Originally posted by FatalFX

Originally posted by Ciredric

 Well let's put it this way.  Every FFA PVP game has died on the vine so to speak, mainly because the creators can only put up with the destroyers for so long and just move on.

Pretty much what you can expect from this game.  FFA PVP is a classic way to say "have fun while it lasts because it won't be around long".

I see it all the time in Eve where they have a halfway effective balance between the two factions.  The pvpers want more restrictions on safe space not realizing that upsetting the balance will just doom themselves.

So you can forget the final battle, if needed resources are not available in the safe areas the creators will just ignore the game, hence the pvpers will be left with noone to fight but themselves.

 

Hi Ciredric,

The problem you mention is one of the reasons we wanted to discuss this issue with gamers.  While we are in production, we want to build a solution that makes for fun PvP.  One thing to keep in mind, games such as DaoC still have a fun crowd playing RvR.  With the open-ended space and solar systems in Crusades, the typical route blockade / jumpgate style camping will not be effective because players may fly in any direction to exit an area.  Planet orbits might get camped, however, but in the case of a well defended city below - the bombardment process will take time.  Landing and deploying troops will require excellent raid-style organization to make effective.  The bottom line to any good PvP - lies in why we are doing this?  The answer is resources and control.  Even if a world is over-thrown 'Necromonger' style (I.e. 'Chronicles of Riddick') the inhabitants may go elsewhere, far far away - and find even greater resources.

I wanted to take a moment to thank you for your thoughts and suggestions.  This thread has provided some interesting feedback, and I know that our management reads these threads. Don't forget there is an open door on our community forums if anyone would like to add to the wish list, or discuss other aspects of gameplay.

I personally think a FFA PvP game such as Crusades has a brilliant chance of succeeding where previous attempts have failed. It will fantastic to play an mmo which finally takes advantage of the fact that it is being played and shared by other players unlike previous mmos such as WoW, EQ2, Vanguard etc which basicly play like a single player game and isolate the players from each other.

It looks as though Crusades could easily bring the "Massively Multiplayer" aspect back into online rpgs which is long overdue. If a player wants to be left alone while they do their own thing then the question has to be asked "Why are they logging into an online game populated by thousands of real people?". In a well designed MMO everyone will have a purpose and a role to fill. The "carebears" will want to seek a protected and safe life and to do that they should co-operate with other like-minded people to achieve this. If you want something to happen in an online game then it should not just be handed to you on plate......you should have to work for it! Otherwise it just isnt worth having. Thats why nearly every mmo around at the moment feels so meaningless. All you ever do is chase levels which doesnt mean anything. What about a purpose or a goal? What about doing something that effects the gameworld your character is "living" in?

Just look at real life for your inspiration! Are you safe and immune to danger in real life? Is there some invisible force which stops people from interacting with each other properly? As I am sat here typing this at work (naughty me) there is nothing stopping someone from coming into the office and attacking me is there. However if someone did then they would have to face the consequences of their actions. We didnt always live in a civilised society ya know......lots of people still dont! This can happen in a game world too.

So as other people have already suggested, the "carebears" would have to employ the more violently active players to fight off the more nasty minded players and keep them safe. In return the  "helpful" PvPers will be provided with money, a base, ships, armour, weapons etc. Equally the "nasty" PvPers will eventually have to face the reality that by attacking the "carebears" they have now become targets for the "helpful" PvPers and will be forced to band together and form their own "carebear" communities or forever be on the run. Of course all of these people will be able to play the game in their own particular way just as we all live real life in our own particular way.

Of course by now its pretty obvious that the terms "carebear" and "PvPer" become irrelevant. The game has now become a simulation of real life and just as in real life these terms dont really apply.

So yeah FatalFX I really hope Crusades manages to pull it off. Please dont pay any attention to people who say that FFA PvP cant work because they are only basing that judgement on other games that have tried it and failed (most of which have been level based and designed purely for PvE anyway) which is extremely narrow minded. I think LOTS of people would love to play a realistic game like Crusades and if it is done well it will easily make all the restrictive themepark mmos of the past look like something from the stone age.

