It just seems odd to me that Cryptic would back this game when they already have CoX.  It almost seems like them marrying two twins.  I don't get it, is this game supposed to replace CoX?  Is CoX switching development teams, or what is going on?  Does anyone know?

Originally posted by Fa+e

Is CoX switching development teams?

Cryptic sold CoX to NCsoft almost a year ago.......

Ah ok, I am new to the CoX world, so I was wondering.  Thank you.

Also a note, they're not actually doing the designing on the game, although the Lead designer is, Cryptic is actually funding/ or sponsoring it.  I can't remember what word they use but it's basicly what NCSoft was to Cryptic, that's what role Cryptic is taking on Champions..

Actually Cryptic is taking on both roles. Developing and Publishing. This game was originally going to be Marvel Online, developed by Cryptic and pulished by Microsoft/Marvel. When microsoft and marvel pulled the plug Cryptic slapped the Champions IP on it to keep from losing all the time they put into it.

yea im not sure why anyone would keep jumpin into the superhero theme like that. i guess they feel its their claim to fame. I'll say this, they got it down on champions when it comes to character creation. The yshould specialize in selling customization tools cause some of these other dev companies aint got a clue one.

But why design a game similar to CoX? Why not offer something different than any other current MMOG offering, like say a western MMOG, that would attract players to the game exclusively? SOE is also making a superhero MMOG so the market will be saturated with superhero MMOGs just like the market is saturated with WoW fantasy clones. I don't understand these developers.

Cryptic keeps jumping into superhero games b/c Jack 'Statesman' Emmert pushes them into it.  He's the head honcho at Cryptic and was the lead designer of CoH when it released.  At the game went public, he started pushing it in directions the players didn't like.  It became him saying 'This is what we're going to do because it's MY game' and the players responding with 'We pay for it, it's OUR game.  If you do that, we'll all leave.'

It boiled over to the point that Jack left and put Matt 'Positron' Miller in charge.  Noone was sure exactly what was going on, until not long after Cryptic and Marvel settled their lawsuit(s), NC Soft announced that it had bought out Cryptic from CoX.  Jack Emmert was the only Cryptic designer NOT retained by NC Soft.  Surprise, surprise, Cryptic (which was basically only Emmert) teamed with Marvel to make Marvel Online.  That fell apart and Jack brought Champions in as the licensor.

Basically, he's a comic book guy who keeps jumping ship trying to find a way to make 'HIS' game, regardless of the fact that noone wants to play HIS game.  He created CoH, and the players liked it better without him.  He tried to latch onto the very project that tried to put his game under.  When that fell apart he brought on Champions and touted them as his bestest, most originalest choice in the whole wide world.

My advice:  Jack Emmert is to his games as Funcom is to their games.  Take from that what you will.

i agree CoX is better off without this jack guy

Actually microsoft was paying them to make Marvel Online. Microsoft and marvel bailed on them they changed it to Champions to try and recoup what they had invested.

Originally posted by Wikkedbowtie

Actually microsoft was paying them to make Marvel Online. Microsoft and marvel bailed on them they changed it to Champions to try and recoup what they had invested.

Without Marvel, this new game by Jacky is NOTHING.

Yes, they have Champions, but how many ppl nowadays are gonna know what that is.

I asked around Coh in-game and most ppl say they are sticking with Coh

Originally posted by sactoking

Cryptic keeps jumping into superhero games b/c Jack 'Statesman' Emmert pushes them into it.  He's the head honcho at Cryptic and was the lead designer of CoH when it released.  At the game went public, he started pushing it in directions the players didn't like.  It became him saying 'This is what we're going to do because it's MY game' and the players responding with 'We pay for it, it's OUR game.  If you do that, we'll all leave.'

It boiled over to the point that Jack left and put Matt 'Positron' Miller in charge.  Noone was sure exactly what was going on, until not long after Cryptic and Marvel settled their lawsuit(s), NC Soft announced that it had bought out Cryptic from CoX.  Jack Emmert was the only Cryptic designer NOT retained by NC Soft.  Surprise, surprise, Cryptic (which was basically only Emmert) teamed with Marvel to make Marvel Online.  That fell apart and Jack brought Champions in as the licensor.

