Well let's put it this way.  Every FFA PVP game has died on the vine so to speak, mainly because the creators can only put up with the destroyers for so long and just move on.

Pretty much what you can expect from this game.  FFA PVP is a classic way to say "have fun while it lasts because it won't be around long".

I see it all the time in Eve where they have a halfway effective balance between the two factions.  The pvpers want more restrictions on safe space not realizing that upsetting the balance will just doom themselves.

So you can forget the final battle, if needed resources are not available in the safe areas the creators will just ignore the game, hence the pvpers will be left with noone to fight but themselves.

So if I understand right, the crafters are forced to PvP or associate with PvPers to defend their stuff, but the PKs are not in any way forced to craft or associate with crafters, because they can loot any item they want in PvP?  Yeah, that's balanced.

Originally posted by Ciredric

 Well let's put it this way.  Every FFA PVP game has died on the vine so to speak, mainly because the creators can only put up with the destroyers for so long and just move on.

Pretty much what you can expect from this game.  FFA PVP is a classic way to say "have fun while it lasts because it won't be around long".

I see it all the time in Eve where they have a halfway effective balance between the two factions.  The pvpers want more restrictions on safe space not realizing that upsetting the balance will just doom themselves.

So you can forget the final battle, if needed resources are not available in the safe areas the creators will just ignore the game, hence the pvpers will be left with noone to fight but themselves.

This is what I meant when i said " PvPers and PvEers" should be playing different games.

FFA pvp is all on how you look at it, if the game is designed for pvp it works Ex: planetside wwiionline 10six

We need more PURE pvp games, with zero pve.

*note:  they dont have to be fps, its just the only ones i could think of with zero pve

Originally posted by MarL

Originally posted by Ciredric

 Well let's put it this way.  Every FFA PVP game has died on the vine so to speak, mainly because the creators can only put up with the destroyers for so long and just move on.

Pretty much what you can expect from this game.  FFA PVP is a classic way to say "have fun while it lasts because it won't be around long".

I see it all the time in Eve where they have a halfway effective balance between the two factions.  The pvpers want more restrictions on safe space not realizing that upsetting the balance will just doom themselves.

So you can forget the final battle, if needed resources are not available in the safe areas the creators will just ignore the game, hence the pvpers will be left with noone to fight but themselves.

 

This is what I meant when i said " PvPers and PvEers" should be playing different games.

FFA pvp is all on how you look at it, if the game is designed for pvp it works Ex: planetside wwiionline 10six

We need more PURE pvp games, with zero pve.

I wish they would do that, and then perhaps PvE focused MMO's will stay balanced for PvE instead of being destroyed for 1 on 1 PvP.

Originally posted by Ciredric

 Well let's put it this way.  Every FFA PVP game has died on the vine so to speak, mainly because the creators can only put up with the destroyers for so long and just move on.

Pretty much what you can expect from this game.  FFA PVP is a classic way to say "have fun while it lasts because it won't be around long".

I see it all the time in Eve where they have a halfway effective balance between the two factions.  The pvpers want more restrictions on safe space not realizing that upsetting the balance will just doom themselves.

So you can forget the final battle, if needed resources are not available in the safe areas the creators will just ignore the game, hence the pvpers will be left with noone to fight but themselves.

Hi Ciredric,

The problem you mention is one of the reasons we wanted to discuss this issue with gamers.  While we are in production, we want to build a solution that makes for fun PvP.  One thing to keep in mind, games such as DaoC still have a fun crowd playing RvR.  With the open-ended space and solar systems in Crusades, the typical route blockade / jumpgate style camping will not be effective because players may fly in any direction to exit an area.  Planet orbits might get camped, however, but in the case of a well defended city below - the bombardment process will take time.  Landing and deploying troops will require excellent raid-style organization to make effective.  The bottom line to any good PvP - lies in why we are doing this?  The answer is resources and control.  Even if a world is over-thrown 'Necromonger' style (I.e. 'Chronicles of Riddick') the inhabitants may go elsewhere, far far away - and find even greater resources.

I wanted to take a moment to thank you for your thoughts and suggestions.  This thread has provided some interesting feedback, and I know that our management reads these threads. Don't forget there is an open door on our community forums if anyone would like to add to the wish list, or discuss other aspects of gameplay.