I think one of the major problems with these types of issues is the anonimity of the internet, if your identity were part of you gaming profile then people wouldn't pull half of the nefarious deeds that they currently do. I do not agree with the degree of anonimity that we currently have online and this goes to the larger issue of the vile conduct people display toward each other.

 Theres a lot to be said for the phrase of treating others as you would be treated, further reducing accoutability just breeds people taking extreme unreasonable stances on issues and brings out the worst in an individual.

Originally posted by Kurir

I think one of the major problems with these types of issues is the anonimity of the internet, if your identity were part of you gaming profile then people wouldn't pull half of the nefarious deeds that they currently do. I do not agree with the degree of anonimity that we currently have online and this goes to the larger issue of the vile conduct people display toward each other.

 Theres a lot to be said for the phrase of treating others as you would be treated, further reducing accoutability just breeds people taking extreme unreasonable stances on issues and brings out the worst in an individual.

Yes this is sort of true as the majority of nasty behaviour on the internet wouldnt happen if the guilty people could easily be identified......but then what would you propose? Surely you're not suggesting that information about the players real identity be displayed in the game and over the internet? Would you like every other player to have the ability to find out who you are and harrass you at their leisure?

You have to remember though that these are just games and nothing more than that. If a player kills another player in the game then it really doesnt matter and thats what the issue is here.......its about FFA PvP not personal abuse which is a different topic altogether and also something that happens in any online game regardless of its design.

No the real solution to solve problems involved with FFA PvP is to have a well designed game that can cater for it in the first place. If players are given reasons to kill or not kill each other then it can work. Crusades could easily be that game.

For example if one annoying player decides that they want to make it their mission to constantly kill players he thinks are weaker than him then first he has to be able to pick his targets well which will be difficult in a  game that doesnt display levels floating over the players heads. Secondly he will be putting himself at risk and will ultimately end up worse off sooner or later as he gets killed and loses all his stuff. Thirdly he will become known for it and the more decent players will make it known that he isnt liked. Basicly his experience of the game would rapidly become a bad one. Sure he could just delete his character and roll up a new "Ganker" but then he would be back at square one with a weak fledgling character that wouldnt be capable of ganking anything. The only way he could effectively gank someone would be if he formed up with other gankers......but then he would no longer be a simple annoyance to other players.......he would be a pirate/brigand/thug or whatever you want to call it which is a viable option in an online game.

Ganking only happens in games where players can gain an unfair advantage simply by being more powerful and knowing who is weaker than you. In a well designed game this wouldnt happen.

FFA pvp was great back in the early days of mmos like UO mainly because people ACTUALLY RPED bad guys and would say like rob you incharacter or kill you because of some war etc etc.Now days you got nothing but a buncha ego driven kids! who do it too pester or annoy other for no apparent reason but too be jackasses.Take aoc for example i never seen so much grievin in a mmo since its release pure blood shed sure can be fun at times but not when you have lvl 50s gankin and killen people 20-30 lvls below them gets old and ruins the game play.

I left over a class balance issue people do it all the time.

Originally posted by Rammur

FFA pvp was great back in the early days of mmos like UO mainly because people ACTUALLY RPED bad guys and would say like rob you incharacter or kill you because of some war etc etc.Now days you got nothing but a buncha ego driven kids! who do it too pester or annoy other for no apparent reason but too be jackasses.Take aoc for example i never seen so much grievin in a mmo since its release pure blood shed sure can be fun at times but not when you have lvl 50s gankin and killen people 20-30 lvls below them gets old and ruins the game play.

Also to point out, back in the old UO, the MMO community was smaller. Severs were smaller n ppl tended to know each other a bit more. When it comes to FFA PvP ppl just stop carrying that top notch gear. So everybody is just wearing crap cause they don't wanna loose the 'good stuff'.

