Originally posted by Evasia

Originally posted by Briansho

Real hardcore PvPers get in there, kill the guy, loot his stuff, and move on. You never really hear from them because they are in the game playing.

Real hardcore carebears impulse purchase a game thats main emphasis is PvP. They know this but think they won't have to interact with another player, get killed, don't want to learn the game mechanics that revolve around the PvP and spend the next 6-8 months on that games forums calling people who are regular player gankers and griefers. They know the game was developed towards PvP and start whining the game is imbalanced and needs to have more emphasis on PvE crap like repeat quests and non-social gameplay. They then proceed to gather a group of other whiners and pound the developers with demands and guilt trips until the game is changed to a more PvE playstyle. This is exactly what happened with Ultima Online. The whiners always get their way.

 

Not only UO there a plague spreading over the net infected many mmo's:P

Now they also arrive by thousends on darkfall forums making topics asking to make it more save make it more easy, and ultimate idiocy topic is remove full loot:(

But we have to live with this plague if we like it or not, only hope is devs dont bow to there demands.

Devs darkfall already bow a little by intruducing local banks, make capital citys save heavens and alignment system:(

I hope it ends here or i wont play darkfall.

I know, the developers will fear low subscription numbers and make changes to try to make everyone happy. In my opinion if you design a game thats mainly PvP, keep it mainly PvP. Design the game the way you want it, not the way some guy that likes to do fedex quests 99% of time demands on your forums.

Originally posted by Ponico

YOU ARE NOT A LEAGUE FPS PLAYER, DO NOT KID YOURSELF.

If you can send me a shoutcast or a DEMO of you playing in a league match with one of the top teams such as D|S, CK and such then I’ll be the first to say sorry. Until then, you’re a carebare on a pub server.

I have never seen you played on CAL-Invite leagues, CPL or any other competitions.

You’re a pubber like many around, you might be above the adverage but trust me, the #1 league players would wipe the floor with you at CS any day.

 

As for being hardcore or not… Well seriously, hardcore means you basically do not have a life outside video games, do you really want that?
 

Welcome to the Net, you can pretend to be anything you want the best of the best, while most who claim to be top of the bill are prolly nobody's who only lose, but then again maybe not, welcome to the INTERNET:p

I 90% agree with the original poster.  BUT, and man this is a big sexy but, the definitions he is stating are from the 90s.  That was what a carebear, casual, and hardcore gamer was back in the 90s.

today, the terms have transformed into something different.  People have placed casual and carebear together.  Hardcore rarely associates with the goals of the player.  It associates more with ridiculous amount of gametime and seriousness of the player towards the game.  Players who get angry at defeat in the game, schedule raids and have specific requirements for entering the reaid etc. 

carebears have evolved form being people who disliked PvP to people who want to change gameplay mechanics to make things easy for everyone. 

Hardcore PvPers used to be people who looked for challenging kills and objectives.  Now they are whiners who want rule sets that allow them to grief, they want solo 1 vs 1 play where their class has the higher chance to win.

But wait, there's more.  There a new breed of "hardcore" gamers popping up now.  these are the "remember the good old days?" old timers.  They embrace rulesets that developers would stay far far away from.  A good example of these guys are the Ultima Online lovers who swear the good ol' PvP was the only real PvP, yet they fail to realize that this type of PvP only appeals to a tiny percentage of gamers. Basically these guys think that anyone who likes the modern MMO game is a carebear and anyone who liked the old "rough it" days was hardcore.  They prefer camping one spot to grind the same mobs for 2 hours.  They prefer a humungous open seamless world devoid of life and detail with no maps.  They prefer a game with an econmic system so complicated that it would take a full team of economy majors just to put the formula together.  Anyone who thinks otherwise is a carebear.

Originally posted by Urrelles

I 90% agree with the original poster.  BUT, and man this is a big sexy but, the definitions he is stating are from the 90s.  That was what a carebear, casual, and hardcore gamer was back in the 90s.

today, the terms have transformed into something different.  People have placed casual and carebear together.  Hardcore rarely associates with the goals of the player.  It associates more with ridiculous amount of gametime and seriousness of the player towards the game.  Players who get angry at defeat in the game, schedule raids and have specific requirements for entering the reaid etc. 

carebears have evolved form being people who disliked PvP to people who want to change gameplay mechanics to make things easy for everyone. 