Originally posted by FatalFX

Originally posted by Ciredric

 Well let's put it this way.  Every FFA PVP game has died on the vine so to speak, mainly because the creators can only put up with the destroyers for so long and just move on.

Pretty much what you can expect from this game.  FFA PVP is a classic way to say "have fun while it lasts because it won't be around long".

I see it all the time in Eve where they have a halfway effective balance between the two factions.  The pvpers want more restrictions on safe space not realizing that upsetting the balance will just doom themselves.

So you can forget the final battle, if needed resources are not available in the safe areas the creators will just ignore the game, hence the pvpers will be left with noone to fight but themselves.

 

Hi Ciredric,

The problem you mention is one of the reasons we wanted to discuss this issue with gamers.  While we are in production, we want to build a solution that makes for fun PvP.  One thing to keep in mind, games such as DaoC still have a fun crowd playing RvR.  With the open-ended space and solar systems in Crusades, the typical route blockade / jumpgate style camping will not be effective because players may fly in any direction to exit an area.  Planet orbits might get camped, however, but in the case of a well defended city below - the bombardment process will take time.  Landing and deploying troops will require excellent raid-style organization to make effective.  The bottom line to any good PvP - lies in why we are doing this?  The answer is resources and control.  Even if a world is over-thrown 'Necromonger' style (I.e. 'Chronicles of Riddick') the inhabitants may go elsewhere, far far away - and find even greater resources.

I wanted to take a moment to thank you for your thoughts and suggestions.  This thread has provided some interesting feedback, and I know that our management reads these threads. Don't forget there is an open door on our community forums if anyone would like to add to the wish list, or discuss other aspects of gameplay.

I personally think a FFA PvP game such as Crusades has a brilliant chance of succeeding where previous attempts have failed. It will fantastic to play an mmo which finally takes advantage of the fact that it is being played and shared by other players unlike previous mmos such as WoW, EQ2, Vanguard etc which basicly play like a single player game and isolate the players from each other.

It looks as though Crusades could easily bring the "Massively Multiplayer" aspect back into online rpgs which is long overdue. If a player wants to be left alone while they do their own thing then the question has to be asked "Why are they logging into an online game populated by thousands of real people?". In a well designed MMO everyone will have a purpose and a role to fill. The "carebears" will want to seek a protected and safe life and to do that they should co-operate with other like-minded people to achieve this. If you want something to happen in an online game then it should not just be handed to you on plate......you should have to work for it! Otherwise it just isnt worth having. Thats why nearly every mmo around at the moment feels so meaningless. All you ever do is chase levels which doesnt mean anything. What about a purpose or a goal? What about doing something that effects the gameworld your character is "living" in?

Just look at real life for your inspiration! Are you safe and immune to danger in real life? Is there some invisible force which stops people from interacting with each other properly? As I am sat here typing this at work (naughty me) there is nothing stopping someone from coming into the office and attacking me is there. However if someone did then they would have to face the consequences of their actions. We didnt always live in a civilised society ya know......lots of people still dont! This can happen in a game world too.

So as other people have already suggested, the "carebears" would have to employ the more violently active players to fight off the more nasty minded players and keep them safe. In return the  "helpful" PvPers will be provided with money, a base, ships, armour, weapons etc. Equally the "nasty" PvPers will eventually have to face the reality that by attacking the "carebears" they have now become targets for the "helpful" PvPers and will be forced to band together and form their own "carebear" communities or forever be on the run. Of course all of these people will be able to play the game in their own particular way just as we all live real life in our own particular way.

Of course by now its pretty obvious that the terms "carebear" and "PvPer" become irrelevant. The game has now become a simulation of real life and just as in real life these terms dont really apply.

So yeah FatalFX I really hope Crusades manages to pull it off. Please dont pay any attention to people who say that FFA PvP cant work because they are only basing that judgement on other games that have tried it and failed (most of which have been level based and designed purely for PvE anyway) which is extremely narrow minded. I think LOTS of people would love to play a realistic game like Crusades and if it is done well it will easily make all the restrictive themepark mmos of the past look like something from the stone age.

I think one of the major problems with these types of issues is the anonimity of the internet, if your identity were part of you gaming profile then people wouldn't pull half of the nefarious deeds that they currently do. I do not agree with the degree of anonimity that we currently have online and this goes to the larger issue of the vile conduct people display toward each other.