Personally I think a FFA PvP game should be based on skill more than anything. Armors n such should be easily attainable.

Now I fall into the catagory of 'Carebare' and the only reason I choose so is not cause I am afraid of PvP. It is because of the ganking attitude of the kids that play. They ruin any chance of fun PvP.

It's quite simple.

The non-pvpers will recruit pvpers in exchange for the best armors and weapons.

Those pvpers who resist will find themselves either forced to start crafting their own shit, or continually die until they quit in frustration.

"Carebears" will rule the game.

And if you think the devs will chase away hundreds of thousands of "carebears" to pacify the minority population of pvpers, either you think their stupid or you have one hell of an imagination.

"Carebears" unite!!

In terms of scale if pvers and pvpers were to confront each other in real life, you'd have the state of Rhode Island (pvpers) trying to attack the entire North American continent (pvers).

Might as well get used to being a niche now, pvp fanatics.

since when did carebears = crafters?

Originally posted by tvalentine

since when did carebears = crafters?

Ask the gankers above. Apparently they decided that.

    I think the hardcore players would crush the carebears......Most of the carebears are in games like WOW, EQ2, Lotro....The hardcore go for more of a challenging game that usually involves eitehr a tough death penalty or loss of items on death......The hardcore tend to be drawn to the brutal aspects of games while the carebears in general want it easier with little or no repurcussions.....In a game like WoW the carebears can compete with the hardcore but put them in a game like EQ (pvp server) or Eve and the hardcore will eat them alive.......

If a Developer of a MMO that can create a FFA-PVP enviroment that can cater to both PVE and PVPers without crying at both end.. then by all means make one and have some sort of safety net or system that can be implimented that can actually punish people for needless killing (griefing & senseless killing, camping spawn points..) if you can do that I think these people will try a FFA-PVP type game. But noone in any game should just have a easy button added to thier keyboard or be able to walk thru the game with no consequences. And for one PVERs arent the only ones that craft items for PVPers either. Some players do all aspects of the game, like myself .. I never had to depend on anyone to make my armor, items, or anything related to crafting that I cant do myself....

I play games to enjoy all apsects of the game whether the mechanics are good or bad, I like PVP...more than so every type of MMO has PVP to some degree. Learning about your build template or your class is easier to do when its tested against a live human opponent. SWG one of the former MMOs I played most of the Heroic Instances where not finished first by PVERs either .. they was completed by PVPers .. people that work together as a team to accomlish a goal. I ran with both type of players PVPErs and PVERs .. problem I had with PVERs is that 75 percent of the time they didn't know what they was doing and trying to be helpful for people that have completed those instances giving them heads up on Vent .. they wouldnt listen and the group wipes cause a couple of knuckle heads couldn't take directions and follow orders... cause in the end I don't care who you are PVE or PVP ..everyone wants to win the shiny....

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Originally posted by neonwire
Just look at real life for your inspiration! Are you safe and immune to danger in real life? Is there some invisible force which stops people from interacting with each other properly? As I am sat here typing this at work (naughty me) there is nothing stopping someone from coming into the office and attacking me is there. However if someone did then they would have to face the consequences of their actions. We didnt always live in a civilised society ya know......lots of people still dont! This can happen in a game world too.

---

You would still be dead though.

---

Of course by now its pretty obvious that the terms "carebear" and "PvPer" become irrelevant. The game has now become a simulation of real life and just as in real life these terms dont really apply.

---

The difference is - in real life - the people you call gankers would be called socipaths, and mass murders and end up dead or spending the rest of their life in prison.

In game the consequences arent the same.

So Fatalfx the question you need to answer is why would carebears want to play your game? Why would casual players want to play your game?

The FFA PvP games have tended to fail because the Gankers drive off the carebear/casual players. Unless you design your game to start small and build up (like Eve) so that you arent dependant on having X number of players to support the game, then the game fails when the numbers drop below the life support limit.

If you are looking to have WOW like numbers - never going to happen. If you are happy with Eve like numbers of players - then thats possible.