Hardcore PvPers used to be people who looked for challenging kills and objectives.  Now they are whiners who want rule sets that allow them to grief, they want solo 1 vs 1 play where their class has the higher chance to win.

But wait, there's more.  There a new breed of "hardcore" gamers popping up now.  these are the "remember the good old days?" old timers.  They embrace rulesets that developers would stay far far away from.  A good example of these guys are the Ultima Online lovers who swear the good ol' PvP was the only real PvP, yet they fail to realize that this type of PvP only appeals to a tiny percentage of gamers. Basically these guys think that anyone who likes the modern MMO game is a carebear and anyone who liked the old "rough it" days was hardcore.  They prefer camping one spot to grind the same mobs for 2 hours.  They prefer a humungous open seamless world devoid of life and detail with no maps.  They prefer a game with an econmic system so complicated that it would take a full team of economy majors just to put the formula together.  Anyone who thinks otherwise is a carebear.

That about covers everything.

Originally posted by tfox2k1

Originally posted by shukes33

I couldn't agree with the OP more! Hardcore is not something that describes one style but rather an aproach. Scenario; how would you label this?

Oakwynd the Ranger has set out on his epic quest in the early days of the game everquest. His quest is to produce the fabled Trueshot bow. to do this it requires he raises his fletching skill up to master and then of on a quest to gather rare drops from various mobs all over the world of norrath. after a few weeks of hard work he finally complets his quest and produces a gleaming Trueshot bow.

Oakwind goes on a raid ( because hes hardcore! ) and loots a Trueshot bow from a named.

Oakkiller kills a newbie who is 10 levels below him and loots a Trueshot bow.

Myself i belong to the top scenario. But how would you label each type?

 

Scenario 1:  Someone who is unemployed with no life outside their virtual world.   Sorry I can't compete with this person, since I work and have a family.  Respect level for this person low  to medium although nice to know them in game since they likely are a good resource.   They should spend more time looking for a job.

 

Scenario 2:  I always considered raiders (been one many times) to be the MMO welfare system.   They get good gear, not by skill, but by being a team player and being given their items.   Respect, is lower than the person in team 1.   This is why MMOs are failing.    Nothing revolutionary.    Raiding is fun for a bit, but does get old.      Not much of a test of skill, typically spend 2-6 hours pressing the same couple of buttons over and over again. 

 

Scenario 3:  Well if the person 10 levels lower is stupid enough to pvp with such nice gear, they deserve to lose it.   Killing someone in a 1 to 1 battle requires the most skill of all these scenarios.   Although in MMO's today the people from scenario 1 and 2 typically win in 3 since they have the time to aquire the best loot and higher levels.    PVPing in an MMO is not skill based, rather based upon time spent advancing.    So really no respect for these guys.   Hence the reason real skill based gamers laugh at MMOers.

 

 

 

 

 

Sorry friend but who are you to judge anyone like that? i only read the first part and from that deemed the rest not worth reading.

Myself i am 35 years old. i have a 12 year old son. i work s a maintenance manager at  company in telford where i also manage the warehouse, admittedly it's not a top line job but it's also a decent living. I put in 9 hours a day at work. i play games casually. maybe around 2 - 3 hours a day 2 - 3 times a week maybe more over the weekend. I would class myself as the first scenario. I was also a member of a very high raiding guild in eq but no longer have the time.

Respect for players? equal, i am an adult and as such have respect for all types of gamers, a little more for those who play as they choose and not as a label!

I've been playing games for over 20 years. All genres across all platforms.

To me a hardcore gamer is someone  who takes the game more seriously than most. He will look up as much information about his game as possible, read all the faqs, browse the forums for strategy / template ideas and is generally involved with a group off like minded people all striving to make the most of their time in game. On the opposite end of this spectrum would be the casual gamer. Plays an hour or so at most each day and just logs on to enjoy a brief respite from reality. He doesn't have time to research every aspect of the game and his toon's capabilities, he doesn't strive to be among the better players on the server, in short he just plays to have a bit of fun.