Basically, he's a comic book guy who keeps jumping ship trying to find a way to make 'HIS' game, regardless of the fact that noone wants to play HIS game.  He created CoH, and the players liked it better without him.  He tried to latch onto the very project that tried to put his game under.  When that fell apart he brought on Champions and touted them as his bestest, most originalest choice in the whole wide world.

Let's add some facts to this, shall we?

Jack Emmert was one of the original founding members of Cryptic Studios and is the Chief Creative Director. He took over as Lead Developer from Rick Dakan (who was relegated to contract employee status) and helped CoH to launch. He's not the head honcho - Michael Lewis is CEO / President (and an ex-SOE guy is now CEO, I think). Emmert has been working on CoH since day 1 (pretty much up until Cryptic sold it).

Emmert took CoH in some directions that weren't popular (and some that were, but people forget that) and it while he was 'in control' that CoH had its highest player numbers. The problem with saying that players didn't want certain things is is that no MMO has all players agreeing on anything. While the Global Defence Nerf and Enhancement Diversificaiton weren't met well by some players, plenty more kept playing the game and saw the necessity in the changes so that all character archetypes / powerset combos were useful.

NCsoft didn't take Emmert off the game - when CoV was launched and didn't make its targets (it only brought in 60k new players) NCsoft cut CoH/V's operating budget. The CoH/V team was reduced to 15 people, with Matt Miller taking over the lead dev role as Emmert sought out other opportunities. One of these was Marvel Universe Online, which Microsoft Games approached them to develop.

Cryptic was a studio of at least 90 people (probably more) of which 60 were working on CoH/V and the others working on at least one other MMO that has never been formally announced. When the CoH/V title got its cutbacks, the extra people went into working on the Cryptic Toolset (that they use to make their MMO titles) and then, when MUO was picked up, more people were hired - if memory serves, Cryptic ended up with over 120 people working for them.

MUO falls over, probably due to interference from Marvel, and one month later a deal is made with Hero Games to buy the Champions IP. Given that Cryptic had spent a lot of time getting MUO developed, it makes sense to put that work into another superhero IP and use what they can of that work.

Also, when NCsoft bought CoH/V, all of the CoH/V devs plus one extra Cryptic programmer came across. Since then they've had a few more additions to the CoH/V team, but it hardly left Cryptic as being 'just Jack'. Also, you've conveniently left off Star Trek Online as another title Cryptic is working on with another, separate dev team.

The problem in saying that no-one wants to play Jack's game is that CoH WAS Jack's game. He admits he made mistakes, but a lot of players liked the game, even after it was rebalanced so that non-Tankers and non-AoE damage masters were wanted on teams. If no-one wanted to play Jack's game, CoH would have died at launch.

Cripes, I could go on, but I've written enough already. I try to keep a balanced view of what Emmert did and didn't do to CoH/V, but I think it is important to keep some facts in mind rather than unsubstantiated opinion that gets constantly repeated.

To answer the more general question: why is Cryptic making this?

Because Cryptic will own it lock, stock and barrel (physical distribution being done by 2K aside). They are self-publishing and managing everything themselves. ChampO is another shot at the superhero MMO, sure, but it is also a shot at the underserved Xbox 360 MMO market and one that is leveraging off Cryptic's previous MMO strengths.

Don't know if it will be successful or be what people want to play, but the key reason Cryptic is doing this is that it gives them full control over their MMO, which is something they didn't have with CoH/V.

COH is getting a bit old, the graphics and AI of the mobs is really outdated anyways. And the Marvel game would have sold good too, now they have already spent much of the work so why not releasing it?

Besides some companys make only fantasy games... Why not Superhero ones?

But Champions will be in for a stiff competition since SOE have hired in Jim Lee as the graphics boss of DC universe and we do know the DC world before... If they still would have made the Marvel game if would think it would have been the winner but now I think DCU will get most subs.

Originally posted by RedwoodSap

But why design a game similar to CoX? Why not offer something different than any other current MMOG offering, like say a western MMOG, that would attract players to the game exclusively? SOE is also making a superhero MMOG so the market will be saturated with superhero MMOGs just like the market is saturated with WoW fantasy clones. I don't understand these developers.