 Theres a lot to be said for the phrase of treating others as you would be treated, further reducing accoutability just breeds people taking extreme unreasonable stances on issues and brings out the worst in an individual.

Originally posted by Kurir

I think one of the major problems with these types of issues is the anonimity of the internet, if your identity were part of you gaming profile then people wouldn't pull half of the nefarious deeds that they currently do. I do not agree with the degree of anonimity that we currently have online and this goes to the larger issue of the vile conduct people display toward each other.

 Theres a lot to be said for the phrase of treating others as you would be treated, further reducing accoutability just breeds people taking extreme unreasonable stances on issues and brings out the worst in an individual.

Yes this is sort of true as the majority of nasty behaviour on the internet wouldnt happen if the guilty people could easily be identified......but then what would you propose? Surely you're not suggesting that information about the players real identity be displayed in the game and over the internet? Would you like every other player to have the ability to find out who you are and harrass you at their leisure?

You have to remember though that these are just games and nothing more than that. If a player kills another player in the game then it really doesnt matter and thats what the issue is here.......its about FFA PvP not personal abuse which is a different topic altogether and also something that happens in any online game regardless of its design.

No the real solution to solve problems involved with FFA PvP is to have a well designed game that can cater for it in the first place. If players are given reasons to kill or not kill each other then it can work. Crusades could easily be that game.

For example if one annoying player decides that they want to make it their mission to constantly kill players he thinks are weaker than him then first he has to be able to pick his targets well which will be difficult in a  game that doesnt display levels floating over the players heads. Secondly he will be putting himself at risk and will ultimately end up worse off sooner or later as he gets killed and loses all his stuff. Thirdly he will become known for it and the more decent players will make it known that he isnt liked. Basicly his experience of the game would rapidly become a bad one. Sure he could just delete his character and roll up a new "Ganker" but then he would be back at square one with a weak fledgling character that wouldnt be capable of ganking anything. The only way he could effectively gank someone would be if he formed up with other gankers......but then he would no longer be a simple annoyance to other players.......he would be a pirate/brigand/thug or whatever you want to call it which is a viable option in an online game.

Ganking only happens in games where players can gain an unfair advantage simply by being more powerful and knowing who is weaker than you. In a well designed game this wouldnt happen.

FFA pvp was great back in the early days of mmos like UO mainly because people ACTUALLY RPED bad guys and would say like rob you incharacter or kill you because of some war etc etc.Now days you got nothing but a buncha ego driven kids! who do it too pester or annoy other for no apparent reason but too be jackasses.Take aoc for example i never seen so much grievin in a mmo since its release pure blood shed sure can be fun at times but not when you have lvl 50s gankin and killen people 20-30 lvls below them gets old and ruins the game play.

I left over a class balance issue people do it all the time.

Originally posted by Rammur

FFA pvp was great back in the early days of mmos like UO mainly because people ACTUALLY RPED bad guys and would say like rob you incharacter or kill you because of some war etc etc.Now days you got nothing but a buncha ego driven kids! who do it too pester or annoy other for no apparent reason but too be jackasses.Take aoc for example i never seen so much grievin in a mmo since its release pure blood shed sure can be fun at times but not when you have lvl 50s gankin and killen people 20-30 lvls below them gets old and ruins the game play.

Also to point out, back in the old UO, the MMO community was smaller. Severs were smaller n ppl tended to know each other a bit more. When it comes to FFA PvP ppl just stop carrying that top notch gear. So everybody is just wearing crap cause they don't wanna loose the 'good stuff'.

Personally I think a FFA PvP game should be based on skill more than anything. Armors n such should be easily attainable.

Now I fall into the catagory of 'Carebare' and the only reason I choose so is not cause I am afraid of PvP. It is because of the ganking attitude of the kids that play. They ruin any chance of fun PvP.

It's quite simple.

The non-pvpers will recruit pvpers in exchange for the best armors and weapons.

Those pvpers who resist will find themselves either forced to start crafting their own shit, or continually die until they quit in frustration.

"Carebears" will rule the game.

And if you think the devs will chase away hundreds of thousands of "carebears" to pacify the minority population of pvpers, either you think their stupid or you have one hell of an imagination.