A carebear to me is a more casual gamer who doesn't realise the lengths that a hardcore gamer goes to in order to progress within the game. He complains about overpowered and imbalanced templates / classes without bothering to adjust his own or develop strategies to counter it. He whinges about drop rates instead of just knuckling down and farming. He bitches that he got killed in pvp because he hasnt spent as much time mastering his game or farming for items. Unfortunately he's so vocal and whiney that developers hear his cries and because the carebears will allways have strength in numbers, games are being tailored / patched to their wishes.

I respect people who dont want to pvp and most games will cater to their wishes by letting them avoid it. What really fuckin pisses me off are those who dont think pvp should be in any games at all. And lets face it, if carebears had their way there'd be no pvp.

Theres no achievment in killing AI mobs.

I agree with you there mate. I think it's the carebears that are the problem. I love PVP but also love to PVE, i prefer games that are large, so if i feel like pve i can go find a place that i can, but always have that added buzz of having to watch your back.

Hardcore to me is a player that goes deep into thier character and as the previous poster said, make thier toon the best it can be. They do it in different ways, but all seem to live thier character.

Casual to me means a player that just pops on and doesnt feel the need to progress all the time, but simply enjoys the game as they choose.

In all honesty, the real hardcore players are the ones who write out full walkthroughs of their game and place them on gamefaqs.  The hardcore players are the ones who make your WoW boss mods that tell you the exact timing a boss is going to perform an attack etc.  They were the ones who first figured out how to complete the newest DAOC Trials of Atlantis boss with their guild of 50 people.  (Anyone who did the trials konws that the bosses were hard as all hell to figure out and there were no strategy guides for them.)  The extreme hardcore gamers are the ones who post YouTube videos of how to beat Super RType on hard mode without firing a single shot.  These are the guys who will take an obscure description of a spell in an MMO and figure out the exact percentages and stat numbers the spell effects through trial and error.

Basically the hardcore gamers are nowhere near these forums because they are too busy writing strat guides, mods,  and doing the impossible in their games for the rest of us to enjoy and take advantage of.

Originally posted by Urrelles

In all honesty, the real hardcore players are the ones who write out full walkthroughs of their game and place them on gamefaqs.  The hardcore players are the ones who make your WoW boss mods that tell you the exact timing a boss is going to perform an attack etc.  They were the ones who first figured out how to complete the newest DAOC Trials of Atlantis boss with their guild of 50 people.  (Anyone who did the trials konws that the bosses were hard as all hell to figure out and there were no strategy guides for them.)  The extreme hardcore gamers are the ones who post YouTube videos of how to beat Super RType on hard mode without firing a single shot.  These are the guys who will take an obscure description of a spell in an MMO and figure out the exact percentages and stat numbers the spell effects through trial and error.

Basically the hardcore gamers are nowhere near these forums because they are too busy writing strat guides, mods,  and doing the impossible in their games for the rest of us to enjoy and take advantage of.

They would fall under Elite Gamers in my heirarchy, a little more hardcore than most hardcore gamers. :)

Whats funny is both terms are merely an extension of the adolescent boy need to feel dominant in a fashion. Some take up sports, those who dont, end up beating their chest here instead.

Its a sad day, the nerds have turned into the same jerks that picked on em.

It's a simple fact of life. Humans are competitive by nature no matter what they do. Sport, business,  chess, knitting, frisbee, computer games, war. Think of a single activity that doesn't have some form of competition associated to it. Dog shows anyone?

I'd rather be the caveman who came back from the hunt with a carcass over his shoulder and if that takes more practise with the spear, then so be it. And I'd still rag on carebear who thinks the spears are too heavy and the animals too fast.

I recently cane across the term “carebear” and looked at the context to find its definition. From what I saw I would define a carebear as someone who refuses to PvP unless the odds are greatly in their favor. Using this definition I hate carebears because I see in them weak spineless individuals. It frustrates me to no end when a guy is camping a large group of lower levels and I know we could take him if we just banded together! But they never do! They’d prefer to get beaten by the strong and sulk away then fight back! It’s carebear mentality that allows tyrants to rule!

I try to make a point of teaching people to stand up for them selves. Some times I play the role of ganker, only to yell at them to team up and take me out. It doesn’t work most of the time, usually they try to get away or log their mains. But once and a great while they do team up and prove to be a great challenge and take me out! I love the people who give me those moments.
 