What you didnt mention is if Crusader is a single server game (Eve, Guildwars) where all the players can interact, or seperate shards/servers (WOW, AOC, Vanguard, WAR). If you have seperate servers then you face issues if there arent enough people on the server.

Originally posted by _Shadowmage

 

What you didnt mention is if Crusader is a single server game (Eve, Guildwars) where all the players can interact, or seperate shards/servers (WOW, AOC, Vanguard, WAR). If you have seperate servers then you face issues if there arent enough people on the server.

Hi Shadowmage,

Crusades will be played on a single shard server. 

What battle?  The people that don't enjoy pvp (carebears god do people know how stupid you sound saying that) won't play a game like that.

This type of pvp leads to ganking, which is what non pvpers hate.

unfortunately for gankers, no one wnats to play with them.

Blaming carebears isn't going to get anyone to make another game for you to ruin.

Originally posted by WisebutCruel

It's quite simple.

The non-pvpers will recruit pvpers in exchange for the best armors and weapons.

Those pvpers who resist will find themselves either forced to start crafting their own shit, or continually die until they quit in frustration.

"Carebears" will rule the game.

And if you think the devs will chase away hundreds of thousands of "carebears" to pacify the minority population of pvpers, either you think their stupid or you have one hell of an imagination.

"Carebears" unite!!

In terms of scale if pvers and pvpers were to confront each other in real life, you'd have the state of Rhode Island (pvpers) trying to attack the entire North American continent (pvers).

Might as well get used to being a niche now, pvp fanatics.

Actually were that the case then there would be no reason to recruit the "PvPer" at all, he becomes the gankee as he does not has the rescources nor anything else to offer the "carebear" for his product....
 

Originally posted by FatalFX

Originally posted by _Shadowmage

 

What you didnt mention is if Crusader is a single server game (Eve, Guildwars) where all the players can interact, or seperate shards/servers (WOW, AOC, Vanguard, WAR). If you have seperate servers then you face issues if there arent enough people on the server.

Hi Shadowmage,

Crusades will be played on a single shard server. 

I hate to say it, but your game wont last then. Go look at other games with separate servers (PVE, PVP, RPPVE, etc) And then look at the population of the PVP servers. These so called PVPers asking for the ultimate FFAPVP game are so full it it's beginning to drive me crazy.

When the going gets tough or there is no one to grief, those PVPers head on over to the PVE servers.

You need to force gamers to have respect for one another. How you do that I have no clue, but in my eyes the only way you can have both types of players in question to gel well would be to force the namecallers and acronym geniuses to understand that you can't have one without  the other. Currently they don't understand that. Which is why they don't have a game to call home.

Originally posted by ZDPhoenix

Originally posted by MarL

PvPers and PvEers do not depend on each other at all, actually they should be playing two different games.

I feel that way often now.

I was a PvP'er with UO, I PvP'ed in WoW and tried my hand in EQII for awhile; and found elements in each I liked. The PvE in all the games was awesome by itself, and complicated when I tried to do both (minus EQ2). Trying to mix the two caused me to have a less enjoyable time.

 

I want to see a strict PvP game come out that doesn't end up sucking liuke Fury did. For right now, I go off shooters for my PvP fix.

I want to see a WoW type of MMO that doesn't force me to Raid or PvP to get decent "heroic quality" gear.

Check out Darkfall. It's basically UO2 meets DAOC. Huge sandbox world with 6 races in 3 factions supporting both PVP and PVE, with no auto-targeting, no auto-attacks, no friendly-fire, full looting, FPS-style real-time combat.

Huge potential for both PVP and PVE, since every item in game can be player-crafted.

Carebear is a stupid word because everyone does some PVE, and stupid because PVP players whine as much if not more than PVEers.

Originally posted by javac

Originally posted by ZDPhoenix

Originally posted by MarL

PvPers and PvEers do not depend on each other at all, actually they should be playing two different games.

I feel that way often now.