"Carebears" unite!!

In terms of scale if pvers and pvpers were to confront each other in real life, you'd have the state of Rhode Island (pvpers) trying to attack the entire North American continent (pvers).

Might as well get used to being a niche now, pvp fanatics.

since when did carebears = crafters?

Originally posted by tvalentine

since when did carebears = crafters?

Ask the gankers above. Apparently they decided that.

    I think the hardcore players would crush the carebears......Most of the carebears are in games like WOW, EQ2, Lotro....The hardcore go for more of a challenging game that usually involves eitehr a tough death penalty or loss of items on death......The hardcore tend to be drawn to the brutal aspects of games while the carebears in general want it easier with little or no repurcussions.....In a game like WoW the carebears can compete with the hardcore but put them in a game like EQ (pvp server) or Eve and the hardcore will eat them alive.......

If a Developer of a MMO that can create a FFA-PVP enviroment that can cater to both PVE and PVPers without crying at both end.. then by all means make one and have some sort of safety net or system that can be implimented that can actually punish people for needless killing (griefing & senseless killing, camping spawn points..) if you can do that I think these people will try a FFA-PVP type game. But noone in any game should just have a easy button added to thier keyboard or be able to walk thru the game with no consequences. And for one PVERs arent the only ones that craft items for PVPers either. Some players do all aspects of the game, like myself .. I never had to depend on anyone to make my armor, items, or anything related to crafting that I cant do myself....

I play games to enjoy all apsects of the game whether the mechanics are good or bad, I like PVP...more than so every type of MMO has PVP to some degree. Learning about your build template or your class is easier to do when its tested against a live human opponent. SWG one of the former MMOs I played most of the Heroic Instances where not finished first by PVERs either .. they was completed by PVPers .. people that work together as a team to accomlish a goal. I ran with both type of players PVPErs and PVERs .. problem I had with PVERs is that 75 percent of the time they didn't know what they was doing and trying to be helpful for people that have completed those instances giving them heads up on Vent .. they wouldnt listen and the group wipes cause a couple of knuckle heads couldn't take directions and follow orders... cause in the end I don't care who you are PVE or PVP ..everyone wants to win the shiny....

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Originally posted by neonwire
Just look at real life for your inspiration! Are you safe and immune to danger in real life? Is there some invisible force which stops people from interacting with each other properly? As I am sat here typing this at work (naughty me) there is nothing stopping someone from coming into the office and attacking me is there. However if someone did then they would have to face the consequences of their actions. We didnt always live in a civilised society ya know......lots of people still dont! This can happen in a game world too.

---

You would still be dead though.

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Of course by now its pretty obvious that the terms "carebear" and "PvPer" become irrelevant. The game has now become a simulation of real life and just as in real life these terms dont really apply.

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The difference is - in real life - the people you call gankers would be called socipaths, and mass murders and end up dead or spending the rest of their life in prison.

In game the consequences arent the same.

So Fatalfx the question you need to answer is why would carebears want to play your game? Why would casual players want to play your game?

The FFA PvP games have tended to fail because the Gankers drive off the carebear/casual players. Unless you design your game to start small and build up (like Eve) so that you arent dependant on having X number of players to support the game, then the game fails when the numbers drop below the life support limit.

If you are looking to have WOW like numbers - never going to happen. If you are happy with Eve like numbers of players - then thats possible.

What you didnt mention is if Crusader is a single server game (Eve, Guildwars) where all the players can interact, or seperate shards/servers (WOW, AOC, Vanguard, WAR). If you have seperate servers then you face issues if there arent enough people on the server.

Originally posted by _Shadowmage

 

What you didnt mention is if Crusader is a single server game (Eve, Guildwars) where all the players can interact, or seperate shards/servers (WOW, AOC, Vanguard, WAR). If you have seperate servers then you face issues if there arent enough people on the server.

Hi Shadowmage,

Crusades will be played on a single shard server. 

What battle?  The people that don't enjoy pvp (carebears god do people know how stupid you sound saying that) won't play a game like that.

This type of pvp leads to ganking, which is what non pvpers hate.

unfortunately for gankers, no one wnats to play with them.

Blaming carebears isn't going to get anyone to make another game for you to ruin.