I wouldn't normally associate carebears with pvp.

They are too busy admiring the beautiful scenery, rp'ing with friends and complaining on forums that recent balances to pvp means it takes them a little longer to kill their favourite mob. On the rare occasions that they do attempt to pvp they usually get their ass handed to them by someone who does it all day everyday then they'll run off complaining of overpowered classes and pvp items.

Originally posted by Revenant007

It's a simple fact of life. Humans are competitive by nature no matter what they do. Sport, business,  chess, knitting, frisbee, computer games, war. Think of a single activity that doesn't have some form of competition associated to it. Dog shows anyone?

I'd rather be the caveman who came back from the hunt with a carcass over his shoulder and if that takes more practise with the spear, then so be it. And I'd still rag on carebear who thinks the spears are too heavy and the animals too fast.

yeah too bad playign MMOs takes very little skill. And trust me, practicing with a weapon and being in good enough shape to hunt your own food is a far cry from the two fat guys, one of which needs SOMEONE too look down or or he'll continue to feel like hes at the bottom of the totem pole.

Although I will say its more like Guitar Hero, Youve got the guys that think theyre the greatest ever after mastering the video game. Then youve got the guys who do the real thing, who have bloodied their fingers, and sacrificed many a night to learn how to do the real thing.

Theres a difference.

Going to coin some new terms here first.

Carebear = Pwny (for the show "My Little Pony" as well as what you do to them, own them)

 PK = Punchkin (Combination of the Grief of  watching a Munchkin get punched.)

So, regardless of if your a Pwny or Punchkin, some people will approach the roleplay experience differently. Some will be casual, some will be hardcore regardless of being a pwny or punchkin.

Well lets see, I just play the game however the f*ck i do so please. What does that make me? A carebare one day, a Pvper the next, and a hardcore gamer by night? I honestly think the prime audience in MMO's are all 3 at once. As it would get annoying for most people to be just 1 all the time. Theres usually a blend between PVPing, RPing, Hunting..   Is that gay, because if you turned those all into a bear, i am sure it would be rainbow colored.

pfft

A hardcore player is one who will do everything in a game, find every secret, play often and seriously. A speedrunner is a good example of a hardcore player.

A carebear is a casual player. He seldom play games and tend to shy away from the hardcore crowd. Ex: a father who buys a WII for his son and sometimes play the soccergame with him.

In mmo-terms its used to by pvp idiots to insult those that don't. The term is used wrong by them though. You ain't hardcore just cause you rule the pvp crowd. You are just a pvp'er.

This thread is turning into a ,edium for PVP'ers to think of themselves above all others.....is that what elitist means?

Originally posted by ZoMBiEXxX

 

WoW for example is being made to tailor to carebears and Blizzard is screwing over all of their hardcore players.. turning everyone who plays it casually and at a less than par dedication into carebears.

WoW  is the best well-rounded MMORPG on the market today. First thing... 90% of everything works perfectly. Secondly, the game pushes each player to the end-game. Also, WoW has a very credible Storyline that many 'end-gamers' don't even know. It is tailored to the 'Noob Gamer' right out of the box, which is why a seven year old can pick it up and grow with it. The graphics are pleasing to the eye, and with today's high-end computers, playing WoW is almost lag-free.

Blizzard managed to capture a very rude and disfunctional playerbase over the years, and you know what, they want people like me to come back; not realizing that it's not the game that sucks, it's the players.

Thanks for your insight on my OP. I can take a good punch, and expect lots of low-blows.

Very good post.

Hardcore is a mindset. Hardcore is much more about thinking then about action. Hardcore is about patience, about reaching certain goals. No matter if you play 80 hours a week or 2 hours. Hardcore is not about the best gear to PvP or Raid or PvE. Hardcore is about walking the game machanics on a high level of concentration. Hardcore is often about adding personal rules ontop of the game rules. Like playing a class on its max BUT always IC. If the IC fails the hardcore attempt failed. Hardcore is sometimes to choose the long and hard road on purpose, to leave the mainstream mechanics and reach the top with a private ruleset. Hardcore is very often true roleplaying. Like never killing a fairy, even if the fairies drop the best items in game.