I was a PvP'er with UO, I PvP'ed in WoW and tried my hand in EQII for awhile; and found elements in each I liked. The PvE in all the games was awesome by itself, and complicated when I tried to do both (minus EQ2). Trying to mix the two caused me to have a less enjoyable time.

 

I want to see a strict PvP game come out that doesn't end up sucking liuke Fury did. For right now, I go off shooters for my PvP fix.

I want to see a WoW type of MMO that doesn't force me to Raid or PvP to get decent "heroic quality" gear.

 

Check out Darkfall. It's basically UO2 meets DAOC. Huge sandbox world with 6 races in 3 factions supporting both PVP and PVE, with no auto-targeting, no auto-attacks, no friendly-fire, full looting, FPS-style real-time combat.

 

Huge potential for both PVP and PVE, since every item in game can be player-crafted.

 

Carebear is a stupid word because everyone does some PVE, and stupid because PVP players whine as much if not more than PVEers.

 

Yes, but you dont see too many pvp'ers whining that there shouldn't be any pve at all which is one of the things that gets me the most : pve'ers saying that games shouldn't have pvp at all when most pvp in current mmo's is consensual.

Originally posted by bigbeardxl

Originally posted by FatalFX

Originally posted by _Shadowmage

 

What you didnt mention is if Crusader is a single server game (Eve, Guildwars) where all the players can interact, or seperate shards/servers (WOW, AOC, Vanguard, WAR). If you have seperate servers then you face issues if there arent enough people on the server.

Hi Shadowmage,

Crusades will be played on a single shard server. 

 

I hate to say it, but your game wont last then. Go look at other games with separate servers (PVE, PVP, RPPVE, etc) And then look at the population of the PVP servers. These so called PVPers asking for the ultimate FFAPVP game are so full it it's beginning to drive me crazy.

When the going gets tough or there is no one to grief, those PVPers head on over to the PVE servers.

You need to force gamers to have respect for one another. How you do that I have no clue, but in my eyes the only way you can have both types of players in question to gel well would be to force the namecallers and acronym geniuses to understand that you can't have one without  the other. Currently they don't understand that. Which is why they don't have a game to call home.

 

 

EVE does just fine with one server .... i have no clue what you are talking about.

Originally posted by bigbeardxl

Originally posted by FatalFX

Originally posted by _Shadowmage

 

What you didnt mention is if Crusader is a single server game (Eve, Guildwars) where all the players can interact, or seperate shards/servers (WOW, AOC, Vanguard, WAR). If you have seperate servers then you face issues if there arent enough people on the server.

Hi Shadowmage,

Crusades will be played on a single shard server. 

 

I hate to say it, but your game wont last then. Go look at other games with separate servers (PVE, PVP, RPPVE, etc) And then look at the population of the PVP servers. These so called PVPers asking for the ultimate FFAPVP game are so full it it's beginning to drive me crazy.

When the going gets tough or there is no one to grief, those PVPers head on over to the PVE servers.

You need to force gamers to have respect for one another. How you do that I have no clue, but in my eyes the only way you can have both types of players in question to gel well would be to force the namecallers and acronym geniuses to understand that you can't have one without  the other. Currently they don't understand that. Which is why they don't have a game to call home.

Thankyou Bigbeard for speaking for the entire gaming community. Its so good to see that you have predicted the downfall of Crusades based on the failures of other PvE games that have been kind enough to add a little PvP server as a sidethought. In other words......

You're talking a load of complete crap!

I think FatalFX can safely ignore this unfounded naysaying. As Tvalentine has pointed out EVE is doing just fine with one single server. Why would Crusades need to have multiple servers if there is only one ruleset? I wholeheartedly support Crusade being on one server and think it can work perfectly well.