 

perhaps the devs like super heroes and want to make a super hero game? Plus the latest superhero blockbusters and upcoming movies are more then likely increasing the demand for a superhero game in the mainstream. Meanwhile WoW continues to increase the awareness and popularity of MMO's in the mainstream. These superhero MMO's can cater to that demand in this genre, and provide a new game to boot. While CoX can cater to this demand, but is not new and is not very well known either. And sense when is having two games of the same theme saturing the market? As far as I am concerned that is just healthy competition.

Originally posted by RedwoodSap

But why design a game similar to CoX? Why not offer something different than any other current MMOG offering, like say a western MMOG, that would attract players to the game exclusively? SOE is also making a superhero MMOG so the market will be saturated with superhero MMOGs just like the market is saturated with WoW fantasy clones. I don't understand these developers.

 

Trust me, The MMO industry isn't going to be seeing many more super-hero MMOs ever in history other then CoX, this game, and the DC game; your only chances of seeing more of these would be if one actually gains an average of half a mil subs monthly over a yearly scale. I highly don't see that happening. I could write a whole report on what could argue that statement that the MMO industry will be saturated with super-hero themes, but I think you realize.

I understand what you are saying, though. Why is Cryptic sticking to it's roots? The answer is, what I would believe, to be the easiest; because they already have the experience and they realize that CoX was a moderate success and a good formula to roll with. Why start the process from the beginning?

At least these upcoming releases in '09 (as a whole, not just CO) are starting to finally realize "STAY AWAY FROM THE FANTASY GENRE!!". 1.) MMO players are downright sick of Fantasy 2.) Trying to make a copy of WoW will only result in a lesser WoW 3.) Introducing new genres to the industry results in more player curiousity (or better worded; more potential players), more public and professional media, and better chances of success. A western MMO sounds like a great idea. I myself would also like to see more modern-time MMOs, and (although it is starting to become the next "Fantasy Genre" illness) sci-fi MMOs.

What I really wish they'd start realizing now is that to compete anymore in the MMO industry you need to actually have a finished (or at least extremely polished, as "an MMO is never finished") MMO. And worst of all don't f'in blatantly lie about your game. Ugh. AoC still gives me shivers of dread and woe for the impending fall for the rest of the future MMOs.

TL;DR Version: Just be glad it ain't fantasy.

EDIT: I'd like to reword the sentence I gave red font to "A gamble at great success (half a mil avg.) or failure, and in rare cases surviving with a substantial number".

Originally posted by UnSub

Originally posted by sactoking

Cryptic keeps jumping into superhero games b/c Jack 'Statesman' Emmert pushes them into it.  He's the head honcho at Cryptic and was the lead designer of CoH when it released.  At the game went public, he started pushing it in directions the players didn't like.  It became him saying 'This is what we're going to do because it's MY game' and the players responding with 'We pay for it, it's OUR game.  If you do that, we'll all leave.'

It boiled over to the point that Jack left and put Matt 'Positron' Miller in charge.  Noone was sure exactly what was going on, until not long after Cryptic and Marvel settled their lawsuit(s), NC Soft announced that it had bought out Cryptic from CoX.  Jack Emmert was the only Cryptic designer NOT retained by NC Soft.  Surprise, surprise, Cryptic (which was basically only Emmert) teamed with Marvel to make Marvel Online.  That fell apart and Jack brought Champions in as the licensor.

Basically, he's a comic book guy who keeps jumping ship trying to find a way to make 'HIS' game, regardless of the fact that noone wants to play HIS game.  He created CoH, and the players liked it better without him.  He tried to latch onto the very project that tried to put his game under.  When that fell apart he brought on Champions and touted them as his bestest, most originalest choice in the whole wide world.

 

Let's add some facts to this, shall we?

Jack Emmert was one of the original founding members of Cryptic Studios and is the Chief Creative Director. He took over as Lead Developer from Rick Dakan (who was relegated to contract employee status) and helped CoH to launch. He's not the head honcho - Michael Lewis is CEO / President (and an ex-SOE guy is now CEO, I think). Emmert has been working on CoH since day 1 (pretty much up until Cryptic sold it).

Emmert took CoH in some directions that weren't popular (and some that were, but people forget that) and it while he was 'in control' that CoH had its highest player numbers. The problem with saying that players didn't want certain things is is that no MMO has all players agreeing on anything. While the Global Defence Nerf and Enhancement Diversificaiton weren't met well by some players, plenty more kept playing the game and saw the necessity in the changes so that all character archetypes / powerset combos were useful.

