and getting the result.

Which is why I prefer target based combat for MMOs.