I agree though that a good system will need to be put in place that allows players to do as they choose within the boundaries or rules of the game. A player who wants to go round killing people indescriminately should be punished by the game system. For example if a player joins a faction they could "insure" themselves (or get automatic insurance) so that if another player from their own faction attacks them then the insured player would have the option of inflicting certain forms of retribution on that player. This could come in the form of:

Criminal points that upon reaching a certain level cause the ganker to be ejected from the faction and become hunted by its npc police force and its players as well as having a criminal record that other potential "employers" will be able to see.

Summon a police unit to hunt them down and kill them with extreme penalties such as destruction of items on the character or major loss of skillpoints/money etc.......oh and add criminal points on as well for good measure.

Permanently delete the gankers character from the server (just kidding).

Factions could also form alliances just like they do in EVE and the above rules could be applied to anyone attacking someone in a friendly faction too. This kind of system would encourage good relations between players and give a reason for roleplaying. It would also weed out the more childish and stupid players who just want to kill people for no reason as they would rapidly find themselves becoming hated by all the decent players and no faction would be willing to take them in with their criminal records. Then they would be forced to turn to other criminals for help......which of course they wouldnt be able to truly trust as they would keep getting shot in the back. These criminal factions would have a hard time surviving as no other decent faction would want to ally themselves with them. Basicly the game system itself would weed out and lump all the bad players together and effectively shove them off to the side where they can shoot each other in the head all day long to their hearts content. Of course they would hate it and they would complain but it wont matter because they are criminal scum so they get what they deserve. Meanwhile all the decent law abiding players can get on with playing the game properly and occasionally hunting the criminal scum for amusement
 

Lets say a game is developed and released featuring heavy PvP elements and little PvE why cry? I could understand people being upset if a game is PvE and later the developers put in PvP. Why whine if the game already had PvP from the start? I know gameplay might change but why whine about people "ganking" if people know a game is released with PvP? I don't see people whining about Shadowbane and EVE. Although the carebear brigade did invade Shadowbane for a long time whining about no quests.

I regularly whine about Eve for it's poor PvP and bad PvE. Both are substandard. 

(I also used to whine about it's unstable servers. and then marvel at them all at the same time).

Now Planetside, there was game with good PvP and no PvE.

Now, now children. I think its time for everyone here to calm down. The goes for PvP'ers and carebears alike. There is no need to get into an argument on whether or not the carebears and PvP'ers can get along. As King, I will personally ensure you all that the PvP'ers and my people will get along in a harmonious manner. I promise you my children. On the face of my father and the face of my son, I promise you from the bottom of my heart we all will GET ALONG!!!

KingCarebear

Lord of the Television

Originally posted on Allakhazam interview

Allakhazam : There has been a lot of hoopla on your community forums regarding an expanding infinite universe and the potential for a final showdown between 'Carebears vs. PvP'rs.' Could the Crusades universe make gaming history as the final playground to settle the score?

FatalFX : It has been an interesting discussion brought up on the community forum. Looking forward to chapter two, when we release spacecraft people have been discussing. You see, within 'Crusades' most everywhere outside of the Homeworld is open solar system, and that is where much of the best resources may be found and harvested for players to build Outposts, Cities, Spacefleets, and so on.

On that note, 'Carebear' players might form large guilds in order to protect their cities. We all know how much time they spend crafting. Thus, they will most likely have the best crafted items which the PvP'rs will enjoy looting (if they can) and that will force the Carebears to unite and fight, or perhaps hire the best PvP'rs to fight. Within an infinite universe setting, confrontations for territory and resources may escalate into major battles between the two player-styles. The current speculation is that PvP'rs may not survive. PvP'rs need to work with the Carebears to obtain the best weapons, planetary defenses, and spacecraft, and Carebears won't tolerate being attacked everywhere they go. Thus we have a potential Yin & Yang per say, where Carebears vs. PvP'rs could develop into a final showdown. Personally I think it is long overdue, and it could make for some interesting gameplay. But only the players may answer the question as to who would win.

The current speculation is that PvP'rs may not survive. I hope to see the final score settled.  It is long overdue.  Thank you all for your replies, thoughts and ideas regarding this topic.