NCsoft didn't take Emmert off the game - when CoV was launched and didn't make its targets (it only brought in 60k new players) NCsoft cut CoH/V's operating budget. The CoH/V team was reduced to 15 people, with Matt Miller taking over the lead dev role as Emmert sought out other opportunities. One of these was Marvel Universe Online, which Microsoft Games approached them to develop.

Cryptic was a studio of at least 90 people (probably more) of which 60 were working on CoH/V and the others working on at least one other MMO that has never been formally announced. When the CoH/V title got its cutbacks, the extra people went into working on the Cryptic Toolset (that they use to make their MMO titles) and then, when MUO was picked up, more people were hired - if memory serves, Cryptic ended up with over 120 people working for them.

MUO falls over, probably due to interference from Marvel, and one month later a deal is made with Hero Games to buy the Champions IP. Given that Cryptic had spent a lot of time getting MUO developed, it makes sense to put that work into another superhero IP and use what they can of that work.

Also, when NCsoft bought CoH/V, all of the CoH/V devs plus one extra Cryptic programmer came across. Since then they've had a few more additions to the CoH/V team, but it hardly left Cryptic as being 'just Jack'. Also, you've conveniently left off Star Trek Online as another title Cryptic is working on with another, separate dev team.

The problem in saying that no-one wants to play Jack's game is that CoH WAS Jack's game. He admits he made mistakes, but a lot of players liked the game, even after it was rebalanced so that non-Tankers and non-AoE damage masters were wanted on teams. If no-one wanted to play Jack's game, CoH would have died at launch.

Cripes, I could go on, but I've written enough already. I try to keep a balanced view of what Emmert did and didn't do to CoH/V, but I think it is important to keep some facts in mind rather than unsubstantiated opinion that gets constantly repeated.

Sac looks like a Jack hater.    I was going to say something like what Unsub said but not to his descriptive degree. 

Originally posted by Douhk 

Trust me, The MMO industry isn't going to be seeing many more super-hero MMOs ever in history other then CoX, this game, and the DC game; your only chances of seeing more of these would be if one actually gains an average of half a mil subs monthly over a yearly scale. I highly don't see that happening. I could write a whole report on what could argue that statement that the MMO industry will be saturated with super-hero themes, but I think you realize.

The above paragraph made me lolz.  So no developer will ever make an MMO of an aesthetic genre which doesn't have a proven predecessor with 500k subs to back it up?  That's absurd, sir.  The simple fact of the matter is that no single MMO will ever accomplish what WoW has in sub numbers.  WoW is a statistical aberration, an anomaly, an outlier in a table of data.

By your reasoning no gaming company should ever make any MMO that doesn't largely replicate WoW which is an absurd notion.

A game can still pull in 100k subs and be deemed successful.  Hell, 200k subs is an absolutely smash hit.  And then there's the fact that EVE contradicts your entire premise as it's the second largest western MMO in the world behind only WoW.

Cryptic hit the jackpot when Microsoft/Marvel walked away. They had already designed the engine and were starting to add content. This is where problems arose as Marvel refuses to have its IP look weak. Players want to be Wolverine, Gambit, and the Hulk, But in Marvels eyes players need to be underneath these icons. If players can never advance to the point were they are a match for the icons of the Marvel world they will always play second fiddle. Players in an MMO want to be the Star, especially in this genre. If they accomplish the goal of making the players feel like a real hero this game will do fine. Lets not forget as well they were forced to change game mechanics in Alpha. They orignally were designing CoH to be a helluva of lot more customizible with your powers allowing you to take power al carte to build a custom hero. Thats what I am hoping from Champion's, a unique power combinations with unique design.

Yeah, I remember some of the info for CoH from the early times. I was so very much looking forward to a fully customizable super hero game. Alas, whatever problems happened. And they had to go with the AT design of what CoH has now. Don't get me wrong, I still love CoH.. but I can't say I wasn't deeply disappointed they weren't able to go with the original concepts. But, I'm not gonna get my hopes up with this game. I'm just gonna wait and see. But, I am 99% sure I'm going to pre-order a copy of this game!